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World's Greatest Draft (2 Viewers)

timschochet said:
Flysack, you're both right and wrong here, IMO. Everything you write about genre fiction is true enough, and it basically corresponds with my criticism of these choices being selected. And I agree in general with you about complex fiction.

But you ignore the fact that what you call complex fiction can also be pretentious fiction, and that there's a thin line between the two, based upon the reader. Personally, I find Joseph Conrad, for instance, to be complex fiction: not easy to read, but worth it. I find Joyce and Proust (what I've read) to be pretentious fiction.

Now my jab at you and Krista being "literary snobs" is somewhat of a joke, of course, but there is in every joke a small element of truth, and there is here too. Yes, I do prefer accessibility, but not the watering down of the human soul (in itself a pretty pretentious statement, wouldn't you agree?) The best writers who ever existed, IMO, are able to be accessible AND complex. (Shakespeare and Dickens, for example.) That Joyce and Proust and a few others fail the accessibility test does not take them off the top 20 list, but it should place them below authors who have mastered both. I could offer you the ultimate example of this in a slim American novel of which you're well acquainted, but it's author has not been selected.
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PM this novel. I'm curious. I'll let you know my favorite author, also an American and unselected so far.
 
Doug B said:
Throwing out names that you don't think are Top-20 material is still spotlighting. If drafters are going to make mistakes, they should be allowed to make them. Now the drafters that had the spotlit guy on the radar (and there are some, I guarantee) will "know" not to draft him.

Otherwise, each judge could have just submitted Top-20 lists and everyone could have used them as cheatsheets :shrug:
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You're absolutely right. From here on out I will refrain from mentioning names like L. Ron Hubbard, Ed Wood, Nickelback, and the guy responsible for the Chicken Soup for the Soul series (whatever his name is).EDIT: I'm just joking around. I get your point.

 
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flysack said:
Doug B said:
Throwing out names that you don't think are Top-20 material is still spotlighting. If drafters are going to make mistakes, they should be allowed to make them. Now the drafters that had the spotlit guy on the radar (and there are some, I guarantee) will "know" not to draft him.

Otherwise, each judge could have just submitted Top-20 lists and everyone could have used them as cheatsheets :shrug:
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You're absolutely right. From here on out I will refrain from mentioning names like L. Ron Hubbard, Ed Wood, Nickelback, and the guy responsible for the Chicken Soup for the Soul series (whatever his name is).EDIT: I'm just joking around. I get your point.
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Don't mention Canfield and Hansen!Or at the very least, obfuscate by claiming they were a guitar duo.

 
I'm going Performer/Musician here to get that category out of the way. The Beatles are the clear #1 here and JML and I actually talked about that before the draft started and how they needed to be a top 10 pick given the categories.

After them, there are a ton of acts that have worldwide fame, so you can go in a bunch of directions. I'll take the highest grossing female performer in history. Yeah, I'll go with the nice sincere and quiet italian girl here.

I select, Madonna , an American recording artist, actress and entrepreneur. Born in Bay City, Michigan and raised in Rochester Hills, Michigan, Madonna moved to New York City in 1977, for a career in modern dance. After performing as member of the pop musical groups Breakfast Club and Emmy, she released her self-titled debut album in 1983, and then produced three consecutive number-one studio albums on the Billboard 200 in the 1980s and four more since year 2000.

Madonna is known for exploring religious symbolism and sexual themes in her work. This drew criticism from the Vatican in the late 1980s. In 1992, she founded an entertainment company, Maverick, which published a book of photographs (Sex). She also released a studio album (Erotica) and starred in a film (Body of Evidence) with erotic themes. These works generated negative publicity and coincided with a fall in commercial sales in the 1990s.

Madonna's career was revived in 1998, when the release of her album Ray of Light garnered critical acclaim. Madonna has acted in 22 films. Although most failed critically and commercially, she earned a Golden Globe Award for her role in the 1996 film Evita. In 1996 Madonna gave birth to a daughter, Lourdes Maria (also known as Lola) by personal trainer Carlos Leon before marrying film director Guy Ritchie in 2000. She and Ritchie have two sons, Rocco and David Banda, a Malawian boy they adopted in 2006, which caused media allegations they violated that country's adoption laws.

She has been regarded as "one of the greatest pop acts of all time" and dubbed the "Queen of Pop" by various sources. She is ranked by the Recording Industry Association of America as the best-selling female rock artist of the twentieth century and the second top-selling female artist in the United States with 63 million certified albums.

Guinness World Records list her as the world's most successful female recording artist of all time and the top-earning female singer in the world with an estimated net worth of US$490 million, having sold over 200 million records worldwide.

 
Tim, I did a little housekeeping and moved a few people:

World Greatest Draft

Leader ----------------------------- Charlemagne, The Father of Europe

Military ----------------------------- Saladin, The Greatest Muslim Hero

Scientist --------------------------- Hippocrates, The Father of Medicine

Inventor --------------------------- T'sai Lun, The Inventor of Paper

Discoverer/Explorer

Humanitarian/Saint/Martyr ------- Saint Augustine, The Patron Saint of Theologians (and beer).

Novelist/short story

Playwright/Poet

Villain ------------------------------ Adolf Hitler, The Great Evil in Human History

Athlete

Composer

Muscian/ Performer -------------- Madonna, The Top Selling Female in the World

Painter

Artist/ Non Painter

Philosopher

Religious Figure

Celebrity

Intellectual ------------------------ Adam Smith, The Father of Economics

Rebel ------------------------------ Maximilien Robespierre, The Architect of the French Reign of Terror

Wildcard -------------------------- Edmund Burke, the Father of Conservatiism

Wildcard

Wildcard

I keep wondering if I should swap Saladin and Charlemagne.

 
ianfitzy said:
AcerFC said:
I am out and on the phone so no big write upFranz Kafka- Novelist/short storyPlease PM Fubar for me. Thanks
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This is the guy I thought flysack was talking about as a top 5 writer who was German.
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Yankee23Fan said:
ianfitzy said:
AcerFC said:
I am out and on the phone so no big write upFranz Kafka- Novelist/short storyPlease PM Fubar for me. Thanks
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This is the guy I thought flysack was talking about as a top 5 writer who was German.
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Meh. Never liked him.
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Was he German? No.Did he speak German? Check.Was he Czech? Check.But there is a German that I would put in the top ten.
 
Through 10 rounds I like my team. There are so many great names in history that every team should have 10 truly remarkable and amazing people to talk about at this point. I'm thinking another 5 rounds of solid picks and then the game will be won or lost in those final rounds.

Leader ----------------------------- Charlemagne, The Father of Europe

Military ----------------------------- Saladin, The Greatest Muslim Hero

Scientist --------------------------- Hippocrates, The Father of Medicine

Inventor --------------------------- T'sai Lun, The Inventor of Paper

Humanitarian/Saint/Martyr ------- Saint Augustine, The Patron Saint of Theologians (and beer).

Villain ------------------------------ Adolf Hitler, The Great Evil in Human History

Muscian/ Performer -------------- Madonna, The Top Selling Female in the World

Intellectual ------------------------ Adam Smith, The Father of Economics

Rebel ------------------------------ Maximilien Robespierre, The Architect of the French Reign of Terror

Wildcard -------------------------- Edmund Burke, the Father of Conservatiism

Looking at my remaining list for the coming second half here and there are still quite a few people in the positions I haven't selected yet who can make a great argument for being top 10, or maybe even higher. It initially looked like my strategy, such as it was, to avoid certain positions won't hurt too much, but we'll see.

I am very very happy to get Smith and Burke to add to Hitler and Charlemagne, all of whom I consider upper tier top studs. And I was surprised to get Hippocrates whose name came forth to me when I looked to ancient Rome/Greece after Socrates, Plato and Aristotle and the top singular named greats. :shrug:

 
Yankee I like almost all your picks, except for one misplaced category, and one pick I think you overrate:

The misplaced category is St. Augustine. He is one of the most important religious figures in history, and I know he is a Saint as far as the Catholic Church is concerned, but he hardly defines what I meant by the category term "saint"; I was relating that to humanitarian. I think Augustine is far more suited to the religious figure category.

The overrated pick is Madonna. I really like Madonna, always have, but one of the top 20 musician/performers in history? By record sales, sure. By merit, I just can't go there.

 
timschochet said:
Yankee I like almost all your picks, except for one misplaced category, and one pick I think you overrate:The misplaced category is St. Augustine. He is one of the most important religious figures in history, and I know he is a Saint as far as the Catholic Church is concerned, but he hardly defines what I meant by the category term "saint"; I was relating that to humanitarian. I think Augustine is far more suited to the religious figure category.The overrated pick is Madonna. I really like Madonna, always have, but one of the top 20 musician/performers in history? By record sales, sure. By merit, I just can't go there.
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if you didn't mean saint as in "saint", why'd you say it?I guess when I hear the word "saint" in terms of historical people, I think of Catholic Saints... most of my list in that category are saints... :blackdot:
 
Gustave Eiffel Artist / Non Painter

Buildings and structures

* Eiffel Tower

* Estación Central (main train station), Santiago, Chile

* Konak Pier

* Mercado Adolpho Lisboa or Eiffel Market

* Nice Observatory

* Palacio de Hierro, Orizaba Veracruz, Mexico

* Paradis Latin, Paris

* San Sebastian Church, Manila, Philippines

* Statue of Liberty

* The General Post Office, Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam

* The Market, Dijon, France

Bridges

* Birsbrücke, Münchenstein, Switzerland which collapsed on the 14th of June in 1891 killing over 70 people. See Munchenstein rail disaster.

* Bridge over the Schelde in Temse, in Belgium

* Garabit Viaduct

* Garonne River Bridge near Bordeaux was Eiffel's first project at age 25.

* Long Bien bridge, Hanoi, Vietnam

* Maria Pia Bridge (Porto Viaduct)

* Railway Bridge near Constitución, Chile

* Souleuvre Viaduct

* The Eiffel Bridge in Viana do Castelo's Marina was a Gustav Eiffel's project from 1878.

* The Railway Bridge over the Coura river in Caminha, Portugal.

* The road (D50) bridge over the River Lay at Lavaud in the Vendee, France

* Truong Tien Bridge is reflected in the Huong river, Hue, Viet Nam.

* Quezon Bridge in Quiapo District, Manila, Philippines

Other works

* Combier Distillery, Saumur (Loire Valley), France

* Viaduct over the Sioule river (1867)

* Viaduct at Neuvial (1867)

* Notre Dame des Champs, Paris (1868)

* Swing bridge at Dieppe (1870)

* Gasworks of La Paz, Bolivia

* La Paz Train Station, La Paz, Bolivia (now Bus Station of La Paz)

* Church at Tacna, Peru (1875)

* Church in Arica, Chile

* Ruhnu Lighthouse at Ruhnu island, Estonia (1877)

* Hotel Traian, at Iaşi, Romania (1884)

* Bolivar Bridge, at Arequipa, Peru

* Fenix Theatre, at Arequipa, Peru

* San Camilo Market, at Arequipa, Peru

* Church at Santa Rosalía, Baja California Sur

* Bridge over the Tisza near Szeged, Hungary

* Farol de São Thomé in Campos, Brazil

* The framework of the Western Train station in Budapest, Hungary

* Great bridge over the Begej in Zrenjanin, Serbia, built in 1904, disassembled and replaced by concrete bridge in 1969

* Mona Island Lighthouse at Mona Island, Puerto Rico

* Plaza del Mercado (local produce market) at Mayagüez, Puerto Rico

* Bridge in Trujillo Alto (still there but not used anymore), Puerto Rico

* Puente Quezon (Quezon Bridge) over Pasig River, Manila, Philippines

* House of Steel in Maputo, Mozambique

* Ajfel Bridge On Skenderija Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina

* Dome (Salon Royale) of Hotel Negresco, Nice, France

* Pabellon de la Rosa Piriapolis, Uruguay

Not Proved

* (Bridge over the Cuyuni River, southern Venezuela)

* Santa Efigênia Viaduct, São Paulo, Brazil (1913)

* Santa Justa Lift (Carmo Lift), in Lisbon, Portugal (1901)

* Dam on Great Bačka Canal, Bečej, Vojvodina, Serbia (1900)

* Malleco Viaduct, Chile (1890)

* Palácio de Ferro, Angola (1890)

 
larry_boy_44 said:
timschochet said:
Yankee I like almost all your picks, except for one misplaced category, and one pick I think you overrate:The misplaced category is St. Augustine. He is one of the most important religious figures in history, and I know he is a Saint as far as the Catholic Church is concerned, but he hardly defines what I meant by the category term "saint"; I was relating that to humanitarian. I think Augustine is far more suited to the religious figure category.The overrated pick is Madonna. I really like Madonna, always have, but one of the top 20 musician/performers in history? By record sales, sure. By merit, I just can't go there.
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if you didn't mean saint as in "saint", why'd you say it?I guess when I hear the word "saint" in terms of historical people, I think of Catholic Saints... most of my list in that category are saints... :lmao:
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And some of them certainly would be good choices, though not all of them. You know what I mean when someone says, "that person was a saint"; I meant in connection with humanitarians and martyrs, people who have bravely tried to do good things.
 
timschochet said:
Yankee I like almost all your picks, except for one misplaced category, and one pick I think you overrate:The misplaced category is St. Augustine. He is one of the most important religious figures in history, and I know he is a Saint as far as the Catholic Church is concerned, but he hardly defines what I meant by the category term "saint"; I was relating that to humanitarian. I think Augustine is far more suited to the religious figure category.The overrated pick is Madonna. I really like Madonna, always have, but one of the top 20 musician/performers in history? By record sales, sure. By merit, I just can't go there.
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First, the Saint thing - are you serious? Why put saint in that category then? And not for nothing, but by definition a saint is someone that belongs in the discussion of people that have done good for the world at some personal sacrifice. But, if that is where this is going then move him to religious figure. I suggest you make this a little clear to everyone as we move forward.Now, to Madonna - if we don't go by record sales, what do we go by? And before you say influence in the medium, be careful because you are going to eliminate from contention a ton of people that can go there. She is the most successful woman in music worldwide according to the Guiness Book of Records. I'm not sure what you want in that category if it isn't that.
 
I was following from work Wed and Thu so I don't know if it seemed draggy those days but yesterday and today surely do. If I'd known it was going this slow I would've taken more time with my last pick as I got caught a little unprepared.

I think it has to do with the MK/LarryBoy elbow always stirring up such debate that the back half seems boring by comparason. Here's to hoping they have some solid debate inspiring picks coming up. Don't let us down guys!

 
Yankee23Fan said:
Now, to Madonna - if we don't go by record sales, what do we go by? And before you say influence in the medium, be careful because you are going to eliminate from contention a ton of people that can go there. She is the most successful woman in music worldwide according to the Guiness Book of Records. I'm not sure what you want in that category if it isn't that.
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:thumbup: What's wrong with going by influence in the medium?
 
Arsenal of Doom said:
I'm on my phone so I can't do a write up, not much introduction should be needed though.

The Rolling Stones- Musical Performers
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I thought I'd add a little perspective and scope on Stones career. Here's a list of their tours since 1962, and the venues they played on their most recent tour in 2006-2007. The last tour became the highest grossing tour of any performer or group, nearly a half century after they started.Tours:

September-November 1963 - British Tour 1963

January 1964 - 1st British Tour 1964

February-March 1964 - 2nd British Tour 1964

June 1964 - 1st American Tour 1964

August 1964 - 3rd British Tour 1964

September-October 1964 - 4th British Tour 1964

October-November 1964 - 2nd American Tour 1964

February 1965 - Far East Tour 1965

March 1965 - 1st British Tour 1965

March-April 1965 - 1st European Tour 1965

April 1965 - 2nd European Tour 1965

April-May 1965 - 1st American Tour 1965

June 1965 - 3rd European Tour 1965

September 1965 - 4th European Tour 1965

September-October 1965 - 2nd British Tour 1965

October-December 1965 - 2nd American Tour 1965

February-March 1966 - Australasian Tour 1966

March-April 1966 - European Tour 1966

June-July 1966 - American Tour 1966

September-October 1966 - British Tour 1966

March-April 1967- European Tour 1967

November-December 1969 - American Tour 1969

August-October 1970 - European Tour 1970

March 1971 - UK Tour 1971

June-July 1972 - American Tour 1972

January-Februrary 1973 - Pacific Tour 1973

September-October 1973 - European Tour 1973

June-August 1975 - Tour of the Americas '75

April-June 1976 - Tour of Europe '76

June-July 1978 - US Tour 1978

September-December 1981 - American Tour 1981

May-July 1982 - European Tour 1982

August 1989-August 1990 - Steel Wheels/Urban Jungle Tour

August 1994-August 1995 - Voodoo Lounge Tour

September 1997-September 1998 - Bridges to Babylon Tour

January-April 1999 - No Security Tour

September 2002-November 2003 - Licks Tour

August 2005-August 2007 - A Bigger Bang Tour

A Bigger Bang Tour:

The outstanding scale of the tour was realised on February 18, 2006 when the Stones played a one-night concert on Copacabana Beach in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. The free concert was broadcast on television and broke several records as the largest rock concert of all time. There were a reported 2 million people present on the beach and crowding subsequent streets. A special bridge was constructed for the band to cross from the stage to the hotel safely.

10/08/2005 Phoenix Concert Theatre - Toronto, ON

21/08/2005 Fenway Park - Boston, MA

23/08/2005 Fenway Park - Boston, MA

26/08/2005 Rentschler Field - Hartford, CT

28/08/2005 Frank Clair Stadium at Lansdowne Park - Ottawa, ON

31/08/2005 Comerica Park - Detroit, MI

03/09/2005 Magnetic Hill Concert Site - Moncton, NB

06/09/2005 Xcel Energy Center - St. Paul, MN

08/09/2005 Bradley Center - Milwaukee, WI

10/09/2005 Soldier Field - Chicago, IL

13/09/2005 Madison Square Garden - New York, NY

15/09/2005 Giants Stadium - East Rutherford, NJ

17/09/2005 Pepsi Arena - Albany, NY

24/09/2005 Nationwide Arena - Columbus, OH

26/09/2005 Rogers Centre - Toronto, ON

28/09/2005 PNC Park - Pittsburgh, PA

01/10/2005 Hersheypark Stadium - Hershey, PA

03/10/2005 MCI Center - Washington, DC

06/10/2005 Scott Stadium - Charlottesville, VA

08/10/2005 Wallace Wade Stadium - Durham, NC

10/10/2005 Wachovia Center - Philadelphia, PA

12/10/2005 Wachovia Center - Philadelphia, PA

15/10/2005 Philips Arena - Atlanta, GA

17/10/2005 AmericanAirlines Arena - Miami, FL

19/10/2005 St. Pete Times Forum - Tampa, FL

21/10/2005 Charlotte Bobcats Arena - Charlotte, North Carolina

28/10/2005 Pengrowth Saddledome - Calgary, AB

30/10/2005 KeyArena - Seattle, WA

01/11/2005 Rose Garden - Portland, OR

04/11/2005 Angel Stadium of Anaheim - Anaheim, CA

06/11/2005 Hollywood Bowl - Hollywood, CA

08/11/2005 Hollywood Bowl - Hollywood, CA

11/11/2005 PETCO Park - San Diego, CA

13/11/2005 SBC Park - San Francisco, CA

15/11/2005 SBC Park - San Francisco, CA

18/11/2005 MGM Grand Garden Arena - Las Vegas, NV

20/11/2005 Save Mart Center - Fresno, CA

22/11/2005 Delta Center - Salt Lake City, UT

24/11/2005 Pepsi Center - Denver, CO

27/11/2005 Glendale Arena - Glendale, AZ

29/11/2005 American Airlines Center - Dallas, TX

01/12/2005 Toyota Center - Houston, TX

03/12/2005 FedExForum - Memphis, TN

10/01/2006 Centre Bell - Montreal, QB

13/01/2006 TD Banknorth Garden - Boston, MA

15/01/2006 TD Banknorth Garden - Boston, MA

18/01/2006 Madison Square Garden - New York, NY

20/01/2006 Madison Square Garden - New York, NY

23/01/2006 United Center - Chicago, IL

25/01/2006 United Center - Chicago, IL

27/01/2006 Savvis Center - St. Louis, MO

29/01/2006 Qwest Center - Omaha, NE

01/02/2006 1st Mariner Arena - Baltimore, MD

05/02/2006 Ford Field (Super Bowl XL) - Detroit, MI

08/02/2006 Philips Arena - Atlanta, GA

Latin America

11/02/2006 Coliseo de Puerto Rico - San Juan, Puerto Rico

18/02/2006 Copacabana Beach - Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

21/02/2006 Estadio Monumental - Buenos Aires, Argentina

23/02/2006 Estadio Monumental - Buenos Aires, Argentina

26/02/2006 Foro Sol - Mexico City, Mexico

01/03/2006 Estadio Universitario - Monterrey, Mexico

North America

04/03/2006 MGM Grand Garden Arena - Las Vegas, NV

06/03/2006 The Forum - Inglewood, CA

09/03/2006 ALLTEL Arena - North Little Rock, AR

12/03/2006 BankAtlantic Center - Sunrise, FL

14/03/2006 Radio City Music Hall - New York, NY

Japan

22/03/2006 Tokyo Dome - Tokyo, Japan

24/03/2006 Tokyo Dome - Tokyo, Japan

29/03/2006 Sapporo Dome - Sapporo, Japan

02/04/2006 Saitama Super Arena - Saitama, Japan

05/04/2006 Nagoya Dome - Nagoya, Japan

China

08/04/2006 Shanghai Grand Stage - Shanghai, China

Australia

11/04/2006 Telstra Stadium - Sydney, Australia

13/04/2006 Rod Laver Arena - Melbourne, Australia

New Zealand

16/04/2006 Western Springs Stadium - Auckland, New Zealand

18/04/2006 Westpac Stadium - Wellington, New Zealand

Europe

11/07/2006 Stadio Giuseppe Meazza - Milan, Italy

14/07/2006 Ernst Happel Stadion - Vienna, Austria

16/07/2006 Olympiastadion - Munich, Germany

19/07/2006 AWD Arena - Hanover, Germany

21/07/2006 Olympiastadion - Berlin, Germany

23/07/2006 Rhein Energie Stadion - Cologne, Germany

28/07/2006 Stade de France - Paris, France

31/07/2006 Amsterdam ArenA - Amsterdam, Netherlands

03/08/2006 Gottlieb-Daimler-Stadion - Stuttgart, Germany

05/08/2006 Dübendorf Airfield - Zurich, Switzerland

08/08/2006 Palais Nikaia - Nice, France

12/08/2006 Estádio do Dragão - Porto, Portugal

14/08/2006 (Cancelled) Estadio José Zorrilla - Valladolid, Spain

16/08/2006 (Cancelled) Estadio Municipal Santo Domingo - El Ejido, Spain

20/08/2006 Twickenham Stadium - London, England

25/08/2006 Hampden Park - Glasgow, Scotland

27/08/2006 Don Valley Stadium - Sheffield, England

29/08/2006 Millennium Stadium - Cardiff, Wales

01/09/2006 Koengen - Bergen, Norway

03/09/2006 Forum Horsens Stadion - Horsens, Denmark

North America

20/09/2006 Gillette Stadium - Foxborough, MA

23/09/2006 Halifax Common - Halifax, NS

27/09/2006 Giants Stadium - East Rutherford, NJ

29/09/2006 Churchill Downs - Louisville, KY

01/10/2006 Cessna Stadium - Wichita, KS

04/10/2006 Grizzly Stadium - Missoula, MT

06/10/2006 Mosaic Stadium at Taylor Field - Regina, SK

08/10/2006 Mosaic Stadium at Taylor Field - Regina, SK

11/10/2006 Soldier Field - Chicago, IL

17/10/2006 Qwest Field - Seattle, WA

20/10/2006 Sun Bowl Stadium - El Paso, TX

22/10/2006 Zilker Park - Austin, TX

29/10/2006 Beacon Theatre, New York, NY (recorded for Shine A Light)

01/11/2006 Beacon Theatre, New York, NY (recorded for Shine A Light)

06/11/2006 Oakland Coliseum - Oakland, CA

08/11/2006 Cardinals Stadium - Glendale, AZ

11/11/2006 MGM Grand Garden Arena - Las Vegas, NV

14/11/2006 Idaho Center - Boise, ID

17/11/2006 Boardwalk Hall - Atlantic City, NJ

22/11/2006 Dodger Stadium - Los Angeles, CA

25/11/2006 BC Place Stadium - Vancouver, BC

Europe

05/06/2007 Werchter Park (festival site) - Werchter, Belgium

08/06/2007 Goffert Park (festival site) - Nijmegen, Netherlands

10/06/2007 Isle of Wight Festival - Newport, Isle of Wight, England

13/06/2007 Commerzbank-Arena - Frankfurt, Germany

16/06/2007 Stade de France - Paris, France

18/06/2007 Stade Gerland - Lyon, France

21/06/2007 Estadio Olimpico de Montjuic - Barcelona, Spain

23/06/2007 Anoeta Stadium - San Sebastián, Spain

25/06/2007 Estadio Jose Alvalade XXI - Lisbon, Portugal

28/06/2007 Estadio Vicente Calderón - Madrid, Spain

30/06/2007 Estadio Municipal Santo Domingo - Almeria, Spain

06/07/2007 Stadio Olimpico - Rome, Italy

09/07/2007 Jaz Beach - Budva, Montenegro

14/07/2007 Ušće Park - Belgrade, Serbia (biggest concert in Europe during 2007)

17/07/2007 Lia Manoliu Stadium - Bucharest, Romania

20/07/2007 The Puskás Ferenc Stadium - Budapest, Hungary

22/07/2007 Outdoor Exhibition Centre - Brno, Czech Republic

25/07/2007 Służewiec Race Horse Track - Warsaw, Poland

28/07/2007 Palace Square, by The Winter Palace - Saint Petersburg, Russia

01/08/2007 Olympiastadion - Helsinki, Finland

03/08/2007 Ullevi Stadium- Gothenburg, Sweden

05/08/2007 Idraetsparken - Copenhagen, Denmark

08/08/2007 Valle Hovin - Oslo, Norway

11/08/2007 Stade Olympique de la Pontaise - Lausanne, Switzerland

13/08/2007 LTU Arena - Düsseldorf, Germany

15/08/2007 HSH Nordbank Arena - Hamburg, Germany

18/08/2007 Slane Castle - County Meath, Ireland

21/08/2007 The O2 - London, England

23/08/2007 The O2 - London, England

26/08/2007 The O2 - London, England

 
mad sweeney said:
I think it has to do with the MK/LarryBoy elbow always stirring up such debate that the back half seems boring by comparason. Here's to hoping they have some solid debate inspiring picks coming up. Don't let us down guys!
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Why are you lumping me into the "start a debate crowd?" What debates have I started in this thread? Link?This kind of sucks. Larry was here and he left right after Arsenal picked. I have to be somewhere like 30 minutes ago and was hoping to pick. C'mon larry... where did you go?
 
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Arsenal of Doom said:
The outstanding scale of the tour was realised on February 18, 2006 when the Stones played a one-night concert on Copacabana Beach in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. The free concert was broadcast on television and broke several records as the largest rock concert of all time. There were a reported 2 million people present on the beach and crowding subsequent streets. A special bridge was constructed for the band to cross from the stage to the hotel safely.
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Word. Free concerts in Copacabana Beach are the surest thing in the world. Always a recipe for massive success.
 
Yankee23Fan said:
timschochet said:
Yankee I like almost all your picks, except for one misplaced category, and one pick I think you overrate:The misplaced category is St. Augustine. He is one of the most important religious figures in history, and I know he is a Saint as far as the Catholic Church is concerned, but he hardly defines what I meant by the category term "saint"; I was relating that to humanitarian. I think Augustine is far more suited to the religious figure category.The overrated pick is Madonna. I really like Madonna, always have, but one of the top 20 musician/performers in history? By record sales, sure. By merit, I just can't go there.
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First, the Saint thing - are you serious? Why put saint in that category then? And not for nothing, but by definition a saint is someone that belongs in the discussion of people that have done good for the world at some personal sacrifice. But, if that is where this is going then move him to religious figure. I suggest you make this a little clear to everyone as we move forward.Now, to Madonna - if we don't go by record sales, what do we go by? And before you say influence in the medium, be careful because you are going to eliminate from contention a ton of people that can go there. She is the most successful woman in music worldwide according to the Guiness Book of Records. I'm not sure what you want in that category if it isn't that.
Click to expand...
Your definition of saint is exactly what I meant. But Augustine, from what I've read of his life, was not made a Saint because of his good doings, but because of his contributions to the role of the church and Christianity. This is an important distinction. However, I am not the judge of either category, nor will I instruct the judges. If you want to keep him in the category he's in, fine. I don't know how to answer your second question. Certainly popularity is a factor, so is influence, so is talent. Madonna has some of each, though the most she offers by far is popularity. I have no idea how to weigh each factor; perhaps Uncle Humuna does. All I know is, without making a list, I can intuitively say she doesn't make MY top 20. Neither does Miles Davis, though he's closer. The Beatles, Louis Armstrong, and the Rolling Stones all do make my top 20, though I don't know where I place the Stones. The other two are easily top 5.
 
I am heading out so if larry shows up there may be a delay. I see Tim is around, so whether you like it or not, you are getting a PM. If Tim is not around by the time larry picks, than the draft is going on stall for the rest of the evening.

 
timschochet said:
Yankee23Fan said:
timschochet said:
Yankee I like almost all your picks, except for one misplaced category, and one pick I think you overrate:The misplaced category is St. Augustine. He is one of the most important religious figures in history, and I know he is a Saint as far as the Catholic Church is concerned, but he hardly defines what I meant by the category term "saint"; I was relating that to humanitarian. I think Augustine is far more suited to the religious figure category.The overrated pick is Madonna. I really like Madonna, always have, but one of the top 20 musician/performers in history? By record sales, sure. By merit, I just can't go there.
Click to expand...
First, the Saint thing - are you serious? Why put saint in that category then? And not for nothing, but by definition a saint is someone that belongs in the discussion of people that have done good for the world at some personal sacrifice. But, if that is where this is going then move him to religious figure. I suggest you make this a little clear to everyone as we move forward.Now, to Madonna - if we don't go by record sales, what do we go by? And before you say influence in the medium, be careful because you are going to eliminate from contention a ton of people that can go there. She is the most successful woman in music worldwide according to the Guiness Book of Records. I'm not sure what you want in that category if it isn't that.
Click to expand...
Your definition of saint is exactly what I meant. But Augustine, from what I've read of his life, was not made a Saint because of his good doings, but because of his contributions to the role of the church and Christianity. This is an important distinction. However, I am not the judge of either category, nor will I instruct the judges. If you want to keep him in the category he's in, fine. I don't know how to answer your second question. Certainly popularity is a factor, so is influence, so is talent. Madonna has some of each, though the most she offers by far is popularity. I have no idea how to weigh each factor; perhaps Uncle Humuna does. All I know is, without making a list, I can intuitively say she doesn't make MY top 20. Neither does Miles Davis, though he's closer. The Beatles, Louis Armstrong, and the Rolling Stones all do make my top 20, though I don't know where I place the Stones. The other two are easily top 5.
Click to expand...
I'd probably put Stones in the top 5 groups, almost certainly top 10. How they compare to some individuals, I'm not sure.The question for me is influence, and while the list isn't well renowned, Madonna definitely has influenced a few performers who are playing today. I'll avoid mentioning their names on that .0001% chance anyone thinks they'd be worth taking.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
10.19 The Virgin Mary, Celebrity

Jesus has been bugging me to get His mom on the team for a while now, and I just couldn't take it anymore...

Now, I know this is a strange pick, especially since I'm pretty sure Mary wasn't venerated as much as she is now when she was alive, but seriously now people, what says "celebrity" more than heated debates about a person's sexual history?

In all seriousness, though, Mary's face (or what we think of as her face) is seen everywhere and its always a big deal...

Plus who wouldn't want Holy Toast? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4019295.stm

 
timschochet said:
Yankee I like almost all your picks, except for one misplaced category, and one pick I think you overrate:The misplaced category is St. Augustine. He is one of the most important religious figures in history, and I know he is a Saint as far as the Catholic Church is concerned, but he hardly defines what I meant by the category term "saint"; I was relating that to humanitarian. I think Augustine is far more suited to the religious figure category.The overrated pick is Madonna. I really like Madonna, always have, but one of the top 20 musician/performers in history? By record sales, sure. By merit, I just can't go there.
Click to expand...
Just my two cents, but I think Augustine would make a fine Philosophy pick too. He certainly qualifies.
 
larry_boy_44 said:
10.19 The Virgin Mary, Celebrity

Jesus has been bugging me to get His mom on the team for a while now, and I just couldn't take it anymore...

Now, I know this is a strange pick, especially since I'm pretty sure Mary wasn't venerated as much as she is now when she was alive, but seriously now people, what says "celebrity" more than heated debates about a person's sexual history?

In all seriousness, though, Mary's face (or what we think of as her face) is seen everywhere and its always a big deal...

Plus who wouldn't want Holy Toast? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4019295.stm
Click to expand...
:lmao: First pick to make me openly laugh out loud.

Larry. I knew it was Larry before I even looked at the avatar.

 
flysack said:
larry_boy_44 said:
10.19 The Virgin Mary, Celebrity

Jesus has been bugging me to get His mom on the team for a while now, and I just couldn't take it anymore...

Now, I know this is a strange pick, especially since I'm pretty sure Mary wasn't venerated as much as she is now when she was alive, but seriously now people, what says "celebrity" more than heated debates about a person's sexual history?

In all seriousness, though, Mary's face (or what we think of as her face) is seen everywhere and its always a big deal...

Plus who wouldn't want Holy Toast? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4019295.stm
Click to expand...
:lmao: First pick to make me openly laugh out loud.

Larry. I knew it was Larry before I even looked at the avatar.
Click to expand...
Larry's consultant must have been unavailable.
 
larry_boy_44 said:
10.19 The Virgin Mary, Celebrity

Jesus has been bugging me to get His mom on the team for a while now, and I just couldn't take it anymore...

Now, I know this is a strange pick, especially since I'm pretty sure Mary wasn't venerated as much as she is now when she was alive, but seriously now people, what says "celebrity" more than heated debates about a person's sexual history?

In all seriousness, though, Mary's face (or what we think of as her face) is seen everywhere and its always a big deal...

Plus who wouldn't want Holy Toast? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4019295.stm
Click to expand...
... and there is the other shoe dropping. It was a good run.
 
Mario Kart's picks:

It is about time I pick my leader... for now. There have been many people to lead people to victory for their freedom. While the methods may be unconventional and while the enemies appear allied, one thing is for certain in the lifetime of humanity and that is: if you invade a country or attack on their home turf, people will defend what they have. There have been many leaders who have overcome a stronger opponent. There are many leaders who have countered an invaders ploy. There have not been many invaders who have overcome the known Super Power of the world than this most recent one. Who is he? Mario Kart selects:10.20 - Ho Chi Minh - Leader

Hồ Chí Minh listen (help·info) (name pronounced [hò̤ tɕǐmɪ̄ɲ]) (May 19, 1890 – September 2, 1969) was a Vietnamese Communist revolutionary and statesman who was Prime Minister (1946–1955) and President (1946–1969) of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam (North Vietnam).

Ho led the Viet Minh independence movement from 1941 onward, establishing the communist-governed Democratic Republic of Vietnam in 1945 and defeating the French Union in 1954 at Dien Bien Phu. He lost political power inside North Vietnam in the late 1950s, but remained as the highly visible figurehead president until his death. He was named by Time Magazine as one of the 100 most influential people of the 20th century,[1] while the former capital of South Vietnam, Saigon, was renamed Ho Chi Minh City in his honor.

-----------------------------------------------------

I have read the debates in this thread about villains and while I do not totally agree with the "body count" makes the villain the worst argument, it does hold some sway. If Hitler is going to be charged with ~30 million lives or whatever number it is... how many did he kill directly? Probably not many but that number was "in his name" which makes him bad. On the flip side, Jesus was not about killing people nor did he probably take another life but people after him have killed "in his name" and therefore he would be considered bad if put into the Villain category. At least he should be because more people have died "in his name" than any other person in history. So, if those people could be considered bad or villains because people have died "in their name" how would the catalyst to those events stack up? People will not have died in this person's name but it was because of him that many millions of people died. People do not worship this man but millions perished because of what he did. Is he the worst of the worst? Depends who you ask. But, the worst of the worst happened because of this man. People have asked if Hitler never was in power what would have happened? What if Hitler was never given the chance to get into power to begin with? This man, allowed Hitler to rise up into power and cause the damage he did. He also helped Stalin become the evil he did. Sure, Europe was not the most steady of places in the 1910's but a spark is needed before the fire starts. With that said, Mario Kart selects:

11.01 - Gavrilo Princip - Villain

Gavrilo Princip (Cyrillic: Гаврило Принцип, IPA: [gaʋ'ri:lɔ 'prinʦip]) (July 25, 1894 – April 28, 1918) was a Yugoslav nationalist associated with the freedom movement Mlada Bosna.[1] Princip assassinated Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria and his wife in Sarajevo on June 28, 1914.[2] Princip and his accomplices were arrested and implicated a number of members of the Serbian Military, leading Austria-Hungary to issue a démarche to Serbia known as the July Ultimatum.[3] This set off a chain of events that led to World War I.[4]

Princip attempted suicide first by ingesting cyanide, and then with the use of his pistol. But he vomited the past-date poison (as did Čabrinović, leading the police to believe the group had been deceived and bought a much weaker poison). The pistol was wrestled from his hand before he had a chance to fire another shot.

Princip was too young to receive the death penalty, being twenty-seven days short of his twentieth birthday at the time of the assassination. Instead, he received the maximum sentence of twenty years in prison. He was held in harsh conditions which were worsened by the war. He died of tuberculosis[2] on April 28, 1918 at Theresienstadt (a place which later became infamous as a Nazi concentration camp). At the time of his death, Princip weighed around 40 kilograms (88 lb. or 6.5 stones), weakened by malnutrition, blood loss, and disease.

The house where Gavrilo Princip lived in Sarajevo was destroyed during the First World War. After the war, it became a museum in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia was conquered by Germany in 1941 and Sarajevo became part of fascist Croatia. The Croatian fascists destroyed the house again. The Yugoslav communists under Tito established a communist Yugoslavia in 1944. The house of Gavrilo Princip became a museum again and there was another museum dedicated to him within the city of Sarajevo. During the Yugoslav Wars of the 1990s, the house of Gavrilo Princip was destroyed a third time by the government; no attempts to rebuild it have yet been announced. The Gavrilo Princip museum has been turned into a museum dedicated to Archduke Ferdinand and the Habsburg monarchy. Prior to the 1990s the site on the pavement on which Princip stood to fire the fatal shots was marked by embossed footprints. These were removed as a consequence of the 1992-5 war in Bosnia and the perception of Princip as having been a Serb nationalist. Later, a simple wooden memorial was placed near the site of the assassination with the words "May Peace Prevail on Earth" in Bosnian, Serbian and English.

Unwittingly, he is one of the most influential people in 20th century history, being indirectly responsible for sparking the chain of events that led to both World Wars.[6] [7]
Click to expand...
 
Mario Kart said:
mad sweeney said:
I think it has to do with the MK/LarryBoy elbow always stirring up such debate that the back half seems boring by comparason. Here's to hoping they have some solid debate inspiring picks coming up. Don't let us down guys!
Click to expand...
Why are you lumping me into the "start a debate crowd?" What debates have I started in this thread? Link?This kind of sucks. Larry was here and he left right after Arsenal picked. I have to be somewhere like 30 minutes ago and was hoping to pick. C'mon larry... where did you go?
Click to expand...
It's nothing perjorative. Yours and Larry's picks seem to engender the liveliest debates. Starting off with your first pick, post #45 I believe.One of the best parts of this draft is the debates, there's nothing negative about it. It just seems to me that this end of the draft with you and LB making 4 picks in a row is a lot more exciting than the other half of the draft.
 
Question for you, Larry: if I were drafting, and I selected Jesus, and immediately put him in celebrity, would it bother you? Would you be offended in any way?

 
timschochet said:
Question for you, Larry: if I were drafting, and I selected Jesus, and immediately put him in celebrity, would it bother you? Would you be offended in any way?
Click to expand...
Being Catholicish I know that Jesus would roll with the punches and if people wanted him to be a celebrity then he'd be good with that. Him and his Peeps only care about the message and if more people get the message through his celebrity then so be it.
 
FUBAR said:
timschochet said:
Yankee23Fan said:
timschochet said:
Yankee I like almost all your picks, except for one misplaced category, and one pick I think you overrate:

The misplaced category is St. Augustine. He is one of the most important religious figures in history, and I know he is a Saint as far as the Catholic Church is concerned, but he hardly defines what I meant by the category term "saint"; I was relating that to humanitarian. I think Augustine is far more suited to the religious figure category.

The overrated pick is Madonna. I really like Madonna, always have, but one of the top 20 musician/performers in history? By record sales, sure. By merit, I just can't go there.
Click to expand...
First, the Saint thing - are you serious? Why put saint in that category then? And not for nothing, but by definition a saint is someone that belongs in the discussion of people that have done good for the world at some personal sacrifice. But, if that is where this is going then move him to religious figure. I suggest you make this a little clear to everyone as we move forward.

Now, to Madonna - if we don't go by record sales, what do we go by? And before you say influence in the medium, be careful because you are going to eliminate from contention a ton of people that can go there. She is the most successful woman in music worldwide according to the Guiness Book of Records. I'm not sure what you want in that category if it isn't that.
Click to expand...
Your definition of saint is exactly what I meant. But Augustine, from what I've read of his life, was not made a Saint because of his good doings, but because of his contributions to the role of the church and Christianity. This is an important distinction. However, I am not the judge of either category, nor will I instruct the judges. If you want to keep him in the category he's in, fine. I don't know how to answer your second question. Certainly popularity is a factor, so is influence, so is talent. Madonna has some of each, though the most she offers by far is popularity. I have no idea how to weigh each factor; perhaps Uncle Humuna does. All I know is, without making a list, I can intuitively say she doesn't make MY top 20. Neither does Miles Davis, though he's closer. The Beatles, Louis Armstrong, and the Rolling Stones all do make my top 20, though I don't know where I place the Stones. The other two are easily top 5.
Click to expand...
I'd probably put Stones in the top 5 groups, almost certainly top 10. How they compare to some individuals, I'm not sure.The question for me is influence, and while the list isn't well renowned, Madonna definitely has influenced a few performers who are playing today. I'll avoid mentioning their names on that .0001% chance anyone thinks they'd be worth taking.
Click to expand...
I would have to say that the Stones have influenced more people (probably to an order of magnitude) than Madonna whose names are very, very renown.
 
larry_boy_44 said:
10.19 The Virgin Mary, Celebrity

Jesus has been bugging me to get His mom on the team for a while now, and I just couldn't take it anymore...

Now, I know this is a strange pick, especially since I'm pretty sure Mary wasn't venerated as much as she is now when she was alive, but seriously now people, what says "celebrity" more than heated debates about a person's sexual history?

In all seriousness, though, Mary's face (or what we think of as her face) is seen everywhere and its always a big deal...

Plus who wouldn't want Holy Toast? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4019295.stm
Click to expand...
Nice. I was "thisclose" to drafting her and placing her as my Saint. But I figured I'd get a lot of "what did she actually do except give birth?" comments. Celebrity is a good category, she's one of the most recognized faces now - even though she wasn't during her own time.
 
GTBilly said:
timschochet said:
Question for you, Larry: if I were drafting, and I selected Jesus, and immediately put him in celebrity, would it bother you? Would you be offended in any way?
Click to expand...
Being Catholicish I know that Jesus would roll with the punches and if people wanted him to be a celebrity then he'd be good with that. Him and his Peeps only care about the message and if more people get the message through his celebrity then so be it.
Click to expand...
Only problem I'd have with it is I doubt he'd be recognized.
 
mad sweeney said:
FUBAR said:
timschochet said:
Yankee23Fan said:
timschochet said:
Yankee I like almost all your picks, except for one misplaced category, and one pick I think you overrate:

The misplaced category is St. Augustine. He is one of the most important religious figures in history, and I know he is a Saint as far as the Catholic Church is concerned, but he hardly defines what I meant by the category term "saint"; I was relating that to humanitarian. I think Augustine is far more suited to the religious figure category.

The overrated pick is Madonna. I really like Madonna, always have, but one of the top 20 musician/performers in history? By record sales, sure. By merit, I just can't go there.
Click to expand...
First, the Saint thing - are you serious? Why put saint in that category then? And not for nothing, but by definition a saint is someone that belongs in the discussion of people that have done good for the world at some personal sacrifice. But, if that is where this is going then move him to religious figure. I suggest you make this a little clear to everyone as we move forward.

Now, to Madonna - if we don't go by record sales, what do we go by? And before you say influence in the medium, be careful because you are going to eliminate from contention a ton of people that can go there. She is the most successful woman in music worldwide according to the Guiness Book of Records. I'm not sure what you want in that category if it isn't that.
Click to expand...
Your definition of saint is exactly what I meant. But Augustine, from what I've read of his life, was not made a Saint because of his good doings, but because of his contributions to the role of the church and Christianity. This is an important distinction. However, I am not the judge of either category, nor will I instruct the judges. If you want to keep him in the category he's in, fine. I don't know how to answer your second question. Certainly popularity is a factor, so is influence, so is talent. Madonna has some of each, though the most she offers by far is popularity. I have no idea how to weigh each factor; perhaps Uncle Humuna does. All I know is, without making a list, I can intuitively say she doesn't make MY top 20. Neither does Miles Davis, though he's closer. The Beatles, Louis Armstrong, and the Rolling Stones all do make my top 20, though I don't know where I place the Stones. The other two are easily top 5.
Click to expand...
I'd probably put Stones in the top 5 groups, almost certainly top 10. How they compare to some individuals, I'm not sure.The question for me is influence, and while the list isn't well renowned, Madonna definitely has influenced a few performers who are playing today. I'll avoid mentioning their names on that .0001% chance anyone thinks they'd be worth taking.
Click to expand...
I would have to say that the Stones have influenced more people (probably to an order of magnitude) than Madonna whose names are very, very renown.
Click to expand...
I agree.
 
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