Serpentine Style Draft (1 Viewer)

1 RB1 Ladainian Tomlinson, SD

2 RB2 Steven Jackson, StL

3 RB3 Larry Johnson, KC

4 RB4 Frank Gore, SF

5 RB5 Shaun Alexander, Sea

6 RB6 Joseph Addai, Ind

7 RB7 Brian Westbrook, Phi

8 RB8 Willie Parker, Pit

9 RB9 Laurence Maroney, NE

10 RB10 Rudi Johnson, Cin

11 RB11 Reggie Bush, NO

12 QB1 Peyton Manning, Ind

13 RB12 Clinton Portis, Was

14 RB13 Willis McGahee, Bal

15 WR1 Chad Johnson, Cin

16 RB14 Maurice Jones-Drew, Jac

17 RB15 Travis Henry, Den

18 WR2 Steve Smith, Car

19 RB16 Ronnie Brown, Mia

20 RB17 Cedric Benson, Chi

21 WR3 Torry Holt, StL

22 WR4 Larry Fitzgerald, Ari

23 RB18 Edgerrin James, Ari

24 WR5 Reggie Wayne, Ind

25 WR6 Marvin Harrison, Ind

26 RB19 Thomas Jones, NYJ

27 WR7 Terrell Owens, Dal

28 WR8 Roy Williams, Det

29 RB20 Marshawn Lynch, Buf

30 TE1 Antonio Gates, SD

31 RB21 Carnell Williams, TB

32 RB22 Deuce McAllister, NO

33 RB23 DeAngelo Williams, Car

34 QB2 Carson Palmer, Cin

35 WR9 Anquan Boldin, Ari

36 WR10 Andre Johnson, Hou

37 RB24 Brandon Jacobs, NYG

38 WR11 Marques Colston, NO

39 QB3 Tom Brady, NE

40 RB25 Marion Barber, Dal

41 QB4 Drew Brees, NO

42 WR12 Randy Moss, NE

43 WR13 Javon Walker, Den

44 RB26 Adrian Peterson, Min

45 WR14 T.J. Houshmandzadeh, Cin

46 WR15 Donald Driver, GB

47 WR16 Lee Evans, Buf

48 RB27 Jamal Lewis, Cle

49 WR17 Plaxico Burress, NYG

50 RB28 Kevin Jones, Det

51 QB5 Marc Bulger, StL

52 WR18 Hines Ward, Pit

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The Scientist said:

What does your draft do? Ever tried something like this?

Some voiced a concern that the top picks have an advantage every year, and I would say they do stand a slightly better chance IMO. The bottom line is you still have to be able to draft a good team after that #1 pick. Where I do feel they have the biggest advantage is at the 2nd round-3rd round turn. First I will tell you why they have an advantage and then I will give you one solution to that problem which I found in a recently published FF magazine.

Advantage to having the top few selections:

We will compare two teams, Team A (the #1 overall pick) and Team B (the #12 overall pick). The goal of every draft should be to get as many players in the Top 50 as possible. In our 12 team league Team A not only gets the #1 overall stud best player, they also get to choose two players in the top 25. This gives them ideally players ranked #1, #24, and #25 in the first three rounds. Team B drafting #12 overall gets the #12, #13, and #36 in the first 3 rounds. IMO this puts Team B at a disadvantage. Team B must rely on a core (Top three picks) that is not as strong as Team A and they have to draft well in the later rounds or they do not stand a chance. I have picked in the later area's of round #1 for three or four years now and I can speak from experience why I say it is a lot harder to draft out of those slots.

The following is a ADP (average draft position) list for this year.

1 RB1 Ladainian Tomlinson, SD

2 RB2 Steven Jackson, StL

3 RB3 Larry Johnson, KC

4 RB4 Frank Gore, SF

5 RB5 Shaun Alexander, Sea

6 RB6 Joseph Addai, Ind

7 RB7 Brian Westbrook, Phi

8 RB8 Willie Parker, Pit

9 RB9 Laurence Maroney, NE

10 RB10 Rudi Johnson, Cin

11 RB11 Reggie Bush, NO

12 QB1 Peyton Manning, Ind

13 RB12 Clinton Portis, Was

14 RB13 Willis McGahee, Bal

15 WR1 Chad Johnson, Cin

16 RB14 Maurice Jones-Drew, Jac

17 RB15 Travis Henry, Den

18 WR2 Steve Smith, Car

19 RB16 Ronnie Brown, Mia

20 RB17 Cedric Benson, Chi

21 WR3 Torry Holt, StL

22 WR4 Larry Fitzgerald, Ari

23 RB18 Edgerrin James, Ari

24 WR5 Reggie Wayne, Ind

25 WR6 Marvin Harrison, Ind

26 RB19 Thomas Jones, NYJ

27 WR7 Terrell Owens, Dal

28 WR8 Roy Williams, Det

29 RB20 Marshawn Lynch, Buf

30 TE1 Antonio Gates, SD

31 RB21 Carnell Williams, TB

32 RB22 Deuce McAllister, NO

33 RB23 DeAngelo Williams, Car

34 QB2 Carson Palmer, Cin

35 WR9 Anquan Boldin, Ari

36 WR10 Andre Johnson, Hou

37 RB24 Brandon Jacobs, NYG

38 WR11 Marques Colston, NO

39 QB3 Tom Brady, NE

40 RB25 Marion Barber, Dal

41 QB4 Drew Brees, NO

42 WR12 Randy Moss, NE

43 WR13 Javon Walker, Den

44 RB26 Adrian Peterson, Min

45 WR14 T.J. Houshmandzadeh, Cin

46 WR15 Donald Driver, GB

47 WR16 Lee Evans, Buf

48 RB27 Jamal Lewis, Cle

49 WR17 Plaxico Burress, NYG

50 RB28 Kevin Jones, Det

51 QB5 Marc Bulger, StL

52 WR18 Hines Ward, Pit

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According to this list Team A (If we were just picking from this list) would have LT, Reggie Wayne, and Marvin Harrison and Team B would get Peyton Manning, Clinton Portis, and Andre Johnson. Team A has the stronger core of his team, and will have a better chance at making a playoff run. If we extend the draft out to the first 5 rounds. Team A gets, #1, #24, #25, # 48 and #49 (5 players in the top 50 and the #1 player overral) Team B gets #12, #13, #36, #37, #60 (only 4 players ranked in the top 50) THAT SUCKS!!

I think we would all agree we would not like the #12 pick because your team is not as solid.

How can we fix this??

The article I read suggested the first three rounds go as follows:

Round 1: 1-12

Round 2: 12-1

Round 3: 12-1

Round 4: 1-12 (Snake the rest of the way)

If this were the case Team A gets pick #1, #24, #36, #37, #60 and Team B gets #12, #13, #25, #48, #49. Yes I do see that Team B gets three in the Top 25 and Team A gets 2, but the player Team A gets at #1 overall is a true stud, and will more than likely finish Top 3 overall where the players selected at #12 and #13 will more than likely only have one finish top 10.

If this was the case Team A would look like: LT, Reggie Wayne, Andre Johnson and Team B would have Manning, Portis, Harrison. I know these are not the players you would necessarily choose at those slots but this is just to give you and example.

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The Scientist said:

What does your draft do? Ever tried something like this?Some voiced a concern that the top picks have an advantage every year, and I would say they do stand a slightly better chance IMO.

Click to expand...

The Scientist said:

What does your draft do? Ever tried something like this?

Some voiced a concern that the top picks have an advantage every year, and I would say they do stand a slightly better chance IMO. The bottom line is you still have to be able to draft a good team after that #1 pick. Where I do feel they have the biggest advantage is at the 2nd round-3rd round turn. First I will tell you why they have an advantage and then I will give you one solution to that problem which I found in a recently published FF magazine.

Advantage to having the top few selections:

We will compare two teams, Team A (the #1 overall pick) and Team B (the #12 overall pick). The goal of every draft should be to get as many players in the Top 50 as possible. In our 12 team league Team A not only gets the #1 overall stud best player, they also get to choose two players in the top 25. This gives them ideally players ranked #1, #24, and #25 in the first three rounds. Team B drafting #12 overall gets the #12, #13, and #36 in the first 3 rounds. IMO this puts Team B at a disadvantage. Team B must rely on a core (Top three picks) that is not as strong as Team A and they have to draft well in the later rounds or they do not stand a chance. I have picked in the later area's of round #1 for three or four years now and I can speak from experience why I say it is a lot harder to draft out of those slots.

The following is a ADP (average draft position) list for this year.

1 RB1 Ladainian Tomlinson, SD

2 RB2 Steven Jackson, StL

3 RB3 Larry Johnson, KC

4 RB4 Frank Gore, SF

5 RB5 Shaun Alexander, Sea

6 RB6 Joseph Addai, Ind

7 RB7 Brian Westbrook, Phi

8 RB8 Willie Parker, Pit

9 RB9 Laurence Maroney, NE

10 RB10 Rudi Johnson, Cin

11 RB11 Reggie Bush, NO

12 QB1 Peyton Manning, Ind

13 RB12 Clinton Portis, Was

14 RB13 Willis McGahee, Bal

15 WR1 Chad Johnson, Cin

16 RB14 Maurice Jones-Drew, Jac

17 RB15 Travis Henry, Den

18 WR2 Steve Smith, Car

19 RB16 Ronnie Brown, Mia

20 RB17 Cedric Benson, Chi

21 WR3 Torry Holt, StL

22 WR4 Larry Fitzgerald, Ari

23 RB18 Edgerrin James, Ari

24 WR5 Reggie Wayne, Ind

25 WR6 Marvin Harrison, Ind

26 RB19 Thomas Jones, NYJ

27 WR7 Terrell Owens, Dal

28 WR8 Roy Williams, Det

29 RB20 Marshawn Lynch, Buf

30 TE1 Antonio Gates, SD

31 RB21 Carnell Williams, TB

32 RB22 Deuce McAllister, NO

33 RB23 DeAngelo Williams, Car

34 QB2 Carson Palmer, Cin

35 WR9 Anquan Boldin, Ari

36 WR10 Andre Johnson, Hou

37 RB24 Brandon Jacobs, NYG

38 WR11 Marques Colston, NO

39 QB3 Tom Brady, NE

40 RB25 Marion Barber, Dal

41 QB4 Drew Brees, NO

42 WR12 Randy Moss, NE

43 WR13 Javon Walker, Den

44 RB26 Adrian Peterson, Min

45 WR14 T.J. Houshmandzadeh, Cin

46 WR15 Donald Driver, GB

47 WR16 Lee Evans, Buf

48 RB27 Jamal Lewis, Cle

49 WR17 Plaxico Burress, NYG

50 RB28 Kevin Jones, Det

51 QB5 Marc Bulger, StL

52 WR18 Hines Ward, Pit

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According to this list Team A (If we were just picking from this list) would have LT, Reggie Wayne, and Marvin Harrison and Team B would get Peyton Manning, Clinton Portis, and Andre Johnson. Team A has the stronger core of his team, and will have a better chance at making a playoff run. If we extend the draft out to the first 5 rounds. Team A gets, #1, #24, #25, # 48 and #49 (5 players in the top 50 and the #1 player overral) Team B gets #12, #13, #36, #37, #60 (only 4 players ranked in the top 50) THAT SUCKS!!

I think we would all agree we would not like the #12 pick because your team is not as solid.

How can we fix this??

The article I read suggested the first three rounds go as follows:

Round 1: 1-12

Round 2: 12-1

Round 3: 12-1

Round 4: 1-12 (Snake the rest of the way)

If this were the case Team A gets pick #1, #24, #36, #37, #60 and Team B gets #12, #13, #25, #48, #49. Yes I do see that Team B gets three in the Top 25 and Team A gets 2, but the player Team A gets at #1 overall is a true stud, and will more than likely finish Top 3 overall where the players selected at #12 and #13 will more than likely only have one finish top 10.

If this was the case Team A would look like: LT, Reggie Wayne, Andre Johnson and Team B would have Manning, Portis, Harrison. I know these are not the players you would necessarily choose at those slots but this is just to give you and example.

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For 12 team leagues. Based on a VBD (value based drafting system). Through 12 rounds.

Using the end picks of 2 and 11 to determine points. Qb, Rb, Wr, Te, K only.

1) Standard serpentine draft for twelve rounds

Pick #2 is 5.1% higher then pick #11. (303 points)

2) Standard serpentine draft for 6 rounds, then #12 team goes first in each of the remaining 6 rounds.

Pick #2 is 3.8% higher then pick #11. (228 points)

3) Serpentine for 2 rounds. (1-12, 12-1). Then reverse next two rounds (12-1, 1-12). Repeat.

Pick #2 is 2.8% higher then pick #11. (167 points)

4) Serpentine first two rounds. (1-12, 12-1). Then reverse serp remaining, (12,1,12,1,12,1...)

Pick #2 is 2.0% higher then pick #11. (121 points)

And now for the BANZAI method.

5) Standard Serpentine draft. Except reverse the 3rd round. Everything else normal.

Pick #2 is 0.02% higher then pick #11. (1 point)

Thanks to whoisjohngalt for the number crunching.

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Captain Hook said:

3RR - or Third Round Reversal which is the orignal poster's question will be the draft order for the NFFC (bright banner above right) this year.

As another poster suggested, auction drafts are really the best because everyone has control of their own fortunes. Now I know many leagues who don't want to take the extra time to do a full auction draft, so here is a compromise used by a couple of leagues that I used to play in before I moved.

Each team has $100 to bid for their first four players.

(Means max they could bid on any one player would be $97 - so they have $1 each for their other three players) If there is a tie (could probably only happen on LT early, you would have to flip a coin)

After each team has their four auctioned players, the draft goes back to a serpentine draft (positions decided in advance by any of a number of methods)

This is also a good transition for leagues used to a straight draft who don't feel entirely comfortable moving to a complete auction without a trial.

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Captain Hook said:

3RR - or Third Round Reversal which is the orignal poster's question will be the draft order for the NFFC (bright banner above right) this year.As another poster suggested, auction drafts are really the best because everyone has control of their own fortunes. Now I know many leagues who don't want to take the extra time to do a full auction draft, so here is a compromise used by a couple of leagues that I used to play in before I moved.Each team has $100 to bid for their first four players.(Means max they could bid on any one player would be $97 - so they have $1 each for their other three players) If there is a tie (could probably only happen on LT early, you would have to flip a coin)After each team has their four auctioned players, the draft goes back to a serpentine draft (positions decided in advance by any of a number of methods)This is also a good transition for leagues used to a straight draft who don't feel entirely comfortable moving to a complete auction without a trial.

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BigRed said:

The Scientist said:

What does your draft do? Ever tried something like this?Some voiced a concern that the top picks have an advantage every year, and I would say they do stand a slightly better chance IMO.

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I would disagree.But you're right; this style is out of date IMO. Auction is the way to go...

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Wheezer34 said:

You lost me when you started looking at an anlysis of teams looking at only the first 3 or 5 rounds (an ODD amount of rounds). If this is the case, why not just anylze Round 1? Fair analysis? Definately not.IMO, to properly analyze a serpentine draft you need to look at an EVEN amount of early rounds. Looking at Draft Position 1 and 12 only, does this look like a fair way to anlyze?Team 1 - #1, #24, #25Team 2 - #12, #13, # 36or is this a better analysis?Team 1 - #1, #24, #25, #48Team 2 - #12, #13, # 36, #37 Just my

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Wheezer34 said:

You lost me when you started looking at an anlysis of teams looking at only the first 3 or 5 rounds (an ODD amount of rounds). If this is the case, why not just anylze Round 1? Fair analysis? Definately not.IMO, to properly analyze a serpentine draft you need to look at an EVEN amount of early rounds. Looking at Draft Position 1 and 12 only, does this look like a fair way to anlyze?Team 1 - #1, #24, #25Team 2 - #12, #13, # 36or is this a better analysis?Team 1 - #1, #24, #25, #48Team 2 - #12, #13, # 36, #37 Just my

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radballs said:

Wheezer34 said:

You lost me when you started looking at an anlysis of teams looking at only the first 3 or 5 rounds (an ODD amount of rounds). If this is the case, why not just anylze Round 1? Fair analysis? Definately not.IMO, to properly analyze a serpentine draft you need to look at an EVEN amount of early rounds. Looking at Draft Position 1 and 12 only, does this look like a fair way to anlyze?Team 1 - #1, #24, #25Team 2 - #12, #13, # 36or is this a better analysis?Team 1 - #1, #24, #25, #48Team 2 - #12, #13, # 36, #37 Just my

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Exactly, I wasn't even getting the point using only through odd rounds. There still is an advantage but stacking the odds in your favor in that way to make your point doesn't make any sense either.

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BigSteelThrill said:

radballs said:

Wheezer34 said:

You lost me when you started looking at an anlysis of teams looking at only the first 3 or 5 rounds (an ODD amount of rounds). If this is the case, why not just anylze Round 1? Fair analysis? Definately not.IMO, to properly analyze a serpentine draft you need to look at an EVEN amount of early rounds. Looking at Draft Position 1 and 12 only, does this look like a fair way to anlyze?Team 1 - #1, #24, #25Team 2 - #12, #13, # 36or is this a better analysis?Team 1 - #1, #24, #25, #48Team 2 - #12, #13, # 36, #37 Just my

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Exactly, I wasn't even getting the point using only through odd rounds. There still is an advantage but stacking the odds in your favor in that way to make your point doesn't make any sense either.

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Take it through an even round and through round 12 and it persists.Its round 1 and the difference between these selections that makes all the difference.

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Dirty Weasel said:

If you're on this site this time of the year, you are probably a shark in your league. Some people just take FF more seriosuly than others. I visit my MFL keeper site about once a day right now, and 7 of the 12 owners haven't even been to the site since the season ended last year. Those 7 no-shows make up 6 of the first 7 picks in our draft. Creating the most even draft you can only counts when the owners are all active.

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cstu said:

IMO, reverse serpentine (flipping order every two rounds) is the best solution. It's not perfect, but regular serpentine drafts gives too much advantage to the teams with the top picks.

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renesauz said:

What I've seen is that in a regular neighborhood beer league, it doesn't matter. The more serious and educated owners rise to the top no matter what, regardless of draft position. IN more competitive leagues where all of the owners are "sharks" armed with research and knowledge, the higher draft picks have a very real advantage which is statiscally proven with the WCOFF stats. BUT>>..the best owners STILL remain competitive regardless of draft position.IN big money leagues, I like the altered draft order. In local beer leagues, I couldn't care less.

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belljr said:

I would love to convert my league into an Auction league. This is our 14th or 15h year of us going. The same base 8 guys have been in it from the beginning. Over the years we expanded to 12 and had to fill for a couple guys but I'd say the majority have been in it 10+. I think it would be tough to convince them.But we may be way outdated or dumb but we've done a straight 1-12 draft every year and we are only allowed 1 franchise player.

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scothawk said:

Can you draft luck?

Whilst to a certain degree everybody makes their own luck in life (in fantasy ball you can influence the odds, thats all), nobody ever won anything without certain intagibles falling into a nice line.

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Captain Hook said:

belljr said:

I would love to convert my league into an Auction league. This is our 14th or 15h year of us going. The same base 8 guys have been in it from the beginning. Over the years we expanded to 12 and had to fill for a couple guys but I'd say the majority have been in it 10+. I think it would be tough to convince them.But we may be way outdated or dumb but we've done a straight 1-12 draft every year and we are only allowed 1 franchise player.

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I don't think your league is either outdated or dumb - as a keeper league, even with only one franchise player, you have taken the inequity out of first round draft positions. Presumably you use (or should consider) draft positions based on the previous year so those teams out of the playoffs have better draft positions this year with the SB winner having the 12th pick.This method is really for redraft leagues.

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Family Matters said:

In reality this discussion is handicapping to try make it fair for all. But that's an impossible objective. You can win a league from any draft position.

Instead of finding ways to get over on the better players why not just step up to the challenge.

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Yes, that must be it. After 22 years and hundreds of leagues.... the problem is a lack of bravado and unwillingness to "step up to the challenge".

BigSteelThrill said:

Family Matters said:

In reality this discussion is handicapping to try make it fair for all. But that's an impossible objective. You can win a league from any draft position.

Instead of finding ways to get over on the better players why not just step up to the challenge.

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Yes, that must be it. After 22 years and hundreds of leagues.... the problem is a lack of bravado and unwillingness to "step up to the challenge". And it is not impossible. Or did you miss the Banzai method showing 1 point difference between teams #2 and #11 after 12 rounds.

Noone will have a noticeable advantage and all you must do is reverse 1 single round - the 3rd. Thats it. Game on.

Sounds more like an issue of stubborness, ignorance or blindess.

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Family Matters said:

BigSteelThrill said:

Family Matters said:

In reality this discussion is handicapping to try make it fair for all. But that's an impossible objective. You can win a league from any draft position.

Instead of finding ways to get over on the better players why not just step up to the challenge.

Click to expand...

Yes, that must be it. After 22 years and hundreds of leagues.... the problem is a lack of bravado and unwillingness to "step up to the challenge". And it is not impossible. Or did you miss the Banzai method showing 1 point difference between teams #2 and #11 after 12 rounds.

Noone will have a noticeable advantage and all you must do is reverse 1 single round - the 3rd. Thats it. Game on.

Sounds more like an issue of stubborness, ignorance or blindess.

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A little testy are we? I could really care less how a league drafts. I would have a problem with drafting this way. I just don't see it as a problem (or excuse) as some do. We're all on a level field so I'm good. My point on this is that there is no perfect scenario. We all draft differently and few draft the line on VBD. What we project on average and what happens after the drafts rarely look the same. That's why we play the game. The guy drafting first only gets an advantage if he gets his other picks right. You have to remember that you field 10 or more players that total your score. Rarely does the guy picking first win the draft. In leagues I've been in the winners come from all different positions including last. By trying to manipulate the outcome of the draft by making this type change will not yield results much differently. The best players will likely come out on top as before. Better players equal better outcomes. It's pretty simple really. Unless of course it's like you said, ignorance. You may be right.

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