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World's Greatest Draft (1 Viewer)

Thorn said:
Doug B said:
Thorn said:
I don't get it. :lmao:
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Ich bin ein Berliner
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Well that's just silly. Now let's talk about what a great pick I just made.
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Great urban legend. If I were to say, "I am a New Yorker", no one would chuckle and think I was saying I am a weekly magazine.Yes, back to Jack and Jackie....

JFK's classic line, at a state dinner in Versailles, is at 1:05.

Can't wait for the playoff matchups: Marilyn v. Jackie

Jack couldn't decide, now you can.

:lmao:

 
Ozymandias said:
Thorn said:
Doug B said:
Thorn said:
I don't get it. :hifive:
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Ich bin ein Berliner
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Well that's just silly. Now let's talk about what a great pick I just made.
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Well, he may have been a Jelly Doughnut, but he was a charismatic figure, somewhat reminiscent of Obama today. Popular around the world, he was more celebrity than heavyweight. What ended up elevating him to almost demigod status, was his death. However, prior to his assassination, there was considerable doubt as to whether he would be reelected.
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JFK would have beaten Goldwater by a greater margin than LBJ. No question about it.
 
Fennis said:
Ozymandias said:
Thorn said:
Doug B said:
Thorn said:
I don't get it. :unsure:
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Ich bin ein Berliner
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Well that's just silly. Now let's talk about what a great pick I just made.
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Well, he may have been a Jelly Doughnut, but he was a charismatic figure, somewhat reminiscent of Obama today. Popular around the world, he was more celebrity than heavyweight. What ended up elevating him to almost demigod status, was his death. However, prior to his assassination, there was considerable doubt as to whether he would be reelected.
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JFK would have beaten Goldwater by a greater margin than LBJ. No question about it.
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:goodposting:
 
Andy forced my hand here taking John Williams but I'm going here now to make sure he doesn't get sniped. The fact of the category is that there is one modern titan that deserves to be taken. Beethoven and the greates of the past are worthy, but let's not forget the greats of today whose chops aren't matched by many. As my composer I select:

Andrew Lloyd Webber , Baron Lloyd-Webber (born 22 March 1948) is an English composer of musical theatre, the elder son of William Lloyd Webber and also the brother of the renowned cellist Julian Lloyd Webber. Lloyd Webber started composing at the age of six and published his first piece at the age of nine.

Lord Lloyd-Webber has achieved great popular success, with several musicals that have run for more than a decade both in the West End and on Broadway. He has composed 13 musicals, a song cycle, a set of variations, two film scores, and a Latin Requiem Mass. He has also gained a number of honours, including a knighthood in 1992, followed by a peerage, seven Tony Awards, three Grammy Awards, an Academy Award, an Emmy Award, seven Olivier Awards, a Golden Globe, and the Kennedy Center Honors in 2006. Several of his songs, notably "The Music of the Night" from The Phantom of the Opera, "I Don't Know How to Love Him" from Jesus Christ Superstar, "Don't Cry for Me, Argentina" from Evita and "Memory" from Cats have been widely recorded and were hits outside of their parent musicals. His company, the Really Useful Group, is one of the largest theatre operators in London.

Producers in several parts of the UK have staged productions, including national tours, of Lloyd Webber's musicals under licence from the Really Useful Group.

Professional career

[edit] Early years

Webber's first major collaboration with lyricist Tim Rice was The Likes of Us, a musical based on the true story of Thomas John Barnardo. It was not performed, however, until as recently as 2005 when a production was staged at Lloyd Webber's Sydmonton Festival. Stylistically, The Likes of Us is fashioned after the Broadway musical of the '40s and '50s; it opens with a traditional overture comprising a medley of tunes from the show, and the score reflects some of Lloyd Webber's early influences, particularly Richard Rodgers, Frederick Loewe, and Lionel Bart. In this respect, it is markedly different from the composer's later work which tends to be either predominantly or wholly through-composed and closer in form to opera than to the Broadway musical.

Tim Rice was often joked as "Wild Rice", for Andrew thought some of his lyrics had meaning, and others were just crazy.

Around this time, Lloyd Webber and Rice also wrote a number of individual pop songs that were recorded as singles for record labels. Wes Sands, Ross Hannaman, Paul Raven, and Gary Bond are among the many artists to have recorded early Lloyd Webber/Rice tunes. A selection of these early recordings were re-released on the 5-CD compilation, Andrew Lloyd Webber: Now and Forever (2003).

In 1967 Lloyd Webber and Rice wrote a song for the Eurovision Song Contest called "Try It and See", which was not selected. The tune of this song eventually became the tune for "King Herod's Song" in the musical Jesus Christ Superstar.

In 1968, Lloyd Webber and Rice were commissioned to write a piece for Colet Court which resulted in Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat, a retelling of the biblical story of Joseph in which Lloyd Webber and Rice humorously pastiche a number of musical styles such as Calypso and country music. The musical follows the light-hearted, irreverent tone of The Likes of Us but is more modern in style, with a closer affinity to contemporary pop music than its predecessor and reflecting a wider range of musical styles. Andrew Lloyd Webber, who is a devoted admirer of Elvis Presley, based the character of Pharaoh on the singer, who in turn recorded It's Easy for You, one of Lloyd Webber's compositions during his last session on 29 October 1976, and featured as the last track on the Moody Blue album.[3] Joseph began life as a short cantata that gained some recognition on its second staging with a favourable review in The Times. For its subsequent performances, the show underwent a number of revisions by Lloyd Webber and Rice with the inclusion of additional songs that expanded the musical to a more substantial length. This culminated in a two hour long production being staged in the West End on the back of the success of their third musical, Jesus Christ Superstar (1970).

Jesus Christ Superstar had been released as a concept album starring Ian Gillan prior to being staged in the West End at the Lyceum Theatre. The musical is based on the last days in the life of Jesus Christ. While Joseph was intended as a light-hearted family show, the music in Jesus Christ Superstar is at times dark and unsettling, particularly in the scenes that deal with the crucifixion, the plotting priests and the conflict between Jesus and Judas. The rock idiom is used as a thematic device in Jesus Christ Superstar and the musical was billed as a Rock Opera in much the same way as Tommy by The Who had been before it. However, some of the music is inherently classical in style, particularly the instrumental passages such as John Nineteen: Forty-One and the more avant-garde music that accompanies the crucifixion scene.

The planned follow up to Jesus Christ Superstar was a musical comedy based on the Jeeves and Wooster novels by P. G. Wodehouse. Tim Rice was uncertain about this venture, partly because of his concern that he might not be able to do justice to the novels that he and Lloyd Webber so admired (Rice, 1999). After doing some initial work on the lyrics, he pulled out of the project and Lloyd Webber subsequently wrote the musical with Alan Ayckbourn who provided the book and lyrics. The musical, Jeeves, failed to make any impact at the box office and closed after a short run of only three weeks. Many years later Lloyd Webber and Ayckbourn revisited this project, producing a thoroughly reworked and more successful version of the musical entitled By Jeeves (1996). Only two of the songs from the original production remained ("Half a Moment" and "Banjo Boy").

[edit] Mid-1970s

Lloyd Webber collaborated with Rice once again to write Evita (1976 in London/1979 in U.S.), a musical based on the life of Eva Peron. As with Jesus Christ Superstar, the musical was released first as a concept album and featured Julie Covington singing the part of Eva Peron.

The song "Don't Cry for Me Argentina" became a hit single and the musical was staged at the Prince Edward Theatre in a production directed by Harold Prince and starring Elaine Paige in the title role. The first Eva Peron on Broadway in NYC was played by Patti Lupone. She won a Tony for the role, and after experienced growth of nodes on her vocal cords. Much of the music in Evita is classical in style: the opening features a choral piece ("Requiem for Evita"), and there is a choral interlude in "Oh What a Circus". There are a number of instrumental passages throughout the musical such as the orchestral version of the "Lament" and the introduction to "Don't Cry for Me Argentina", all of which form an integral part of the framework of the composition. There is, however, quite an eclectic use of styles in Evita, with some gentle ballads such as "High Flying, Adored" and "Another Suitcase in Another Hall", and the rhythmic, Latinate styles prominent in pieces such as "Buenos Aires", "And the Money Kept Rolling in (And Out)" as well as the slower "On This Night of a Thousand Stars". There is some rock music that can be heard briefly in "Oh What a Circus", "Peron's Latest Flame" and "The Lady's Got Potential" (a rock song that was cut from the original production but reinstated for the 1996 film with revised lyrics by Tim Rice). Evita was a highly successful show that ran for ten years in the West End. It transferred to Broadway in 1979. Rice and Lloyd Webber parted ways soon after Evita.

Lloyd Webber then embarked on a solo project, the Variations (album), with his cellist brother Julian Lloyd Webber based on the 24th Caprice by Paganini. It was a massive hit in the United Kingdom reaching number two in the pop album chart (1978). The main theme is still used as the theme tune for ITV1's long-running South Bank Show.

[edit] 1980s

Andrew Lloyd Webber embarked on his next project without a lyricist, turning instead to the poetry of T. S. Eliot. Cats (1981) is a dance musical based on Eliot's Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats (1939), which the composer recalled as having been a childhood favourite. The songs of the musical comprise Eliot's verse set to music by the composer, the principal exception being the most famous song from the musical, "Memory", for which the lyrics were written by Trevor Nunn after an Eliot poem entitled "Rhapsody on a Windy Night". Also, a brief song entitled "The Moments of Happiness" was taken from a passage in Eliot's Four Quartets. An unusual musical in terms of its construction, the overture incorporates a fugue and there are occasions when the music accompanies spoken verse. The set, consisting of an oversized junk yard, remains the same throughout the show without any scene changes. Lloyd Webber's eclecticism is very strong here; musical genres range from classical to pop, music hall, jazz and electroacoustic music as well as hymn-like songs such as "The Addressing of Cats", which Old Deuteronomy sings. Cats was originally intended to be a song cycle but when Valerie Eliot provided some fragments of unpublished poetry by her late husband that included a character named Grizabella who is shunned by the tribe as well as the concept of a rebirth for a chosen Cat at the Jellicle Ball, it was apparent that there might be a story that could provide a possible framework for a musical. It was to become the longest running musical in London, where it ran for 21 years until it closed, and on Broadway, spanning a reign of eighteen years which later would be broken by another Andrew Lloyd Webber musical.

Starlight Express, a musical also directed by Trevor Nunn, is similar in its theatrical concept to Cats in that it also features dancers in costume representing non-human characters. However, unlike Cats, the music is mostly in the realm of disco and pop with one or two pastiche songs such as the Country and Western styled "U.N.C.O.U.P.L.E.D.", love duet Only You and the title song, Starlight Express. In some ways this musical could be seen as more of a return to the style of Joseph, although the latter was more varied in its use of musical styles and influences. The plot features around a group of toy railway trains, portrayed by actors on roller-skates, who come to life inside the mind of a small boy. The characters race to become the 'fastest engine in the world', and in the end, the underdog, Rusty, triumphs, winning the race and the heart of a beautiful observation car, Pearl. Starlight has seen many stars in it's cast, notably Ray Shell, the late Stephanie Lawrence, James Gillan, Jo Gibb, Greg Ellis and Reva Rice. The show is a spectacle, featuring live stunts by professional skaters and a large racetrack built around the audience. Starlight Express was a commercial hit but received negative reviews from the critics. It enjoyed a record run in the West End, but ran for less than three years on Broadway. The show has also seen two tours of the US, as well as a three-year UK touring production, which will transfer to New Zealand later in 2009. The show also runs full-time in a custom-built theatre in Bochum, Germany, where it is has been running for twenty one years to date.

Lloyd Webber wrote a Requiem Mass which premiered in New York on 25 February 1985, at St. Thomas Church. This composition had been inspired by an article he had read about the plight of Cambodian orphans. It was dedicated to his father, William Lloyd Webber, who had died in 1982. Although this might seem like a surprising shift in direction from the modern musical, church music had been a part of the composer's upbringing and Lloyd Webber had on a number of occasions written sacred music for the annual Sydmonton Festival (Snelson, 2004). Lloyd Webber received a Grammy Award in 1986 for Requiem in the category of best classical composition. Perhaps surprisingly given the classical nature of the work, the Pie Jesu from Requiem achieved a high placing on the UK pop charts.

In 1986, Lloyd Webber premièred his next musical, The Phantom of the Opera, inspired by the 1911 Gaston Leroux novel. He wrote the part of Christine for his then wife, Sarah Brightman, who played the role in the original London and Broadway productions alongside Michael Crawford as the Phantom. The production was directed by Harold Prince, who had also earlier directed Evita. Charles Hart wrote the lyrics for the musical with some additional material provided by Richard Stilgoe, and Lloyd Webber co-wrote the musical's book with Stilgoe. Lloyd Webber's score is sometimes operatic in style but he maintains the form and structure of a musical throughout. The fully-fledged operatic writing is reserved principally for the subsidiary characters such as the theatre managers, Andre and Firmin; their Prima Donna, Carlotta; and principal tenor, Piangi. Fittingly, it is also used to provide the content of the fictional "operas" that are taking place within the show itself. Here, Lloyd Webber affectionately pastiches various styles from the grand operas of Meyerbeer through to Mozart and even Gilbert and Sullivan (Coveney, 1999). These pieces are often presented as musical fragments, interrupted by dialogue or action sequences in order to clearly define the musical's "show within a show" format. The musical extracts we hear from the phantom's opera, "Don Juan Triumphant", during the latter stages of the show, are much more dissonant and modern - suggesting, perhaps, that the phantom is ahead of his time artistically (Snelson, 2004). This is also displayed when The Phantom makes his entrance on the show's title song. Andrew had said himself that the title song was "Rock n' roll merely masquerading as opera." For the characters of Christine, the Phantom, and Raoul, the direct and "natural" style of modern song is used rather than the more decorative aspects of aria; their material provides the musical centre of the piece.

The musical became a phenomenal hit and is still running in both the West End and on Broadway; in January 2006 it overtook Cats as the longest running musical on Broadway.

Aspects of Love followed in 1989, a musical based on the story by David Garnett. The lyrics were by Don Black and Charles Hart and the original production was directed by Trevor Nunn. There was a noticeable shift of emphasis towards a quieter and more intimate theatrical experience; the staging and production values were less elaborate than Phantom of the Opera and Lloyd Webber chose to write for a smaller musical ensemble making the through composed score more akin to a chamber work. The musical had a successful run of four years in London but did not fare nearly as well on Broadway, where it closed after less than a year. Aspects of Love has since gone on to perform in successful National Tours of the UK and is begining to enjoy more acclaim than its original production. Stand out songs from the production include Anything But Lonely, Hand Me The Wine & The Dice and Love Changes Everything. Lloyd Webber has gone on record saying that he feels that Aspects of Love will be one of his works that stands the test of time and even going as far as to compare it to South Pacific.

[edit] 1990s

Lloyd Webber was asked to write a song for the 1992 Barcelona Olympics and composed "Amigos Para Siempre — Friends for Life" with Don Black providing the lyrics. This song was performed by Sarah Brightman and Jose Carreras.

Lloyd Webber had toyed with the idea of writing a musical based on Billy Wilder's critically acclaimed movie, Sunset Boulevard, since the early 1970s when he saw the film, but the project didn't come to fruition until after the completion of Aspects of Love when the composer finally managed to secure the rights from Paramount Pictures[4] The composer worked with two collaborators, as he had done on Aspects of Love; this time Christopher Hampton and Don Black shared equal credit for the book and lyrics. The show opened at the Adelphi Theatre in London on 12 July 1993, and ran for 1,529 performances. Patti LuPone, who had played the role of Eva Peron in the original Broadway production of Evita, was cast as Norma Desmond, a former silent film star who is shunned by Hollywood in the era of talking pictures. Lloyd Webber wrote for a larger musical ensemble than he had done on Aspects of Love; the sweeping romanticism of the overture and of Norma Desmond's themes echo the grandiose style associated with the golden era of Hollywood, whilst the jazz elements in the score and the restless quality of Joe Gillis's music are used, in contrast, to represent a more modern age. Although Sunset Boulevard is a book musical, the score is predominantly through-composed with much of the dialogue underscored and recitatives used at certain key moments between songs. In spite of the show's popularity and extensive run in London's West End, it lost money due to the sheer expense of the production.

Lloyd Webber's many other musical theatre works include Whistle Down the Wind, a musical written with lyrics supplied by rock legend Jim Steinman. Originally opening in Washington, Lloyd Webber was reportedly not happy with the casting or Harold Prince's production and the show was subsequently revised for a London staging directed by Gale Edwards, the production is probably most notable for the Number One hit from Boyzone "No Matter What" which only left the UK charts when the price of the CD single was changed to drop it out of the official top ten. Song and Dance, The Woman in White which Lloyd Webber explored his life long love affair with the English Choral and Pastoral tradition. The score of The Woman In White was one of Lloyd Webber's least successful in terms of critical and audience response, but stands as one of the few original musicals to premiere in the West End in the first decade of the 21st Century. The show opened to a bad critical response on Broadway and soon sank without trace. One of Lloyd Webber's most understated and innovative worksThe Beautiful Game (musical) opened in London and has never been seen on Broadway. In the show Lloyd Webber and lyricist Ben Elton deal with a Romeo and Juliet style plot set against the conflicts in Northern Ireland in the early 1970's. The piece marked a return to dramatic form for Lloyd Webber after Whistle Down The Wind, and had a respectable run at The Cambridge Theatre in London. The show has just been re-worked into a new musical The Boys in the Photograph which had its world premier at The Liverpool Institute for Performing Arts in April 2008.

While some of his works have had enormous commercial success, his career has not been without failures, especially in the United States. Song and Dance, Starlight Express, and The Woman In White, all successes in London, did not meet the same reception in New York, and all lost money in short, critically panned runs. In 1995, Sunset Boulevard became a very successful Broadway show, opening with the largest advance in Broadway history, and winning seven Tony Awards that year. However, owing to high weekly costs, it became the biggest economic musical failure in history, losing 25 million dollars. His subsequent shows (Whistle Down the Wind and The Beautiful Game) did not make it to Broadway, and his most recent musical The Woman in White closed after a very short run in New York. This closing is largely credited to many absences in the cast for many of the shows; only 39 of the 108 performances had the full cast. Maria Friedman and Michael Ball both missed shows frequently; the former was battling breast cancer and the latter suffered a throat infection. For part of the run Ms Friedman was replaced by Judy Kuhn who requested that she received no star billing as she was standing in for Ms Friedman rather than "taking over" the part.

Somewhat unusually, Lloyd Webber (along with Nigel Wright) was responsible for a 1992 Eurodance single featuring music from the computer game Tetris.[5][6] Released under the name Doctor Spin, Tetris reached #6 on the UK charts,[7] although Lloyd Webber's involvement was not publicised. He was also involved with Bombalurina's 1990 cover of "Itsy Bitsy Teenie Weenie Yellow Polka Dot Bikini" (UK #1).[8][9] The band, whose lead singer was children's TV presenter Timmy Mallett was named after a character in the musical Cats.[10]

[edit] 2000s to present day

This section may contain an inappropriate mixture of prose and timeline. Please help convert this timeline into prose or, if necessary, a list.

Lloyd Webber is currently producing a staging of The Sound of Music, which débuted November 2006. He made the controversial decision to choose an unknown to play leading lady Maria, who was found through the reality television show How Do You Solve a Problem Like Maria?, in which he was a judge. The winner of the show was Connie Fisher.

There have been a number of film adaptations of Lloyd Webber's musicals: Jesus Christ Superstar (1973) was directed by Norman Jewison, Evita (1996) was directed by Alan Parker, and most recently The Phantom of the Opera was directed by Joel Schumacher (and co-produced by Lloyd Webber). Lloyd Webber produced Bombay Dreams with Indian composer A. R. Rahman in 2002.

 
This guy was seriously messed up in the head. It may have been from medical conditions but just weird stuff.

14.16 Francois Duvalier- Papa Doc- Villain

Dr. François Duvalier, known as "Papa Doc" (April 14, 1907 – April 21, 1971[3]), was the President of Haiti from 1957 to 1971. In 1964 he made himself President for Life. He ruled until his death in 1971, in a regime marked by autocracy, corruption, and state-sponsored terrorism through his private militia known as Tonton Macoutes. It has been estimated that he was responsible for 30,000 dead and exile of thousands more.

In addition to his pervasive control over Haitian life, Duvalier also fostered an extensive personality cult around himself, and claimed to be the physical embodiment of the island nation. Within the country, Duvalier used both political murder and expulsion to suppress his opponents; estimates of those killed are as high as 30,000.[19] Haitian communists and suspected communists, in particular, bore the brunt of the government's repression.[16]

Attacks on Duvalier from within the military were treated as especially serious; in 1967 the fact that bombs were detonated near the Presidential Palace led to his execution of twenty Presidential Guard officers.[20]
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Andrew Lloyd Webber is a hack. I cant argue with his popularity, but I've yet to see a show of his that I loved. At best they are 'eh'.

 
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Fennis said:
Andrew Lloyd Webber
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is a hack. I cant argue with his popularity, but I've yet to see a show of his that I loved. At best they are 'eh'.

Couldn't agree more.Not work that will stand the test of time IMO.Actually, the mere mention of his name causes me to throw up in my mouth a little.Redacted your quote so I don't have to look at it again.
 
BobbyLayne said:
Fennis said:
Andrew Lloyd Webber
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is a hack. I cant argue with his popularity, but I've yet to see a show of his that I loved. At best they are 'eh'.
Couldn't agree more.Not work that will stand the test of time IMO.Actually, the mere mention of his name causes me to throw up in my mouth a little.Redacted your quote so I don't have to look at it again.Consider me shocked (1) that he got drafted at all and (2) that he got drafted by Yankee. Oof.
 
Thorn said:
BobbyLayne said:
Fennis said:
Andrew Lloyd Webber
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is a hack. I cant argue with his popularity, but I've yet to see a show of his that I loved. At best they are 'eh'.
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Couldn't agree more.Not work that will stand the test of time IMO.Actually, the mere mention of his name causes me to throw up in my mouth a little.Redacted your quote so I don't have to look at it again.
Consider me shocked (1) that he got drafted at all and (2) that he got drafted by Yankee. Oof.Did somebody swiped his password?850 years since the Gregorian chant was organized, 250 years since Haydn started laying down orchestral symphonies.Top 20 composer?I don't get it.
 
18 Composers drafted so far -- feel free to order them:

1.14 - Usual21: Ludwig van Beethoven , Composer

2.3 - Bobby Layne: Wolfgang Mozart, Composer

2.19 - Larry Boy 44: Johann Sebastian Bach, Composer

7.19 - Mister CIA: Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky , Composer

8.16 - Acer FC: Johannes Brahms, Composer

9.1 - Mario Kart: Antonio Vivaldi, Composer

9.3 - Arsenal of Doom: Frédéric Chopin, Composer

9.15 - thatguy: Richard Wagner, Composer

10.8 - John Madden's Lunchbox: Irving Berlin, Composer

10.9 - higgins: Antonín Dvorák, Composer

10.11 - Mad Sweeney: George Handel, Composer

10.12 - Doug B: Joseph Haydn, Composer

10.14 - Thorn: Johann Strauss II, Composer

11.20 - Abrantes: Igor Stravinsky, Composer

13.8 - DC Thunder: Modest Mussorgsky, Composer

13.16 - Andy Dufresne: John Williams, Composer

14.10 - Big Rocks: Edward Elgar, Composer

14.15 - Yankee23Fan: Andrew Lloyd Webber, Composer

 
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Fennis said:
Ozymandias said:
Thorn said:
Doug B said:
Thorn said:
I don't get it. :shark:
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Ich bin ein Berliner
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Well that's just silly. Now let's talk about what a great pick I just made.
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Well, he may have been a Jelly Doughnut, but he was a charismatic figure, somewhat reminiscent of Obama today. Popular around the world, he was more celebrity than heavyweight. What ended up elevating him to almost demigod status, was his death. However, prior to his assassination, there was considerable doubt as to whether he would be reelected.
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JFK would have beaten Goldwater by a greater margin than LBJ. No question about it.
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Fascinating that you think so. Time Magazine's cover story for the week Kennedy was assassinated was "Can Kennedy be re-elected?". and the overall impression was: it would be very difficult. His approval ratings had been steadily dropping, and were at 56% before he was assassinated. It is by no means certain that the Republicans would have nominated Goldwater if circumstances had been different.
 
Fennis said:
Ozymandias said:
Thorn said:
Doug B said:
Thorn said:
I don't get it. :shark:
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Ich bin ein Berliner
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Well that's just silly. Now let's talk about what a great pick I just made.
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Well, he may have been a Jelly Doughnut, but he was a charismatic figure, somewhat reminiscent of Obama today. Popular around the world, he was more celebrity than heavyweight. What ended up elevating him to almost demigod status, was his death. However, prior to his assassination, there was considerable doubt as to whether he would be reelected.
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JFK would have beaten Goldwater by a greater margin than LBJ. No question about it.
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That's highly debateable. The reason JFK went to Dallas was because of the support in the South he was losing due to the civil rights legislation he was starting to push. His poll numbers were down. Vietnam was starting to become a real problem as was relations with the Soviets. He was no slam dunk for re-election let alone by the landslide proportions LBJ got BECAUSE JFK was assassinated.
 
Doug B said:
18 Composers drafted so far -- feel free to order them:

1.14 - Usual21: Ludwig van Beethoven , Composer

2.3 - Bobby Layne: Wolfgang Mozart, Composer

2.19 - Larry Boy 44: Johann Sebastian Bach, Composer

7.19 - Mister CIA: Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky , Composer

8.16 - Acer FC: Johannes Brahms, Composer

9.1 - Mario Kart: Antonio Vivaldi, Composer

9.3 - Arsenal of Doom: Frédéric Chopin, Composer

9.15 - thatguy: Richard Wagner, Composer

10.8 - John Madden's Lunchbox: Irving Berlin, Composer

10.9 - higgins: Antonín Dvorák, Composer

10.11 - Mad Sweeney: George Handel, Composer

10.12 - Doug B: Joseph Haydn, Composer

10.14 - Thorn: Johann Strauss II, Composer

11.20 - Abrantes: Igor Stravinsky, Composer

13.8 - DC Thunder: Modest Mussorgsky, Composer

13.16 - Andy Dufresne: John Williams, Composer

14.10 - Big Rocks: Edward Elgar, Composer

14.15 - Yankee23Fan: Andrew Lloyd Webber, Composer
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Let's just say the Top 3-4 and the bottom 3-4 will be a lot easier to figure out than the middle and leave it at that.Your earlier comment was on point; lot of big name Tier 2 and Tier 3 guys left out there.

 
I happen to like Andrew Lloyd Webber; I've seen and enjoyed several of his musicals. I own some CDs and listen to them from time to time. I also enjoy John Williams and Irving Berlin.

But if I were judging this category, those three would have to be at the bottom of my list (not sure what order.) It's like Tolkien and Asimov again- not that they're not enjoyable, but you're comparing them to the great masters, and it doesn't work for me. It's not a question of time but of sophistication.

 
perhaps an unconventional pick, could be a celebrity, but I'll make him my Saint:

Saint Nicholas (Greek: Άγιος Νικόλαος , Agios Nikolaos, "victory of the people") (270 - 6 December 346) is the common name for Nicholas of Myra, a saint and Bishop of Myra (in Lycia, part of modern-day Turkey). Because of the many miracles attributed to his intercession, he is also known as Nicholas the Wonderworker. He had a reputation for secret gift-giving, such as putting coins in the shoes of those who left them out for him, and thus became the model for Santa Claus, whose English name comes from the German Sankt Niklaus. His reputation evolved among the faithful, as is common for early Christian saints.[2] In 1087, his relics were furtively translated to Bari, in southern Italy; for this reason, he is also known as Nicholas of Bari.

The historical Saint Nicholas is remembered and revered among Catholic and Orthodox Christians. He is also honoured by various Anglican and Lutheran churches. Saint Nicholas is the patron saint of sailors, merchants, archers, and children, and students in Greece, Belgium, Romania, Bulgaria, Georgia, Russia, the Republic of Macedonia, Slovakia, Serbia and Montenegro. He is also the patron saint of Barranquilla, Bari, Amsterdam, Beit Jala, and Liverpool. In 1809, the New-York Historical Society convened and retroactively named Sancte Claus the patron saint of Nieuw Amsterdam, the Dutch name for New York City.[3] He was also a patron of the Varangian Guard of the Byzantine emperors, who protected his relics in Bari.

Saint Nicholas is the patron saint of sailors and is often called upon by mariners who are in danger of drowning or being shipwrecked. In Germany, survivors of shipwrecks traditionally brought patches of sailcloth to Saint Nicholas as votive offerings. According to one legend, as a young man, Nicholas went to study in Alexandria and on one of his sea voyages from Myra to Alexandria, he is said to have saved the life of a sailor who fell from the ship's rigging during a storm. In a colourful version of this legend, Nicholas saved the man on his voyage back from Alexandria to Myra and, upon his arrival, took the sailor to the church. At that time, the previous bishop of the city had just died and the church fathers were instructed in a dream to choose for their next bishop, a "man who conquers" (Greek: nikei). While the saint was praying, the loose-lipped sailor went around telling how courageously he was saved by the man Nikei-Laos, upon which the church elders had no choice but to elect Nicholas as their new bishop.

Another legend tells how a terrible famine struck the island and a malicious butcher lured three little children into his house, where he slaughtered and butchered them, placing their remains in a barrel to cure, planning to sell them off as ham. Saint Nicholas, visiting the region to care for the hungry, not only saw through the butcher's horrific crime but also resurrected the three boys from the barrel by his prayers. Another version of this story, possibly formed around the eleventh century, claims that the butcher's victims were instead three clerks who wished to stay the night. The man murdered them, and was advised by his wife to dispose of them by turning them into meat pies. The Saint saw through this and brought the men back to life.

In his most famous exploit however, a poor man had three daughters but could not afford a proper dowry for them. This meant that they would remain unmarried and probably, in absence of any other possible employment would have to become prostitutes. Hearing of the poor man's plight, Nicholas decided to help him but being too modest to help the man in public, (or to save the man the humiliation of accepting charity), he went to his house under the cover of night and threw three purses (one for each daughter) filled with gold coins through the window opening into the man's house. One version has him throwing one purse for three consecutive nights. Another has him throw the purses over a period of three years, each time the night before one of the daughters comes "of age". Invariably, the third time the father lies in wait, trying to discover the identity of their benefactor. In one version the father confronts the saint, only to have Saint Nicholas say it is not him he should thank, but God alone. In another version, Nicholas learns of the poor man's plan and drops the third bag down the chimney instead; a variant holds that the daughter had washed her stockings that evening and hung them over the embers to dry, and that the bag of gold fell into the stocking. For his help to the poor, Nicholas is the patron saint of pawnbrokers; the three gold balls traditionally hung outside a pawnshop symbolize the three sacks of gold. People then began to suspect that he was behind a large number of other anonymous gifts to the poor, using the inheritance from his wealthy parents. After he died, people in the region continued to give to the poor anonymously, and such gifts were still often attributed to St. Nicholas.
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Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus.
 
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I don't agree that Webber is a hack at all. And I disagree considerably with the sentiment that his work won't be remembered. Cats and Phantom alone will stand the test of time, and pretty much already have.

 
timschochet said:
I happen to like Andrew Lloyd Webber; I've seen and enjoyed several of his musicals. I own some CDs and listen to them from time to time. I also enjoy John Williams and Irving Berlin.But if I were judging this category, those three would have to be at the bottom of my list (not sure what order.) It's like Tolkien and Asimov again- not that they're not enjoyable, but you're comparing them to the great masters, and it doesn't work for me. It's not a question of time but of sophistication.
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Drivel. Listen to something like the Schindler's List soundtrack and it's every bit as "nuanced" and "sophisticated" as anything written by the "great masters."
 
timschochet said:
I happen to like Andrew Lloyd Webber; I've seen and enjoyed several of his musicals. I own some CDs and listen to them from time to time. I also enjoy John Williams and Irving Berlin.But if I were judging this category, those three would have to be at the bottom of my list (not sure what order.) It's like Tolkien and Asimov again- not that they're not enjoyable, but you're comparing them to the great masters, and it doesn't work for me. It's not a question of time but of sophistication.
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I wouldn't disagree with that bottom 3.Here's the thing: take those 3 out and Bach, Beethoven and Mozart. That middle 12 includes some of the most beautiful sounds mankind has ever know. Then realize x, y and z aren't on there yet, and oh wait I almost forget about a, b, c, d, e & f.Oh, well. It's still a very difficult category, like a lot of them. Probably makes the judges job somewhat easier having the obvious consensus plus definate outliers - maybe that is also true in a lot of the other categories?
 
timschochet said:
I happen to like Andrew Lloyd Webber; I've seen and enjoyed several of his musicals. I own some CDs and listen to them from time to time. I also enjoy John Williams and Irving Berlin.But if I were judging this category, those three would have to be at the bottom of my list (not sure what order.) It's like Tolkien and Asimov again- not that they're not enjoyable, but you're comparing them to the great masters, and it doesn't work for me. It's not a question of time but of sophistication.
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Don't agree. The greats in history are Beethoven, Mozart, Thiachovsky (I know I spelled that wrong) Wagner and others, many drafted. But franly, just because some of the guys left are from the 16th century doen't mean that they were great. I've listened to or played a lot of that music and alot of it is simply the music of the time, nothing great or spectacular like Beethoven. Why discount modern guys simply because of time? That isn't sophistication, it's arrogance.
 
Yankee23Fan said:
I don't agree that Webber is a hack at all. And I disagree considerably with the sentiment that his work won't be remembered. Cats and Phantom alone will stand the test of time, and pretty much already have.
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Cats is a prime example of what I was...nevermind.Yankee, earlier in the thread you made an excellent point that we need to drop things instead of all this going back and forth.

Its just...such a deep category...and you are generally one of most informed people in this draft...but I've already said too much.

I don't think we'll look back and say this was the worst pick out 440 by any means.

Sorry for piling on.

 
Andy Dufresne said:
timschochet said:
I happen to like Andrew Lloyd Webber; I've seen and enjoyed several of his musicals. I own some CDs and listen to them from time to time. I also enjoy John Williams and Irving Berlin.But if I were judging this category, those three would have to be at the bottom of my list (not sure what order.) It's like Tolkien and Asimov again- not that they're not enjoyable, but you're comparing them to the great masters, and it doesn't work for me. It's not a question of time but of sophistication.
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Drivel. Listen to something like the Schindler's List soundtrack and it's every bit as "nuanced" and "sophisticated" as anything written by the "great masters."
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Philistene. Anyone who would put Great Masters between quotation marks is part of the Great Unwashed, plebeians, hoi polloi. The Proles are going to teach us about the benefits of culture? :bag:
 
Ozymandias said:
Andy Dufresne said:
timschochet said:
I happen to like Andrew Lloyd Webber; I've seen and enjoyed several of his musicals. I own some CDs and listen to them from time to time. I also enjoy John Williams and Irving Berlin.

But if I were judging this category, those three would have to be at the bottom of my list (not sure what order.) It's like Tolkien and Asimov again- not that they're not enjoyable, but you're comparing them to the great masters, and it doesn't work for me. It's not a question of time but of sophistication.
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Drivel. Listen to something like the Schindler's List soundtrack and it's every bit as "nuanced" and "sophisticated" as anything written by the "great masters."
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Philistene. Anyone who would put Great Masters between quotation marks is part of the Great Unwashed, plebeians, hoi polloi. The Proles are going to teach us about the benefits of culture? :D
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:X Need more of this.

Moving on...I like the St. Nick pick, would not have thought of that one.

 
Doug B said:
FUBAR said:
perhaps an unconventional pick, could be a celebrity, but I'll make him my Saint:

Saint Nicholas
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Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus.
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Whaaaat? :X I've been having this pick in my back pocket forever ... was going to use him as a FFA-vote-getting Wild Card. Nice swipe.
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I may move him to WC, I need to see the judge's criteria. He probably doesn't stand well against Peter or others depending on what the judge is looking for.But, like you said, he'll garner some attention and was a great man.

 
BobbyLayne said:
timschochet said:
I happen to like Andrew Lloyd Webber; I've seen and enjoyed several of his musicals. I own some CDs and listen to them from time to time. I also enjoy John Williams and Irving Berlin.But if I were judging this category, those three would have to be at the bottom of my list (not sure what order.) It's like Tolkien and Asimov again- not that they're not enjoyable, but you're comparing them to the great masters, and it doesn't work for me. It's not a question of time but of sophistication.
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I wouldn't disagree with that bottom 3.Here's the thing: take those 3 out and Bach, Beethoven and Mozart. That middle 12 includes some of the most beautiful sounds mankind has ever know. Then realize x, y and z aren't on there yet, and oh wait I almost forget about a, b, c, d, e & f.Oh, well. It's still a very difficult category, like a lot of them. Probably makes the judges job somewhat easier having the obvious consensus plus definate outliers - maybe that is also true in a lot of the other categories?
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The problem is that some of the composers drafted were drafted because of one great composition. Granted, some of those singular movements are breathtaking, but some of these guys are pretty close to classical music's version of one hit wonders.Let's take just one example - Antonín Dvorák. His greatest work was, generally, two specific movements in one symphony, his Concerto in B, and one or two other speecific movements. He of course was much more prolific then that, but these are what he is "known" for.John Williams best known work dwarfs that by comparison. Some of the most memorable music in American music history is John Williams'. And as for Andrew Lloyd Webber, I contend that he dwarfs him as well. Dvorak has 4 big shots in his gun. Webber has Jesus Christ Superstar, Cats, Phantom of the Opera, Starlight Express and Evita. And not for nothing, but his range in composition is pretty darn extensive, unlike many of the classical guys who stayed close to their musical roots, so to speak.I'm not claiming he should be ranked higher then Beethoven - no one should - but to argue he has no place amongst the greatest composers in history simply because he didn't wear a whig and conduct in front of the king 400 years ago is mindblowingly insane. And I will go back to popularity of music. More people know Webber and Williams' and even Berlin's work then several of the guys drafted from long ago. I know that many here refuse to allow anything close to modern tastes intrude here, but the fact of the matter is that a composition of music can't live without enough people wanting to hear it.
 
Meeting is still going, but to keep things moving along -

Torquemada - Villain

Will add write up when I get out of this.

 
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Arsenal of Doom said:
Meeting is still going, but to keep things moving along -Torquemada - VillainWill add write up when I get out of this.
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VERY nice pick. If I didn't have Attila already, I would have taken him rounds ago. If we are to believe the legend, he's one of the worst villains ever. I don't believe the legends, but he was a bad dude made worse by his mandate from my celebrity's predecesor.
 
BobbyLayne said:
Yankee23Fan said:
I don't agree that Webber is a hack at all. And I disagree considerably with the sentiment that his work won't be remembered. Cats and Phantom alone will stand the test of time, and pretty much already have.
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Cats is a prime example of what I was...nevermind.Yankee, earlier in the thread you made an excellent point that we need to drop things instead of all this going back and forth.

Its just...such a deep category...and you are generally one of most informed people in this draft...but I've already said too much.

I don't think we'll look back and say this was the worst pick out 440 by any means.

Sorry for piling on.
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No, I don't mind. It is a very deep category. My only point is that it doesn't therefore mean that current composers should be left behind in the dust. After I knew I wasn't getting Beethoven, I was going to go for one other guy who was then taken. After that, to me - being a student of the music and therefore having my own opinion borne out of actual practice - many of the composers are similar and don't stand out except for one or two movements. Aside from Beethoven Wagner has the most powerful composition in classical music to me. But I wouldn't rank Wagner second either. Webber has achieved marked greatness with his compositions and they spaned generations already. Two of the top 5 most successful performances in broadway history are Cats and Phantom. Both have worldwide acclaim. How many composers can say that they sat at the top, without equal, for over 20 years the way Webber did with just one of his shows? Sure, others may have a certain greater influence, but that gets us to the old vs. new classic argument again. Beethoven has had several hundred years to influence. Webber, 40. Who isn't to say that broadway has been changed forever by his work, and therefore a rather large portion of entertainment in this world - theatre - isn't or hasn't been changed as well. He proved that you can actually make a broadway show popular with the masses and not just the broadway crowd. He proved that broadway music could jump out of theatre and influence and become rock, pop, etc.

Look. All high school bands will play a Beethoven song at some point. All will play a Mozart one as well. And similarly, every drama department will do a Webber production as well. His stuff is here to stay. Just like their stuff.

And I say all of this, in all posts, with this in mind - the show I hated the most seeing on Broadway was Cats. Hated it. Didn't feel for a single character. But Phantom is possibly the most powerful broadway show I've ever seen, only matched by Les Mis (which is ironic that they are contemporaries of each other).

 
Doug B said:
18 Composers drafted so far -- feel free to order them:

1.14 - Usual21: Ludwig van Beethoven , Composer

2.3 - Bobby Layne: Wolfgang Mozart, Composer

2.19 - Larry Boy 44: Johann Sebastian Bach, Composer

7.19 - Mister CIA: Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky , Composer

8.16 - Acer FC: Johannes Brahms, Composer

9.1 - Mario Kart: Antonio Vivaldi, Composer

9.3 - Arsenal of Doom: Frédéric Chopin, Composer

9.15 - thatguy: Richard Wagner, Composer

10.8 - John Madden's Lunchbox: Irving Berlin, Composer

10.9 - higgins: Antonín Dvorák, Composer

10.11 - Mad Sweeney: George Handel, Composer

10.12 - Doug B: Joseph Haydn, Composer

10.14 - Thorn: Johann Strauss II, Composer

11.20 - Abrantes: Igor Stravinsky, Composer

13.8 - DC Thunder: Modest Mussorgsky, Composer

13.16 - Andy Dufresne: John Williams, Composer

14.10 - Big Rocks: Edward Elgar, Composer

14.15 - Yankee23Fan: Andrew Lloyd Webber, Composer
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1 of these things is not like the other . . .
 
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Yankee23Fan said:
BobbyLayne said:
timschochet said:
I happen to like Andrew Lloyd Webber; I've seen and enjoyed several of his musicals. I own some CDs and listen to them from time to time. I also enjoy John Williams and Irving Berlin.But if I were judging this category, those three would have to be at the bottom of my list (not sure what order.) It's like Tolkien and Asimov again- not that they're not enjoyable, but you're comparing them to the great masters, and it doesn't work for me. It's not a question of time but of sophistication.
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I wouldn't disagree with that bottom 3.Here's the thing: take those 3 out and Bach, Beethoven and Mozart. That middle 12 includes some of the most beautiful sounds mankind has ever know. Then realize x, y and z aren't on there yet, and oh wait I almost forget about a, b, c, d, e & f.Oh, well. It's still a very difficult category, like a lot of them. Probably makes the judges job somewhat easier having the obvious consensus plus definate outliers - maybe that is also true in a lot of the other categories?
Click to expand...
The problem is that some of the composers drafted were drafted because of one great composition. Granted, some of those singular movements are breathtaking, but some of these guys are pretty close to classical music's version of one hit wonders.Let's take just one example - Antonín Dvorák. His greatest work was, generally, two specific movements in one symphony, his Concerto in B, and one or two other speecific movements. He of course was much more prolific then that, but these are what he is "known" for.John Williams best known work dwarfs that by comparison. Some of the most memorable music in American music history is John Williams'. And as for Andrew Lloyd Webber, I contend that he dwarfs him as well. Dvorak has 4 big shots in his gun. Webber has Jesus Christ Superstar, Cats, Phantom of the Opera, Starlight Express and Evita. And not for nothing, but his range in composition is pretty darn extensive, unlike many of the classical guys who stayed close to their musical roots, so to speak.I'm not claiming he should be ranked higher then Beethoven - no one should - but to argue he has no place amongst the greatest composers in history simply because he didn't wear a whig and conduct in front of the king 400 years ago is mindblowingly insane. And I will go back to popularity of music. More people know Webber and Williams' and even Berlin's work then several of the guys drafted from long ago. I know that many here refuse to allow anything close to modern tastes intrude here, but the fact of the matter is that a composition of music can't live without enough people wanting to hear it.
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I like both Andrew Lloyd Webber and John Williams. I have seen Cats about 5 times. Great. However, the problem is that they are so new, we have no idea if they will stand the test of time. I venture to say if you look at the list of greatest film composers, John Williams may well head the list, but most of the others have fallen into anonymity. Fifteen years from now, the same may happen to John Williams. If you look at those who wrote musicals which were wildly popular 50 years ago--smash hits on Broadway, made into films--they have disappeared. Fame is a fickle thing, and the fact that some have survived for 300 years is a testament to their genius and talent.
 
Ozymandias said:
Yankee23Fan said:
BobbyLayne said:
timschochet said:
I happen to like Andrew Lloyd Webber; I've seen and enjoyed several of his musicals. I own some CDs and listen to them from time to time. I also enjoy John Williams and Irving Berlin.But if I were judging this category, those three would have to be at the bottom of my list (not sure what order.) It's like Tolkien and Asimov again- not that they're not enjoyable, but you're comparing them to the great masters, and it doesn't work for me. It's not a question of time but of sophistication.
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I wouldn't disagree with that bottom 3.Here's the thing: take those 3 out and Bach, Beethoven and Mozart. That middle 12 includes some of the most beautiful sounds mankind has ever know. Then realize x, y and z aren't on there yet, and oh wait I almost forget about a, b, c, d, e & f.Oh, well. It's still a very difficult category, like a lot of them. Probably makes the judges job somewhat easier having the obvious consensus plus definate outliers - maybe that is also true in a lot of the other categories?
Click to expand...
The problem is that some of the composers drafted were drafted because of one great composition. Granted, some of those singular movements are breathtaking, but some of these guys are pretty close to classical music's version of one hit wonders.Let's take just one example - Antonín Dvorák. His greatest work was, generally, two specific movements in one symphony, his Concerto in B, and one or two other speecific movements. He of course was much more prolific then that, but these are what he is "known" for.John Williams best known work dwarfs that by comparison. Some of the most memorable music in American music history is John Williams'. And as for Andrew Lloyd Webber, I contend that he dwarfs him as well. Dvorak has 4 big shots in his gun. Webber has Jesus Christ Superstar, Cats, Phantom of the Opera, Starlight Express and Evita. And not for nothing, but his range in composition is pretty darn extensive, unlike many of the classical guys who stayed close to their musical roots, so to speak.I'm not claiming he should be ranked higher then Beethoven - no one should - but to argue he has no place amongst the greatest composers in history simply because he didn't wear a whig and conduct in front of the king 400 years ago is mindblowingly insane. And I will go back to popularity of music. More people know Webber and Williams' and even Berlin's work then several of the guys drafted from long ago. I know that many here refuse to allow anything close to modern tastes intrude here, but the fact of the matter is that a composition of music can't live without enough people wanting to hear it.
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I like both Andrew Lloyd Webber and John Williams. I have seen Cats about 5 times. Great. However, the problem is that they are so new, we have no idea if they will stand the test of time. I venture to say if you look at the list of greatest film composers, John Williams may well head the list, but most of the others have fallen into anonymity. Fifteen years from now, the same may happen to John Williams. If you look at those who wrote musicals which were wildly popular 50 years ago--smash hits on Broadway, made into films--they have disappeared. Fame is a fickle thing, and the fact that some have survived for 300 years is a testament to their genius and talent.
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Agreed, but then we by definition exclude anyone in the last, what 50-100-150 years from being drafted in this thing. That isn't right.As for Broadway 50 years ago, I'm not sure I agree with you. The titans there are still the titans for the most part.
 
Doug B said:
To me, celebrity is not merely "being known". It's being visually recognized.Think of it this way: King Tut is known, but he was never visually recognized anywhere outside of Egypt. What's visually recognized is his golden death mask.Mary? Never visually recognized widely while alive ... iconic interpretations of her image in art are, on the other hand, visually recognized.Elizabeth I to me is iffy, but more on the right track, as at least she was the subject of several famous portraits in her lifetime.Pushing forward in time, Ben Franklin is getting still closer -- though he was essentially a two-continent guy in his lifetime, he was well known enough to have toys and trinkets made in his likeness in Europe.Advancing in time still further, Charlie Chaplin is one of your earliest celebrities with global visual recognition. Chaplin is to capital-C Celebrity what Cro-Magnon Man is to modern humans.
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you are aware that your list is moving forward in time with technological advances regarding saving someone's image...the celebrity category shouldn't be about who's famous since the picture and/or movie was invented... that category sucks and has no place in this draft...
 
Yankee23Fan said:
Ozymandias said:
Yankee23Fan said:
BobbyLayne said:
timschochet said:
I happen to like Andrew Lloyd Webber; I've seen and enjoyed several of his musicals. I own some CDs and listen to them from time to time. I also enjoy John Williams and Irving Berlin.But if I were judging this category, those three would have to be at the bottom of my list (not sure what order.) It's like Tolkien and Asimov again- not that they're not enjoyable, but you're comparing them to the great masters, and it doesn't work for me. It's not a question of time but of sophistication.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't disagree with that bottom 3.Here's the thing: take those 3 out and Bach, Beethoven and Mozart. That middle 12 includes some of the most beautiful sounds mankind has ever know. Then realize x, y and z aren't on there yet, and oh wait I almost forget about a, b, c, d, e & f.Oh, well. It's still a very difficult category, like a lot of them. Probably makes the judges job somewhat easier having the obvious consensus plus definate outliers - maybe that is also true in a lot of the other categories?
Click to expand...
The problem is that some of the composers drafted were drafted because of one great composition. Granted, some of those singular movements are breathtaking, but some of these guys are pretty close to classical music's version of one hit wonders.Let's take just one example - Antonín Dvorák. His greatest work was, generally, two specific movements in one symphony, his Concerto in B, and one or two other speecific movements. He of course was much more prolific then that, but these are what he is "known" for.John Williams best known work dwarfs that by comparison. Some of the most memorable music in American music history is John Williams'. And as for Andrew Lloyd Webber, I contend that he dwarfs him as well. Dvorak has 4 big shots in his gun. Webber has Jesus Christ Superstar, Cats, Phantom of the Opera, Starlight Express and Evita. And not for nothing, but his range in composition is pretty darn extensive, unlike many of the classical guys who stayed close to their musical roots, so to speak.I'm not claiming he should be ranked higher then Beethoven - no one should - but to argue he has no place amongst the greatest composers in history simply because he didn't wear a whig and conduct in front of the king 400 years ago is mindblowingly insane. And I will go back to popularity of music. More people know Webber and Williams' and even Berlin's work then several of the guys drafted from long ago. I know that many here refuse to allow anything close to modern tastes intrude here, but the fact of the matter is that a composition of music can't live without enough people wanting to hear it.
Click to expand...
I like both Andrew Lloyd Webber and John Williams. I have seen Cats about 5 times. Great. However, the problem is that they are so new, we have no idea if they will stand the test of time. I venture to say if you look at the list of greatest film composers, John Williams may well head the list, but most of the others have fallen into anonymity. Fifteen years from now, the same may happen to John Williams. If you look at those who wrote musicals which were wildly popular 50 years ago--smash hits on Broadway, made into films--they have disappeared. Fame is a fickle thing, and the fact that some have survived for 300 years is a testament to their genius and talent.
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Agreed, but then we by definition exclude anyone in the last, what 50-100-150 years from being drafted in this thing. That isn't right.As for Broadway 50 years ago, I'm not sure I agree with you. The titans there are still the titans for the most part.
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Well, do you know, offhand, who scored Gone with the Wind? Casablanca? King Kong? (1933)? The Treasure of Sierra Madre? The Jazz Singer? The Caine Mutiny? The Searchers?All famous movies, but we don't remember which composers scored them.
 
larry_boy_44 said:
you are aware that your list is moving forward in time with technological advances regarding saving someone's image...
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Yes, I am aware of that, and don't see it as a problem. IMHO, Celebrity is absolutely an artifact of modern times.
larry_boy_44 said:
the celebrity category shouldn't be about who's famous since the picture and/or movie was invented...
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You're right -- it shouldn't be about "famous" at all. "Visually recognized" is the criteria.
that category sucks and has no place in this draft...
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Too late now -- the category is already in place.
 
Doug B said:
To me, celebrity is not merely "being known". It's being visually recognized.Think of it this way: King Tut is known, but he was never visually recognized anywhere outside of Egypt. What's visually recognized is his golden death mask.Mary? Never visually recognized widely while alive ... iconic interpretations of her image in art are, on the other hand, visually recognized.Elizabeth I to me is iffy, but more on the right track, as at least she was the subject of several famous portraits in her lifetime.Pushing forward in time, Ben Franklin is getting still closer -- though he was essentially a two-continent guy in his lifetime, he was well known enough to have toys and trinkets made in his likeness in Europe.Advancing in time still further, Charlie Chaplin is one of your earliest celebrities with global visual recognition. Chaplin is to capital-C Celebrity what Cro-Magnon Man is to modern humans.
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I don't agree with this at all. Name recognition should matter much more than visual recognition. I guarantee you that more people in this country know who King Tut is than know who Charlie Chaplin is.
 
rodg12 said:
I don't agree with this at all. Name recognition should matter much more than visual recognition. I guarantee you that more people in this country know who King Tut is than know who Charlie Chaplin is.
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Guarantee? At very best, it would be a wash IMHO. Chaplin is still iconic to this day.Tut's death mask is iconic as well. But consider that the death mask is an artifact, and not a person.

As for name recognition vs. visual recognition ... consider that if it were on name recognition, the best "Celebrities" are your religious icons. It's pretty clear to me that when you break out Celebrity as a stand-alone category, you are not meaning to poach picks away from categories such as Religious Figure, et al.

 
Here is the full write-up on Torquemada:

Tomás de Torquemada (1420 – September 16, 1498) was a fifteenth century Spanish Dominican, first Inquisitor General of Spain, and confessor to Isabella I of Castile. He was famously described by the Spanish chronicler Sebastián de Olmedo as "The hammer of heretics, the light of Spain, the saviour of his country, the honour of his order". He is known for his zealous campaign against the crypto-Jews and crypto-Muslims of Spain. He was one of the chief supporters of the Alhambra Decree, which expelled the Jews from Spain in 1492. The number of autos-de-fé during Torquemada's tenure as Inquisitor General have been hotly debated over the years, but the number is now generally put at about 2,200; with roughly half of these being proxy burnings of straw figures.

Selected Sections from Torquemada and the Spanish Inquisition

The Water Cure

The accused woman lay naked on an escalera, a ladder tipped so that her head was lower than her feet. The torturer had stretched her out to her full length and bound her tightly. Iron prongs held her jaws open. Her nostrils were stopped, allowing breathing only through her mouth. She struggled, but her bounds permitted little movement, and days of relentless questioning had left her exhausted. The torturer draped a piece of linen loosely over her open mouth. Jugs of water lined a nearby wall.

Three other men stood over the woman in the torture chamber.

A doctor observed her reactions and assessed her general condition. The mandates of the 15th Century Spanish Inquisition required the presence of a physician to monitor the health of the accused. The purpose of torture would be nullified if the accused was physically unable to hear and understand the proceedings. A confession, if it came, had to be a pure act, not the half-conscious ramblings of a mortally wounded sinner.

A clerk sat at a crude wooden table, poised to write down the particulars of the session.

The man in charge of the proceedings, the inquisitor, ignored the woman's panicked squeals and read through the charges levied against her. Witnesses had previously testified that on several successive Saturdays, smoke did not emerge from the woman's chimney, a strong indication that she was secretly a practicing Jew. Judaism forbids manual labor on the Sabbath, and starting a fire was considered manual labor. During questioning the woman had insisted that although she was born a Jew, she was now a converse, a convert to Catholicism. But the telltale signs, which were outlined by the Grand Inquisitor himself, Tomas de Torquemada, indicated that she was in fact a heretic, a practicing Jew pretending to be a Catholic and secretly subverting the Catholic faith.

When the inquisitor finished reviewing the charges, he looked to the doctor who gave him a nod of assent. The inquisitor then pointed to the jugs of water and told the torturer to be ready. The torturer lifted one of the sloshing jugs; each contained one liter of water. The woman's eyes widened in panic. She knew what was coming, and she tried to scream.

The first level of torture employed by the Spanish Inquisition was the "water cure." Water was poured into the accused's open mouth. The linen cloth was washed into the opening of the throat, preventing the accused from spitting the water back out. The overwhelming sensation of drowning forced the accused to swallow the water. The rules of torture as written by Torquemada, a man whom historians have compared to Hitler, stipulated that no more than eight liters of water could be used in a single session.

The torturer held the earthen jug in his arms, ready to follow the inquisitor's orders. The woman cried and struggled for breath, anticipating the worst.

The inquisitor stepped forward and spoke. "We shall begin."
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At the trial the accused was not assumed innocent until proven guilty. Torquemada felt that if sufficient evidence had already been presented proving the guilt of the accused, torture could be employed as a legitimate tool for getting to the truth.

The water cure, as previously described, was usually the first level of torture. If this did not coax a confession, the rack might be used next. The accused would be laid face up on a table and bound with ropes at the wrists and ankles, which would be pulled in increments to produce terrible pain.

If the rack proved to be ineffective, the accused was then tied with ropes by the wrists and led up to a scaffold. The inquisitor would then demand that the accused confess. If the response was not satisfactory, the inquisitor instructed the torturer to shove the accused off the scaffold. The ropes stopped the accused abruptly before his or her feet touched the ground, wrenching the person's joints and producing excruciating pain. This was repeated as deemed necessary under the watchful eye of a physician who checked the accused after each drop to make sure the person did not perish. According to the rules set down by Torquemada, torture was never to result in death.

If after several rounds of torture, the accused still did not confess, the judges inevitably declared the person guilty of heresy. The penalty was death, and the execution took place at a special public event.
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Predecessor to Hitler?

Apologists for Torquemada stop short of ranking him with the 20th Century madmen who used genocide to achieve their aberrant goals. Some scholars argue that Torquemada, unlike Hitler, Stalin, or Pol Pot, was motivated by genuine religious fervor and that he was a humble servant of the Lord who did not seek power for itself. Some also feel that his views and actions are consistent with the pre-Enlightenment age and so he must be judged differently.

But Torquemada's persecution of the Jews in Spain bears a remarkable similarity to Hitler's persecution of the Jews in Europe before and during World War II. Just as Hitler promulgated the Aryan race as superior, Torquemada believed in the superiority of individuals with "pure blood." Both Torquemada and Hitler ordered all Jews to wear identifying markers on their outer clothing. Historian John Edward Longhurst states that Torquemada sponsored "book-burning festivals" in which "Hebrew Bibles" as well as "Arabic books" were destroyed to stem the spread of what he considered heresy. Tales of evil Jews who killed innocent Christian children spread during both the Spanish Inquisition and the Third Reich, although there was no evidence that these kinds of murders ever happened. Profiteering through usury has been cited through the ages as a major crime committed by Jews, even though the practice of making loans and charging interests has benefited economies, including predominantly Christian economies.

In Torquemada's case, money may have indeed been the root of all evil because it seems clear that the Grand Inquisitor, the Spanish sovereigns, and the Pope were all eager to get their hands on Jewish assets in whatever way they could. Torquemada, along with Ferdinand and Isabella, reconciled the blatant seizure of Jewish property as necessary to finance their holy wars against all heathens. In their minds it was permissible to steal from heretics in order to fight heresy. In this sense, Torquemada's agenda was as cold-blooded as any of the dictators who followed him. Simon Whitechapel writes that although Torquemada's death count did not approach that of later mass murderers, "Qualitatively Torquemada stands shoulder-to-shoulder with Hitler and Stalin."

Torquemada managed to amass a personal fortune during the Inquisition, which he used to expand the monastery of the Holy Cross in Seville and build the St. Thomas Aquinas monastery in Avila. At the height of his power he traveled with a detail of 250 armed familiars. Toward the end of his life, he grew paranoid and suspicious, constantly in fear of assassins. He was known to place a "unicorn's horn" next to his plate when he dined to ward off the effects of possible poisons placed in his food. Like all other public figures who abuse power, Torquemada was apparently blind to the inconsistencies of his own life.

Torquemada died of natural causes at the age of 78 in 1498, but the Spanish Inquisition continued for another 336 years until it was finally abolished in 1834. According to Beth Randall, the apparatus set in motion by Torquemada was ultimately responsible for the murders of 30,000 Jews.
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