Maroney=Speed
Footballguy
4.05
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McFadden Short shuttle (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Maroney=Speed
- Start date
Maroney=Speed
Footballguy
Sorry forgot to add All Day's was 4.08.
rabidfireweasel
Footballguy
Short shuttle for running backs is generally not an indicator of future success. People love to discuss it here, as if it is significant metric. Really, it is about as effective for predicting success for runningbacks as 40 times are for offensive tackles.
EBF
Footballguy
The shuttle and cone times are almost irrelevant. The only time I pay attention to either is when a guy has a truly awful time (Benson had something like a 7.5 in the three cone 
).
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Koya
Footballguy
Does the short shuttle meaasure vision and ability to break tackles? If not, then my sentiments re: McFadden have not changed one bit.
We know the guy is fast. We don't know if he will be a productive NFL back. I havent seen enough to convince me that he will be - so how he is even discussed at 1.1 is beyond me. He's a running back, to boot.
We know the guy is fast. We don't know if he will be a productive NFL back. I havent seen enough to convince me that he will be - so how he is even discussed at 1.1 is beyond me. He's a running back, to boot.
Maroney=Speed
Footballguy
Short shuttle = foot work.Fast and great foot work equal Home Run hitter. What else do you want at 1.01?A slow non foot work guy? Break tackles yes theres film on this. checkFast. checkvision.checkHands.checkFoot work.checkinjury history. Non.checkI say McFadden will now go no later than 5th in NFL Draft. 20 years old, What else do we need to know?
JohnnyU
Footballguy
You predicting he will go no later than #5 is like me predicting the sun will rise tomorrow.....well, maybe not to that extreme
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EBF
Footballguy
Why I don't pay attention to the shuttle: Adrian Peterson - 4.40Marshawn Lynch - 4.58Joseph Addai - 4.48Maurice Drew - 4.41Cedric Humes - 4.23Jerome Harrison - 4.08Mike Bell - 4.24Antonio Pittman - 4.16
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Avery
Footballguy
The short shuttle obviously doesn't equate to guaranteed NFL success.Neither does the bench press, 40 yard dash, thee cone drill, a successful college career or even being a "good character guy", although the latter is less measurable.What it is is another piece of the puzzle of what sort of player McFadden can be and to say that a good time here is meaningless just because it doesn't guarantee success is oversimplifying the issue by discounting something that should be considered... along with everything else.
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EBF
Footballguy
A good shuttle time does not seem to be a pre-requisite for NFL success. In fact, I'm not even sure it correlates with NFL success at all. So why should I pay attention to it?The drills I look at are the ones that seem to offer clues about NFL success (40, broad jump, vertical jump). Most elite RB prospects do well in those drills. I'm not sure that the same is true of the shuttle, which is why I ignore it.
Maroney=Speed
Footballguy
This guy's got it. ' What it is is another piece of the puzzle'McFadden very good college stats, Fast,Vision,foot work,hands.Who else has all of that?Ok, I'll let the rest of ya discuss.
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Avery
Footballguy
Again, not that I'm trying to equate the short shuttle with NFL success or claiming that is is the best indicator of the possibility, this is from National Athletic Testing System definition of the short shuttle:"The short shuttle tests an athlete’s ability to move laterally and his ability to quickly and efficiently change direction in the lateral plane."
That seems difference than just fast and seems like important skills for an NFL back to have; "ability to quickly and efficiently change direction in the lateral plane." sound a lot like a "juke" to me.
switz
Footballguy
EBF, generally I really respect what you have to say about scouting players, but... Do you really believe shuttle and cone are insignificant for RBs?? They are much more significant than vert, broad, and bench IMO.The shuttle and cone times are almost irrelevant. The only time I pay attention to either is when a guy has a truly awful time (Benson had something like a 7.5 in the three cone
).
EBF
Footballguy
Okay, but if guys who can juke do poorly in the drill, then how can the drill be considered a measure of juking ability?No doubt Lynch and Peterson have better shiftiness with the pads on than Mike Bell and Cedric Humes.
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massraider
Footballguy
It's official: I am rooting against DMC to succeed.
Avery
Footballguy
Doing well in a "juking" drill doesn't mean with complete assuredness that a player will juke well in a game. He may have terrible on field "instincts" and read a defensive player poorly. IN much the same vein, if a player lacks top notch juking skills, he may still do well on the field in that respect with uncanny ability to visualize what the opposing defensive player may do and sell a fake.What the skill shows is that a player has the physical ability to do extraordinary well in this regard and, all things being equal, gives him a leg up on his competition. Maybe he lacks the "football smarts" to use this physical skill of change of direction, but to entirely discount it is misinterpreting to results, IMO.
Ron_Mexico
I Love Doggies
Avery
Footballguy
Thank you saving time and skipping the conversation going straight to the conclusion.
Avery
Footballguy
Off-season discussion of new measurable information of (perhaps) the top RB prospect in the draft and (perhaps) the biggest fantasy impact rookie.Or if you like here's the link where you can discuss Charles Grant being stabbed in the and weather it's moral to pregnant women to be in night clubs.Is there a point to this thread?
In other words, not much football going on in March.
happy_donut
Footballguy
The problem is that you offer up a lot of theory without much to back it up.EBF offers up times from past prospects and SHOWS why he thinks the drill is meaningless via comparisons.
Can you counter this argument with hard evidence? If not, the least you can do is agree to disagree. You are certainly welcome to your opinion.
Avery
Footballguy
Would it help if I showed players who did well in the drill and have had great NFL success and visa-versa?Without even looking it up, I would bet that every combine drill and measure of physical prowess would have players scoring well doing poorly in the NFL and players scoring poorly doing well in the NFL. Does that make every measure of strength, speed, stamina and agility are meaningless?
I assert no. It just means that it is not the end of the discussion.
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happy_donut
Footballguy
That would be a good start. Just don't cherry pick.
Where are you going with this? Do you think that every drill at the combine carries the same weight with regard to NFL success? That's what we are really talking about here.
EBF
Footballguy
My argument is pretty simple.
If you look at the vertical leap and the broad jump, you'll notice that the elite prospects tend to well in those drills. They tend to have above average marks compared to the rest of the field. To me this indicates that good numbers in those drills may be a prerequisite for NFL success.
I don't feel that way about the shuttle because there seems to be absolutely no correlation between a player's times and his eventual success.
If you look at the vertical leap and the broad jump, you'll notice that the elite prospects tend to well in those drills. They tend to have above average marks compared to the rest of the field. To me this indicates that good numbers in those drills may be a prerequisite for NFL success.
I don't feel that way about the shuttle because there seems to be absolutely no correlation between a player's times and his eventual success.
Avery
Footballguy
Not picking on EBF, but it seems that EBF cherry picked to prove his point. That's often what statistics are.
If that's what we're talking about here, I guess I missed the point. What I thought the discussion was is whether this drill is meaningless, and while I don't think it is all telling, it is meaningful.
switz
Footballguy
Well let's see - is juking unimportant, is that what the data shows?Maybe Humes can juke really well, but perhaps his 40 times of 4.72 & 4.65 show that he's too slow to use his moves.Or could Mike Bell's 40's of 4.63 & 4.64 be his problem as well?Could Harrison's 4.52 & 4.51 40 times be the problem, or maybe it's the fact he's 5-9.5 201Lbs. It's not like he sucks when he plays, he's just not built to be an every down back.Pulling good shuttle numbers off poor RBs and ignoring those players "real" weaknesses to try to prove a point is a flawed argument.
happy_donut
Footballguy
I disagree that statistics are often cherry picking. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.
Ok, so you think it's meaningful but you can't offer any numbers to back it up. Just theories on why it, "should" be meaningful.Not that you should care, but I'm not convinced.
Maroney=Speed
Footballguy
Is it just me or does Maroney=Speed have a mancrush on McFadden.
Maroney=Speed have a mancrush on switz. 
I will start to email you, you seem to get my point across better then I do. Thanks
happy_donut
Footballguy
The point was that those poor RBs had good shuttle time. Better than some elite RBs.
switz
Footballguy
Here is a sampling of the some of the best Vertical leaps by RBs in the past 8 years...William Green 42"Tony Fisher 41.5Curtis Keaton 41.5Josh Scobey 40.5Darius Walker 40.5Cedric Cobbs 40.5Correll Buckhalter 40Michael Bennett 39.5Doug Chapman 38.5Tatum Bell 38.5Eric Shelton 38.5Kolby Smith 38Anthony Davis 38Ladell Betts 38Kenny Irons 38Kevin Jones 38Kay-Jay Harris 38Reggie White 37.5Among the worst in the last 8 years are: Reuben Droughns and Jammal CharlesBroad Jump? Jerome Harrison had among the best in the past 8 years, so did Eric Shelton, Doug Chapman, Curtis Keaton, etc. ...I will give you that Broad Jump does seem to be a slightly better indicator of success than any other stat I've seen so far - no stud is among the worst, and a number of studs are among the best.However, I don't think you can say the correlation between vert and success is ANY better than that between shuttle or cone and success.
Avery
Footballguy
... and Jerry Rice wasn't particularly fast or tall for a WR while Matt Jones is.Does that make those qualities unimportant?
happy_donut
Footballguy
That is what I mean by cherry picking. Don't just give the exceptions.
EBF
Footballguy
People sometimes misunderstand my fascination with the vertical leap. There's a big difference between saying that most elite RB prospects do well in the vertical leap and saying most prospects who do well in the vertical leap are good prospects. Those are two very different statements.
Good combine numbers don't ensure success, but relatively few backs are successful without good combine numbers. This typically holds true in the 40, vertical leap, and broad jump. You won't see many elite pro runners fail to crack 4.65, 35", or 9'10" in these drills. But you'll see plenty who had poor shuttle times. To me this means the shuttle isn't a prerequisite for NFL success. In other words, it's not worth paying attention to.
Good combine numbers don't ensure success, but relatively few backs are successful without good combine numbers. This typically holds true in the 40, vertical leap, and broad jump. You won't see many elite pro runners fail to crack 4.65, 35", or 9'10" in these drills. But you'll see plenty who had poor shuttle times. To me this means the shuttle isn't a prerequisite for NFL success. In other words, it's not worth paying attention to.
switz
Footballguy
And there are some poor RBs with better verts and better broad jumps than many STUD RBs... so I guess you just throw out verts and broads as indicators of success as well. Right?No, bottom line is that EVERY measurement when taken in context is to a degree an indicator of success. You can't just disregard any and say it's totally meaningless.
Avery
Footballguy
But that's exactly what EBF too did and that's my point!
happy_donut
Footballguy
Who said throw out the baby with the bathwater?Just because I discount the shuttle, does not mean the whole combine is meaningless. That's just a terrible argument.
Michael Fox Fan
Footballguy
Translation. For combine metrics that are meaningful:1. Good combine number do not predict success2. However, really bad combined numbers do predict failureEBF is saying that, looking at the statistics, short shuttle fails on item #2. Plenty of players have poor short shuttle times but still are successful RBs. In contrast, that tends NOT to be true for the 40, vertical leap, and broad jump.EBF has made this so simple to understand, I really don't get why people are struggling to comprehend this.
happy_donut
Footballguy
If that's what he did, you should be able to come up with some factual data that supports you. Numbers, man. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just asking that you prove it.But that's exactly what EBF too did and that's my point!
Maroney=Speed
Footballguy
So IF you have pick 1.01 who are you picking? I don't have pick 1.01 and without question would pick McFadden. If I had pick 1.01 it would take alot to trade it. I believe this year there's a huge gap between pick 1.01 and 1.02. I also believe there's a huge gap between 1.02 and 1.03, not so big between 1.03-1.05. I know it's just me.1.011.021.031.041.05That's how I see it.
EBF
Footballguy
happy_donut
Footballguy
I don't have the 1.01, but I would take McFadden. I have the top three a lot closer than you do but it's still McFadden.It's not because of the shuttle time though.
Michael Fox Fan
Footballguy
ThePittbully
Footballguy
As much McFadden hype as you spew around here, I am utterly shocked you dont own the 1.1 and aren't willing to pay the price to trade for it
Burning Sensation
Footballguy
When it comes to liking Mcfadden, everyone falls somewhere between Maroney=Speed and EBF. I stopped listening to both of them long ago....at least when it comes to DMac.
