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Cutler will not report on Monday (1 Viewer)

Ghost Rider said:
twitch said:
of course. Plummer plays and wins, the defense is on fire. Cutler plays and loses, the defense was terrible. I'll take that into account. Look, obviously Plummer's #s were bad in '06. But they werent a year earlier when he led that team to 13 wins and a monster win against New England in the playoffs, which is no small feat. He didnt just wake up one morning at 31 years old and suddenly suck. Was he having a bad year? By the #s, yes. Was the team winning? Obviously. Should a guy get benched in favor of a rookie when he's led the team to a 7-4 record? Dont even bother answering that question. We both know what it is.
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Your sarcasm indicates that you are either not getting it or are refusing to concede this point because you are another one of those internet tough guys who hates to admit that he is wrong. But I will spell it out for you: In the 11 games Plummer played:-the offense averaged 18 points per game-the defense allowed 15 points per gameIn the 5 games Cutler played:-the offense averaged 25 points per game-the defense allowed 28 points per gameAlso, the defense allowed 24 points per game in Plummer's last five games (where the team went 2-3), after allowing only 7 points per game in the first six (where the team went 5-1). The offense scored 20 points or more with Plummer in '06 three times in 11 games. With Cutler, they scored 20 points or more in all five games. This is really not open to debate. The offense was much better with Cutler in '06 than with Plummer. Everything you look at tells this. Everything. Really, it is as plain as day for anyone with two eyes and an objective mind to see.
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So as usual, anyone with Cutler as their fantasy QB was more than adequatley rewarded. And any Broncos fan actually hoping for wins wasnt. Sure. That's pretty clear. Peyton Manning thrived for years with a scrub-like defense. Tom Brady won A SB with a D that was ranked something like 24th in the league. A QB and his playing style, controlling the game, protecting the football, moving the chains and controlling the clock, and providing actual leadership to the entire team, can help out a defense alot more than youre suggesting here. Its called game management. Some QBs have figured it out. And others just put up great fantasy #s.
 
gianmarco said:
Kit Fisto said:
Maybe I'm not the first to say it, but what exactly has Jay Cutler accomplished in his career for these histrionics to be justified?I own Cutler on a fantasy team, and I love having him, but dude, you're not all that. If Wayne Gretzky can get traded, so can you. Sack up. :cry:
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Pro Bowl, 4500 yds passing, Team Captain, popularly viewed as face of the franchise. Like him or not, he's viewed as a top, young QB with oodles of potential. May not be enough for you, but he's got a LOT of leverage in this. Just as the Broncos can talk about trading him because it's "a business", likewise Cutler can act like a baby and threaten a holdout as he's only set to make $1 million this year. Since "it's a business", you know? Why does Cutler have to "sack up"? Why can't Denver "sack up"? Especially since they are set to lose a lot more than Cutler does. Cutler will have a starting QB job in the league and a big contract to go with it at some point no matter what happens here. Denver might spend the next several years looking for a replacement.
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I think the Broncos will have to "sack up" in some way, shape or form now. The angry QB and his agent are off their leashes. This current mess was foreseeable even by most armchair GMs like us. The interesting part for me is, what did the Broncos expect?
 
gianmarco said:
Kit Fisto said:
Maybe I'm not the first to say it, but what exactly has Jay Cutler accomplished in his career for these histrionics to be justified?I own Cutler on a fantasy team, and I love having him, but dude, you're not all that. If Wayne Gretzky can get traded, so can you. Sack up. :cry:
Click to expand...
Pro Bowl, 4500 yds passing, Team Captain, popularly viewed as face of the franchise. Like him or not, he's viewed as a top, young QB with oodles of potential. May not be enough for you, but he's got a LOT of leverage in this. Just as the Broncos can talk about trading him because it's "a business", likewise Cutler can act like a baby and threaten a holdout as he's only set to make $1 million this year. Since "it's a business", you know? Why does Cutler have to "sack up"? Why can't Denver "sack up"? Especially since they are set to lose a lot more than Cutler does. Cutler will have a starting QB job in the league and a big contract to go with it at some point no matter what happens here. Denver might spend the next several years looking for a replacement.
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:cry: Let's put it this way:If the Broncos released Cutler today, how many teams would be tripping over themselves to try and sign him? On the flip side, if the Broncos fired McDaniels today, how many teams would be tripping over themselves to try and make him their coach?
 
gianmarco said:
Kit Fisto said:
Maybe I'm not the first to say it, but what exactly has Jay Cutler accomplished in his career for these histrionics to be justified?I own Cutler on a fantasy team, and I love having him, but dude, you're not all that. If Wayne Gretzky can get traded, so can you. Sack up. :cry:
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Pro Bowl, 4500 yds passing, Team Captain, popularly viewed as face of the franchise. Like him or not, he's viewed as a top, young QB with oodles of potential. May not be enough for you, but he's got a LOT of leverage in this. Just as the Broncos can talk about trading him because it's "a business", likewise Cutler can act like a baby and threaten a holdout as he's only set to make $1 million this year. Since "it's a business", you know?
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I thought he was set to make $7m this year.
 
twitch said:
Ghost Rider said:
twitch said:
of course. Plummer plays and wins, the defense is on fire. Cutler plays and loses, the defense was terrible. I'll take that into account. Look, obviously Plummer's #s were bad in '06. But they werent a year earlier when he led that team to 13 wins and a monster win against New England in the playoffs, which is no small feat. He didnt just wake up one morning at 31 years old and suddenly suck. Was he having a bad year? By the #s, yes. Was the team winning? Obviously. Should a guy get benched in favor of a rookie when he's led the team to a 7-4 record? Dont even bother answering that question. We both know what it is.
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Your sarcasm indicates that you are either not getting it or are refusing to concede this point because you are another one of those internet tough guys who hates to admit that he is wrong. But I will spell it out for you: In the 11 games Plummer played:-the offense averaged 18 points per game-the defense allowed 15 points per gameIn the 5 games Cutler played:-the offense averaged 25 points per game-the defense allowed 28 points per gameAlso, the defense allowed 24 points per game in Plummer's last five games (where the team went 2-3), after allowing only 7 points per game in the first six (where the team went 5-1). The offense scored 20 points or more with Plummer in '06 three times in 11 games. With Cutler, they scored 20 points or more in all five games. This is really not open to debate. The offense was much better with Cutler in '06 than with Plummer. Everything you look at tells this. Everything. Really, it is as plain as day for anyone with two eyes and an objective mind to see.
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So as usual, anyone with Cutler as their fantasy QB was more than adequatley rewarded. And any Broncos fan actually hoping for wins wasnt. Sure. That's pretty clear. Peyton Manning thrived for years with a scrub-like defense. Tom Brady won A SB with a D that was ranked something like 24th in the league. A QB and his playing style, controlling the game, protecting the football, moving the chains and controlling the clock, and providing actual leadership to the entire team, can help out a defense alot more than youre suggesting here. Its called game management. Some QBs have figured it out. And others just put up great fantasy #s.
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:cry: at you pulling out the fantasy football card. Oh, so a QB who puts up more points is only good for fantasy football now? That's rich. I guess Brett Favre really was better than Philip Rivers last year, then, right? After all, Favre's team won more games in the regular season, while Rivers was busy just putting up good fantasy numbers while his team went 8-8, so Favre was better, right? Also, if you would pay attention, I am a Broncos fan, and couldn't care less about fantasy football when it comes to what the Broncos do in regards to trying to win.Lastly, that Patriots defense was that 24th in total yards was 6th in points allowed. Just an FYI.
 
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twitch said:
Is a coach LYING supposed to be news nowadays??
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Team morale and performance is still a big deal. How coaches treat their players (and a big part of this is how honest they are with the players) affects morale, which affects performance. Morale is negatively affected by lying to players, and performance can be too. Players buy in and perform (or don't buy in and don't perform) based partly on how they're treated, just like other adults in other professions.
 
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twitch said:
Im not gonna make a case for Frerotte, who'll be a 38 year old journeyman who's played for 7 different teams heading into the season. Im not going to hate on a team for wanting more stability out of their QB situation. But Frerotte did win. And maybe you should ask the Minnesota fan base about that one, and just how much they like their Head Coach. But, apply that logic to the Kerry Collins situation though, and you'll have your answer.
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but your implication is that a guy with a winning record like that shouldn't be replaced and the fact that Shanny did, he somehow LIED which is ridiculous IMO. Maybe you could argue that he made a mistake (which he didn't) but that doesn't constitute a lie which the flaw of your entire premise. I, of course, would never argue in favor of Frerotte just like I wouldn't/didn't argue in favor of Plummer at the time and it's because they were/are both bad QB's and should be replaced regardless of their record.
 
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Let's put it this way:If the Broncos released Cutler today, how many teams would be tripping over themselves to try and sign him? On the flip side, if the Broncos fired McDaniels today, how many teams would be tripping over themselves to try and make him their coach?
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Teams tripping over Cutler - Detroit, Chicago, Tampa, maybe Minnesota or San Fran. And considering those teams' options at QB, understandably. Teams tripping over McDaniels - New England. He'd get a job back with that team in a heartbeat. Obviously.
 
twitch said:
Let's put it this way:If the Broncos released Cutler today, how many teams would be tripping over themselves to try and sign him? On the flip side, if the Broncos fired McDaniels today, how many teams would be tripping over themselves to try and make him their coach?
Click to expand...
Teams tripping over Cutler - Detroit, Chicago, Tampa, maybe Minnesota or San Fran. And considering those teams' options at QB, understandably. Teams tripping over McDaniels - New England. He'd get a job back with that team in a heartbeat. Obviously.
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So, in other words, no team would want McDaniels as their HEAD coach, right? Pretty obvious who is more valuable here.
 
treat88 said:
When in doubt, follow the money.Cutler/Cook want a new deal.
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this is a very good point.cutler has gone on and on about how the broncos have made it clear that they don't want him, but he's also said "Josh has never said anything negative to me about my play or anything else, for that matter."sounds like they could be using this to get the broncos to go overboard to show their commitment.
 
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twitch said:
Let's put it this way:If the Broncos released Cutler today, how many teams would be tripping over themselves to try and sign him? On the flip side, if the Broncos fired McDaniels today, how many teams would be tripping over themselves to try and make him their coach?
Click to expand...
Teams tripping over Cutler - Detroit, Chicago, Tampa, maybe Minnesota or San Fran. And considering those teams' options at QB, understandably. Teams tripping over McDaniels - New England. He'd get a job back with that team in a heartbeat. Obviously.
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as a HC?
 
-baller said:
gianmarco said:
Kit Fisto said:
Maybe I'm not the first to say it, but what exactly has Jay Cutler accomplished in his career for these histrionics to be justified?I own Cutler on a fantasy team, and I love having him, but dude, you're not all that. If Wayne Gretzky can get traded, so can you. Sack up. :confused:
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Pro Bowl, 4500 yds passing, Team Captain, popularly viewed as face of the franchise. Like him or not, he's viewed as a top, young QB with oodles of potential. May not be enough for you, but he's got a LOT of leverage in this. Just as the Broncos can talk about trading him because it's "a business", likewise Cutler can act like a baby and threaten a holdout as he's only set to make $1 million this year. Since "it's a business", you know?
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I thought he was set to make $7m this year.
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No, his base salary is $1 million. He has about $ 4 million in escalators if he plays a certain % of snaps which he should hit and another $ 2 million in performance escalators depending on his #'s. However, given McDaniels behavior thus far, it's not out of the realm of possibility that he benches Cutler. So Cutler could definitely be looking at this from a monetary standpoint.
 
Banger said:
twitch said:
Im not gonna make a case for Frerotte, who'll be a 38 year old journeyman who's played for 7 different teams heading into the season. Im not going to hate on a team for wanting more stability out of their QB situation. But Frerotte did win. And maybe you should ask the Minnesota fan base about that one, and just how much they like their Head Coach. But, apply that logic to the Kerry Collins situation though, and you'll have your answer.
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but your implication is that a guy with a winning record like that shouldn't be replaced and the fact that Shanny did, he somehow LIED which is ridiculous IMO. Maybe you could argue that he made a mistake (which he didn't) but that doesn't constitute a lie which the flaw of your entire premise. I, of course, would never argue in favor of Frerotte just like I wouldn't/didn't argue in favor of Plummer at the time and it's because they were/are both bad QB's.
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No matter what Plummer's #s were, that team was 7 games up, 4 down. And Shanahan thought a ROOKIE was gonna better that percentage? He honestly thought that and stated it?? That was a flat out LIE. No two ways about it. He wanted to go with his young stud-like golden boy. He did make a calculation. And he was wrong. But to think he honestly believed he'd win at a higher clip than 7/11 with a completely unproven QB leading that team was nothing less than disingenuous. And he suffered a fate probably fitting.
 
gianmarco said:
-baller said:
gianmarco said:
Kit Fisto said:
Maybe I'm not the first to say it, but what exactly has Jay Cutler accomplished in his career for these histrionics to be justified?

I own Cutler on a fantasy team, and I love having him, but dude, you're not all that. If Wayne Gretzky can get traded, so can you. Sack up. :cry:
Click to expand...
Pro Bowl, 4500 yds passing, Team Captain, popularly viewed as face of the franchise. Like him or not, he's viewed as a top, young QB with oodles of potential. May not be enough for you, but he's got a LOT of leverage in this. Just as the Broncos can talk about trading him because it's "a business", likewise Cutler can act like a baby and threaten a holdout as he's only set to make $1 million this year. Since "it's a business", you know?
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I thought he was set to make $7m this year.
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No, his base salary is $1 million. He has about $ 4 million in escalators if he plays a certain % of snaps which he should hit and another $ 2 million in performance escalators depending on his #'s. However, given McDaniels behavior thus far, it's not out of the realm of possibility that he benches Cutler. So Cutler could definitely be looking at this from a monetary standpoint.
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:confused:
 
-baller said:
gianmarco said:
Kit Fisto said:
Maybe I'm not the first to say it, but what exactly has Jay Cutler accomplished in his career for these histrionics to be justified?I own Cutler on a fantasy team, and I love having him, but dude, you're not all that. If Wayne Gretzky can get traded, so can you. Sack up. :confused:
Click to expand...
Pro Bowl, 4500 yds passing, Team Captain, popularly viewed as face of the franchise. Like him or not, he's viewed as a top, young QB with oodles of potential. May not be enough for you, but he's got a LOT of leverage in this. Just as the Broncos can talk about trading him because it's "a business", likewise Cutler can act like a baby and threaten a holdout as he's only set to make $1 million this year. Since "it's a business", you know?
Click to expand...
I thought he was set to make $7m this year.
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Had he been Denver's starter for the entire season, he probably would be in line to make about $7mm.$1.035mm base salary$4.0mm bonus for taking 70% of the team's snaps$1.9+mm bonus for finishing in the top 5 of any major passing category [which I believe to be completions, yards, TDs, passer rating]But certainly had the team traded for Cassel, or benched Cutler b/c of a disagreement, he would make a whopping $1.035mm. Before anyone decries that as "a lot of money" we're speaking in the context of the NFL players and their typical compensation.
 
twitch said:
Banger said:
twitch said:
Im not gonna make a case for Frerotte, who'll be a 38 year old journeyman who's played for 7 different teams heading into the season. Im not going to hate on a team for wanting more stability out of their QB situation. But Frerotte did win. And maybe you should ask the Minnesota fan base about that one, and just how much they like their Head Coach. But, apply that logic to the Kerry Collins situation though, and you'll have your answer.
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but your implication is that a guy with a winning record like that shouldn't be replaced and the fact that Shanny did, he somehow LIED which is ridiculous IMO. Maybe you could argue that he made a mistake (which he didn't) but that doesn't constitute a lie which the flaw of your entire premise. I, of course, would never argue in favor of Frerotte just like I wouldn't/didn't argue in favor of Plummer at the time and it's because they were/are both bad QB's.
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No matter what Plummer's #s were, that team was 7 games up, 4 down. And Shanahan thought a ROOKIE was gonna better that percentage? He honestly thought that and stated it?? That was a flat out LIE. No two ways about it. He wanted to go with his young stud-like golden boy. He did make a calculation. And he was wrong. But to think he honestly believed he'd win at a higher clip than 7/11 with a completely unproven QB leading that team was nothing less than disingenuous. And he suffered a fate probably fitting.
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no wasn't because in short order Cutler has become a pro-bowl player and how many games did Plummer play after that (let alone win)? You may not agree with the decision but in way does that constitute a LIE, that's just silly and trying to come up with a Shanny "lie". I'm sure he's lied but that's not a good example.
 
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Banger said:
twitch said:
Let's put it this way:

If the Broncos released Cutler today, how many teams would be tripping over themselves to try and sign him?

On the flip side, if the Broncos fired McDaniels today, how many teams would be tripping over themselves to try and make him their coach?
Click to expand...
Teams tripping over Cutler - Detroit, Chicago, Tampa, maybe Minnesota or San Fran. And considering those teams' options at QB, understandably. Teams tripping over McDaniels - New England. He'd get a job back with that team in a heartbeat. Obviously.
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as a HC?
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Did I miss the term "head" in there somewhere? And do you honestly think that's even a fair comparison, suggesting some team would just fire their head coach right now for any coach? I dont see anyone tripping over themselves to get to Holmgren or Gruden right now, either. Does that make them bad coaches?? QBs are obviously easily replaced on the fly. HCs, not so much.

 
If Cutler went to Tampa, I would say they would have to be taken seriously as a Super Bowl contender within the next 3 years.

 
I know I'm over-simplifying this, but I think the argument of "I'm so mad about being considered for a trade that I demand to be traded" is fantastically ironic.

 
twitch said:
Banger said:
twitch said:
Im not gonna make a case for Frerotte, who'll be a 38 year old journeyman who's played for 7 different teams heading into the season. Im not going to hate on a team for wanting more stability out of their QB situation. But Frerotte did win. And maybe you should ask the Minnesota fan base about that one, and just how much they like their Head Coach. But, apply that logic to the Kerry Collins situation though, and you'll have your answer.
Click to expand...
but your implication is that a guy with a winning record like that shouldn't be replaced and the fact that Shanny did, he somehow LIED which is ridiculous IMO. Maybe you could argue that he made a mistake (which he didn't) but that doesn't constitute a lie which the flaw of your entire premise. I, of course, would never argue in favor of Frerotte just like I wouldn't/didn't argue in favor of Plummer at the time and it's because they were/are both bad QB's.
Click to expand...
No matter what Plummer's #s were, that team was 7 games up, 4 down. And Shanahan thought a ROOKIE was gonna better that percentage? He honestly thought that and stated it?? That was a flat out LIE. No two ways about it. He wanted to go with his young stud-like golden boy. He did make a calculation. And he was wrong. But to think he honestly believed he'd win at a higher clip than 7/11 with a completely unproven QB leading that team was nothing less than disingenuous. And he suffered a fate probably fitting.
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Yep, the only thing to judge a QB by is W/L record. Kerry Collins was better than Philip Rivers last season.

Kyle Orton was better than Drew Brees.

According to twitch logic, this would be correct, because wins are all that matter, and numbers only matter in fantasy football.

 
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Banger said:
twitch said:
Banger said:
twitch said:
Im not gonna make a case for Frerotte, who'll be a 38 year old journeyman who's played for 7 different teams heading into the season. Im not going to hate on a team for wanting more stability out of their QB situation. But Frerotte did win. And maybe you should ask the Minnesota fan base about that one, and just how much they like their Head Coach. But, apply that logic to the Kerry Collins situation though, and you'll have your answer.
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but your implication is that a guy with a winning record like that shouldn't be replaced and the fact that Shanny did, he somehow LIED which is ridiculous IMO. Maybe you could argue that he made a mistake (which he didn't) but that doesn't constitute a lie which the flaw of your entire premise. I, of course, would never argue in favor of Frerotte just like I wouldn't/didn't argue in favor of Plummer at the time and it's because they were/are both bad QB's.
Click to expand...
No matter what Plummer's #s were, that team was 7 games up, 4 down. And Shanahan thought a ROOKIE was gonna better that percentage? He honestly thought that and stated it?? That was a flat out LIE. No two ways about it. He wanted to go with his young stud-like golden boy. He did make a calculation. And he was wrong. But to think he honestly believed he'd win at a higher clip than 7/11 with a completely unproven QB leading that team was nothing less than disingenuous. And he suffered a fate probably fitting.
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no wasn't because in short order Cutler has become a pro-bowl player and how many games did Plummer play after that? You may not agree with the decision but in way does that constitute a LIE, that's just silly and trying to come up with a Shanny "lie". I'm sure he's lied but that's not a good example.
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Youre nitpicking to the Nth degree over this, considering the miserable win/loss record of rookie QBs in this league. And that's rookie QBs with an actual history of winning. But I'll let it go. Im not here to continue to fry Shanahan. Its an opinion that Shanahan lied, and I'll concede that.
 
gianmarco said:
-baller said:
gianmarco said:
Kit Fisto said:
Maybe I'm not the first to say it, but what exactly has Jay Cutler accomplished in his career for these histrionics to be justified?

I own Cutler on a fantasy team, and I love having him, but dude, you're not all that. If Wayne Gretzky can get traded, so can you. Sack up. :thumbup:
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Pro Bowl, 4500 yds passing, Team Captain, popularly viewed as face of the franchise. Like him or not, he's viewed as a top, young QB with oodles of potential. May not be enough for you, but he's got a LOT of leverage in this. Just as the Broncos can talk about trading him because it's "a business", likewise Cutler can act like a baby and threaten a holdout as he's only set to make $1 million this year. Since "it's a business", you know?
Click to expand...
I thought he was set to make $7m this year.
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No, his base salary is $1 million. He has about $ 4 million in escalators if he plays a certain % of snaps which he should hit and another $ 2 million in performance escalators depending on his #'s. However, given McDaniels behavior thus far, it's not out of the realm of possibility that he benches Cutler. So Cutler could definitely be looking at this from a monetary standpoint.
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really?he's going to bench cutler?

who's he going to start over cutler?

on the one hand, you spin it that he's only making 1m, then you tell me he's getting another 4m for a % of snaps which he should hit.

I think you are possibly more dishonest than mcdaniels and cutler rolled together.

 
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twitch said:
Banger said:
twitch said:
Banger said:
twitch said:
Im not gonna make a case for Frerotte, who'll be a 38 year old journeyman who's played for 7 different teams heading into the season. Im not going to hate on a team for wanting more stability out of their QB situation. But Frerotte did win. And maybe you should ask the Minnesota fan base about that one, and just how much they like their Head Coach. But, apply that logic to the Kerry Collins situation though, and you'll have your answer.
Click to expand...
but your implication is that a guy with a winning record like that shouldn't be replaced and the fact that Shanny did, he somehow LIED which is ridiculous IMO. Maybe you could argue that he made a mistake (which he didn't) but that doesn't constitute a lie which the flaw of your entire premise. I, of course, would never argue in favor of Frerotte just like I wouldn't/didn't argue in favor of Plummer at the time and it's because they were/are both bad QB's.
Click to expand...
No matter what Plummer's #s were, that team was 7 games up, 4 down. And Shanahan thought a ROOKIE was gonna better that percentage? He honestly thought that and stated it?? That was a flat out LIE. No two ways about it. He wanted to go with his young stud-like golden boy. He did make a calculation. And he was wrong. But to think he honestly believed he'd win at a higher clip than 7/11 with a completely unproven QB leading that team was nothing less than disingenuous. And he suffered a fate probably fitting.
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no wasn't because in short order Cutler has become a pro-bowl player and how many games did Plummer play after that? You may not agree with the decision but in way does that constitute a LIE, that's just silly and trying to come up with a Shanny "lie". I'm sure he's lied but that's not a good example.
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Youre nitpicking to the Nth degree over this, considering the miserable win/loss record of rookie QBs in this league. And that's rookie QBs with an actual history of winning. But I'll let it go. Im not here to continue to fry Shanahan. Its an opinion that Shanahan lied, and I'll concede that.
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thank you :thumbup:
 
Ghost Rider said:
twitch said:
Banger said:
twitch said:
Im not gonna make a case for Frerotte, who'll be a 38 year old journeyman who's played for 7 different teams heading into the season. Im not going to hate on a team for wanting more stability out of their QB situation. But Frerotte did win. And maybe you should ask the Minnesota fan base about that one, and just how much they like their Head Coach. But, apply that logic to the Kerry Collins situation though, and you'll have your answer.
Click to expand...
but your implication is that a guy with a winning record like that shouldn't be replaced and the fact that Shanny did, he somehow LIED which is ridiculous IMO. Maybe you could argue that he made a mistake (which he didn't) but that doesn't constitute a lie which the flaw of your entire premise. I, of course, would never argue in favor of Frerotte just like I wouldn't/didn't argue in favor of Plummer at the time and it's because they were/are both bad QB's.
Click to expand...
No matter what Plummer's #s were, that team was 7 games up, 4 down. And Shanahan thought a ROOKIE was gonna better that percentage? He honestly thought that and stated it?? That was a flat out LIE. No two ways about it. He wanted to go with his young stud-like golden boy. He did make a calculation. And he was wrong. But to think he honestly believed he'd win at a higher clip than 7/11 with a completely unproven QB leading that team was nothing less than disingenuous. And he suffered a fate probably fitting.
Click to expand...
Yep, the only thing to judge a QB by is W/L record. Kerry Collins was better than Philip Rivers last season.

Kyle Orton was better than Drew Brees.

According to twitch logic, this would be correct, because wins are all that matter, and numbers only matter in fantasy football.
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That's the most boring, over-played twist of logic applied anywhere. So, congratulations on your originality and genius.
 
twitch said:
That's the most boring, over-played twist of logic applied anywhere.
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No, it isn't. You are the one saying that Plummer's 7-4 record is all that matters, and the one who is dismissing Cutler's superior numbers (as well as the numbers of the overall offense being significantly better) as being merely good for padding his fantasy stats. Are you denying you said this, because it is in this thread for all to read (assuming you haven't edited your posts since).
 
twitch said:
Banger said:
twitch said:
Im not gonna make a case for Frerotte, who'll be a 38 year old journeyman who's played for 7 different teams heading into the season. Im not going to hate on a team for wanting more stability out of their QB situation. But Frerotte did win. And maybe you should ask the Minnesota fan base about that one, and just how much they like their Head Coach. But, apply that logic to the Kerry Collins situation though, and you'll have your answer.
Click to expand...
but your implication is that a guy with a winning record like that shouldn't be replaced and the fact that Shanny did, he somehow LIED which is ridiculous IMO. Maybe you could argue that he made a mistake (which he didn't) but that doesn't constitute a lie which the flaw of your entire premise. I, of course, would never argue in favor of Frerotte just like I wouldn't/didn't argue in favor of Plummer at the time and it's because they were/are both bad QB's.
Click to expand...
No matter what Plummer's #s were, that team was 7 games up, 4 down. And Shanahan thought a ROOKIE was gonna better that percentage? He honestly thought that and stated it?? That was a flat out LIE. No two ways about it. He wanted to go with his young stud-like golden boy. He did make a calculation. And he was wrong. But to think he honestly believed he'd win at a higher clip than 7/11 with a completely unproven QB leading that team was nothing less than disingenuous. And he suffered a fate probably fitting.
Click to expand...
How can you possibly say that was a flay out lie? Were you in the practices every day? were you studying film every night? Were you in training camp, judging relative performance? Seems to me that without first hand knowlege of the situation, you have no possible idea who gave the team a better chance to succeed.
 
twitch said:
So as usual, anyone with Cutler as their fantasy QB was more than adequatley rewarded. And any Broncos fan actually hoping for wins wasnt. Sure. That's pretty clear. Peyton Manning thrived for years with a scrub-like defense. Tom Brady won A SB with a D that was ranked something like 24th in the league. A QB and his playing style, controlling the game, protecting the football, moving the chains and controlling the clock, and providing actual leadership to the entire team, can help out a defense alot more than youre suggesting here. Its called game management. Some QBs have figured it out. And others just put up great fantasy #s.
Click to expand...
Exactly my thoughts. If you watched the games, which I as a Bronco fan did, it was apparent to me that JC just doesn't have the leadership skills or maturity to manage a game / team effectively. His temper tantrums on field followed by "3 and outs", yelling at the receivers for dropping a ball ( a more mature QB would've slapped him on the helmut and thrown his way ASAP), his lack of sideline presence. You can easily see when he gets flustered, and his play reflects it. And don't get me started on triple coverage passes... he really thinks his arm is that good.???He put up great numbers because Shanny put a system in that used his arm extensively. The D sucked, so they HAD to pass more than they should have. Personally, I think Shanny turned this team into a circus with his poor drafts and free agent pickups. Although I think McD handled this situation very poorly, I think he is trying to build a team of "ballers" that will buy in to his schemes. IMHO, he knew from the Jeremy Bates firing that Cutler wasn't likely to play nice.Good riddance Jay... have fun trying to find that panacea you think you'll get in a "long term committment".
 
Despyzer said:
I know I'm over-simplifying this, but I think the argument of "I'm so mad about being considered for a trade that I demand to be traded" is fantastically ironic.
Click to expand...
If you think he's mad about "being considered for a trade" as opposed to "coach lied to me about trying to trade me", then I don't think anyone here can help you.
 
twitch said:
Ghost Rider said:
twitch said:
Banger said:
twitch said:
Im not gonna make a case for Frerotte, who'll be a 38 year old journeyman who's played for 7 different teams heading into the season. Im not going to hate on a team for wanting more stability out of their QB situation. But Frerotte did win. And maybe you should ask the Minnesota fan base about that one, and just how much they like their Head Coach. But, apply that logic to the Kerry Collins situation though, and you'll have your answer.
Click to expand...
but your implication is that a guy with a winning record like that shouldn't be replaced and the fact that Shanny did, he somehow LIED which is ridiculous IMO. Maybe you could argue that he made a mistake (which he didn't) but that doesn't constitute a lie which the flaw of your entire premise. I, of course, would never argue in favor of Frerotte just like I wouldn't/didn't argue in favor of Plummer at the time and it's because they were/are both bad QB's.
Click to expand...
No matter what Plummer's #s were, that team was 7 games up, 4 down. And Shanahan thought a ROOKIE was gonna better that percentage? He honestly thought that and stated it?? That was a flat out LIE. No two ways about it. He wanted to go with his young stud-like golden boy. He did make a calculation. And he was wrong. But to think he honestly believed he'd win at a higher clip than 7/11 with a completely unproven QB leading that team was nothing less than disingenuous. And he suffered a fate probably fitting.
Click to expand...
Yep, the only thing to judge a QB by is W/L record. Kerry Collins was better than Philip Rivers last season.

Kyle Orton was better than Drew Brees.

According to twitch logic, this would be correct, because wins are all that matter, and numbers only matter in fantasy football.
Click to expand...
That's the most boring, over-played twist of logic applied anywhere. So, congratulations on your originality and genius.
Click to expand...
Guys...this is EXACTLY what we talk about when we say, "lower the signal to noise." You each view this differently. You each made your case. Now it's turning into a personal attack on each other BECAUSE you disagree? Can the hyperbole. Can the pointed one-line insults. There's NO place for it anymore.

Note: In the not-to-distant future, posts like this are very likely to be deleted in order to keep the threads clean of this personal back and forth. But for now, I'm going to keep this in here to illustrate the kinds of things we're cracking down on. Many of you have asked for examples of what kinds of things we're talking about reining in, and this is one of them.

 
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ConstruxBoy said:
Despyzer said:
I know I'm over-simplifying this, but I think the argument of "I'm so mad about being considered for a trade that I demand to be traded" is fantastically ironic.
Click to expand...
If you think he's mad about "being considered for a trade" as opposed to "coach lied to me about trying to trade me", then I don't think anyone here can help you.
Click to expand...
I would say it's more about the message that despite not being on the field together for one minute, McDaniels decided they would win more games with Matt Cassel.
 
charlatan said:
If you watched the games, which I as a Bronco fan did, it was apparent to me that JC just doesn't have the leadership skills or maturity to manage a game / team effectively. His temper tantrums on field followed by "3 and outs", yelling at the receivers for dropping a ball ( a more mature QB would've slapped him on the helmut and thrown his way ASAP), his lack of sideline presence. You can easily see when he gets flustered, and his play reflects it. And don't get me started on triple coverage passes... he really thinks his arm is that good.???
Click to expand...
I agree that he throws into coverages too often sometimes. In a sense, he is like Brett Favre in that he has almost too much confidence in his arms, to the point where he makes throws that he shouldn't. As for his on-the-field demeanor, I think that is overrated. Heck, Peyton Manning still hangs his head and gives that "aw, shucks" look following an INT or dropped pass, and I don't see anyone challenging his maturity. I also saw Kurt Warner getting aggravated at a few dropped passes last year, too. There is definitely a point where it can be too much, but Cutler is still maturing as an NFL QB and should get better at displaying such annoyances, most likely.
 
habsfan said:
ConstruxBoy said:
Despyzer said:
I know I'm over-simplifying this, but I think the argument of "I'm so mad about being considered for a trade that I demand to be traded" is fantastically ironic.
Click to expand...
If you think he's mad about "being considered for a trade" as opposed to "coach lied to me about trying to trade me", then I don't think anyone here can help you.
Click to expand...
I would say it's more about the message that despite not being on the field together for one minute, McDaniels decided they would win more games with Matt Cassel.
Click to expand...
I wonder how Cassel is affected by all of this? What do people think?
 
Jason Wood said:
Guys...this is EXACTLY what we talk about when we say, "lower the signal to noise." You each view this differently. You each made your case. Now it's turning into a personal attack on each other BECAUSE you disagree? Can the hyperbole. Can the pointed one-line insults. There's NO place for it anymore.

Note: In the not-to-distant future, posts like this are very likely to be deleted in order to keep the threads clean of this personal back and forth. But for now, I'm going to keep this in here to illustrate the kinds of things we're cracking down on. Many of you have asked for examples of what kinds of things we're talking about reining in, and this is one of them.
Click to expand...
Sounds good to me. :shrug:
 
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Ghost Rider said:
twitch said:
That's the most boring, over-played twist of logic applied anywhere.
Click to expand...
No, it isn't. You are the one saying that Plummer's 7-4 record is all that matters, and the one who is dismissing Cutler's superior numbers (as well as the numbers of the overall offense being significantly better) as being merely good for padding his fantasy stats. Are you denying you said this, because it is in this thread for all to read (assuming you haven't edited your posts since).
Click to expand...
Im saying that when it comes to judging a QB's ability to lead a team to wins, not put up #s, lead a team to wins, alot of factors play in. Its not just about yardage and completions. Its about winning. Knowing how to win. Understanding how to lead. Its specifically what Mike Shanahan cited in his reasoning to go with Cutler: "He gives us a better chance of winning now". He didnt say, "he's gonna put up better #s". Or "he'll pass for more yardage and our O will function better". He said the rookie would lead the team to more wins. And Im not volunteering to compare that one isolated situation to every other QB scenario in the league because they are all different. Others were brought up in discussion here by other parties. Which is what was annoying about your broad brush generalization. Each case is its own. In that one, they had a veteran, yet relatively young QB in place who'd been with the team for 4 years, knew the O, had the trust of that team, that was consistently leading that team to wins. And Shanahan chose to go with the other guy. That is what Im saying. It is about winning. But Im not comparing Jake Plummer to Rivers or whoever else. But have at it if that's your mo.
 
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ConstruxBoy said:
Despyzer said:
I know I'm over-simplifying this, but I think the argument of "I'm so mad about being considered for a trade that I demand to be traded" is fantastically ironic.
Click to expand...
If you think he's mad about "being considered for a trade" as opposed to "coach lied to me about trying to trade me", then I don't think anyone here can help you.
Click to expand...
so, do you think cutler would've reacted much differently if the the broncos had told him upfront they were shopping him?i highly doubt the reaction would be much different.
 
I think the debate about 2006 is, in hindsight, a bit silly. I know that Gregg Easterbrook prominently brings this up every few weeks as an example of the "Mastermind" going off the deep end, but looking back, I can't think of too many Broncos fans who disagree with it. (At the time, sure, there was definitely some understandable skepticism.)

The switch was made because after the annual loss at Arrowhead, with Denver at 7-4, having blown a 17-point 2nd half lead against the division-leading Chargers at home just weeks after losing to the Colts at home (in the Broncos' arguably best offensive game of the season), the Broncos were flailing, couldn't make plays on offense, and it was clear that the defense was running out of gas after being the clear driving force behind the 5-1 start.

The loss to Seattle in Cutler's first start was really the killer loss -- it ultimately cost the Broncos a playoff berth as Cutler played generally poorly. But since then, I think most Broncos fans would agree that while 17-20 isn't the best on-paper record, considering the youth of the QB, the team in general, and the lack of talent on defense, that's a solid building block for future success.

:shrug:

 
Yep, the only thing to judge a QB by is W/L record.

Kerry Collins was better than Philip Rivers last season.

Kyle Orton was better than Drew Brees.

According to twitch logic, this would be correct, because wins are all that matter, and numbers only matter in fantasy football.

That's the most boring, over-played twist of logic applied anywhere. So, congratulations on your originality and genius.

Guys...this is EXACTLY what we talk about when we say, "lower the signal to noise." You each view this differently. You each made your case. Now it's turning into a personal attack on each other BECAUSE you disagree? Can the hyperbole. Can the pointed one-line insults. There's NO place for it anymore.

Note: In the not-to-distant future, posts like this are very likely to be deleted in order to keep the threads clean of this personal back and forth. But for now, I'm going to keep this in here to illustrate the kinds of things we're cracking down on. Many of you have asked for examples of what kinds of things we're talking about reigning in, and this is one of them.

My apologies. It has gotten over-heated, and I'll definitely dial it down. As soon as I have a Fresca.

 
Cutler signed a contract with Denver. And unless he included a "no trade" clause, he has nothing to be upset about. This is the way it goes.... If Cutler didn't want to ever be traded he should have thought about that at contract signing time. Now he just sounds like a whinny pre-madona.

McDaniels on the other hand, although was acting fully within his job description, and was fully within his rights, could have maybe handled it better and been more diplomatic.

In my opinion, this is Cutlers mess to clean up. Get on the same page with your organization, and fulfill your contractual obligations. Stop being a baby....

And maybe the underlying motivation here has more to do with money than anything else

- Cutler could certainly negotiate a better contract and salary. Maybe he's unhappy with the current $ and just using this as an excuse...

- The organization is holding a valuable player, multiplied by a VERY valuable existing contract. Maybe you'll never get as much for Cutler as you would right now. Seems his perceived value is a bit inflated, and he's tied into a very organization friendly contract. Cutler playing for your team in '09' for under 2 mill is probably the most valuable QB situation in the league.

Bottom line... Cutler is not the boss, the organization is acting within it's contractual rights, Cutlers ego needed to be knocked down a couple pegs. Can-it with all the BS and get back to work.

 
Carolina Hustler said:
Bottom line... Cutler is not the boss, the organization is acting within it's contractual rights, Cutlers ego needed to be knocked down a couple pegs. Can-it with all the BS and get back to work.
Click to expand...
I understand where you're coming from, but wouldn't you concede that if "it's just business", Cutler's well within his rights to do what he feels is best for his career?It's very possible that working for another team and getting a new contract is better for him than working with a coach that, for whatever reason, he doesn't feel he can trust.

"It's just business" cuts both ways. :goodposting:

 
thesurfshop19 said:
Carolina Hustler said:
Bottom line... Cutler is not the boss, the organization is acting within it's contractual rights, Cutlers ego needed to be knocked down a couple pegs. Can-it with all the BS and get back to work.
Click to expand...
I understand where you're coming from, but wouldn't you concede that if "it's just business", Cutler's well within his rights to do what he feels is best for his career?It's very possible that working for another team and getting a new contract is better for him than working with a coach that, for whatever reason, he doesn't feel he can trust.

"It's just business" cuts both ways. :hifive:
Click to expand...
:goodposting:
 
pollardsvision said:
ConstruxBoy said:
Despyzer said:
I know I'm over-simplifying this, but I think the argument of "I'm so mad about being considered for a trade that I demand to be traded" is fantastically ironic.
Click to expand...
If you think he's mad about "being considered for a trade" as opposed to "coach lied to me about trying to trade me", then I don't think anyone here can help you.
Click to expand...
so, do you think cutler would've reacted much differently if the the broncos had told him upfront they were shopping him?i highly doubt the reaction would be much different.
Click to expand...
Yes, I think his reaction would have been different. In fact, if you go back to when this first started there were several stories about it with him quoted as surprised and disappointed that they would look to move him. It's in one of the other threads on this. The heat wasn't raised until the first conference call with McDaniels/Xander where McDaniels denied he was trying to trade Cutler and told him everyone was expandable. That lie (the first one, not the second :stirspot: ) is what got this thing going so badly IMO.
 
ConstruxBoy said:
pollardsvision said:
ConstruxBoy said:
Despyzer said:
I know I'm over-simplifying this, but I think the argument of "I'm so mad about being considered for a trade that I demand to be traded" is fantastically ironic.
Click to expand...
If you think he's mad about "being considered for a trade" as opposed to "coach lied to me about trying to trade me", then I don't think anyone here can help you.
Click to expand...
so, do you think cutler would've reacted much differently if the the broncos had told him upfront they were shopping him?i highly doubt the reaction would be much different.
Click to expand...
Yes, I think his reaction would have been different. In fact, if you go back to when this first started there were several stories about it with him quoted as surprised and disappointed that they would look to move him. It's in one of the other threads on this. The heat wasn't raised until the first conference call with McDaniels/Xander where McDaniels denied he was trying to trade Cutler and told him everyone was expandable. That lie (the first one, not the second :goodposting: ) is what got this thing going so badly IMO.
Click to expand...
Can someone post a credible link to prove that McDaniels actually lied to Cutler please.
 
thesurfshop19 said:
Carolina Hustler said:
Bottom line... Cutler is not the boss, the organization is acting within it's contractual rights, Cutlers ego needed to be knocked down a couple pegs. Can-it with all the BS and get back to work.
Click to expand...
I understand where you're coming from, but wouldn't you concede that if "it's just business", Cutler's well within his rights to do what he feels is best for his career?It's very possible that working for another team and getting a new contract is better for him than working with a coach that, for whatever reason, he doesn't feel he can trust.

"It's just business" cuts both ways. :goodposting:
Click to expand...
"It's just Business", not what I said but I think it's actually a good way to sum it up... And yes, I think both sides are deserving to act in their best interest.Then I would say, why not just say that and stop whining about being traded. If it's about money, or working with people you better trust or like, then just say that and move on...

And that still in no way vilifies McDaniels...

 
Lets not forget that Cutler asked (some sources say) for a trade when they let go of Shanny and the QB coach that he wanted as the OC under McDaniels. Denver saw a chance to get Cassell who they feel would be on par with Cutler. McDaniels did mess up by not being honest with Cutler. But Cutler and his agent has done nothing but compond the issue. From what I read Bus is also using Scheffler as a pawn as he tries to get both players new contracts.

 
Carolina Hustler said:
ConstruxBoy said:
pollardsvision said:
ConstruxBoy said:
Despyzer said:
I know I'm over-simplifying this, but I think the argument of "I'm so mad about being considered for a trade that I demand to be traded" is fantastically ironic.
Click to expand...
If you think he's mad about "being considered for a trade" as opposed to "coach lied to me about trying to trade me", then I don't think anyone here can help you.
Click to expand...
so, do you think cutler would've reacted much differently if the the broncos had told him upfront they were shopping him?i highly doubt the reaction would be much different.
Click to expand...
Yes, I think his reaction would have been different. In fact, if you go back to when this first started there were several stories about it with him quoted as surprised and disappointed that they would look to move him. It's in one of the other threads on this. The heat wasn't raised until the first conference call with McDaniels/Xander where McDaniels denied he was trying to trade Cutler and told him everyone was expandable. That lie (the first one, not the second :thumbup: ) is what got this thing going so badly IMO.
Click to expand...
Can someone post a credible link to prove that McDaniels actually lied to Cutler please.
Click to expand...
LOL, I think you know that's impossible. Sometimes you have to read between the lines and when I do that, I get that he lied to Cutler. There was a link in which McDaniels refused to say whether or not he tried to trade Cutler, or some variation of that. I think refusals to clarify something like that mean that the person did it and doesn't want to admit it, but YMMV.
 
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