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Campbell named Redskins starting QB (1 Viewer)

redman

redman

Footballguy
NOTE: THIS THREAD WAS ORIGINALLY A THREAD DISCUSSING BRUNELL'S ANTICIPATED BENCHING - SCROLL TO POST #58 FOR CURRENT INFO

The Redskins are 2-4, and figure to be 2-5 by the time the Colts offense finishes putting up around 10 plays of 20 or more yards against them this afternoon. They then head into a bye week before facing Dallas in week 9.

Brunell is certainly not responsible for the defensive woes that I believe are the biggest set of problems the team faces, but he's also not playing well and seems incapable of reading the field like he once did. WR's are running free and he seems to miss them and instead locks onto Santana Moss. Randle El, not one to rock the boat or to attack someone in the media, indicated flatly this week that Brunell needs to get the ball to WR's other than Moss. It's already been well documented that Brunell seems unwilling or unable to throw between the hash marks, which further limits the offense.

I think we're reaching the time of this season where the possibility of Campbell replacing Brunell in the lineup is coming soon. True, the Colts defense is far from impressive and Brunell may end up having a good or even outstanding day against them, at least statistically, but that will only postpone the inevitable. The 'Skins are winless in conference games this year (0-3), so even if they go on a win streak their chances of winning any tie-breakers to reach the playoffs are already severely damaged. Campbell figures to replace Brunell in the lineup at some point this year so that they can evaluate him in regular season game action.

If you are in any way reliant upon Brunell as a starting QB (and I hope for your sake you're not), you should strongly consider adding Campbell as a handcuff at this point. I think it's a matter of when, not it, he replaces Brunell in the starting lineup.

Incidentally, if/when that happens, I would upgrade Lloyd a bit. Campbell is taller and has a better arm, and in his preseason actions has seemed to me to be better able to stand tall, see the field and complete passes over the middle.

 
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Brunell got his garbage time TD and dinked and dunked his way to another respectable (statistics wise) game. Then at the post game Gibbs was asked about starting Cambell and he said he hasn't thought about it and that mark played really well out there.

:bag:

 
TankRizzo said:
Brunell got his garbage time TD and dinked and dunked his way to another respectable (statistics wise) game. Then at the post game Gibbs was asked about starting Cambell and he said he hasn't thought about it and that mark played really well out there. :bag:
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Gibbs is not ever going to drop hints or make criticisms in press conferences, and he certainly won't make a decision like this in an opposing team's stadium 10 minutes after a loss. In other words, those comments don't surprise me. As I posted in the game thread, what's clear is that you can't run a pass-first offense (like Saunders apparently likes to run) with Brunell in there. He can no longer shoulder that load. Worse, the offense is built from the line back to be a run first team. With the running game established, Brunell can make enough plays to win, but what's clear is that this simply isn't working. Either the play-calling needs to change, or the QB needs to change; the status quo simpy won't cut it.
 
Brunell is the ENTIRE ####### problem in DC. I could flowchart this thing if you could post powerpoint on here.

The Skins lose cause the defense is on the field too long. Why are they on the field too long? Because the Skins can't convert 3rd downs. So why can't they convert on 3rd downs? 1) They are always in 3rd and 8. 2) Brunell can't convert 3rd and 8...it's always a 4 yard pass. Why is that? 1) Teams stack the box on Portis and the screen passes cause they know the Skins aren't a deep threat. So they are playing against 10 guys within 5 yards of the LOS. So isn't it the OLs fault? Nope, cause the line can't block the number of defenders being sent.

Look, Brunell has yet to overthrow 1 person this entire season. He has only thrown the ball 30 yards down the field 4 times this season. The Skins are playing at a HUGE disadvantage because Brunell's arm is cotton candy.

Gibbs points to the stats...shows Brunell has a 80 QB Rating. What it doesn't show is that Santana Moss is responsible for about 30-40 of those points by converting 1 yard passes to 20 yards gains. Average yards downfield per pass is 3.6 yards.

The local radiostations have numerous former players on that flat out say Brunell is the root of the problem on both sides of the ball. These are guys that played for Gibbs during the SB years. Yet they are still willing to come on and blast Gibbs for sticking with Brunell.

The real question is? How bad must Campbell be to not get the job when they are 2-5 and it's painfully obvious that the problem is the starting QB.

I'm losing my respect for Gibbs minute by minute. Stubborn fool. :hot: :hot: :hot:

 
I would rather have Jason Campbell on the field making mistakes and learning on the job, than have Mark Brunell on the field unwilling to throw deep, unwilling to throw between the hash marks, and unwilling to throw to anyone not named Santana.

 
agreed. get brunell OUT!!!!!! i still wish we kept ramsey! i still dont think he got a fair chance.

 
I definitley feel your pain, and I can definitley see Brunell suiting up against the Cowboys after the bye, and that's just sad.

It's an exercise in futility to stick w/ him at QB now. He's what, 36? We're obviously not going anywhere w/ him, it's time to see what the kid can do.

I also just remembered something the other day. The unceremonious benching of Patrick Ramsey last year. He didn't even get 2 full quarters and he got the hook, yet Brunell has been given the benefit of the doubt at every turn.

 
fatness said:
I would rather have Jason Campbell on the field making mistakes and learning on the job, than have Mark Brunell on the field unwilling to throw deep, unwilling to throw between the hash marks, and unwilling to throw to anyone not named Santana.
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He spread the ball around a ton yesterday, but he still LOVES his check down. When it's 3rd and 8, you gotta throw the ball AT LEAST 8 yards...not our Mark. I'll give Joe Gibbs that....Mark Brunell does have a ton of guts to make that pass week in and week out and to show his face after the game.
 
fatness said:
I would rather have Jason Campbell on the field making mistakes and learning on the job, than have Mark Brunell on the field unwilling to throw deep, unwilling to throw between the hash marks, and unwilling to throw to anyone not named Santana.
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I couldn't agree more. But as Skins fan we need to be realistic. Brunell WON'T be pulled unless he gets hurt. He is Gibbs' guy, and isn't going to be pulled. For better or worse Gibbs is just too loyal to his vet QBs. Personally I think we are in for a lot more pain than just Brunell playing now. If Campbell doesn't get in this week, then it will be Todd Collins that gets the start, Saunders' guy. oh well at least we will have a high draft pick this year, if we don't trade it for something Rtarted that is. :cry:
 
This has been the rumbling for a bit. Adam Schefter was on NFL Network reporting he had a source in the WAS organization that thought they'd make the switch this week if they lost to IND.

I personally agree more with Gibbs that Brunell isn't the problem but the #2 QB is always the most popular guy in town for a losing team and it wouldn't surprise me at all to see Campbell get a shot.

J

 
TankRizzo said:
fatness said:
I would rather have Jason Campbell on the field making mistakes and learning on the job, than have Mark Brunell on the field unwilling to throw deep, unwilling to throw between the hash marks, and unwilling to throw to anyone not named Santana.
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He spread the ball around a ton yesterday, but he still LOVES his check down. When it's 3rd and 8, you gotta throw the ball AT LEAST 8 yards...not our Mark. I'll give Joe Gibbs that....Mark Brunell does have a ton of guts to make that pass week in and week out and to show his face after the game.
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Brunell seems to have it in his head that his only job is to not lose the game. I don't mind that when our defense is playing at full strength and can stop someone. But as banged up as the secondary is Brunell needs to make plays.
 
Joe Bryant said:
This has been the rumbling for a bit. Adam Schefter was on NFL Network reporting he had a source in the WAS organization that thought they'd make the switch this week if they lost to IND.I personally agree more with Gibbs that Brunell isn't the problem but the #2 QB is always the most popular guy in town for a losing team and it wouldn't surprise me at all to see Campbell get a shot.J
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I'm not even sure that Campbell is the #2. Saunders brought Todd Collins over for a reason, and really likes the guy. I think we could be in for quite the little QB shuffle if Collins/Campbell starts and stinks up the joint. Oh well at least we are used to the QB dance here in DC..... :wall:
 
The biggest single problem on this team is defense. They can't stop a pass play to save their lives, and that's been true for seven out of seven games. At least Brunell has had his moments.

For example, that Jacksonville game would have been an absolute ###-kicking but for the fact that Leftwich was able, time and again, to complete long pass plays. Because of that, it was an overtime thriller and not a one-sided affair.

I agree, Brunell is limiting this offense, but I'm also noting that he has only really benefitted once from a firmly established running game too (again, the Jacksonville game). Instead we're seeing a pass-first approach and simply highlights all of his limitations. He was effective last year when the team was committed to establishing the run. The blame for that problem goes to Saunders who has yet to figure out what this team was designed to do, and if Saunders has been incapable of getting that straight after seven weeks, then it's also time to ask Gibbs why.

We're getting away from the purpose of this thread. We're reaching the point of the season where the possibility of Campbell replacing Brunell is becoming more and more likely. Especially in a dynasty league if he's still available, you should pick up Campbell and stash him on your roster.

 
thayman said:
Joe Bryant said:
This has been the rumbling for a bit. Adam Schefter was on NFL Network reporting he had a source in the WAS organization that thought they'd make the switch this week if they lost to IND.I personally agree more with Gibbs that Brunell isn't the problem but the #2 QB is always the most popular guy in town for a losing team and it wouldn't surprise me at all to see Campbell get a shot.J
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I'm not even sure that Campbell is the #2. Saunders brought Todd Collins over for a reason, and really likes the guy. I think we could be in for quite the little QB shuffle if Collins/Campbell starts and stinks up the joint. Oh well at least we are used to the QB dance here in DC..... :wall:
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I agree thayman. Collins is technically #2. Or at least 2a. But this isn't a Brunell to Collins type situation I don't think. This is a "season is over and let's see what we have in Campbell" type thing.I think they're looking at the Bills passing on Cutler and Leinart and :unsure: a little.J
 
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redman said:
The biggest single problem on this team is defense. They can't stop a pass play to save their lives, and that's been true for seven out of seven games. At least Brunell has had his moments. For example, that Jacksonville game would have been an absolute ###-kicking but for the fact that Leftwich was able, time and again, to complete long pass plays. Because of that, it was an overtime thriller and not a one-sided affair. I agree, Brunell is limiting this offense, but I'm also noting that he has only really benefitted once from a firmly established running game too (again, the Jacksonville game). Instead we're seeing a pass-first approach and simply highlights all of his limitations. He was effective last year when the team was committed to establishing the run. The blame for that problem goes to Saunders who has yet to figure out what this team was designed to do, and if Saunders has been incapable of getting that straight after seven weeks, then it's also time to ask Gibbs why. We're getting away from the purpose of this thread. We're reaching the point of the season where the possibility of Campbell replacing Brunell is becoming more and more likely. Especially in a dynasty league if he's still available, you should pick up Campbell and stash him on your roster.
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Yes but the inability to stop the passing of other teams can't come as a surprise. Frankly I'm surprised we weren't abused more by INDY. Shawn Springs is only back a week, Wright and Rumph aren't that good, and Troy Vincent has lost too many steps to be very effective.I completely agree that picking up Campbell is a wise move. I don't think he will set the world on fire, but if he comes in he could be a decent WW aquisition.
 
Joe Bryant said:
thayman said:
Joe Bryant said:
This has been the rumbling for a bit. Adam Schefter was on NFL Network reporting he had a source in the WAS organization that thought they'd make the switch this week if they lost to IND.I personally agree more with Gibbs that Brunell isn't the problem but the #2 QB is always the most popular guy in town for a losing team and it wouldn't surprise me at all to see Campbell get a shot.J
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I'm not even sure that Campbell is the #2. Saunders brought Todd Collins over for a reason, and really likes the guy. I think we could be in for quite the little QB shuffle if Collins/Campbell starts and stinks up the joint. Oh well at least we are used to the QB dance here in DC..... :wall:
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I agree thayman. Collins is technically #2. Or at least 2a. But this isn't a Brunell to Collins type situation I don't think. This is a "season is over and let's see what we have in Campbell" type thing.I think they're looking at the Bills passing on Cutler and Leinart and :unsure: a little.J
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I couldn't agree more, I mean for Christ's sake I watch this team year in and year out trade draft picks to move up a bit, why oh why don't we ever trade up for a Leinart or Cutler I'll never know
 
Joe Bryant said:
This has been the rumbling for a bit. Adam Schefter was on NFL Network reporting he had a source in the WAS organization that thought they'd make the switch this week if they lost to IND.

I personally agree more with Gibbs that Brunell isn't the problem but the #2 QB is always the most popular guy in town for a losing team and it wouldn't surprise me at all to see Campbell get a shot.

J
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Statistics wise, Brunell doesn't appear to be the problem, but if you get past that and see what he's doing onfield and the plays that he's NOT making, he's killing this team. Lloyd was screaming downfield, wide open all day against the Titans, yet Brunell would choose to hit his dump off man.He isn't THE problem with this team, but he's certainly not helping matters at all, and at 2-5, they have nothing to gain by keeping him in there. And right now, all signs are pointing towards him getting the nod yet again. It's going to be a looooong two weeks here in the nation's capital.

 
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TankRizzo said:
Joe Bryant said:
This has been the rumbling for a bit. Adam Schefter was on NFL Network reporting he had a source in the WAS organization that thought they'd make the switch this week if they lost to IND.

I personally agree more with Gibbs that Brunell isn't the problem but the #2 QB is always the most popular guy in town for a losing team and it wouldn't surprise me at all to see Campbell get a shot.

J
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Statistics wise, Brunell doesn't appear to be the problem, but if you get past that and see what he's doing onfield and the plays that he's NOT making, he's killing this team. Lloyd was screaming downfield, wide open all day against the Titans, yet Brunell would choose to hit his dump off man.He isn't THE problem with this team, but he's certainly not helping matters at all, and at 2-5, they have nothing to gain by keeping him in there. And right now, all signs are pointing towards him getting the nod yet again. It's going to be a looooong two weeks here in the nation's capital.
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The problem with the team IMO is two fold. Brunell isn't a bad QB, at this point in his career he is Trent Dilfer type QB, he won't win you many games, but he won't lose many either. Couple that with a Defense that is beat to hell, particularly the secondary, and you have a reciepe for disaster. I was scared of our lack of depth in the secondary all offseason, unfortunatly no pass rush from the front 4 isn't helping matters much either.
 
I don't think Brunell is the main problem. And I don't think Campbell is going to mean the Redskins will have a better record this year than they would have if they stuck with Brunell.

But - Brunell isn't playing that well, and the team is losing and it's a really long shot that the Redskins could still compete for the playoffs this year. So - it makes a lot of sense to me to use the bye week to start preparing Campbell for starting and then let him start after the bye for the rest of the season. He probably won't be that good this year, but he'll have a much better chance of being decent next year.

 
thayman said:
Joe Bryant said:
thayman said:
Joe Bryant said:
This has been the rumbling for a bit. Adam Schefter was on NFL Network reporting he had a source in the WAS organization that thought they'd make the switch this week if they lost to IND.

I personally agree more with Gibbs that Brunell isn't the problem but the #2 QB is always the most popular guy in town for a losing team and it wouldn't surprise me at all to see Campbell get a shot.

J
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I'm not even sure that Campbell is the #2. Saunders brought Todd Collins over for a reason, and really likes the guy. I think we could be in for quite the little QB shuffle if Collins/Campbell starts and stinks up the joint. Oh well at least we are used to the QB dance here in DC..... :wall:
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I agree thayman. Collins is technically #2. Or at least 2a. But this isn't a Brunell to Collins type situation I don't think. This is a "season is over and let's see what we have in Campbell" type thing.I think they're looking at the Bills passing on Cutler and Leinart and :unsure: a little.

J
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I couldn't agree more, I mean for Christ's sake I watch this team year in and year out trade draft picks to move up a bit, why oh why don't we ever trade up for a Leinart or Cutler I'll never know
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Collins is there as an in-game reliever if Brunell gets hurt during a game, but Campbell would start any subsequent games with a week to prepare. It's one of the reasons why the bye week seems like a great time to get Campbell reps to start the next game, a home game incidentally, albeit against Dallas. I don't know why you're writing off Campbell. I have no idea whether he'll be better or worse or comparable to Leinart or Cutler in the NFL when it's all said and done. What I do like about him is what this article highlights about NFL QB prospects' chances for success based upon their college careers. In short, if they have 35 college starts, better than a 60% completion percentage, and were drafted in the first two rounds, they are very likely to be successful NFL QB's historically speaking.

Campbell had 38 college starts (all for a top NCAA Div. 1 program, Auburn), completed 64.6% of his passes, and was of course drafted in the first round. I fail to see why you should pine away for Leinart or Cutler over him.

I'll say again, for those who doubt Campbell's abilities based upon the fact that he's not played yet, go take a look at Theismann's 1985 stats for a nice dose of how much Gibbs sticks with his veteran QB's despite horrific play. It took Joey T's leg getting snapped before he finally pulled him after 11 weeks of misery. There was a reprise of that problem 3-4 years later when Gibbs stuck with a struggling and hobbled Doug Williams despite Mark Rypien's obvious development at QB.

 
thayman said:
=The problem with the team IMO is two fold. Brunell isn't a bad QB, at this point in his career he is Trent Dilfer type QB, he won't win you many games, but he won't lose many either. Couple that with a Defense that is beat to hell, particularly the secondary, and you have a reciepe for disaster. I was scared of our lack of depth in the secondary all offseason, unfortunatly no pass rush from the front 4 isn't helping matters much either.
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That's the weird thing about the defense. They were all over Manning the first half and then, all of a sudden, that disapeared. :loco:
 
I commented to my wife yesterday: For all of the money and talent on the OL, it is amazing that they simply are not that good. Brunell had lots of pressue, and they don't open up big holes for the running game.

They got all their starters there. They have been together a while. This is Joe Bugel's and Joe Gibb's 3rd year with them. And they still are not that good.

 
Joe Bryant said:
thayman said:
Joe Bryant said:
This has been the rumbling for a bit. Adam Schefter was on NFL Network reporting he had a source in the WAS organization that thought they'd make the switch this week if they lost to IND.I personally agree more with Gibbs that Brunell isn't the problem but the #2 QB is always the most popular guy in town for a losing team and it wouldn't surprise me at all to see Campbell get a shot.J
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I'm not even sure that Campbell is the #2. Saunders brought Todd Collins over for a reason, and really likes the guy. I think we could be in for quite the little QB shuffle if Collins/Campbell starts and stinks up the joint. Oh well at least we are used to the QB dance here in DC..... :wall:
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I agree thayman. Collins is technically #2. Or at least 2a. But this isn't a Brunell to Collins type situation I don't think. This is a "season is over and let's see what we have in Campbell" type thing.I think they're looking at the Bills passing on Cutler and Leinart and :unsure: a little.J
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Gibbs has stated that if Brunell has to be replaced in the middle of a game, Collins would come in. If Brunell is injured/pulled, and they have a week to prepare - Campbell will be the starting QB. They feel that without practice with the first team, Collins gives them the best chance to win coming off the bench. With a week of practice with the first team, they feel Campbell gives them the best chance to win.Plus, as you say, if they pull Brunell not for injury - it will definitely be Campbell as all they want Collins to be is a #2 guy, Campbell they obviously want to give a chance to be a #1 guy.
 
Marvelous said:
I commented to my wife yesterday: For all of the money and talent on the OL, it is amazing that they simply are not that good. Brunell had lots of pressue, and they don't open up big holes for the running game.They got all their starters there. They have been together a while. This is Joe Bugel's and Joe Gibb's 3rd year with them. And they still are not that good.
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Agreed. They're a relatively poor pass-blocking line, which is why it's mystifying to me why Saunders calls plays the way he does. These guys are excellent man-to-man blockers for between the tackles running plays, they're passable as zone blockers. Pass blocking is where they're weakest. So what does Saunders do? He continually calls mostly pass plays, leaves his tackles 1:1 against the elite pass rushers, fails to establish the run, and when he does run it's outside. :loco: If you're looking for a recipe to make this offense look as bad as possible, that's it. :wall:
 
Interesting blurb from KFFL's Lockerroom Buzz (sent out last Friday, so before the Indy game). Note, it is all written in rumor/whisper style with some KFFL speculation:

Fantasy owners are beginning to purge their rosters of quarterback Mark Brunell and for good reason. Many believe he's the problem for the team. The team itself does not trust him throwing down the field and he has not been sacked in two games. However, the problem lies with the fact he only keys in on wide receiver Santana Moss and when there are opportunities he won't throw downfield.

Some say Brunell's hearing the footsteps of the rush and he likes to get rid of the ball quickly. He understands his lack of arm strength and only trusts Moss. He threw 18 passes to the wide receivers last week and 15 of them went to Moss. He reads the right side, left side, then simply dumps it off.

Part of the problem is that teams are sitting back playing Cover 2 and taking the deep ball away. They know he will throw underneath and many of his passes don't go past the line of scrimmage. This has proven counterproductive. The team has stressed to him to throw to the other receivers, including No. 2 Brandon Lloyd. Last week he threw to him twice including one that was a 52-yard reception. Last week Moss had five receptions for 50 yards, well below his average. Moss can average 15-16 yards per catch.

Don't look for Redskins backup quarterback Jason Campbell to be inserted into the lineup anytime soon. The team would probably need to be 2-8 or 2-9 before we see him in action. At that point the white flag should be raised and the future would begin. If you own Brunell you should be worried and should take action to protect your fantasy backup position.
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If true, the team is trying to get Brunell to throw to others. If he cannot, that is cause for a qb change. Then KFFL speculations they need to be really out of it (2-8) before making a change.I suspect if Brunell is considered to be a major hinderance, the change will come sooner. But as Redman pointed out, Gibbs is historically slow to make qb changes. Patrick Ramsey was the exception, but he is now a 3rd stringer and barely made the Jet's team this year.

By the way, I have noted the Redskins' offense just does not throw 10-15 yard passed down the middle of the field. How can you run an offense without any passes in a large chunk of the field?

 
BTW, a reality check for Redskins fan about to jump off a bridge:

Looking at the same seven games in the schedule last year, the 2006 team is actually on the same pace as last year's playoff team.

Washington vs. AFC

2005: 0-4

2006: 2-2

Washington @ Giants

2005: 0-1

2006: 0-1

Washington @ Dallas

2005: 1-0

2006: 0-1

Washington at home vs. NFC Central

2005: 1-0

2006: 0-1

Totals

2005: 2-5

2006: 2-5

 
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abrecher said:
Brunell4MVP said:
The Skins lose cause the defense is on the field too long.
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Average time of possession:Washington 30:07 (rank: 16th)Opponents 29:53
Brunell4MVP said:
Why are they on the field too long? Because the Skins can't convert 3rd downs.
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Third-down conversion rate:Washington 39.6% (rank: 13th)
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Oh yeah...they held the ball for 6 minutes on their last drive yesterday...just what you need when you are down 21 points.How much of that is garbage time against prevents. I'd be interested in this stat thru 3 qtrs of each game.
 
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abrecher said:
BTW:Third-down conversion rate allowed:Washington 40.4% (rank: 25th)
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Granted it's an issue. They were on the field for 14 straight minutes (as in the NYG game). They are playing their 3rd string cover guys though. So some of that is injuries, some is poor personnel.But an O that is healthy and seemingly loaded at position players is supposed to step up and get some things done. It ain't happening.
 
Gibbs needs to make Brunell the happiest man in the world.

If he ends it now, Brunell's last two passes in the NFL were a TD pass and a 2 pt conversion. A fitting end for a decent career QB.

Get Campbell in there. See if he can do something. If not with his arm, with his feet. At least the OL won't have to have perfect protection for this to work.

Plus you see what the kid has. If nothing, trade your whole ####### 2008 draft for Matt Schaub. Might as well keep throwing the picks away until you find something useful.

 
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abrecher said:
BTW, a reality check for Redskins fan about to jump off a bridge:

Looking at the same seven games in the schedule last year, the 2006 team is actually on the same pace as last year's playoff team.

Washington vs. AFC

2005: 0-4

2006: 2-2

Washington @ Giants

2005: 0-1

2006: 0-1

Washington @ Dallas

2005: 1-0

2006: 0-1

Washington at home vs. NFC Central

2005: 1-0

2006: 0-1

Totals

2005: 2-5

2006: 2-5
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Here's the problem with the fans....you should learned to call a spade a spade!

Your season isn't over, no, but if you don't start Campbell in week 9 then you are already mailing in next year. It's painfully OBVIOUS that Brunell will lead this team to nothing more than a mad scramble at a possible wildcard.

Who knows....maybe Campbell gets a win or two. Everyone assumes that he'll automatically lose.

The Redskins team has exactly ZERO identity! ZERO team chemistry! Which is also a major problem. Maybe Campbell brings the team alive in a way that stats don't show?

Wasting draft picks on players like TJ Duckett and bad judgement of talent is preventing this team from growing as a team.

Lets not forget that Campbell was hand picked by Gibbs and Washington paid a first round pick for him!

 
Brunell4MVP said:
Gibbs needs to make Brunell the happiest man in the world.If he ends it now, Brunell's last two passes in the NFL were a TD pass and a 2 pt conversion. A fitting end for a decent career QB.Get Campbell in there. See if he can do something. If not with his arm, with his feet. At least the OL won't have to have perfect protection for this to work.Plus you see what the kid has. If nothing, trade your whole ####### 2008 draft for Matt Schaub. Might as well keep throwing the picks away until you find something useful.
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:goodposting:
 
Brunell4MVP said:
How much of that is garbage time against prevents. I'd be interested in this stat thru 3 qtrs of each game.
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NFL doesn't keep those stats, so I looked at the fourth quarter of the play-by-play records.w1: Minnesota by a substantial marginw2: evenw3: Washington by a substantial marginw4: Washington by a slight marginw5: Giants by a HUGE marginw6: Tennessee by a substantial marginw7: Washington by a substantial marginDidn't do the math, but it looks Washington has less time of possession in the 4th quarter than in the first three.
 
Just found the data from the Drive Charts on NFL.com:

Washingotn 4th quarter TOP

w1 5:53

w2 8:17

w3 10:20

w4 8:50

w5 4:13

w6 4:47

w7 9:12

Average:

Washington 7:22

Opponents 7:38

So for the first three quarters:

Washington 22:45

Opponents 22:15

 
sinatravolta said:
Joe Bryant said:
thayman said:
Joe Bryant said:
This has been the rumbling for a bit. Adam Schefter was on NFL Network reporting he had a source in the WAS organization that thought they'd make the switch this week if they lost to IND.I personally agree more with Gibbs that Brunell isn't the problem but the #2 QB is always the most popular guy in town for a losing team and it wouldn't surprise me at all to see Campbell get a shot.J
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I'm not even sure that Campbell is the #2. Saunders brought Todd Collins over for a reason, and really likes the guy. I think we could be in for quite the little QB shuffle if Collins/Campbell starts and stinks up the joint. Oh well at least we are used to the QB dance here in DC..... :wall:
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I agree thayman. Collins is technically #2. Or at least 2a. But this isn't a Brunell to Collins type situation I don't think. This is a "season is over and let's see what we have in Campbell" type thing.I think they're looking at the Bills passing on Cutler and Leinart and :unsure: a little.J
Click to expand...
Gibbs has stated that if Brunell has to be replaced in the middle of a game, Collins would come in. If Brunell is injured/pulled, and they have a week to prepare - Campbell will be the starting QB. They feel that without practice with the first team, Collins gives them the best chance to win coming off the bench. With a week of practice with the first team, they feel Campbell gives them the best chance to win.Plus, as you say, if they pull Brunell not for injury - it will definitely be Campbell as all they want Collins to be is a #2 guy, Campbell they obviously want to give a chance to be a #1 guy.
Click to expand...
So the speech has gone. But riddle me this Batman.....what happens if Collins comes in as a mid game relief as is awesome. Has a stellar game. Is he going to be pulled for Campbell for the following week?? This QB situation has disaster written all over it.....
 
redman said:
thayman said:
Joe Bryant said:
thayman said:
Joe Bryant said:
This has been the rumbling for a bit. Adam Schefter was on NFL Network reporting he had a source in the WAS organization that thought they'd make the switch this week if they lost to IND.

I personally agree more with Gibbs that Brunell isn't the problem but the #2 QB is always the most popular guy in town for a losing team and it wouldn't surprise me at all to see Campbell get a shot.

J
Click to expand...
I'm not even sure that Campbell is the #2. Saunders brought Todd Collins over for a reason, and really likes the guy. I think we could be in for quite the little QB shuffle if Collins/Campbell starts and stinks up the joint. Oh well at least we are used to the QB dance here in DC..... :wall:
Click to expand...
I agree thayman. Collins is technically #2. Or at least 2a. But this isn't a Brunell to Collins type situation I don't think. This is a "season is over and let's see what we have in Campbell" type thing.I think they're looking at the Bills passing on Cutler and Leinart and :unsure: a little.

J
Click to expand...
I couldn't agree more, I mean for Christ's sake I watch this team year in and year out trade draft picks to move up a bit, why oh why don't we ever trade up for a Leinart or Cutler I'll never know
Click to expand...
Collins is there as an in-game reliever if Brunell gets hurt during a game, but Campbell would start any subsequent games with a week to prepare. It's one of the reasons why the bye week seems like a great time to get Campbell reps to start the next game, a home game incidentally, albeit against Dallas. I don't know why you're writing off Campbell. I have no idea whether he'll be better or worse or comparable to Leinart or Cutler in the NFL when it's all said and done. What I do like about him is what this article highlights about NFL QB prospects' chances for success based upon their college careers. In short, if they have 35 college starts, better than a 60% completion percentage, and were drafted in the first two rounds, they are very likely to be successful NFL QB's historically speaking.

Campbell had 38 college starts (all for a top NCAA Div. 1 program, Auburn), completed 64.6% of his passes, and was of course drafted in the first round. I fail to see why you should pine away for Leinart or Cutler over him.

I'll say again, for those who doubt Campbell's abilities based upon the fact that he's not played yet, go take a look at Theismann's 1985 stats for a nice dose of how much Gibbs sticks with his veteran QB's despite horrific play. It took Joey T's leg getting snapped before he finally pulled him after 11 weeks of misery. There was a reprise of that problem 3-4 years later when Gibbs stuck with a struggling and hobbled Doug Williams despite Mark Rypien's obvious development at QB.
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Don'g get me wrong, I'm not writing Campbell off or doubting his abilities. I think he can be a pretty good QB. In what limited action we have seen him I think he has done a good job. I just think that there are alot of egos walking the halls at FedEx field.....I have a suspect that Saunders really wants his guy, and Gibbs really wants his. Personally I'd rather see Campbell in there as he is the future of the franchise, and would like to see him get some reps in a actuall game.
 
thayman said:
So the speech has gone. But riddle me this Batman.....what happens if Collins comes in as a mid game relief as is awesome. Has a stellar game. Is he going to be pulled for Campbell for the following week?? This QB situation has disaster written all over it.....
Click to expand...
No one on the Redskins' coaching staff thinks Collins is, or will be, a starting NFL QB.
 
Measuring a top draft pick and planning for the future has its merits; I'm just not sure Campbell is an adequately devout Christian to lead an NFL team. That could be what Gibbs is thinking.

:sarcasm: [sort of]

 
fatness said:
thayman said:
So the speech has gone. But riddle me this Batman.....what happens if Collins comes in as a mid game relief as is awesome. Has a stellar game. Is he going to be pulled for Campbell for the following week?? This QB situation has disaster written all over it.....
Click to expand...
No one on the Redskins' coaching staff thinks Collins is, or will be, a starting NFL QB.
Click to expand...
So let's pretend that Collins comes in after a Brunell injury after the Bye. Beats Dallas and has a great game. How can you pull him after a great performance?? Saunders has been pretty high on Collins, and has said in the past that he doesn't think Campbell has a handle on his playbook yet (granted back in preseason but still). Not saying all of that will happen, I'd much rather Campbell be the #2 and come in to play Dallas for better or worse. Then again maybe I'm just a bit gun-shy over all the QB shuffling we did when Spurrier was here......this has the makings of a painful situation.......
 
I doubt its Campbell time yet. While they are 2-5 and looking pretty poor, the fact that Philly has lost two straight will only allow Gibbs to keep Brunell in longer. I think they will need to be four out (or 3 out with 5 to play) before we see Campbell getting significant time.

The Skins are only 2 out. I don't see Gibbs telling the vets that he will go with the youngster and see what they have for next year. It is the wrong mesage. Instead, I foresee the team hunkering down and geting through the bye week with Brunell at the helm. THe Dallas game saved Brunell last year, and I think Gibbs gives him a shot again. What they should do is use the bye week to get Campbell up to speed to be the #2. Currently at the #3 my guess is he gets less then 5% of the practice time each week in preparation. The #2 would get 15-20% max. That difference should help Campbell prepare and learn more.

Collins is a career backup. He will not be a long term starter.

As for the rest of the offense, I think Saunders has to leardn to adapt. HE doesn't have Green at QB. He must play call to suit his new offense better. If they are going to throw short, do it on first down. And I am not just talking about a WR screen to Moss.

Since Brunell does not have significant arm strength then start mixing up the plays a bit more. Teams are stacking the box on 1st down looking for the run or the short WR screen. Also, have Brunell roll out left. Why they roll out right with a lefty at QB is beyond me.

 
BigJim® said:
Measuring a top draft pick and planning for the future has its merits; I'm just not sure Campbell is an adequately devout Christian to lead an NFL team. That could be what Gibbs is thinking. :sarcasm: [sort of]
Click to expand...
Similar to what I told my friends who are Skins fans - Campbell needs start getting to church more. Maybe lead a Bible study group or something. :D
 
abrecher said:
BTW, a reality check for Redskins fan about to jump off a bridge:

Looking at the same seven games in the schedule last year, the 2006 team is actually on the same pace as last year's playoff team.

Washington vs. AFC

2005: 0-4

2006: 2-2

Washington @ Giants

2005: 0-1

2006: 0-1

Washington @ Dallas

2005: 1-0

2006: 0-1

Washington at home vs. NFC Central

2005: 1-0

2006: 0-1

Totals

2005: 2-5

2006: 2-5
Click to expand...
I fail to see how this season to date is in any way comparable to last year's first seven games:
Game-by-game results+--------+-------------------------------+----------+---------+| Week | Opponent | Result | Score |+--------+-------------------------------+----------+---------+| 1 | Chicago Bears | W | 9- 7 || 2 | at Dallas Cowboys | W | 14-13 || 3 | || 4 | Seattle Seahawks | W | 20-17 || 5 | at Denver Broncos | L | 19-21 || 6 | at Kansas City Chiefs | L | 21-28 || 7 | San Francisco 49ers | W | 52-17 || 8 | at New York Giants | L | 0-36 |The fact is that last year's team was fortunate enough to only be losing non-conference/non-divisional games. They were 5-1 in their division last year which was the best intra-division record in the NFC East, even better than the 4-2 that the division champion Giants posted. This year it's the opposite: they've only beaten AFC teams. That means that even if they had the same record as last year (and they don't - they're worse by two games) their record would still be weaker by virtue of tie-breakers. Moreover, the two losses on the road at Denver and KC were valiant efforts that were nearly wins. The 'Skins at least had that as consolation to be able to suggest that maybe they were better than their record. At this point, they have none of that. Their 2-5 record is a very accurate indication of their performance so far this year. In addition, their remaining schedule is more difficult this year by virtue of their playoff berth and the overall improvement of the division.

I'm not ready to jump off the bridge. I think the 'Skins will end up with more wins this year than most will give them credit for at this point, e.g. 7 instead of 4 or 5. Gibbs always tends to end strong. However we need to get real about how poorly they've played as a team this year so far.

 
Again, to keep the thread on point, you're reaching the last point of the season where Campbell will still be available on the waiver wire, and we appear to be approaching the point where even Gibbs will give in an play him.

 
Look, I've lost my homerism here. This Skins team just flat out sucks. The players stink, the coaches stink, and more importantly management stinks.

The downfall started with free agency, the move to FedEx, and then the ill-timed death of Jack Kent Cooke. They lost Cooke at a key time, when free agency's affect was just starting to be felt. The subsequent 2-3 years brought turmoil over who would own the team. During that time, there was a great lack of cohesive strategy from the front office. Not to mention that being banned to the MD burbs...the poorest and least liked part of the entire DC area, took away the home town advantages this team had. Now it's a corporate park with about half of the fans just wanting to eat their crabcake balls in the confines of their luxury boxes.

All of this led to Snyder. First, he picks the biggest fool in FB to run his team. Cerrato has no eye for talent. Second, he decided he should pay players before they ever performed....Jeff George, Deion, etc., running guys like Davis and Brad Johnson out of town. Then he picked crappy coaches, and some good ones (Marty) that wouldn't give into his stupid fantasy football team concept.

So after 6-7 years, has Snyder done anything to turn it around?

They have yet to draft decent players...Pierce is the lone good pick, and he's gone. Rogers...crap, Arrington...crap, Samuels and Jansen...overpaid. They make terrible trades (Moss/Coles being the only one that worked out at least even). Now they have no draft picks. They have no future. They'll just continue to throw away picks so they can sign free agents. Not to mention, when they trade for players like Lloyd, they immediately sign them to longer deals, giving them no incentive to perform.

Folks, I'm a huge homer. But I'm finally seeing the light. The Skins methods of beating the salary cap are not working. You just get a ton of overpaid, underperforming players. And an incredibly ####ty team.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Brunell4MVP said:
Look, I've lost my homerism here. This Skins team just flat out sucks. The players stink, the coaches stink, and more importantly management stinks.The downfall started with free agency, the move to FedEx, and then the ill-timed death of Jack Kent Cooke. They lost Cooke at a key time, when free agency's affect was just starting to be felt. The subsequent 2-3 years brought turmoil over who would own the team. During that time, there was a great lack of cohesive strategy from the front office. Not to mention that being banned to the MD burbs...the poorest and least liked part of the entire DC area, took away the home town advantages this team had. Now it's a corporate park with about half of the fans just wanting to eat their crabcake balls in the confines of their luxury boxes.All of this led to Snyder. First, he picks the biggest fool in FB to run his team. Cerrato has no eye for talent. Second, he decided he should pay players before they ever performed....Jeff George, Deion, etc., running guys like Davis and Brad Johnson out of town. Then he picked crappy coaches, and some good ones (Marty) that wouldn't give into his stupid fantasy football team concept.So after 6-7 years, has Snyder done anything to turn it around?They have yet to draft decent players...Pierce is the lone good pick, and he's gone. Rogers...crap, Arrington...crap, Samuels and Jansen...overpaid. They make terrible trades (Moss/Coles being the only one that worked out at least even). Now they have no draft picks. They have no future. They'll just continue to throw away picks so they can sign free agents. Not to mention, when they trade for players like Lloyd, they immediately sign them to longer deals, giving them no incentive to perform.Folks, I'm a huge homer. But I'm finally seeing the light. The Skins methods of beating the salary cap are not working. You just get a ton of overpaid, underperforming players. And an incredibly ####ty team.They bring in players, pay them before they add benefit to the team, and the players react accordingly.
Click to expand...
I can understand being down, but what you've written above amounts to overreaction. It's also not on point in this thread. Start a new thread to discuss this.
 
From PFW:

"Team sources insist that QB Mark Brunell likely won’t get the hook from Joe Gibbs until the team is out of playoff contention, but it’s clear Brunell is not a great fit in this offense. It appears he’s still in the mindset of not making a mistake, which was more important before Al Saunders took over, and that he’s still relying too much on WR Santana Moss. In the Week Six loss to Tennessee, 15 of Brunell’s 18 passes that went to wideouts were in Moss’ direction, including the game-clinching interception on which Moss clearly was double-covered. However, Brunell did a better job of distributing the ball in a Week Seven loss to the Colts. The team likes Jason Campbell’s talent, size and toughness and thinks he has the poise to handle the position, but it doesn’t know about his command in the huddle. There also would need to be changes in the offense if Campbell took over. Also, something that is out of the hands of anyone who plays quarterback for the Redskins is the protection, which has been spotty at times."

 
redman said:
Brunell4MVP said:
Look, I've lost my homerism here. This Skins team just flat out sucks. The players stink, the coaches stink, and more importantly management stinks.The downfall started with free agency, the move to FedEx, and then the ill-timed death of Jack Kent Cooke. They lost Cooke at a key time, when free agency's affect was just starting to be felt. The subsequent 2-3 years brought turmoil over who would own the team. During that time, there was a great lack of cohesive strategy from the front office. Not to mention that being banned to the MD burbs...the poorest and least liked part of the entire DC area, took away the home town advantages this team had. Now it's a corporate park with about half of the fans just wanting to eat their crabcake balls in the confines of their luxury boxes.All of this led to Snyder. First, he picks the biggest fool in FB to run his team. Cerrato has no eye for talent. Second, he decided he should pay players before they ever performed....Jeff George, Deion, etc., running guys like Davis and Brad Johnson out of town. Then he picked crappy coaches, and some good ones (Marty) that wouldn't give into his stupid fantasy football team concept.So after 6-7 years, has Snyder done anything to turn it around?They have yet to draft decent players...Pierce is the lone good pick, and he's gone. Rogers...crap, Arrington...crap, Samuels and Jansen...overpaid. They make terrible trades (Moss/Coles being the only one that worked out at least even). Now they have no draft picks. They have no future. They'll just continue to throw away picks so they can sign free agents. Not to mention, when they trade for players like Lloyd, they immediately sign them to longer deals, giving them no incentive to perform.Folks, I'm a huge homer. But I'm finally seeing the light. The Skins methods of beating the salary cap are not working. You just get a ton of overpaid, underperforming players. And an incredibly ####ty team.They bring in players, pay them before they add benefit to the team, and the players react accordingly.
Click to expand...
I can understand being down, but what you've written above amounts to overreaction. It's also not on point in this thread. Start a new thread to discuss this.
Click to expand...
No, it's exactly on point. The reason Campbell is not playing is cause management/coaching stinks. And if he was worth giving up a #1 pick for, he should be in the damn game.Campbell should be on the field, but he won't be until someone (read Al Saunders) mans up and tells Gibbs to get that old fart off the field.
 
Brunell4MVP said:
And if he was worth giving up a #1 pick for, he should be in the damn game.
Click to expand...
The draft pick's traded and the draft pick used to select Campbell are called "sunken costs." That's the cost they paid for him and they can't get that back, meaning they are "sunken." Whether they play him or don't play him, nothing changes about the cost. That's in the past. So, the only question a good coaching staff should ask is, "Does Campbell give us a better chance to win than Brunell?" As of now, they are saying Brunell gives them the best chance. If Gibbs said, "We're starting Campbell because we invested so much in him," I'd be one pissed off fan.
 
Brunell4MVP said:
redman said:
Brunell4MVP said:
Look, I've lost my homerism here. This Skins team just flat out sucks. The players stink, the coaches stink, and more importantly management stinks.The downfall started with free agency, the move to FedEx, and then the ill-timed death of Jack Kent Cooke. They lost Cooke at a key time, when free agency's affect was just starting to be felt. The subsequent 2-3 years brought turmoil over who would own the team. During that time, there was a great lack of cohesive strategy from the front office. Not to mention that being banned to the MD burbs...the poorest and least liked part of the entire DC area, took away the home town advantages this team had. Now it's a corporate park with about half of the fans just wanting to eat their crabcake balls in the confines of their luxury boxes.All of this led to Snyder. First, he picks the biggest fool in FB to run his team. Cerrato has no eye for talent. Second, he decided he should pay players before they ever performed....Jeff George, Deion, etc., running guys like Davis and Brad Johnson out of town. Then he picked crappy coaches, and some good ones (Marty) that wouldn't give into his stupid fantasy football team concept.So after 6-7 years, has Snyder done anything to turn it around?They have yet to draft decent players...Pierce is the lone good pick, and he's gone. Rogers...crap, Arrington...crap, Samuels and Jansen...overpaid. They make terrible trades (Moss/Coles being the only one that worked out at least even). Now they have no draft picks. They have no future. They'll just continue to throw away picks so they can sign free agents. Not to mention, when they trade for players like Lloyd, they immediately sign them to longer deals, giving them no incentive to perform.Folks, I'm a huge homer. But I'm finally seeing the light. The Skins methods of beating the salary cap are not working. You just get a ton of overpaid, underperforming players. And an incredibly ####ty team.They bring in players, pay them before they add benefit to the team, and the players react accordingly.
Click to expand...
I can understand being down, but what you've written above amounts to overreaction. It's also not on point in this thread. Start a new thread to discuss this.
Click to expand...
No, it's exactly on point. The reason Campbell is not playing is cause management/coaching stinks. And if he was worth giving up a #1 pick for, he should be in the damn game.Campbell should be on the field, but he won't be until someone (read Al Saunders) mans up and tells Gibbs to get that old fart off the field.
Click to expand...
I understand what your saying, and what your frustrations are. However, I'm a huge fan of letting your young QB ride the pine, learn come in after a couple of seasons ala Rivers/Palmer. The one thing that you cannot fault Snyder for is he at least cares, he wants to win, and he seems to be learing with every season. It could be worse, he could have gone the rought of the Bidwells out in Arizona, not caring and just wanting the $$$, or the Al Davis route of super insecure psycho that controls every facet of the organization.Snyder approaches the Redskins as a business, even the football side. Last year our WRs were thin so he threw tons of cash at the problem, now we have plenty. What do you think he will do this next offseason? They will aquire the most premire CBs that are available next year. The entire "over-paid" arguement doesn't work. I like how he spends as much money as possible EVERY SINGLE YEAR. As a fan I don't get a check for the difference he is under the cap, so he can spend $200 mililon in salary for all I care.end of hijack
 
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