Hoos First
Footballguy
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Adam Laroche traded (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Hoos First
- Start date
=Smackdown=
Footballguy
=Smackdown=
Footballguy
Yeiper Castillo and another player for Laroche
T
The Ghost of Common
Guest
Argenis Diaz and Hunter Strickland for LAroche.
monessen
Footballguy
It's time that Selig showed some guts and take action against the Pirates for salary-dumping. At the least, fans who purchased season tickets should request a refund.
This is beyond ridiculous. Adam LaRoche is a power-hitting first baseman and the best the team can acquire in a trade are a couple of lightweight minor leaguers? LaRoche will light up stadiums in the AL East with homers. He's JD Drew without the injuries.
How is it that Milwaukee, a team similar in market size to Pittsburgh, can talk about acquiring top pitchers to help them win the NL Central, but the Pirates' track record is to divest themselves of as much major league talent as possible? They have already shipped off Nyler Morgan and Nate McLouth this season after giving away Jason Bay last year.
PNC Park is too beautiful for fans to storm and burn down, but it is absolutely unjust that Selig doesn't ask the Nutting family to open its financial records to the media so as to reveal how much money is being put into the organization for player development. But again, should they develop a star player, they'd just trade him off for zip.
A disgrace.
This is beyond ridiculous. Adam LaRoche is a power-hitting first baseman and the best the team can acquire in a trade are a couple of lightweight minor leaguers? LaRoche will light up stadiums in the AL East with homers. He's JD Drew without the injuries.
How is it that Milwaukee, a team similar in market size to Pittsburgh, can talk about acquiring top pitchers to help them win the NL Central, but the Pirates' track record is to divest themselves of as much major league talent as possible? They have already shipped off Nyler Morgan and Nate McLouth this season after giving away Jason Bay last year.
PNC Park is too beautiful for fans to storm and burn down, but it is absolutely unjust that Selig doesn't ask the Nutting family to open its financial records to the media so as to reveal how much money is being put into the organization for player development. But again, should they develop a star player, they'd just trade him off for zip.
A disgrace.
whoknew
Footballguy
We're talking about Adam LaRoche, right? He of the .770 OPS? And 12 HRs?
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fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Any info on these guys? Are they close to being major league ready? Are they worth anything for the future?
I
ianfitzy
Guest
Rotoworld says that Diaz is a young SS with a good glove but no real hitting potential and Strickland is an average arm in Single A. Neither are top prospects or expected to be real valuable in the majors.
JaxBill
Footballguy
So does Diaz get promoted to the parent club anyway when they dump Jack Wilson?How jealous is Laroche's brother Andy?
I
ianfitzy
Guest
Maybe but I don't think so... Diaz can field but he was hitting .250 ish AA. Not really a bat you want in your lineup.
dparker713
Footballguy
LaRoche kinda blows. He's clugging up a spot for Pearce and they hope Pedro Alverez soon. Considering what they got back, it seems like they wanted a good defensive SS to be able to plug in when they ship out Jack Wilson. Now, Im sure some of these trades they've made wont work out, but so far Huntington has invested in the draft and international signings - the way Milwaukee developed a winner. And dont look now, but despite all the trading off of major league parts they've got a better record than last year.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Statorama
Footballguy
I actually kind of like what the Pirates are doing here. They opened up a spot for Jones in the infield, which opens up a slot in the OF for Milledge. They're going to let the kids play, which is a refreshing change from the days they destroyed the development of youngsters like JJ Davis.
I have no idea what the homers were looking for in return for LaRoche. Bucholz? Bowden? In your dreams. Those are the kinds of players they won't trade for Halladay.
If LaRoche were a class A free agent, then you could make the argument that they should get similar talent in return. But as a sandwich class B, he's not worth as much.
Diaz has the ability to be an Erick Aybar-ish type, which isn't all bad. I haven't seen the pitcher, and don't really know much about him.
With a few breaks, this team could contend for the division title next year.
I have no idea what the homers were looking for in return for LaRoche. Bucholz? Bowden? In your dreams. Those are the kinds of players they won't trade for Halladay.
If LaRoche were a class A free agent, then you could make the argument that they should get similar talent in return. But as a sandwich class B, he's not worth as much.
Diaz has the ability to be an Erick Aybar-ish type, which isn't all bad. I haven't seen the pitcher, and don't really know much about him.
With a few breaks, this team could contend for the division title next year.
NEWSFLASH: Adam laRoche sucks (good move for some depth by BOS)
Statorama
Footballguy
Give the Pirates a little room here. Like the Brewers did with setting the middle of their lineup with Braun/Fielder, the Bucs drafted their first key piece in Alvarez. For the first time in a long time, the Pirate front office looks like it's making the right moves.
monessen
Footballguy
Yes, the same number of homers as David Ortiz. Ever hear of him? And Jason Bay wasn't hitting ahead of LaRoche anymore at Pittsburgh. He was sent to, oh, Boston, of course, and for . . . ? Think hard. Another giveaway.Who did LaRoche have protecting him in the Pirates lineup? His brother? Ding, correct! No Pedroia or Youkilis or Lowell or Varitek in there, unfortunately.The Red Sox got the guy they needed to help them in places like Yankee Stadium (not that they needed much help there) with the short right field. LaRoche was productive in the past and will be again. I'm sure the Red Sox had no real plans for the two "prospects" they gave up. By the way, the Pirates lead the majors already in light-hitting shortstops.
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monessen
Footballguy
Give them room? They've had enough room for several mansions. Jason Schmidt for Ryan Vogelsong? Aramis Ramirez and Kenny Lofton for Bobby Hill? Jason Kendall for ? Bay for Karstens and Ohlenhorf? McLouth for Charlie Morton? Nyler Morgan for the eternal disappointment Lastings Milledge? The only decent deal they made was getting LaRoche for Mike Gonzalez. I don't think the Braves would trade Gonzalez for the 2 players the Pirates received for LaRoche.
Copeman
Footballguy
Half of those moves you listed were done by the old regime. The later ones you listed are way too early to tell. Others, they freed up cap room and positions for their younger players. As a lifelong Bucco fan, I finally like what they are doing. I will give them a couple more years to see how it pans out. At least they are doing something different than the front offices did in years past. I have waited a long time to again see a winner in the Buccos, I can certainly wait a couple more years. And it will be more exciting watching the young guys develop. And guess what? They are winning just as much now with these guys as they did when they had the guys they "gave away". And the minor league system actually is starting to look decent.
monessen
Footballguy
They've had 17 years to allow things to pan out. Seventeen consecutive losing seasons. What I do understand is the point that averaging about 74 wins a year is the norm, so it doesn't matter what players are jettisoned, I suppose. Bottom line is that the Pirates, irrespective of the regime and in spite of the current one (the McLouth deal created a player revolt with Wilson and LaRoche the most vocal), will not up their payroll and claim to be using Tampa and Minnesota as models for what they are attempting. The key difference, however, is that those teams have actual talent.
Copeman
Footballguy
When discussing salaries of the players and why the Buccos never pay, many people overlook a few very important facts. Lets start by stating the Pirates haven't had many bonafide "stars" in the past how many years. And the one's they thought were close, they did in fact pay. What brought them to the lower 8th in the league in salary cap was their lack of good players. They had too many bad players, who in turn didn't make much. And they had many many more bad players than good. But the decent-good players were paid as such. See Kendall-Wilson-LaRoche-Bay, etc.. Yes, they (old regime) made many bone headed moves (Aramis Ramirez), whcih were definitly considered salary dumps. No argument here on that. Again...old regime.ETA: Another big reason about the misconception of the Pirates not paying is the fact that many FA's do not even want to play in Pittsburgh. This is well known.
But I am definitly willing to give these new guys a chance. Giving up on McClouth? Big deal. See who they inserted into the lineup in place of him? Let me know how good he has done so far and what all the scouts (even from other teams) say about him. McClotuh isn't exactly tearing up the league for Atlanta anyways. He was a marginal player, and one of the better players on the Pirates. That alone should tell you something.
The Pirates are building the system back up, and it will take time. But this time, they are doing it the right way. And yet still......they are winning as much as in the past. Look for alot more wins in the near future.
I used to be pessimistic like you about them, even up until a few months ago, but these guys decided change was needed, and they are going all out. Not just applying band aids, like the old regimes did. They are tearing it down and building it back up, the way they should.
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Spartans Rule
Footballguy
You mean the guy with the .726 OPS who has been widely regarded as one of the biggest disappointments in baseball this season? That's select company you're putting LaRoche in there.
Yeah, clearly teams have been pitching around the monster that is LaRoche, as evidenced by his stellar .329 OBP.
"Eternal disappointment"? Jesus, he's only 24. Matt Wieters is 23 and has had less MLB success than Milledge - would you classify him as an eternal disappointment yet, or is he still a year away from that?Not sure why your last-place team trading away mediocre veterans they weren't going to keep long-term anyway is worth having an aneurysm over.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
The horrendous trade of Aramis Ramirez, the non-drafting of Matt Wieters (and other poor 1st round picks), and the trade for Matt Morris, each set the Pirates timelines back significantly. The new regime is making the right moves. Adam LaRoche has not come remotley close to being the middle of the order bat he was traded for. The fact that they got ANYTHING for him is a miracle, especially considering the Pirates didnt have to eat any of the contract. Most were expecting that he could not be traded due to a lack of takers. This move allows the Pirates to give Steve Pearce some real time to check him out for one final evaluation before giving up on him. Garrett Jones will eventually move to first. Millage will be brought up (he has been amazing in AAA, and even asked to play A ball for a few games during the AAA all-star break so that he could continue to get games in) and he will play LF with Moss in RF. I anticipate Sanchez and/or Wilson's depature next and those also will be the right decisions. Young will play 2B and get some regular at-bats. Ford or Bixler will get called up for short term play, but the SS they got in this deal should be the defensive guy they were looking for. Not like Wilson's bat at SS has been anything special over 9 years.
whoknew
Footballguy
Also - Nyjer Morgan is 29 years old and has a .719 OPS (or 96 OPS+, if you prefer). And he's played 172 ML games as a 29 year old.Justin Upton he ain't.
dparker713
Footballguy
If you cant see McCutchen's talent, I cant help you. The problem with Milledge has never been talent. If Young can play close to league average defense, he's a talent upgrade at 2B. No, they don't have anyone on the level of Longoria and they also lack a front end starter, but the replacements they've called up have played just as well or better. There is no dominant team in the division, so given the direction they're headed I could see them competing for the playoffs as early as next year, though 2011 is more likely.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Great posting except the last sentence. Do you really believe this team can compete next year?
Balco
Footballguy
Not to get back on the McLouth trade, but . . . the fact that McCutcheon is playing so well should have no bearing on the assessment of the McClouth trade. McLouth could have slid over to one of the corner outfield position. He was young, good fielder, good hitter, and he was cheap. Definitely could have been a part of the core in the rebuilding efforts.As for the Laroche trade, as someone else mentioned, he is a free agent after the year, and isn't exactly tearing the cover off the ball. They got someone who they believe will replace Jack Wilson at SS (and I am of the belief that defense should always come first at shortstop. If he hits well it's a bonus, and only that. Look at what Jason bartlett's D did for the Devil Rays last year), and a young pitcher who is only 21, and could factor in the pen in 2 to 3 years. And Pirates management should be thanking their lucky stars Sanchez and Wilson rejected their offers. What was Pirates management thinking with that? You trade McLouth, and people say it is to get younger, yet you want to extend Sanchez and Wilson? If I were Pirates fans, I would be very worried about that.
Balco
Footballguy
Yeah, Morgan isn't a huge loss in the rebuilding efforts.
Balco
Footballguy
Didn't know much about Jones until his recent homer binge. I see he is 28. Why such a long wait to get to the bigs? Pirate homers?
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Those offers were shtick to keep the fans from getting mad about letting their other "good" players go.
So why would Sanchez take 10 mill for 2 years coming if there is a chance he could get 8.4 for 600 PAs? Pirates were never sincere about keeping either, and they probably shouldn't be. Replacement level players can be found for a lot less and I'm so happy the Tigers didn't trade for Wilson (pirates were asking for a boatload). Anyway they are better off just going young and letting the guys develop together in the Rays mode although they don't have the same calibar prospects. Sanchez and Wilson are good players but they aren't guys you'd pay to see play, McCutchen and Alvarez are. the McClouth deal? Hard to sell that one to me but whatever. Bad franchises do dumb things, I know how these things work out (Tigers 1993-2003).
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Balco
Footballguy
Well, that makes a lot more sense then. If you are a team that needs to rebuild, then completely rebuild for a couple of years. If you are going to sign a vet, sign a platoon guy for 1 year so as not to impede a young players growth. Let the young guys play, identify the keepers, and then after a year or 2 begin to sign some free agents.It's pretty much what the Marlins do, and they are assembling a great pitching staff. The A's as well, with their pitching, letting Anderson and Cahill get take their lumps. very interested to see what beane gets for Holliday. The A's really need some hitting, as well as defense.
Balco
Footballguy
McCutcheon has a sweet swing. doesn't look very big, but the ball jumps off his bat. Alvarez will be a middle of the order guy, and McCutcheon can bat there if they really needed him too. If McClouth were still there, a 1-2-3 of McCutcheon, McLouth, and Alvarez would be pretty darn good.I'm actually getting excited for the Buccos......
monessen
Footballguy
LaRoche has traditionally been a second-half hitter. Moreover, in the past 3 seasons, he averaged 26 HR, 88 RBI, a BA of .275, an OBP of .346 and a SLG % of .502. I would characterize those as fine numbers on a last-place team. I believe they should have traded him in the effort to improve their team, not simply dump his salary and because he would be a free agent. The Cardinals received Lugo from the Sox for Chris Duncan. Lugo is an upgrade over the players the Pirates received. I imagine the A's will get plenty in return for Matt Holliday and he wasn't exactly tearing it up in Oakland.
For those who disparage McLouth, check his numbers since he joined the Braves and became a fixture as leadoff man.
Milledge, despite his youth and promise, has already had 2 MLB teams sour on him. Why? If Morgan is so limited, why would the Nationals prefer him to Milledge?
I hear of various regimes and mistakes made, but the constants have been McClatchy and the Nutting family as owners. McClatchy is now gone, but the melody of a tiny payroll lingers. The pattern is the same, irrespective of who the GM may be.
No, I'm sorry. I don't share the optimism. I've followed the Pirates since 1963 and it doesn't take much insight to recognize that the same old jive of becoming competitive is just that----quick shots of false hope.
As to the Red Sox fans, congrats! You got a great replacement for Manny in Bay, courtesy of the Bucs and their current regime. Another present arrived, gift-wrapped from Pgh, today.
For those who disparage McLouth, check his numbers since he joined the Braves and became a fixture as leadoff man.
Milledge, despite his youth and promise, has already had 2 MLB teams sour on him. Why? If Morgan is so limited, why would the Nationals prefer him to Milledge?
I hear of various regimes and mistakes made, but the constants have been McClatchy and the Nutting family as owners. McClatchy is now gone, but the melody of a tiny payroll lingers. The pattern is the same, irrespective of who the GM may be.
No, I'm sorry. I don't share the optimism. I've followed the Pirates since 1963 and it doesn't take much insight to recognize that the same old jive of becoming competitive is just that----quick shots of false hope.
As to the Red Sox fans, congrats! You got a great replacement for Manny in Bay, courtesy of the Bucs and their current regime. Another present arrived, gift-wrapped from Pgh, today.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
I understand your frustration and I get most of this but you are giving LaRoche way too much credit. Guy has had OPS+ seasons of 100, 130, 108, 123 and this year with the Pirates he was 108. Among MLB starting 1Bman that ranked him 23rd, 9th, 17th, 15th, and 19th this year. Jorge Cantu and Billy Butler have better OPS numbers than LaRoche does this year and I'd hope to get 25 HRs our of my starting 1Bman. He's not Matt Holliday, he's more like Doug Mientkiewicz.He'll be a good fill player for Boston, they certainly can use a healthy guy to play 1B which allows them to move folks around and give them the best line-up. His post all-star OPS is encouraging (.952 over the past three years) but he's been horrendous on the road this year and 25 HRs and an OPS+ of 115 to 120 from a starting 1Bman aren't great. A change of scenery will probably do him well but Pittsburgh didn't get fleeced here. He's a very replaceable player.
dparker713
Footballguy
Keeping players around because they post fine numbers on a last place team is exactly how you stay a last place team. And Lugo is a backup SS now, no more. The Sox are essentially paying his entire salary, otherwise they couldnt have moved him. He's not a player you want starting for your team now or in the future. And how can you compare Holliday to LaRoche? Holliday was ROY, a 3 time All-Star and had a second place MVP finish. He's not done well away from Coors this year, but he's a hell of alot better player than LaRoche. McLouth had a .256/.349/.470 line with 9 HR 27R 34RBI in 168 AB as a Pirate, which was a mild disappointment based upn last year. He has a .258/.331/.439 line with 5 HR 27R 16RBI in 155 AB. Teams soured on Milledge because his attitude has sucked. The talent has been there. And the Nationals needed Morgan because despite them having 18 OFers, they didnt have a single person capable of playing CF, especially in their fairly spacious home park. Morgan will be a good defensive player for them and should hit well enough to stay in the lineup, but Milledge still has a chance to be an impact player.
That is an unbelievably ridiculous statement.
dparker713
Footballguy
Young has posted .761 OPS in 345 PA in his major league career - precisely Sanchez's career OPS. And Young has a career .876 OPS in the minors, indicating he could develop into a good hitter in the majors. Defensively, Sanchez has generally posted a UZR around 0.0. This year his UZR is up to 3.5, but the sample sizes are still a bit small for this season's numbers to be meaningful.
Now, there are serious questions about Young's ability to play second base around league average, but replacing an average fielder and hitter with a slightly below average fielder and an above average bat is certainly a talent upgrade.
Statorama
Footballguy
Granted, they're extreme darkhorses, but if the pitching continues to mature they could easily contend in one of the worst divisions in baseball....and for those that think this is just the same old, same old, how quickly we forget the Derrek Bell "Operation Shutdown" years.For the first time in what seems like forever, the Pirate front office actually looks like it has a plan. I'm kind of excited for their fans (LOVE that park btw)
eagles2007
Footballguy
i've stopped rolling on the floor long enough to type a response to this: are you freaking kidding me? he might not be top 5 in the AL East. as for some of the earlier comments:
the cardinals got lugo becasue they were willing to take on his salary, which Theo Epstein has said was a big mistake.
the pirates are headed in the right direction. have they taken a major step yet? no. but they had no SS in the system who they thought could take wilson's place, which is why they offered him an extension. if this guy allows them to trade wilson, then it was a good move.
mclouth? ive said before, i think he's a nice piece on a good team. on the pirates, he looks like he's a star. he's 29 i think. mccucheon has been great. now we'll have an OF of milledge, mccutcheon and jones. that looks pretty good. steve pearce is coming up to play 1B full-time. not jones.
Balco
Footballguy
McLouth is 27, and had an extremely affordable salary through 2011. I don't think anybody said he is a star, what he is is a solid fielder (although his gold glove was a joke), and a very good hitter. He is a good player on any team.
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
He was in the Twins system and stuck behind people. Pirates just signed him as a minor league free agent this season
Darth Cheney
Footballguy
Nice little reaction move by Boston. He'll do about as well as The Mayor did.
shut it down
Footballguy
Fish are jumping today.
From Peter Gammons
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eagles2007
Footballguy
NO, HE ISN'T.
Balco
Footballguy
Yes he is.
