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Peyton Manning (1 Viewer)

Tau837

Tau837

Footballguy
Apologies if this is a Honda, but I haven't seen any posts like this, at least not for a long time. I tried the Search function but couldn't find any similar posts.

I'm interested in discussing Manning's legacy. The Sports Illustrated preview had an article about him that included this:

The question going forward just might be, Could he become the best quarterback who ever played? He's durable, having missed one play because of injury in nine seasons. At 31 he's six very good seasons away from the alltime records for passing yards and touchdowns... But given the NFL championships on the resumes of Johnny Unitas, Otto Graham, and Joe Montana--not to mention Brady, who could add to his three--Manning would probably have to win another Super Bowl or two to be considered the best. Unless he puts his numbers out of sight.
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So let's get the numbers out of the way.

Manning has 37,874 passing yards. Barring injury, he should finish this season 9th all time, behind Marino, Favre, Elway, Moon, Tarkenton, Testaverde, Bledsoe, and Fouts. He is currently 23,487 yards behind Marino. That is still a substantial gap. Manning has averaged 4176 passing yards per season in his career. If he maintains that pace, he'll need five more seasons after this season to claim the mark. If his pace slips, maybe he'll need another season beyond that. Note I'm assuming Favre doesn't advance much, if at all, beyond Marino's mark.

Manning has 278 passing TDs. With 23 more, he will be in 4th place all time, behind only Marino, Favre, and Tarkenton. Depending on how far Favre advances beyond Marino, Manning would stand a very good chance to become the all time leader in four more seasons after this season.

His career QB rating is 94.6, which is 2nd all time to Steve Young. I assume it is fairly unlikely that he can elevate it above Young, and it is possible it could ultimately drop below Kurt Warner, who is in third place.

Manning is 10th in all time completions, but "only" 13th in all time passing attempts.

Manning holds the single season records for passing TDs and QB rating.

Manning holds the record for both most career seasons with 4000 passing yards and most consecutive seasons with 4000 passing yards.

Manning's consecutive starts streak is second only to Favre's for QBs in NFL history. It is certainly possible he could play long enough to pass Favre, though that is a long way off and would obviously require sustained durability.

In 9 seasons, Manning has 2 MVP awards (2003 & 2004), an NFL Man of the Year award (2005), and a Super Bowl MVP award (2007), has been to 7 Pro Bowls, and has been selected All Pro 6 times.

OK, so with all that, he is likely to at least be in the conversation for the best QB ever from a statistical standpoint when his career is over. What else does he need? More awards, particularly MVPs, Super Bowl MVPs, and All Pro selections, would certainly help. But I assume it comes down to Super Bowls.

How many more does he need to be considered the best QB of all time? If he ends up with just the one Super Bowl win he got last year, but continues his stellar play for several more years, could he be considered the best ever? I think not. I think Montana would still be held in higher regard. I'm sure at this point some Brady supporters might chime in and say he would also be ranked higher. I think that is more subjective, depending on how Brady's statistical performance goes throughout the rest of his career. And, frankly, I find it very hard to compare modern era QBs to older QBs like Unitas, Graham, and Baugh... I think with just the one Super Bowl win, it remains a gray area in comparing Manning to the old greats.

I assume we could all agree that if he were to finish with 4 or more Super Bowl wins, as well as carrying his superlative statistical performance forward, that he would arguably be the best ever.

So where is the line? Is it 2? 3? Or does he have to get to 4?

 
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I think that 20 years after he is retired, the consensus will be that he was the best to ever play the game. He is a machine. As far as needing all of the records above to be considered the best ever, I don't agree. Montana doesn't own a lot of those yardage or TD records, but because he won the SB's, most people would probably say he was a better QB than Marino, who didn't win any.

Manning is so efficient and methodical that he has spoiled a lot of people, especially those under the age of about 25 IMO. They have come to expect it, and it isn't that special to them. Even though I'm not what you would call a Colts fan, I still watch many of their games because their offense is so fascinating, and Manning is amazing to watch.

 
Of the 2000s. To many rule changes to rate him against other QBs not playing in their prime in the same seasons under the same rules.

 
Even without another Super Bowl win, I'd be comfortable saying he's the greatest ever with another 4 - 5 years at his current pace. Additional SBs could put him far enough ahead of everyone else that it couldn't be reasonably disputed (kinda like Jerry Rice).

 
I still think Montana is the best QB of all time. Being the best of all time is what you do when the chips are down. Manning is probably the most accomplished regular season QB, but what has he done when it counts the most?

Manning has folded in the playoffs numerous times. He's never really "battled" when it's one and done. In playoffs losses, he's blamed his teammates(O-line). He's blamed the refs(pre 5-yard touch rule). And for me, that forever tarnishes his accomplishments. The guy could pass for 100,000 yards and 500 TDs and he still would not be the best. Just like Marino is not the best, nor was he ever.

 
In this system I wrote about last year, Young-Montana-Marino topped the list at 1-2-3. Manning was 7th, but after his 2006 season, he's vaulted to 4th place. If he has a slightly better year than last, he will end up ranked 1st after this season (of course, with some bad years, he could fall out of first place). Either way, I'd say there's no chance Manning isn't first after the 2008 season, barring injury to him, Harrison and Wayne.

 
I agree, Manning is going to have to show some "Montana Magic" in some big moments to really go down as the greatest. 4th down, last play of the game, need a TD, I'd go with Montana any day.

 
He's right in the conversation...and the fact he seems to be getting better only adds to his chances. Last year I really think he took his game to another level as far as being a Field General and now he looks almost unstoppable. He definetly needs at least one more championship though. That really takes away any ammo potential detractors may have. Yet, even if he doesn't he's still in the mix for this title.

One thing I would like to see is Manning playing with average skill players. Elway took a team to multiple Super Bowls in that situation and both Brady and Montana won Super Bowls in that scenario. By no means am I knocking Manning (because he's not the GM and should not aplogize for playing with high quality players) but he has definetly had the luxury of being surrounded by first round, first rate skill players for most of his career in guys like Harrison, Wayne, Clark, Edge and now Addai and possibly Gonzalez. By no means do I think they are responsible for his success because it's very obvious Manning is a special talent. Yet, I would love to see if Manning could carry an offense to a Super Bowl appearance playing with ordinary talent. If he could do that his resume would almost be bulletproof.

 
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kensat30 said:
I still think Montana is the best QB of all time. Being the best of all time is what you do when the chips are down. Manning is probably the most accomplished regular season QB, but what has he done when it counts the most?Manning has folded in the playoffs numerous times. He's never really "battled" when it's one and done. In playoffs losses, he's blamed his teammates(O-line). He's blamed the refs(pre 5-yard touch rule). And for me, that forever tarnishes his accomplishments. The guy could pass for 100,000 yards and 500 TDs and he still would not be the best. Just like Marino is not the best, nor was he ever.
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Has everyone already forgotten last year's AFC Championship Game? Manning led the biggest comeback in conference championship game history!!! That was as great a quarterbacking performance as I've ever seen in one of the all-time greatest games ever played.
 
Fisrt off, everyone who is envolved with football will say that it is the ultimate team sport. How could you possibly say Joe Montana is the best ever? Bill Walsh explained in interviews that Joe wasn't that great, it was hard work within a system that accomplished those titles. He led a two-minute drill against the Bengals and he's annointed best-ever? If Tim Krumrie doesn't get hurt, do the Niners win?

How come no one has mentioned John Elway? If you want to talk about when the chips are down, look no further. Five SBs, two wins. And it took a running game to get him those.

If you want to debate best ever, fine. You can't base it on titles. Brady, Montana, and Bradshaw had top quality defenses.

I'm getting long-winded here, but if Manning continues at his current pace, there is not doubt he'll be considered the best.

 
Of course not. No link. I know it's tough to back it up, but after he died, they showed old interviews about the west-coast offense and he mentioned how the system is what was most important. Guess I shouldn't have made the comment Montana wasn't that good, however, Walsh's emphasis was on how the player worked within the system. I'll be surre to back up my arguments from now on.

 
He's hands down the best I have ever seen (that includes Marino, Favre, Young, Aikman, Brady), but I started watching football when I was young in the late 80s ...

 
kensat30 said:
I still think Montana is the best QB of all time. Being the best of all time is what you do when the chips are down. Manning is probably the most accomplished regular season QB, but what has he done when it counts the most?Manning has folded in the playoffs numerous times. He's never really "battled" when it's one and done. In playoffs losses, he's blamed his teammates(O-line). He's blamed the refs(pre 5-yard touch rule). And for me, that forever tarnishes his accomplishments. The guy could pass for 100,000 yards and 500 TDs and he still would not be the best. Just like Marino is not the best, nor was he ever.
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:hot: Worst, most inacurrate post I've read since . . . I'd have to think about that. At least since last season.He's never blamed his teammates (listen again to his post-Pittsburgh-loss comments and listen like you're not a Manning hater).He's never blamed the refs. (The refs did screw the Colts in that AFC championship game, but Manning never said a word.)You can dislike him out of jealousy if that's what you want to do, but please don't spread lies.
 
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When QBs like Trent Dilfer can win a Super Bowl, the argument that a QB has to win or get to a Super Bowl to be considered in the group of the very best has very little credibility in my opinion.

It's not even about the number of TDs or yds. If you watch all the little things he does, how he sets things up, no doubt he has to be considered in the same group as the greatest of all time.

Absolutely no doubt in my mind there is nobody close to Manning right now, or in the last 10 years. I can't even except the Tom Brady argument. Brady is a very very good QB, that is not the discussion. The Patriot SB teams also had a ton more talent across the board on those teams vs the Colts. The Colts had a few players, QB, a RB and 2WRs better, but that was it. NE won because they had a better team, not the best QB. Tom Brady is a distant 2nd place. There is too much emphasis placed on the Super Bowl for a player to be judged. If Manning were on those Pats teams, I think they would have gone undefeated in at least 2 of those years.

Anyways, a topic for the ages. I am sure the opinions will keep rolling.

 
As long as he plays half his games at room temperature with no threat of elements I can't consider him the greatest of all time.

Montana,Young,Brady,Favre are all better than him. He's still pretty good though.

 
The Man with the Plan said:
As long as he plays half his games at room temperature with no threat of elements I can't consider him the greatest of all time.Montana,Young,Brady,Favre are all better than him. He's still pretty good though.
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Yeah, there was no threat from that rain strom in the Super Bowl :towelwave: He also whipped Denver in a snow storm a couple years ago. While I would rank him below Montana and Young (for now), no way would I rank Favre and Brady over Manning, and certainly not when he's finished playing.
 
MarshallRob said:
kensat30 said:
I still think Montana is the best QB of all time. Being the best of all time is what you do when the chips are down. Manning is probably the most accomplished regular season QB, but what has he done when it counts the most?Manning has folded in the playoffs numerous times. He's never really "battled" when it's one and done. In playoffs losses, he's blamed his teammates(O-line). He's blamed the refs(pre 5-yard touch rule). And for me, that forever tarnishes his accomplishments. The guy could pass for 100,000 yards and 500 TDs and he still would not be the best. Just like Marino is not the best, nor was he ever.
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Has everyone already forgotten last year's AFC Championship Game? Manning led the biggest comeback in conference championship game history!!! That was as great a quarterbacking performance as I've ever seen in one of the all-time greatest games ever played.
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Manning haters would rather not think about that one, lol.
 
If Manning continues his pace, he'll be right up there with Montana and Favre. As good as his defense is, Manning should win at least one more SB, maybe more.

 
Just Win Baby said:
Apologies if this is a Honda, but I haven't seen any posts like this, at least not for a long time. I tried the Search function but couldn't find any similar posts.

I'm interested in discussing Manning's legacy. The Sports Illustrated preview had an article about him that included this:

The question going forward just might be, Could he become the best quarterback who ever played? He's durable, having missed one play because of injury in nine seasons. At 31 he's six very good seasons away from the alltime records for passing yards and touchdowns... But given the NFL championships on the resumes of Johnny Unitas, Otto Graham, and Joe Montana--not to mention Brady, who could add to his three--Manning would probably have to win another Super Bowl or two to be considered the best. Unless he puts his numbers out of sight.
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So let's get the numbers out of the way.Manning has 37,874 passing yards. Barring injury, he should finish this season 9th all time, behind Marino, Favre, Elway, Moon, Tarkenton, Testaverde, Bledsoe, and Fouts. He is currently 23,487 yards behind Marino. That is still a substantial gap. Manning has averaged 4176 passing yards per season in his career. If he maintains that pace, he'll need five more seasons after this season to claim the mark. If his pace slips, maybe he'll need another season beyond that. Note I'm assuming Favre doesn't advance much, if at all, beyond Marino's mark.

Manning has 278 passing TDs. With 23 more, he will be in 4th place all time, behind only Marino, Favre, and Tarkenton. Depending on how far Favre advances beyond Marino, Manning would stand a very good chance to become the all time leader in four more seasons after this season.

His career QB rating is 94.6, which is 2nd all time to Steve Young. I assume it is fairly unlikely that he can elevate it above Young, and it is possible it could ultimately drop below Kurt Warner, who is in third place.

Manning is 10th in all time completions, but "only" 13th in all time passing attempts.

Manning holds the single season records for passing TDs and QB rating.

Manning holds the record for both most career seasons with 4000 passing yards and most consecutive seasons with 4000 passing yards.

Manning's consecutive starts streak is second only to Favre's for QBs in NFL history. It is certainly possible he could play long enough to pass Favre, though that is a long way off and would obviously require sustained durability.

In 9 seasons, Manning has 2 MVP awards (2003 & 2004), an NFL Man of the Year award (2005), and a Super Bowl MVP award (2007), has been to 7 Pro Bowls, and has been selected All Pro 6 times.

OK, so with all that, he is likely to at least be in the conversation for the best QB ever from a statistical standpoint when his career is over. What else does he need? More awards, particularly MVPs, Super Bowl MVPs, and All Pro selections, would certainly help. But I assume it comes down to Super Bowls.

How many more does he need to be considered the best QB of all time? If he ends up with just the one Super Bowl win he got last year, but continues his stellar play for several more years, could he be considered the best ever? I think not. I think Montana would still be held in higher regard. I'm sure at this point some Brady supporters might chime in and say he would also be ranked higher. I think that is more subjective, depending on how Brady's statistical performance goes throughout the rest of his career. And, frankly, I find it very hard to compare modern era QBs to older QBs like Unitas, Graham, and Baugh... I think with just the one Super Bowl win, it remains a gray area in comparing Manning to the old greats.

I assume we could all agree that if he were to finish with 4 or more Super Bowl wins, as well as carrying his superlative statistical performance forward, that he would arguably be the best ever.

So where is the line? Is it 2? 3? Or does he have to get to 4?

:)
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WAAAAYYYY too much weight is put into regular season statistics. I put far more weight into playoff statistics. What the QB does against a higher level of competition. You could look at it as the regular season is playing in AAA and then the playoffs is when they are in the major leagues. When it comes to playoff production, no-one comes close to what Joe Montana did. Montana put up unearthly numbers in the playoffs.

Joe Montana playoffs: 463/732 5772 yards, 45 TDs, 21 INTs.

Let's put this into perspective. If a QB throws twice as many TDs as INTs in the regular season in a long and successful NFL career, you are talking about a hall of fame QB. Joe Montana threw MORE than twice as many TDs than INTs --- IN THE PLAYOFFS. Against the top teams in his era. Its insane. Montana deserves his own wing in the hall.

Manning has done very well in the regular season. His numbers in the playoffs aren't bad. 290/475, 3495 yards, 18 TDs, 15 TDs. Those are respectable numbers. But they are DWARFED by Montana.

 
The Man with the Plan said:
As long as he plays half his games at room temperature with no threat of elements I can't consider him the greatest of all time.Montana,Young,Brady,Favre are all better than him. He's still pretty good though.
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The O.P. is asking if he will be considered the best ever, not the greatest.I say yes with no problem. He doesn't have to win any more Super Bowls, he just has to keep putting up the stats. It hasn't been his fault that the Indianapolis defense has failed to hold their opponent to fewer points than the offense has scored. Don't have to be the greatest to be the best.
 
He already is the greatest of all time. I think he is the most dominant player at his position (or any other) of all time.

If I had to win one game, and I could choose any player of all time to lead my team, it would be Peyton Manning, without hesitation.

 
Manning is the most knowledgeable and talented player ever to play the position. He may not match Farve's for toughness or have quite the competitiveness of Montana or Elway, but if I was gonna choose a QB to run my offense for the whole game, I would choose Manning. He is just a machine. Manning's biggest weakness is he is non threat to run.

 
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kensat30 said:
I still think Montana is the best QB of all time. Being the best of all time is what you do when the chips are down. Manning is probably the most accomplished regular season QB, but what has he done when it counts the most?Manning has folded in the playoffs numerous times. He's never really "battled" when it's one and done. In playoffs losses, he's blamed his teammates(O-line). He's blamed the refs(pre 5-yard touch rule). And for me, that forever tarnishes his accomplishments. The guy could pass for 100,000 yards and 500 TDs and he still would not be the best. Just like Marino is not the best, nor was he ever.
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:popcorn: And its not that close....If you ever watched Montana you just knew he wasnt going to fail in the final drives... Every ball was perfect and he was at his very best when the stakes were the highest... That is greatness if you ask me! Not putting up huge stats in the regular season against weak teams... Coming up big at the biggest times makes you great!!!
 
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nsundahl said:
Fisrt off, everyone who is envolved with football will say that it is the ultimate team sport. How could you possibly say Joe Montana is the best ever? Bill Walsh explained in interviews that Joe wasn't that great, it was hard work within a system that accomplished those titles. He led a two-minute drill against the Bengals and he's annointed best-ever? If Tim Krumrie doesn't get hurt, do the Niners win? How come no one has mentioned John Elway? If you want to talk about when the chips are down, look no further. Five SBs, two wins. And it took a running game to get him those. If you want to debate best ever, fine. You can't base it on titles. Brady, Montana, and Bradshaw had top quality defenses. I'm getting long-winded here, but if Manning continues at his current pace, there is not doubt he'll be considered the best.
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:thumbdown: Thank You Thank You Thank You.MONTANA is OVERRATED!!! Steve Young was a better QB. Montana had amazing supporting cast, Jerry Rice and most importantly Bill Walsh ( The Man who changed the game offensively) Most teams today use his system or a variant of it. Montana's first super bowl team had the #1 defense in the league. When has Peyton even played with close to a top 10 defense. Montana was the beneficiary of being in the right place at the right time. He was very good don't get me wrong but no had seen the West Coast Offense. Bill Walsh was a genius. Do you really think that if Dan Marino played on those Niner squads he would have no super bowl titles.Peyton is the greatest field general ever. He is the coach on the field. He works harder than anyone. I think if you asked Elway, Montana, Brady or Johny U who is the greatest, they would all say Peyton. Titles aren't everything. If Jim Kelly and Aikman switched places would Aikman have those rings or would Kelly. So to sum up Manning is Godly. Montana is overrated. Elway gets my 2nd place vote due to doing more with less. Elway lead teams to the super bowl that had no business being there and that is why they got smoked when they got there.
 
Sultan of Smut said:
nsundahl said:
Fisrt off, everyone who is envolved with football will say that it is the ultimate team sport. How could you possibly say Joe Montana is the best ever? Bill Walsh explained in interviews that Joe wasn't that great, it was hard work within a system that accomplished those titles. He led a two-minute drill against the Bengals and he's annointed best-ever? If Tim Krumrie doesn't get hurt, do the Niners win? How come no one has mentioned John Elway? If you want to talk about when the chips are down, look no further. Five SBs, two wins. And it took a running game to get him those. If you want to debate best ever, fine. You can't base it on titles. Brady, Montana, and Bradshaw had top quality defenses. I'm getting long-winded here, but if Manning continues at his current pace, there is not doubt he'll be considered the best.
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:thumbdown: Thank You Thank You Thank You.MONTANA is OVERRATED!!! Steve Young was a better QB. Montana had amazing supporting cast, Jerry Rice and most importantly Bill Walsh ( The Man who changed the game offensively) Most teams today use his system or a variant of it. Montana's first super bowl team had the #1 defense in the league. When has Peyton even played with close to a top 10 defense. Montana was the beneficiary of being in the right place at the right time. He was very good don't get me wrong but no had seen the West Coast Offense. Bill Walsh was a genius. Do you really think that if Dan Marino played on those Niner squads he would have no super bowl titles.Peyton is the greatest field general ever. He is the coach on the field. He works harder than anyone. I think if you asked Elway, Montana, Brady or Johny U who is the greatest, they would all say Peyton. Titles aren't everything. If Jim Kelly and Aikman switched places would Aikman have those rings or would Kelly. So to sum up Manning is Godly. Montana is overrated. Elway gets my 2nd place vote due to doing more with less. Elway lead teams to the super bowl that had no business being there and that is why they got smoked when they got there.
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Two absolutely ridiculous posts! Maybe the dumbest I have ever read and that is saying alot!!!! :rolleyes: I have seen Walsh speak in person at least 4 times down at Stanford and I have heard him state that Montana was the best qb to ever play the game and that he was probably the greatest athlete that he ever coached... People dont realize that Montana was a high jump champion in high school as well as a highly recruited basketball player... He also was every bit as fast as Steve Young and just about as good a scrambler when he started in the league... He also won his first championship with a supporting cast of Dwight Clark, Freddie Solomon, and Earl Cooper as his main offensive weapons! But wait I forgot he is a product of being around great players right???? Wow.
 
flyingsushi said:
When QBs like Trent Dilfer can win a Super Bowl, the argument that a QB has to win or get to a Super Bowl to be considered in the group of the very best has very little credibility in my opinion.

It's not even about the number of TDs or yds. If you watch all the little things he does, how he sets things up, no doubt he has to be considered in the same group as the greatest of all time.

Absolutely no doubt in my mind there is nobody close to Manning right now, or in the last 10 years. I can't even except the Tom Brady argument. Brady is a very very good QB, that is not the discussion. The Patriot SB teams also had a ton more talent across the board on those teams vs the Colts. The Colts had a few players, QB, a RB and 2WRs better, but that was it. NE won because they had a better team, not the best QB. Tom Brady is a distant 2nd place. There is too much emphasis placed on the Super Bowl for a player to be judged. If Manning were on those Pats teams, I think they would have gone undefeated in at least 2 of those years.

Anyways, a topic for the ages. I am sure the opinions will keep rolling.
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Dilfer, Rypien, Hosteteler. Please. Is Robert Parrish better than Patrick Ewing? Is Horace Grant better than Karl Malone? Is Tino Martinez better than Donnie Baseball? Titles are important but there are 21 other guys on the field in this sport.
 
Wally Cleaver said:
Sultan of Smut said:
nsundahl said:
Fisrt off, everyone who is envolved with football will say that it is the ultimate team sport. How could you possibly say Joe Montana is the best ever? Bill Walsh explained in interviews that Joe wasn't that great, it was hard work within a system that accomplished those titles. He led a two-minute drill against the Bengals and he's annointed best-ever? If Tim Krumrie doesn't get hurt, do the Niners win? How come no one has mentioned John Elway? If you want to talk about when the chips are down, look no further. Five SBs, two wins. And it took a running game to get him those. If you want to debate best ever, fine. You can't base it on titles. Brady, Montana, and Bradshaw had top quality defenses. I'm getting long-winded here, but if Manning continues at his current pace, there is not doubt he'll be considered the best.
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:thumbdown: Thank You Thank You Thank You.MONTANA is OVERRATED!!! Steve Young was a better QB. Montana had amazing supporting cast, Jerry Rice and most importantly Bill Walsh ( The Man who changed the game offensively) Most teams today use his system or a variant of it. Montana's first super bowl team had the #1 defense in the league. When has Peyton even played with close to a top 10 defense. Montana was the beneficiary of being in the right place at the right time. He was very good don't get me wrong but no had seen the West Coast Offense. Bill Walsh was a genius. Do you really think that if Dan Marino played on those Niner squads he would have no super bowl titles.Peyton is the greatest field general ever. He is the coach on the field. He works harder than anyone. I think if you asked Elway, Montana, Brady or Johny U who is the greatest, they would all say Peyton. Titles aren't everything. If Jim Kelly and Aikman switched places would Aikman have those rings or would Kelly. So to sum up Manning is Godly. Montana is overrated. Elway gets my 2nd place vote due to doing more with less. Elway lead teams to the super bowl that had no business being there and that is why they got smoked when they got there.
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Two absolutely ridiculous posts! Maybe the dumbest I have ever read and that is saying alot!!!! :rolleyes: I have seen Walsh speak in person at least 4 times down at Stanford and I have heard him state that Montana was the best qb to ever play the game and that he was probably the greatest athlete that he ever coached... People dont realize that Montana was a high jump champion in high school as well as a highly recruited basketball player... He also was every bit as fast as Steve Young and just about as good a scrambler when he started in the league... He also won his first championship with a supporting cast of Dwight Clark, Freddie Solomon, and Earl Cooper as his main offensive weapons! But wait I forgot he is a product of being around great players right???? Wow.
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His defense that year was ranked 1st just like Dilfer's was. I would say that having the best defense in the league is a mighty strong supporting cast. Refute that please. Defense wins championships. Teams that are the worst against the run in the regular season don't win the Super Bowl unless you have Peyton Manning.
 
Wally Cleaver said:
kensat30 said:
I still think Montana is the best QB of all time. Being the best of all time is what you do when the chips are down. Manning is probably the most accomplished regular season QB, but what has he done when it counts the most?Manning has folded in the playoffs numerous times. He's never really "battled" when it's one and done. In playoffs losses, he's blamed his teammates(O-line). He's blamed the refs(pre 5-yard touch rule). And for me, that forever tarnishes his accomplishments. The guy could pass for 100,000 yards and 500 TDs and he still would not be the best. Just like Marino is not the best, nor was he ever.
Click to expand...
:thumbdown: And its not that close....If you ever watched Montana you just knew he wasnt going to fail in the final drives... Every ball was perfect and he was at his very best when the stakes were the highest... That is greatness if you ask me! Not putting up huge stats in the regular season against weak teams... Coming up big at the biggest times makes you great!!!
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Seriously...did you two just wake up from a 10-month nap?
 
Sultan of Smut said:
Wally Cleaver said:
Sultan of Smut said:
nsundahl said:
Fisrt off, everyone who is envolved with football will say that it is the ultimate team sport. How could you possibly say Joe Montana is the best ever? Bill Walsh explained in interviews that Joe wasn't that great, it was hard work within a system that accomplished those titles. He led a two-minute drill against the Bengals and he's annointed best-ever? If Tim Krumrie doesn't get hurt, do the Niners win? How come no one has mentioned John Elway? If you want to talk about when the chips are down, look no further. Five SBs, two wins. And it took a running game to get him those. If you want to debate best ever, fine. You can't base it on titles. Brady, Montana, and Bradshaw had top quality defenses. I'm getting long-winded here, but if Manning continues at his current pace, there is not doubt he'll be considered the best.
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:goodposting: Thank You Thank You Thank You.MONTANA is OVERRATED!!! Steve Young was a better QB. Montana had amazing supporting cast, Jerry Rice and most importantly Bill Walsh ( The Man who changed the game offensively) Most teams today use his system or a variant of it. Montana's first super bowl team had the #1 defense in the league. When has Peyton even played with close to a top 10 defense. Montana was the beneficiary of being in the right place at the right time. He was very good don't get me wrong but no had seen the West Coast Offense. Bill Walsh was a genius. Do you really think that if Dan Marino played on those Niner squads he would have no super bowl titles.Peyton is the greatest field general ever. He is the coach on the field. He works harder than anyone. I think if you asked Elway, Montana, Brady or Johny U who is the greatest, they would all say Peyton. Titles aren't everything. If Jim Kelly and Aikman switched places would Aikman have those rings or would Kelly. So to sum up Manning is Godly. Montana is overrated. Elway gets my 2nd place vote due to doing more with less. Elway lead teams to the super bowl that had no business being there and that is why they got smoked when they got there.
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Two absolutely ridiculous posts! Maybe the dumbest I have ever read and that is saying alot!!!! :rolleyes: I have seen Walsh speak in person at least 4 times down at Stanford and I have heard him state that Montana was the best qb to ever play the game and that he was probably the greatest athlete that he ever coached... People dont realize that Montana was a high jump champion in high school as well as a highly recruited basketball player... He also was every bit as fast as Steve Young and just about as good a scrambler when he started in the league... He also won his first championship with a supporting cast of Dwight Clark, Freddie Solomon, and Earl Cooper as his main offensive weapons! But wait I forgot he is a product of being around great players right???? Wow.
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His defense that year was ranked 1st just like Dilfer's was. I would say that having the best defense in the league is a mighty strong supporting cast. Refute that please. Defense wins championships. Teams that are the worst against the run in the regular season don't win the Super Bowl unless you have Peyton Manning.
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I have pretty much refuted everything you said already. Bill Walsh thought Joe was the best, without question... I have met Jerry Rice at a golf tourney and he said in no uncertain terms that Young couldnt hold Montana's jock... Brent Jones (Steve Young's best friend) has been quoted saying that Young was good but there is "only one Joe"... Above you said Montana was only successful because of Rice and all his offensive weapons... I just told you he won a championship with Clark, Solomon and Earl Cooper and still managed to have one of the top scoring offenses in the NFL.... Oh and that defense you are talking about had 3 rookies starting in the secondary and two on the d-line, they were not that dominant.
 
Its tough to argue against Joe Montana as the best QB of all time. The man passed for 11TDs and never threw an INT in a Superbowl...and he won 4 of them. Eleven TDs and 0 picks in the big game. That is the definition of greatness. Manning last year in the playoffs threw 3TDs in 4 games with 7 INTs. Manning's certainly great. Montana was in a class by himself and still is.

Why wouldnt you consider Brett Favre the greatest QB of all time? He's got all the records and a Superbowl ring? Why wouldnt he be worthy of that title? Id put Manning in Favre's class...one of the greatest QBs and pure passers of all time. The best ever? Not quite. But he's got atleast another 5 years to change my mind.

 
Wally Cleaver said:
Sultan of Smut said:
Wally Cleaver said:
Sultan of Smut said:
nsundahl said:
Fisrt off, everyone who is envolved with football will say that it is the ultimate team sport. How could you possibly say Joe Montana is the best ever? Bill Walsh explained in interviews that Joe wasn't that great, it was hard work within a system that accomplished those titles. He led a two-minute drill against the Bengals and he's annointed best-ever? If Tim Krumrie doesn't get hurt, do the Niners win?

How come no one has mentioned John Elway? If you want to talk about when the chips are down, look no further. Five SBs, two wins. And it took a running game to get him those.

If you want to debate best ever, fine. You can't base it on titles. Brady, Montana, and Bradshaw had top quality defenses.

I'm getting long-winded here, but if Manning continues at his current pace, there is not doubt he'll be considered the best.
Click to expand...
:goodposting: Thank You Thank You Thank You.

MONTANA is OVERRATED!!! Steve Young was a better QB. Montana had amazing supporting cast, Jerry Rice and most importantly Bill Walsh ( The Man who changed the game offensively) Most teams today use his system or a variant of it. Montana's first super bowl team had the #1 defense in the league. When has Peyton even played with close to a top 10 defense.

Montana was the beneficiary of being in the right place at the right time. He was very good don't get me wrong but no had seen the West Coast Offense. Bill Walsh was a genius. Do you really think that if Dan Marino played on those Niner squads he would have no super bowl titles.

Peyton is the greatest field general ever. He is the coach on the field. He works harder than anyone. I think if you asked Elway, Montana, Brady or Johny U who is the greatest, they would all say Peyton.

Titles aren't everything. If Jim Kelly and Aikman switched places would Aikman have those rings or would Kelly.

So to sum up Manning is Godly. Montana is overrated. Elway gets my 2nd place vote due to doing more with less. Elway lead teams to the super bowl that had no business being there and that is why they got smoked when they got there.
Click to expand...
Two absolutely ridiculous posts! Maybe the dumbest I have ever read and that is saying alot!!!! :rolleyes: I have seen Walsh speak in person at least 4 times down at Stanford and I have heard him state that Montana was the best qb to ever play the game and that he was probably the greatest athlete that he ever coached... People dont realize that Montana was a high jump champion in high school as well as a highly recruited basketball player... He also was every bit as fast as Steve Young and just about as good a scrambler when he started in the league... He also won his first championship with a supporting cast of Dwight Clark, Freddie Solomon, and Earl Cooper as his main offensive weapons! But wait I forgot he is a product of being around great players right???? Wow.
Click to expand...
His defense that year was ranked 1st just like Dilfer's was. I would say that having the best defense in the league is a mighty strong supporting cast. Refute that please. Defense wins championships. Teams that are the worst against the run in the regular season don't win the Super Bowl unless you have Peyton Manning.
Click to expand...
I have pretty much refuted everything you said already. Bill Walsh thought Joe was the best, without question... I have met Jerry Rice at a golf tourney and he said in no uncertain terms that Young couldnt hold Montana's jock... Brent Jones (Steve Young's best friend) has been quoted saying that Young was good but there is "only one Joe"... Above you said Montana was only successful because of Rice and all his offensive weapons... I just told you he won a championship with Clark, Solomon and Earl Cooper and still managed to have one of the top scoring offenses in the NFL.... Oh and that defense you are talking about had 3 rookies starting in the secondary and two on the d-line, they were not that dominant.
Click to expand...
Their Defense was ranked number one that year. Look it up. That isn't dominant? You are a moron. So because Walsh, Rice and Jones obviously guys who would support Montana as the greatest, that makes it so? Do you really think that if Manning was on those 49er dominant squads he would not have multiple rings too? That is just plain ignorant. You are obviously a biased homer that drinks the Montana kool aid cause the media says its so. Thanks for the Brent Jones quote. And you call me ridiculous. I think there are more guys here that think Manning is and will be greater than Montana.

 
Sultan of Smut said:
Wally Cleaver said:
Sultan of Smut said:
Wally Cleaver said:
Sultan of Smut said:
nsundahl said:
Fisrt off, everyone who is envolved with football will say that it is the ultimate team sport. How could you possibly say Joe Montana is the best ever? Bill Walsh explained in interviews that Joe wasn't that great, it was hard work within a system that accomplished those titles. He led a two-minute drill against the Bengals and he's annointed best-ever? If Tim Krumrie doesn't get hurt, do the Niners win?

How come no one has mentioned John Elway? If you want to talk about when the chips are down, look no further. Five SBs, two wins. And it took a running game to get him those.

If you want to debate best ever, fine. You can't base it on titles. Brady, Montana, and Bradshaw had top quality defenses.

I'm getting long-winded here, but if Manning continues at his current pace, there is not doubt he'll be considered the best.
Click to expand...
:goodposting: Thank You Thank You Thank You.

MONTANA is OVERRATED!!! Steve Young was a better QB. Montana had amazing supporting cast, Jerry Rice and most importantly Bill Walsh ( The Man who changed the game offensively) Most teams today use his system or a variant of it. Montana's first super bowl team had the #1 defense in the league. When has Peyton even played with close to a top 10 defense.

Montana was the beneficiary of being in the right place at the right time. He was very good don't get me wrong but no had seen the West Coast Offense. Bill Walsh was a genius. Do you really think that if Dan Marino played on those Niner squads he would have no super bowl titles.

Peyton is the greatest field general ever. He is the coach on the field. He works harder than anyone. I think if you asked Elway, Montana, Brady or Johny U who is the greatest, they would all say Peyton.

Titles aren't everything. If Jim Kelly and Aikman switched places would Aikman have those rings or would Kelly.

So to sum up Manning is Godly. Montana is overrated. Elway gets my 2nd place vote due to doing more with less. Elway lead teams to the super bowl that had no business being there and that is why they got smoked when they got there.
Click to expand...
Two absolutely ridiculous posts! Maybe the dumbest I have ever read and that is saying alot!!!! :rolleyes: I have seen Walsh speak in person at least 4 times down at Stanford and I have heard him state that Montana was the best qb to ever play the game and that he was probably the greatest athlete that he ever coached... People dont realize that Montana was a high jump champion in high school as well as a highly recruited basketball player... He also was every bit as fast as Steve Young and just about as good a scrambler when he started in the league... He also won his first championship with a supporting cast of Dwight Clark, Freddie Solomon, and Earl Cooper as his main offensive weapons! But wait I forgot he is a product of being around great players right???? Wow.
Click to expand...
His defense that year was ranked 1st just like Dilfer's was. I would say that having the best defense in the league is a mighty strong supporting cast. Refute that please. Defense wins championships. Teams that are the worst against the run in the regular season don't win the Super Bowl unless you have Peyton Manning.
Click to expand...
I have pretty much refuted everything you said already. Bill Walsh thought Joe was the best, without question... I have met Jerry Rice at a golf tourney and he said in no uncertain terms that Young couldnt hold Montana's jock... Brent Jones (Steve Young's best friend) has been quoted saying that Young was good but there is "only one Joe"... Above you said Montana was only successful because of Rice and all his offensive weapons... I just told you he won a championship with Clark, Solomon and Earl Cooper and still managed to have one of the top scoring offenses in the NFL.... Oh and that defense you are talking about had 3 rookies starting in the secondary and two on the d-line, they were not that dominant.
Click to expand...
Their Defense was ranked number one that year. Look it up. That isn't dominant? You are a moron. So because Walsh, Rice and Jones obviously guys who would support Montana as the greatest, that makes it so? Do you really think that if Manning was on those 49er dominant squads he would not have multiple rings too? That is just plain ignorant. You are obviously a biased homer that drinks the Montana kool aid cause the media says its so. Thanks for the Brent Jones quote. And you call me ridiculous. I think there are more guys here that think Manning is and will be greater than Montana.
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Your right, Jones, Rice & Walshes opinions don't matter when refuting your point that Young was better than Joe but because there are more guys in here that think Manning is better then Montana that means it is so... Who's the moron...??? im done with you. You have already been :shrug:
 
I think there are alot more guys here than not that didnt even know what a football was when Montana was playing the game. The guy came into the league in 1979. Id say the majority of posters here were either not born then or were in diapers. Popular opinion would lead us to believe that Michael Jackson is the greatest singer of all time.....

 
Every other QB in this discussion played with superior defenses throughout his career.

There are only 2 guys I'm aware of who have won the superbowl without a top 10 scoring D. One was Elway, who had the number 11 D and a 2000 yard back (how's that for run support?). The other was Peyton Manning.

 
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twitch said:
I think there are alot more guys here than not that didnt even know what a football was when Montana was playing the game. The guy came into the league in 1979. Id say the majority of posters here were either not born then or were in diapers. Popular opinion would lead us to believe that Michael Jackson is the greatest singer of all time.....
Click to expand...
:lmao:
 
its funny how as time marches on, the QBs werent nearly as great and the Ds become more and more legendary. Joe Montana's D in San Francisco didnt have anything to do with him leading Notre Dame to a national championship. how good was that D? Im gonna say its a pretty short list of QBs who have won championships at both levels.

 
A crazy hypothetical....

Your team is down by 6, you have the ball at your own 20 with 2 minutes to go in a Super Bowl, you are the coach and you have your choice of putting in Montana in his prime or Manning in his on the field.. If you dont score you and your family will be killed..

Anyone who has seen them both play and would choose Manning in this situation has a death wish.

 
Assuming Manning continues at the pace he is on, he will likely hold almost every significant QB record by the time he retires, so it will be hard to argue against him, but if I had to win one game, and could take any QB of the last 25+ years at their best in that game, I would take Young, Elway, and Montana over him. Manning's number will likely dwarf all of theirs, when it is all said and done, however.

 
Obviously nobody at this point is going to get anyone to change their mind what they already think. Nobody is going to agree on what the criteria is that will separate one from the other. I do believe it has to be a collective whole, not based strictly on numbers or championships.

For all those people listing other QBs other than Manning, the one thing they had Manning doesn't or has had is a top level defense. That means there is more pressure for Manning to lead his team vs those other QBs who can rely on their defense to even out their bad games or mistakes. Manning doesn't have that option. Year in and year out he has to perform as the best QB each year for the Colts to have played at the level they have. Put Manning on any of those teams anyone is comparing Manning to and he wins more championships than that QB. More than Montana, Brady, or whoever. Crap, I think if you put Manning on any of the top 10 defensive teams last year and they win. I honestly can't say I believe any other QB in history could have that influence on his team.

Granted I am biased, living my entire life in Indy, I feel like I suffered through many years of no hope of a good team in the NFL. Once old man Irsay died, we brought in Polian and drafted Manning, all that changed.

 
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