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Malcolm Kelly Reportedly Runs 4.68/4.75 (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Sigmund Bloom
- Start date
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
I'm all about the workout being a little bit overrated but with that 40 time and Vert, how can they say he looked very good?
Im guessing that refers to running routes/catching the ball, although it could also could be a reference to how he looked vis a vis injuries and what-not.
Winning IS Everything
Footballguy
I think he posted a good shuttle and cone drill time. Do you think it may be possible a team like Buffalo that originally liked him as a 1st rounder tries to address another need in the 1st and tries to get Kelly in the 2nd? I still think Kelly would be a good compliment to Evans.
Winning IS Everything
Footballguy
Plus let's remember Boldin ran approximately a 4.7 post injury as well. I think he turned out ok.
massraider
Footballguy
Jerry Rice
Anquan Boldin
Just wanted to be first.
edit:
DANG!!
Anquan Boldin
Just wanted to be first.
edit:
DANG!!
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Maroney=Speed
Footballguy
Do we just throw out the last two years of on field play? Is the Pro Day/Combine that meaningful to you? Does it now come down to were He gets drafted Round/Team?
Jason Wood
Zoo York
A bigger question is...if 40-times are so irrelevant, why are they such an enormous part of the draft analysis process and media coverage?
Mr. Peterson
Footballguy
I wonder if we'll have to trade up a little bit in the 2nd to get him like we did with Poz.
Winning IS Everything
Footballguy
It is possible. I think someone early in the 2nd will say "He is still there?" and grab him.
Maroney=Speed
Footballguy
What else would there be to talk about for 4 months or so?
Winning IS Everything
Footballguy
A WR will also need good quicks and/or strength to create separation after the snap.
Maroney=Speed
Footballguy
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Undoubtedly. If he made it past the Rams in the 2nd I'd be surprised.
Kelly definitely plays as fast as Sweed - so maybe the 40 time is reason to doubt the soundness of his knees, but his 3 cone and short shuttle were better than Sweed's and even a WR thought of as smaller and quicker like Eddie Royal.
Jiggyonthehut
Footballguy
I'm with bloom on this one. A bit dissapionted with that 40 time but I really liked his short shuttle. With his routes and hands, he keeps reminding me of Mark Clayton, albeit much less physical. Goes down way too easily sometimes. I'm not entirely sold on him being slotted at #11 and don't think any reciever in this class should be slotted top-15.
That said, I can really see him doing some good things in the NFL. I don't forsee a situation where he falls out of round 1 even if he makes it past pick 20. 24-29 wouldn't surprise me, but he's not falling out of round 1.
That said, I can really see him doing some good things in the NFL. I don't forsee a situation where he falls out of round 1 even if he makes it past pick 20. 24-29 wouldn't surprise me, but he's not falling out of round 1.
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
I never thought he looked as fast as Hardy or Sweed on the field. It was why I was expecting surprising results at the Combine. I don't think he plays 4.7 slow, but I do think he has trouble separating. Doing nicely in the quickness tests may suggest he isn't injured as those events stress the knees as much or more than a straight sprint. I'm not speculating on that. I think he just lacks a top gear. He is good after the catch. I have preferred Hardy for awhile. I can't say this makes me prefer Sweed since I've struggled with that all along and expected slow times from Kelly. I agree he made some others money today. I feel bad for him. I hope Bloom is right and he becomes another poster boy for over emphasized measureables.EBF said:
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Come to Minnesota, MK. 
rabidfireweasel
Footballguy
I actually think cone drills and shuttle are much more important for wr's than runningbacks. WR's rarely simply wr in a straight line. They need excellent footwork and balance to run precise routes that do not give away to NFL level db's where they are going. However, somewhere between 4.7 and 4.8 is a cutoff forty time for an uninjured player. You simply will be too slow to get open if you are much slower than that.FTRWRTR said:
EBF
Footballguy
Maybe he's fully healthy and he's really just that slow. I don't know. It shocks me because I remember watching a YouTube video of James Jones and then watching a YouTube video of Malcolm Kelly shortly thereafter and thinking Kelly was clearly faster.
I never get carried away with 40 times, but 4.7 is slow enough to worry you. It definitely crushes Kelly's draft stock and sends him somewhere into the 2nd round. I sort of thought the Bills might take him at 1.11, but that seems unlikely now. I could see them going with Devin Thomas, Limas Sweed, or James Hardy instead. Thomas seems like the favorite to be the first WR drafted at this point.
I never get carried away with 40 times, but 4.7 is slow enough to worry you. It definitely crushes Kelly's draft stock and sends him somewhere into the 2nd round. I sort of thought the Bills might take him at 1.11, but that seems unlikely now. I could see them going with Devin Thomas, Limas Sweed, or James Hardy instead. Thomas seems like the favorite to be the first WR drafted at this point.
Ive seen Kelly do more after the catch than Sweed - Sweed also didn't seem to get separation very easily and most of his big catches were also tightly contested. I'll give you that Hardy is probably faster, but I dont think he's nearly as effective over the middle.Kelly's 40 also doesnt change his status as one of the best, if not the best blocking WR in the draft.
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Couch Potato
Footballguy
Put together Kelly's speed and Troy Williamson's hands and you have... Couch Potato!
Wait, I run a 4.75 20, not 40. Never mind.
Wait, I run a 4.75 20, not 40. Never mind.
Kelly is a huge risk with what is reported to be (2) bad knees.
If he falls to the 3rd or so of the NFL draft then i think it's pretty clear most teams fear his knees are probably already close to shot.
I personally thought he was over-rated even before he missed the combine (he always looked somewhat slow to me, not sure how others saw him as fast, but i guess it's in the eye of the beholder), but now it's hard to say if he's over-rated or under-rated due to the uncertainty with his knees.
Hardy is the WR to have in this draft as he'll be borderline unstoppable in the red-zone in one-on-one coverage, he reminds me of an Antonio Gates hybred the way he shields defenders with his body.
If he falls to the 3rd or so of the NFL draft then i think it's pretty clear most teams fear his knees are probably already close to shot.
I personally thought he was over-rated even before he missed the combine (he always looked somewhat slow to me, not sure how others saw him as fast, but i guess it's in the eye of the beholder), but now it's hard to say if he's over-rated or under-rated due to the uncertainty with his knees.
Hardy is the WR to have in this draft as he'll be borderline unstoppable in the red-zone in one-on-one coverage, he reminds me of an Antonio Gates hybred the way he shields defenders with his body.
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
Good points.Kelly is very good after the catch, similar to James Jones. He is the best blocker. I think Hardy is underrated in that regard. Sweed also struggles to separate, but I thought I saw real nice long speed from him several times that I never really saw from Kelly. I've felt all along the WRs were being overrated a little. Maybe this will cause a needed correction in the groupthink? I know I want Dallas to pass on WR until the 3rd round. I compare these WRs to each other and get excited about them. I compare them to NFL WRs and lose a little interest. Is Kelly or Sweed better than Sam Hurd? Honestly, I don't know, but I have my doubts and wouldn't want to spend a 1st round pick to find out.
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Wildman
Footballguy
I'll take a crack at this one:Because coaches and GMs always talk about team speed, but if you listen closer it's always with caveat or assumption that the players being compared are good football players. There are some personnel types who try to "teach" a fast player to be a football player and they often have limited success or complete failure: Renaldo Neimiah, Ron Brown, and James Jett are examples. Then there are some who really don't place too much emphasis on the timed speed if the film speed looks faster. As DraftGuys TV did such a good job of asking Russ Lande, scouts look to see if the speed in the workout is there, but also if the guy runs like he does when they look at him on field. It's quite possible Kelly runs faster in game situations. Media coverage doesn't mean so much. There are tons of things the mainstream media cover in sports and news that are made much more of a spectacle than it's worth. Speed is exciting. The same way in news blood is exciting. In the news world "if it bleeds, it leads" is a common refrain. Same thing with animal stories or kid stories. Unless of course, it's a story of something happening to thousands of kids in another country that might have a greater impact on the world but it loses precedence to little Johnny stuck in a well.In sports, speed and strength are raw physical attributes that are iconic in nature. The problem is in any sport, the very best also have great technique and knowledge of their craft--which is always underrated. Early in their careers, HOFers are often just seen as "big, fast, athletic" and not the technicians they've become. Michael Jordan was often regarded as being great because he could jump so well and only later was he regarded as a great technician once he achieved the results...although it was there to see even early on. The average joe can identify with someone running in a straight line. It's simple and warrants simple conclusions that can be given in a sound byte. It also is the common mistake made by teams that exhibit poor personnel judgment as discussed over and over and over again by writers, analysts, and former player/personnel types who are actually writing for major media about this topic year after year.Jason Wood said:
MAC_32
Footballguy
If I were a Bills fan I'd be ecstatic right now, instead of blowing a 1st rounder on Kelly now you can wait until the 2nd and address another position with a better player in the 1st. I put a lot more stock in what he did in the 3 cone, short shuttle, and position drills than how fast he can run in a straight line.
Not much to add except that 40 times are also very important for any player who was at a lower level of competition (with the cavaet about them running on the field the same way they run in workouts) because its an indicator of whether the speed will translate.Also, we spend a lot of time talking about the 40, but the 10 yard split is the more important number imo.
The problem with that theory is that he still ran excellent SS and 3 cone times, that would suggest his knees are sound. I think the important thing that happened today was that he was exposed as lacking a second gear - the knee problem thing is being answered in team visits when the team physician puts Kelly through the paces - today answered the physical attributes question. he timed slower than expected by some, but also quicker.
EBF
Footballguy
You might be right. Kelly would still make a nice complement to Lee Evans.
az_prof
Footballguy
There are examples of people who have been under water for more than five minutes who survive. That doesn't mean I want to do it. One outlier example (anecdote) does not constitute a general rule. How many of the top 20 WRs in the NFL run a 4.7 time? You mention one. If his time 2as in the 4.5s it would be a concern but could be overlooked if there were other positives. If his jump were higher (35 inches or more) it would be easier to overlook. I wonder if he is injured and if this affected him? Didn't he not run earlier because of an injury? If that is the case then this might not be indicative of what he will be able to do when he fully recovers.Winning IS Everything said:
az_prof
Footballguy
I definitely defer to Bloom and others like EBG who seem to understand how these statisitics translate to specific positions better than me. So then the question I have for you Bloom is what is his 10 yard split and what should we look for in that stat for a WR?Not much to add except that 40 times are also very important for any player who was at a lower level of competition (with the cavaet about them running on the field the same way they run in workouts) because its an indicator of whether the speed will translate.Also, we spend a lot of time talking about the 40, but the 10 yard split is the more important number imo.
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
this is a good question...ideally, it would be nice to have a player with impressive prep & collegiate resume, a body of work that bears up under intense game film scrutiny, COUPLED with great explosiveness, speed, quickness & strength measurables... in that context, measurables might be useful for parsing the elite prospects... champ bailey looked great in college & had demonstrable off-the-charts athleticism & versatility, but the fact that he ran an elite 40 time arguably helped to foreshadow how well he would transition to the NFL, matched up against similary fast pro WRs...if the two don't go together, it does seem to be a questionable practice to put 40 time ahead of the body of work, which some scouts say should comprise something like 90% of the OVERALL evaluation (the mike mamula theorem)... at least with players that flashed adequate FUNCTIONAL & PLAYING speed, we can say they are football players... with workout warriors, not only do you not know, if anything there is reason to have serious concern... sometimes great athletes can be coached up, but inherent attributes like instincts for the game, toughness, etc, aren't so easily coached up...boldin showed he was a football player (at time, florida prep all time leader in career combined yards as star running QB, great career at florida state), & like rice & TO before him, compensated for lack of pure top end speed with above average short area burst & acceleration... boldin is an interesting & oft-cited example of an ostensibly "slow" skill position player suceeding, but if i'm not mistaken, he significantly bettered his time at pro day, & i think some scouts thought that as he returned to pre-knee injury form, he would regain some of his speed (reportedly in 4.4 range prior to injury)...it isn't completely ridiculous to see why some scouts would want to weight speed measurables into the overall evaluation (though no doubt a lot of us would agree it can be over-weighted & the expense of damning game film, to a team's peril)... while players that looked great in college but with suspect speed & explosive measurables MIGHT be the next boldin, for every story like boldin, there must be far more where... if a prospect times like he is REALLY ponderous, maybe he is... maybe he looked like a sure thing against slower, less talented college players, but the question remains how he will fare against far faster & more talented NFL athletes...some drills are more important by position... you don't want a slow CB, but a "slower" (but still relatively fast) CB can compensate with exceptional quickness... a extremely fast CB with poor feet, movement skills, change of direction ability, is a serious problem, & may be uncorrectable...your question was about 40 time, though, jason, & maybe it can be extended to other measurables...westbrook is a nice contra-indicator in a few ways... he doesn't have optimal size you would like for the position, but he brings so many other things to the table, that on balance, he might be one of the 2-3 top RBs in the NFL currently...he also isn't fast, & some may even call him slow... i think he is a pedestrian (for a RB) 4.6 guy... but his first step initial quickness is among the best in the business... & this does bring up at least one flaw with the 40, & points out how it can be a very crude & blunt instrument for measuring prospects, when wielded clumsily... football isn't run in straight lines, at one speed... westbrook may be slower than a lot of defenders in 40, but he is far quicker... & when he is starting & stopping, changing directions, putting ankle-breaking double moves on them, now the defenders are in his world... & when forced to NOT run the 40 in a straight line, now all of a sudden they are chasing from behind, lunging & missing him...another problem is that 40 time is so obviously unnatural & contrived... some players are track shorts fast, & some are pad fast... if you aren't the latter, what difference does it make if you are the former...Jason Wood said:
also, some players have better build up speed... it may take a bit longer to get to full speed, but once they are there, they may actually be faster than other players with better initial speed but less top end speed...so it would be interesting to see prospects run in pads... & also see how fast they ran with a running start... the 40 is also unnatural & contrived in that RBs may not employ pure track form when carrying ball through the OL... when they are really playing & using running style in a way that accounts for ball security, are some RBs faster or slower in that context? some RBs bounce off tacklers & maintain their speed better, relative to one another... and so on...40 time doesn't address this stuff...* i wrote this before seeing your excellent post, wildman, making mine somewhat redundant... good work...* another way to look at how speed requirements are different positionally, is for linemen (though you don't want LTs that are TOO slow, but even there quickness, athleticism & strength great compensators)... how well do lineman maintain speed while being karate chopped in the neck, which on almost every play of the game, would be a deathblow for one of us? 
ali smith might be a good illustration of some of the concepts at the crux of this conversation...looks good on film... but ran a horrific 40 time at combine... if he didn't better it substantially at pro day (i think maybe he did, but only marginally), this could be a problem for him... his size & skill set may make him better fit at WLB in NFL... but if he is too slow of foot, there are legit questions of whether his college production will translate well to NFL speed, & if he will be able to play in space...
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EBF
Footballguy
Most skill position guys run 10 yards in 1.40-1.58 seconds.
Some recent RB/WR prospects:
Chris Johnson - 1.40
Jamaal Charles - 1.46
Jonathan Stewart - 1.46
Eddie Royal - 1.46
Felix Jones - 1.46
Devin Thomas - 1.47
Ray Rice - 1.47
Ted Ginn - 1.47
Matt Forte - 1.49
Mario Manningham - 1.50
Darren McFadden - 1.50
Calvin Johnson - 1.52
Adrian Peterson - 1.53
Dwayne Bowe - 1.53
Marshawn Lynch - 1.53
Desean Jackson - 1.53
Rashard Mendenhall - 1.53
Limas Sweed - 1.54
James Hardy - 1.56
Looking at a disparity between 10/40 times is a good way to tell if a player is a fast starter or more of a built-up speed kind of guy. For example, McFadden's elite 4.33 40 time combined with a mediocre 1.50 split likely means he doesn't have the greatest initial burst of speed, but that his top speed is blazing. IMO, top speed is of secondary importance to 10 yard speed since football players rarely run in a straight line for more than 5-15 yards.
Some recent RB/WR prospects:
Chris Johnson - 1.40
Jamaal Charles - 1.46
Jonathan Stewart - 1.46
Eddie Royal - 1.46
Felix Jones - 1.46
Devin Thomas - 1.47
Ray Rice - 1.47
Ted Ginn - 1.47
Matt Forte - 1.49
Mario Manningham - 1.50
Darren McFadden - 1.50
Calvin Johnson - 1.52
Adrian Peterson - 1.53
Dwayne Bowe - 1.53
Marshawn Lynch - 1.53
Desean Jackson - 1.53
Rashard Mendenhall - 1.53
Limas Sweed - 1.54
James Hardy - 1.56
Looking at a disparity between 10/40 times is a good way to tell if a player is a fast starter or more of a built-up speed kind of guy. For example, McFadden's elite 4.33 40 time combined with a mediocre 1.50 split likely means he doesn't have the greatest initial burst of speed, but that his top speed is blazing. IMO, top speed is of secondary importance to 10 yard speed since football players rarely run in a straight line for more than 5-15 yards.
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ditka85
Footballguy
From TFYdraft.com, an interesting tidbit regarding the surface Kelly ran on:
04/09 Reggie Smith & Malcolm Kelly Workout Updates
Mayhem has reigned at Oklahoma’s second pro-day.
The times for the two main participants today were less than inspiring.
Defensive back Reggie Smith posted a 39.5 inch vertical jump and 10-9 broad then ran his forty in a time of 4.61.
Receiver Malcolm Kelly was not as fortunate running his forty in 4.73 seconds.
According to sources on the scene Kelly’s agent Chad Speck got into a heated verbal confrontation with the Oklahoma Sooner strength and conditioning coach, claiming Oklahoma had set Kelly up to fail.
Kelly’s agent was told never to return to the facility.
One player we spoke with who ran well during OU’s first pro-day declined to run today because of the slow surface. This morning we were told the location of the forty was run on a different surface which was even slower. There is presently a huge argument as to why the forty was run where it was.
We will update this story as we get more.
04/09 Reggie Smith & Malcolm Kelly Workout Updates
Mayhem has reigned at Oklahoma’s second pro-day.
The times for the two main participants today were less than inspiring.
Defensive back Reggie Smith posted a 39.5 inch vertical jump and 10-9 broad then ran his forty in a time of 4.61.
Receiver Malcolm Kelly was not as fortunate running his forty in 4.73 seconds.
According to sources on the scene Kelly’s agent Chad Speck got into a heated verbal confrontation with the Oklahoma Sooner strength and conditioning coach, claiming Oklahoma had set Kelly up to fail.
Kelly’s agent was told never to return to the facility.
One player we spoke with who ran well during OU’s first pro-day declined to run today because of the slow surface. This morning we were told the location of the forty was run on a different surface which was even slower. There is presently a huge argument as to why the forty was run where it was.
We will update this story as we get more.
Turn the tool factor down. TIA.JMaroney=Speed said:Wow, your starting to show you know something.massraider said:Jerry RiceAnquan BoldinJust wanted to be first.editANG!!
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
He ran that in cross trainers as opposed to the high tech track shoes the others wore. It is very hard to get a good start in sneakers, but once up to top speed there's not that much difference. McFadden runs as fast as Johnson in the right shoes and makes up most of it right out of the blocks.
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EBF
Footballguy
I don't know about that. McFadden is fast. On the field his speed and acceleration are evident. But Johnson stands alone among recent top RB prospects when it comes to speed. Even burners like McFadden, Bush, and Charles don't have that kind of juice.
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gianmarco
Footballguy
"Malcolm Kelly blames his poor Pro Day on Oklahoma University, saying the school didn't tell him the workout would be on FieldTurf until the last minute.
Impact: Kelly said he'd been practicing on Astroturf and running sub-4.5s. On the FieldTurf, he was slow (4.68-4.75). The NFL no longer uses Astroturf, so Kelly's times give a more valuable representation of his straight-line speed."
Impact: Kelly said he'd been practicing on Astroturf and running sub-4.5s. On the FieldTurf, he was slow (4.68-4.75). The NFL no longer uses Astroturf, so Kelly's times give a more valuable representation of his straight-line speed."
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
Great. This kid has had the strangest post season trip to draft day for a possible #1 at his position. He didn't know what surface he was going to run on at his own school? I'm sure he'll run privately for a few teams between now and the draft and we should get more news.
az_prof
Footballguy
Thanks EBF. It would be nice if your examples of WRs included guys who have actually proven that they can play in the NFL though, although I pretty much trust you on a thing like this. So, when people talk about Boldin's 40, my guess would be that he has a good 10 yard time, right? For a WR that would help you get separation and for a RB the initial burst through the line. 40 would come into play more in terms of a a long run or a long run after the catch. Both are important but it seems like the 10 yard time is more important.
at least he ran. I was afraid we were going to get one of those, he tweaked his hammy on the first 40 and shut it down after that.
