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Who is better RIGHT NOW, Rodgers or Favre? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter ookook
- Start date
BeaverCleaver
Footballguy
GB since they got rid of Favre= 10-13
Favre away from GB= 16-8
Oh...and the Packers were 13-3 with Favre in 2007.
Favre away from GB= 16-8
Oh...and the Packers were 13-3 with Favre in 2007.
ScottyFargo
Footballguy
Pretty much says it all. Also, you would have thought Rodgers might have thrown for over 300 yards given that he threw the ball 41 times, but I guess that's not how it works.
fatness
Footballguy
To be honest with you, if their situations were exactly reversed today (yards, TDs, sacks, pressure, won/lost), you'd likely say Favre was better but that his offensive line, defense, and/or receivers let him down.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Pretty much.Even after today..>Im still taking Rodgers any day of the week.Favre played well, no doubt....but Im happy with who GB has as their QB right now.
ScottyFargo
Footballguy
Not me man. I said I wanted Favre from '07, and it looks like we got the Favre "All Star" instead. 4 TDs against the Pack? I'll take that every time, thank you.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
Umm. Evidence suggests you're right. It isn't close. Rodgers is nowhere near as good as Favre.Thanks for playing.
Well, I am glad the Packers have Rodgers because I am more certain he wil be there in a couple years and now I am forced to admit we must officially be in some sort of "rebuilding mode".
But I am not convinced Rodgers gave the Packers a better chance of winning than Favre this season.
Everyone thinks age is bad, but sometimes age equals experience and football knowledge. As long as the HC and OC can keep Favre's decision making under reign, he is darn good.
In 2007, the Packers started the season with no running game and Favre just zipped it in and threw the ball on plays where every DB in the house knew he was going to. He carried them like few QBs could.
And coming into the season everyone wrote that off. But he can flat out play.
That does not mean that deciding to go with Rodgers was a bad decision, as for the last 2 seasons the rest of the team was so bad it wouldn't much matter. And Rodgers will be here for years.
But I do not think that Rodgers has yet earned a place among the elite QBs in the league...he just put up some good fantasy stats for a season.
But I am not convinced Rodgers gave the Packers a better chance of winning than Favre this season.
Everyone thinks age is bad, but sometimes age equals experience and football knowledge. As long as the HC and OC can keep Favre's decision making under reign, he is darn good.
In 2007, the Packers started the season with no running game and Favre just zipped it in and threw the ball on plays where every DB in the house knew he was going to. He carried them like few QBs could.
And coming into the season everyone wrote that off. But he can flat out play.
That does not mean that deciding to go with Rodgers was a bad decision, as for the last 2 seasons the rest of the team was so bad it wouldn't much matter. And Rodgers will be here for years.
But I do not think that Rodgers has yet earned a place among the elite QBs in the league...he just put up some good fantasy stats for a season.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
Wow...was shocked to see this 70% in favor of Rodgers. Really shows you how much Favre hate there is out there, and how much people didn't understand the significant of his injury last year on his fall off.
Red Forman
Footballguy
Favre
Aaron Rodgers has a bright future & things could be worse in the post-Favre era, but I would definitely take Favre over Rodgers right now. The plays that Favre made to defeat the 49ers and also to take the lead over the Ravens at the end - I just don't see Rodgers making those plays. Favre is more experienced, has better pocket awareness & the fact that he has been able to establish a rapport with Sidney Rice in particular & Percy Harvin with basically 4 weeks of training camp shows how good he is at knowing the strengths of his teammates.
⚡DEADHEAD⚡
Footballguy
You shouldn't be. Rodgers has had numerous opportunities to show he has "it." He doesn't. Sure, some of it is not his fault but I'm tired of seeing the Pack get down 14 or 21 points, manage some sort of comeback and lose in the end. Happens too often. Killer instinct. It isn't there. I hope the Favre saga doesn't curse the Pack for years to come.
⚡DEADHEAD⚡
Footballguy
Exactly. Favre is Peyton; Rodgers is Eli.
you have got to be kidding .... that comparison is ridiculous
What Woodrow said.
I agree 100% ... Rodgers, though, is farther along then SO MANY other qbs in only their second season starting. The guy is going to end up with numbers comparable to Carson Palmer season 2 ... who was pretty damn amazing before his knee injury
Or it shows you how much you don't understand the difference between the supporting casts. Either way.
Compare these 2 QB lines for comp%, TD:INT, and YPA:QB1: 67% 28:15 7.3QB2: 64% 28:13 7.51 of them is Favre/2007 and the other is Rodgers/2008. I don't know what kind of math you use to explain how a team's W-L record would be drastically affected by the difference in those QB lines, let alone "say it all."
dollarbill13
Footballguy
Both guys are excellent at throwing the ball... The difference between their performances boils down to getting rid of the ball. In 2007, Favre took 15 sacks for 93 yards. In 2008, Rodgers took 34 sacks for 231 yards. It's probably some combination of the inexperience of Rodgers and the supporting cast, but just about any Packer fan will tell you that Rodgers is holding onto the ball way too long right now. The whole offense in 2007 was based on Favre getting rid of the ball quickly on slants, etc. Not really sure why the Packers aren't running that style offense anymore, especially given their troubles with the O-Line.
Kitrick Taylor
Footballguy
What Minnesota fans are experiencing now is the good Brett Favre. The same one that led the 2007 Packers to the NFC title game. The same one that led the 2008 Jets to a 8-3 record. This Brett Favre is admittedly playing better than Aaron Rodgers right now. Its not that he has a better arm, or anything really physical over Rodgers. He just has a ton of experience. He's seen it all, and knows how to deal with every blitz. Add in a solid o line and ADP, and its a great situation for Favre.What I am 100% confident in saying is that they will get the opportunity to experience the bad Brett Favre too. The same one that threw away the Divisional playoff game in 2003 to the Eagles. The same one that threw away the NFC title game to the Giants, and the same one that led the Jets astray down the stretch last year.
I respect the man's ability to play the game. He can be brilliant. This downward spiral has happened in each of the last 5 years however. Favre is now 40, and prepared less for this season than any of the others. Not seeing this coming is just being blind to what's in front of you.
In the first 11 games of the 2004 through 2008 seasons (55 games total), Favre completed 64.8 percent of his passes with 97 touchdown throws, 61 interceptions and an 89.1 passer rating. In the last five games of those seasons plus three playoff contests (28 total), he completed only 57.9 percent of his passes with 27 touchdowns, 46 interceptions and a meager passer rating of 66.3.
Enjoy it while you can.
The Westin
Footballguy
Favre definately has the edge in pocket presence. Rodgers just isn't there yet. It's one of those things that comes with time, and Rodgers surely will get better but that's his big flaw right now. He waits too long for receivers to get open. I'm surprised that with his poor offensive line he hasn't become accustomed to dumping the ball off quicker. Some of it has to do with play calling, some of it falls on Aaron. There were a couple sacks last night that could have been avoided by him dumping it off or throwing it away.
I think maybe he is just trying a little too hard to be the anti-Favre....as in trying very hard to not make mistakes, to the point where he plays too conservative at times and the offense stalls as a result. Favre on the other hand is the kind of guy who will boom or bust in these situations. He'd either win or lose the game single handedly. Rodgers played like crap in the first half, but Green Bay wasn't out of it yet because he didn't give the game away. It allowed Green Bay to get back into it....and almost pull out a come from behind win. With Favre at QB, he may have carried the team on his back and won it....but I think a blowout would've been more likely in that situation.
Favre has the perfect setup in Minnesota. He could be the factor that puts them over the top. At the same time, Minnesota is a much more complete team than Green Bay on offense, defense, and special teams. Rodgers cannot overcome that by himself, and Favre would not be able to either. I would rather have Rodgers right now, with that crap O-line and no running game he has managed to still do great this year. Favre has the best running back in the league, a great O-line, and decent receivers. Harvin is going to be dangerous for a long time. He also has a good defense to fall back on, something Green Bay lacks....despite their ranking being boosted by their wins over Detroit and Cleveland.
It's difficult to compare these two right now. They are playing in completely different situations. Favre was hit I think once or twice last night. Rodgers was sacked more times than that in the first quarter. He was hurried all night...I'm surprised he ever found a rythm. The Oline looked better in the second half, and we saw what Rodgers could do with just a little more time. Teams don't try to stop Favre, they try to stop Peterson and Brett is good enough to make them pay. People don't try to stop Grant, they don't have to. Grant is below average, the run blocking is below average, the pass blocking is below average....It's Aaron and the receivers and not much else.
I think maybe he is just trying a little too hard to be the anti-Favre....as in trying very hard to not make mistakes, to the point where he plays too conservative at times and the offense stalls as a result. Favre on the other hand is the kind of guy who will boom or bust in these situations. He'd either win or lose the game single handedly. Rodgers played like crap in the first half, but Green Bay wasn't out of it yet because he didn't give the game away. It allowed Green Bay to get back into it....and almost pull out a come from behind win. With Favre at QB, he may have carried the team on his back and won it....but I think a blowout would've been more likely in that situation.
Favre has the perfect setup in Minnesota. He could be the factor that puts them over the top. At the same time, Minnesota is a much more complete team than Green Bay on offense, defense, and special teams. Rodgers cannot overcome that by himself, and Favre would not be able to either. I would rather have Rodgers right now, with that crap O-line and no running game he has managed to still do great this year. Favre has the best running back in the league, a great O-line, and decent receivers. Harvin is going to be dangerous for a long time. He also has a good defense to fall back on, something Green Bay lacks....despite their ranking being boosted by their wins over Detroit and Cleveland.
It's difficult to compare these two right now. They are playing in completely different situations. Favre was hit I think once or twice last night. Rodgers was sacked more times than that in the first quarter. He was hurried all night...I'm surprised he ever found a rythm. The Oline looked better in the second half, and we saw what Rodgers could do with just a little more time. Teams don't try to stop Favre, they try to stop Peterson and Brett is good enough to make them pay. People don't try to stop Grant, they don't have to. Grant is below average, the run blocking is below average, the pass blocking is below average....It's Aaron and the receivers and not much else.
What a difference having the ability to handoff to ADP and his running threat that opens up the passing game and having a better OL. He actually has NFL quality starting wrs this year. Don't forget Minny really good defense. Aikman touched on his belief that Favre did not want to play for the Packers. I wonder if he has some inside knowledge? I know everyone has turned this into a Favre vs Rodgers, but Rodgers right now is the better qb. Right now Minny is a better team than GB. Favre has the superior supporting cast.
ScottyFargo
Footballguy
The last time Brett Favre was a Packer, they were 13-3. This is the same team that we've been told is the "youngest in the league." So now it sounds like you can take your supporting cast and blow smoke all over it for '07 and now you can be as critical as you like now that they've been revealed to suck. They sucked then too. And as far as being "100% confident," that doesn't have much sway with me because you and other Packer fans were "100% certain" that good ol' Bert Farve was gonna throw a bunch of Pick 6's to your superior cover corners and run those back in for TDs and cost the Vikes to be swept by the Pack this year, but that didn't happen. So what it looks like to me is sour grapes. Yeah, sour grapes. You obviously wish you had the old man back so he could be the one to take the blame when the Packers season falls short after he would have been forced to shoulder the whole team on his 40 year old shoulders, just like he did his whole career in Green Bay.What Minnesota fans are experiencing now is the good Brett Favre. The same one that led the 2007 Packers to the NFC title game. The same one that led the 2008 Jets to a 8-3 record. This Brett Favre is admittedly playing better than Aaron Rodgers right now. Its not that he has a better arm, or anything really physical over Rodgers. He just has a ton of experience. He's seen it all, and knows how to deal with every blitz. Add in a solid o line and ADP, and its a great situation for Favre.
What I am 100% confident in saying is that they will get the opportunity to experience the bad Brett Favre too. The same one that threw away the Divisional playoff game in 2003 to the Eagles. The same one that threw away the NFC title game to the Giants, and the same one that led the Jets astray down the stretch last year.
I respect the man's ability to play the game. He can be brilliant. This downward spiral has happened in each of the last 5 years however. Favre is now 40, and prepared less for this season than any of the others. Not seeing this coming is just being blind to what's in front of you.
In the first 11 games of the 2004 through 2008 seasons (55 games total), Favre completed 64.8 percent of his passes with 97 touchdown throws, 61 interceptions and an 89.1 passer rating. In the last five games of those seasons plus three playoff contests (28 total), he completed only 57.9 percent of his passes with 27 touchdowns, 46 interceptions and a meager passer rating of 66.3.
Enjoy it while you can.
Thank you, I've been enjoying it all season, but especially the last month where he swept the Pack, throwing SEVEN touchdowns and NO INTERCEPTIONS.
The Westin
Footballguy
Favre definately is a huge upgrade over what they had in Minny last year, and he has made it very difficult to defend against the Vikes. He could be the missing piece to take them all the way...But...The last time Brett Favre was a Packer, they were 13-3. This is the same team that we've been told is the "youngest in the league." So now it sounds like you can take your supporting cast and blow smoke all over it for '07 and now you can be as critical as you like now that they've been revealed to suck. They sucked then too. And as far as being "100% confident," that doesn't have much sway with me because you and other Packer fans were "100% certain" that good ol' Bert Farve was gonna throw a bunch of Pick 6's to your superior cover corners and run those back in for TDs and cost the Vikes to be swept by the Pack this year, but that didn't happen. So what it looks like to me is sour grapes. Yeah, sour grapes. You obviously wish you had the old man back so he could be the one to take the blame when the Packers season falls short after he would have been forced to shoulder the whole team on his 40 year old shoulders, just like he did his whole career in Green Bay.What Minnesota fans are experiencing now is the good Brett Favre. The same one that led the 2007 Packers to the NFC title game. The same one that led the 2008 Jets to a 8-3 record. This Brett Favre is admittedly playing better than Aaron Rodgers right now. Its not that he has a better arm, or anything really physical over Rodgers. He just has a ton of experience. He's seen it all, and knows how to deal with every blitz. Add in a solid o line and ADP, and its a great situation for Favre.
What I am 100% confident in saying is that they will get the opportunity to experience the bad Brett Favre too. The same one that threw away the Divisional playoff game in 2003 to the Eagles. The same one that threw away the NFC title game to the Giants, and the same one that led the Jets astray down the stretch last year.
I respect the man's ability to play the game. He can be brilliant. This downward spiral has happened in each of the last 5 years however. Favre is now 40, and prepared less for this season than any of the others. Not seeing this coming is just being blind to what's in front of you.
In the first 11 games of the 2004 through 2008 seasons (55 games total), Favre completed 64.8 percent of his passes with 97 touchdown throws, 61 interceptions and an 89.1 passer rating. In the last five games of those seasons plus three playoff contests (28 total), he completed only 57.9 percent of his passes with 27 touchdowns, 46 interceptions and a meager passer rating of 66.3.
Enjoy it while you can.
Thank you, I've been enjoying it all season, but especially the last month where he swept the Pack, throwing SEVEN touchdowns and NO INTERCEPTIONS.
He would be doing nothing on GB the last two years. The defense regressed greatly from '07 - '08. And the offensive line is not the same as it was two years ago. Tauscher and Clifton aren't the same players they were two years ago. Tausher just got back with the team and is backing up due to knee injuries, and Clifton when not out due to injury has been a disaster this year.
Favre is playing great on Minnesota right now...but if you think throwing him behind center on GB would miraculously turn that team back into the 13-3 team from two years back you are fooling yourself.
ScottyFargo
Footballguy
I won't argue that, but I also don't understand how the youngest team in the league can regress so much when the only significant turnover has been trading Favre away. In one year they went from 13-3 to 6-10. I think between some lucky breaks and Brett Favre magic, the team was never really as good as it looked.
The Westin
Footballguy
They were a good team that year. But like I said, there defense has been poor since then. Last year they were just horrible. This year they'e just ok. If you ask any Packer fan what the biggest problem with this team is, they'll tell you it's the Offensive Line. Something that was a strength when Favre was in GB. Their two tackles have been in the league 10+ years and age caught up with them. TT's plan to groom replacements didn't quite work out.They weren't as good as advertised in 07, weren't as bad as advertised in '08....and right now are about what people think they are....an average team
Are you more concerned about numbers or wins(FF or real life)?I think a better comparison is to Phillip Rivers. Both players had to wait 3 seasons until they got the starting gig. Much different than saying his second year starting. They both could be better mentally prepared and used to the NFL in their 4th seasons.
The Westin
Footballguy
I don't think he's talking about receivers. Yes QB's throw the ball to receivers...but there is a whole lot more that goes into play than just toss and catch.The threat of a runnning game, pass protection...both huge factors that are strengths of the Vikings and weaknesses to the packers.Weren't the Packers the best WR core in the preseason...now where is that thread
KnowledgeReignsSupreme
Footballguy
We need to get someone in here to translate.MisfitBlondes said:
My point is excuses. In the preseason, the Packers WR core was the best in the league, Jermichael Finley was going to bust out, Ryan Grant's holdout/hamstring limited him last year....watch what a full training camp will do, etc.His supporting cast could be much worse too.....but at some point....the reflection should be on Rodgers.Would you rather have Driver, Jennings, James Jones, Nelson, Grant, etc.Or Freeman, Bill Schroeder, and Dorsey Levens?I don't think he's talking about receivers. Yes QB's throw the ball to receivers...but there is a whole lot more that goes into play than just toss and catch.The threat of a runnning game, pass protection...both huge factors that are strengths of the Vikings and weaknesses to the packers.Weren't the Packers the best WR core in the preseason...now where is that thread
FUBAR
Footballguy
clearly they aren't, but give Green Bay Minnesota's line and Peterson and Rodgers becomes an all-pro overnight.Weren't the Packers the best WR core in the preseason...now where is that thread
ScottyFargo
Footballguy
Flipside: Give Minnesota Green Bay's whack excuse of a 3-4 hat pulls pro bowl players out of position and Rodgers doesn't get touched at all over two games. This isn't just about talented players, this is about a scheme that doesn't work, bad coaching, and bad decisions.clearly they aren't, but give Green Bay Minnesota's line and Peterson and Rodgers becomes an all-pro overnight.Weren't the Packers the best WR core in the preseason...now where is that thread
The reason the team is regressing isn't just because the players forgot how to play, is because the decisions made this offseason are not panning out.
FUBAR
Footballguy
Don't forget about Brooks, Chmura, then Ahman Green... IMHO the current cast for Green Bay is no better but not much worse than what Favre had in the late 90s. But, Favre was better then than Rodgers is now. Doesn't make Rodgers a bad QB by any stretch.My point is excuses. In the preseason, the Packers WR core was the best in the league, Jermichael Finley was going to bust out, Ryan Grant's holdout/hamstring limited him last year....watch what a full training camp will do, etc.His supporting cast could be much worse too.....but at some point....the reflection should be on Rodgers.Would you rather have Driver, Jennings, James Jones, Nelson, Grant, etc.Or Freeman, Bill Schroeder, and Dorsey Levens?I don't think he's talking about receivers. Yes QB's throw the ball to receivers...but there is a whole lot more that goes into play than just toss and catch.The threat of a runnning game, pass protection...both huge factors that are strengths of the Vikings and weaknesses to the packers.Weren't the Packers the best WR core in the preseason...now where is that thread
FUBAR
Footballguy
OKFlipside: Give Minnesota Green Bay's whack excuse of a 3-4 hat pulls pro bowl players out of position and Rodgers doesn't get touched at all over two games. This isn't just about talented players, this is about a scheme that doesn't work, bad coaching, and bad decisions.clearly they aren't, but give Green Bay Minnesota's line and Peterson and Rodgers becomes an all-pro overnight.Weren't the Packers the best WR core in the preseason...now where is that threadThe reason the team is regressing isn't just because the players forgot how to play, is because the decisions made this offseason are not panning out.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Favre is just playing so well though.Back like 2007 and years before that. Where was this Brett for his last 5 or so years in GB though?RIght now, he is playing damn good...then again, Rodgers is the #1 rated QB right now.C. Carter on Mike and Mike today was saying that if you flipped the two QBs...put Rodgers in Minny and Favre in GB...things would be interesting. He did not think GB would be any better off because of the Oline and thought Minny would be right about the same with Rodgers.Pretty interesting.
sho nuff
Footballguy
13-3 might not have been as good as it looked. But they were also pretty lucky that year as far as health. Did not miss much.Injuries were nto the only reason for last year's record...Id put it down about #5 on the list of things that lead to the bad record.
But the talent is there on that team.
sho nuff
Footballguy
If Freeman, Schroeder and Levens come with the Oline they had...give me that group.My point is excuses. In the preseason, the Packers WR core was the best in the league, Jermichael Finley was going to bust out, Ryan Grant's holdout/hamstring limited him last year....watch what a full training camp will do, etc.His supporting cast could be much worse too.....but at some point....the reflection should be on Rodgers.Would you rather have Driver, Jennings, James Jones, Nelson, Grant, etc.Or Freeman, Bill Schroeder, and Dorsey Levens?I don't think he's talking about receivers. Yes QB's throw the ball to receivers...but there is a whole lot more that goes into play than just toss and catch.The threat of a runnning game, pass protection...both huge factors that are strengths of the Vikings and weaknesses to the packers.Weren't the Packers the best WR core in the preseason...now where is that thread
KnowledgeReignsSupreme
Footballguy
When are people going to be tired of making excuses for Aaron Rodgers?
sho nuff
Footballguy
Scotty, your talk on the 3-4 is pretty funny.
Kampman is slightly out of position...but Minny also did well with him.
And the scheme seems to be doing some very good things with stopping the run this year.
Pressure is what they hope will come, Mattews is proving to be pretty darn good at that though and getting in the backfield.
But nobody thought it would be an overnight change in adapting to the 3-4...yet you expect it should be.
The team regressed in the 4-3 last year...were you whining about the scheme then?
Kampman is slightly out of position...but Minny also did well with him.
And the scheme seems to be doing some very good things with stopping the run this year.
Pressure is what they hope will come, Mattews is proving to be pretty darn good at that though and getting in the backfield.
But nobody thought it would be an overnight change in adapting to the 3-4...yet you expect it should be.
The team regressed in the 4-3 last year...were you whining about the scheme then?
ScottyFargo
Footballguy
Did you read the quotes from the players themselves? Maybe they weren't whining last season, but sure looks like the dam is breaking now.
Multiple Scores
Footballguy
How is Rodgers winning the poll? Favre has beat the Packers twice in convincing fashion. What is Rodgers Win Loss record as a starter? Is winning not the object of the game at it's most basic level? Come on now, Ted Thompson must be voting multiple times here to save face, speaking of Ted Thompson, I wonder how stupid he's feeling today, probably more than usual if that's possible.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Not making any for him...he has to keep progressing and gain that pocket presence.He also needed to use his legs early in that game. He had the sideline and the first down on that drive after the bad snap turnover for the Vikings...he tried going for the TD and ended up getting sacked...they settled for the FG.2 of the what, 6 last night, were all on him. The other 4...not so much.But do you seriously think the line has been giving him enough time game in and game out?
sho nuff
Footballguy
You have been going on about the 3-4 before the year even started.And Jenkins should be complaining, he has been invisible. But don't blame the scheme for that.The only complaint should be about Kampman. Jenkins was supposedly excited about this move early on and was playing pretty well into it.But players will complain after a loss. Its expected...they are frustrated.But its 7 games in for this team and this scheme.There are bumps in the road for sure...but some aspects of it are working quite well at times.This defense is still better than last year's...even with the complaining, even with all of these people supposedly out of position.
mozzy84
Footballguy
How is Rodgers winning the poll? Favre has beat the Packers twice in convincing fashion. What is Rodgers Win Loss record as a starter? Is winning not the object of the game at it's most basic level? Come on now, Ted Thompson must be voting multiple times here to save face, speaking of Ted Thompson, I wonder how stupid he's feeling today, probably more than usual if that's possible.
Rogers can have his offensive player of the month. Vikes will take the sweep and a 7-1 record with a week off.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Just wins?Well, I guess Vince Young is better than Aaron Rodgers...since he is something like 19-11 or 19-12 now.Rodgers is winning because the poll started a while ago.Record is part of it...but people actually take all aspects of the game into consideration when they voted.Right now, Favre is playing better and on a better team. But Rodgers is playing pretty darn well too (and has the #1 QB rating right now).Thompson probably is not feeling all that stupid...the QB he chose played pretty well.How is Rodgers winning the poll? Favre has beat the Packers twice in convincing fashion. What is Rodgers Win Loss record as a starter? Is winning not the object of the game at it's most basic level? Come on now, Ted Thompson must be voting multiple times here to save face, speaking of Ted Thompson, I wonder how stupid he's feeling today, probably more than usual if that's possible.
mozzy84
Footballguy
lets hope so, they were god awful last year. I think I saw Favre get hit once yesterday and that's against a line you like to say is bad in pass blocking.
