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Dynasty Rankings (2 Viewers)

Pretty sure SSOG was being a bit facetious. :lmao:
A bit, yeah, although the point I was making was a serious one. Yes, Leinart has been sitting on the bench for a long time. We have a lot of evidence suggesting that QBs continue to improve even if they're sitting on the bench, though. Witness: Philip Rivers, Aaron Rodgers, Chad Henne, and Carson Palmer not looking like rookies when they finally got the starting job. See also: Vince Young, who spent a year on the bench and, upon his return, promptly set career highs in TD%, YPA, and QB Rating, along with career lows in INT% and Sack%. I think there is every reason to believe that the Matt Leinart who will be starting for the Arizona Cardinals next year will be a much better QB than the Matt Leinart who Fitz averaged 81 yards a game with in the 6 games both players were healthy and together for in 2006 (pro-rates to 1291 yards).
Fitz's value without Warner was discussed a couple of months ago. I don't remember the exact numbers off the top of my head, but if you throw out his rookie season, Fitz has been a 90/1200 kind of guy with "Not Kurt Warner" at QB. And when you remember that "Not Kurt Warner", in Arizona's case, means "Josh McCown, John Navarre, and a rookie Matt Leinart", that's pretty darn impressive. Assuming "seasoned veteran Matt Leinart" is better than "green rookie Matt Leinart", I don't see anything wrong with banking on 90/1200/8 type numbers next season (better if Boldin's gone). That's still a top 10 WR. Heck, that's basically Roddy White in a nutshell.
QB play and oppportunity/targets are not the same thing. Almost anyone will have close to 90 receptions a year with the amount of targets fitz receives annually. he is perrenially in the top 5 if not top 3.
I don't know if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing with me. Do you think that Fitz is overrated because he gets a lot of targets, or do you think he's underrated because even when Warner is gone, he'll continue to get a lot of targets (and therefore still produce stud numbers)?Yes, Fitz gets an obscene amount of targets. The reason why he gets an obscene amount of targets is because he gets open an obscene percentage of the time. If an average WR got as many targets as Fitz, he'd probably produce studly numbers, too... but an average WR would never get as many targets as Fitz (Chris Chambers notwithstanding). Use the Data Dominator to see a list of WRs with 150+ targets in a single season since 2002. You certainly won't see any mediocre WRs on the list... let alone on the list FOUR TIMES. Here's a complete list of WRs who have gotten 150+ targets at least 3 times since 2002: Andre Johnson (x3), Randy Moss (x3), Brandon Marshall (x3), Anquan Boldin (x3), Laveranues Coles (x3), Torry Holt (x4), Fitzgerald (x4), Chad Ochocinco (x5). That's some pretty special company. You'll notice that names like Harrison (x1) and Owens (x2) didn't even make that list. Fitzgerald is ludicrously talented, and his target numbers are just a reflection of that talent (as are Boldin's). And if Boldin is gone, I'd expect the targets to actually go up, as hard as that otherwise might be to believe. I could see Fitz putting up 180+ targets in Arizona if Boldin was gone, a number which has been hit 5 times since 2002, but which would be 13 more than his previous career high and 30 more than he got last year.
 
Quick question about the 'Value' score. For example:

1. Chris Johnson, TEN | Age: 25.0 | Contract: Thru 2012 | Value Score: 100

vs.

4. Ray Rice, BAL | Age: 23.8 | Contract: Thru 2011 | Value Score: 95

How would this transfer as far as Dynasty Auction values are concerned? Let's say a cap of 1000. I ask because we're switching our redraft into a dynasty league next year, and I've been trying to find initial auction values for a dynasty start up, and this seems to be the closest place that assigns a value.

Any input would be greatly appreciated, as to how to approach an initial dynasty auction.

Thanks.

 
And if Boldin is gone, I'd expect the targets to actually go up, as hard as that otherwise might be to believe. I could see Fitz putting up 180+ targets in Arizona if Boldin was gone,
That would be assuming that the Cardinals are able to sustain drives as well as they did under Warner though. A lot more 3 and outs are going to cause the overall targets to decrease - perhaps significantly. I'm not saying that will actually happen, but I just have not been impressed with Leinart during his brief appearnces recently (St. Pierre looked much better after repalcing him in Week 17 and Leinart looked lost in the playoffs). I realize its unfiar to judge him on such small sample sizes, but as great as Fitzgerald is he can't put up the numbers we've grown accustomed to if the QB play isn't there.
 
And if Boldin is gone, I'd expect the targets to actually go up, as hard as that otherwise might be to believe. I could see Fitz putting up 180+ targets in Arizona if Boldin was gone,
That would be assuming that the Cardinals are able to sustain drives as well as they did under Warner though. A lot more 3 and outs are going to cause the overall targets to decrease - perhaps significantly. I'm not saying that will actually happen, but I just have not been impressed with Leinart during his brief appearnces recently (St. Pierre looked much better after repalcing him in Week 17 and Leinart looked lost in the playoffs). I realize its unfiar to judge him on such small sample sizes, but as great as Fitzgerald is he can't put up the numbers we've grown accustomed to if the QB play isn't there.
:lmao: It also assumes that the offensive philosophy doesn't change to a more balanced approach, which is what I expect. That would likely reduce passing attempts quite a bit independent of how good they are at sustaining drives. As I posted earlier, Fitz has only averaged 8.1 targets per game with Leinart, and that is in the pass-heavy offense.

 
I don't remember the exact numbers off the top of my head, but if you throw out his rookie season, Fitz has been a 90/1200 kind of guy with "Not Kurt Warner" at QB. I don't see anything wrong with banking on 90/1200/8 type numbers next season (better if Boldin's gone).
Just Win Baby said:
Games in which Fitzgerald played and Leinart had 20+ pass attempts:12 games, 97 targets, 60 receptions, 742 receiving yards (12.4 ypr), 4 TDsPer 16 games, this scales to 129 targets, 80 receptions, 989 receiving yards, 5 TDs
Just Win, there is a big difference between your numbers and SSOG's (about 50 pts in a PPR - from about WR9 to WR18, not horrible, but significant). From your data, do you know if that is due to his rookie season?
 
I don't remember the exact numbers off the top of my head, but if you throw out his rookie season, Fitz has been a 90/1200 kind of guy with "Not Kurt Warner" at QB. I don't see anything wrong with banking on 90/1200/8 type numbers next season (better if Boldin's gone).
Just Win Baby said:
Games in which Fitzgerald played and Leinart had 20+ pass attempts:12 games, 97 targets, 60 receptions, 742 receiving yards (12.4 ypr), 4 TDsPer 16 games, this scales to 129 targets, 80 receptions, 989 receiving yards, 5 TDs
Just Win, there is a big difference between your numbers and SSOG's (about 50 pts in a PPR - from about WR9 to WR18, not horrible, but significant). From your data, do you know if that is due to his rookie season?
One is Leinart specifically, one is anybody other than Warner.
 
I don't remember the exact numbers off the top of my head, but if you throw out his rookie season, Fitz has been a 90/1200 kind of guy with "Not Kurt Warner" at QB. I don't see anything wrong with banking on 90/1200/8 type numbers next season (better if Boldin's gone).
Just Win Baby said:
Games in which Fitzgerald played and Leinart had 20+ pass attempts:12 games, 97 targets, 60 receptions, 742 receiving yards (12.4 ypr), 4 TDsPer 16 games, this scales to 129 targets, 80 receptions, 989 receiving yards, 5 TDs
Just Win, there is a big difference between your numbers and SSOG's (about 50 pts in a PPR - from about WR9 to WR18, not horrible, but significant). From your data, do you know if that is due to his rookie season?
One is Leinart specifically, one is anybody other than Warner.
Thanks. I didn't see that.
 
Quick question about the 'Value' score. For example:1. Chris Johnson, TEN | Age: 25.0 | Contract: Thru 2012 | Value Score: 100vs.4. Ray Rice, BAL | Age: 23.8 | Contract: Thru 2011 | Value Score: 95How would this transfer as far as Dynasty Auction values are concerned? Let's say a cap of 1000. I ask because we're switching our redraft into a dynasty league next year, and I've been trying to find initial auction values for a dynasty start up, and this seems to be the closest place that assigns a value.Any input would be greatly appreciated, as to how to approach an initial dynasty auction.Thanks.
If you wanted to be accurate, you couldn't really draw a dynasty dollar value from these rankings because (I believe) they are created independently, without regard for the other positions. You'd need to take into account the relative value of each position in your league, based on scoring system and lineup requirements - not to mention your own personal stance on things like starter vs backup valuation and risk tolerance.
 
They'll need a backup even if Leinart shocks the world and learns to play the game. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see LeFevour in the 3rd. Give Leinart the start in 2010 and if he doesn't lock up the starting gig, it's a competition in 2011.
St. Pierre is a guy to consider in deeper leagues. Don't forget he was drafted by the Steelers when Whisenhunt was there, and Whisenhunt brought him over to Arizona. He's already 30 but he could get a chance very soon given the team is now sort of used to winning.
That would have to be an awfully deep league . . . like 32 teams and 50-man rosters.
 
I don't think there's been any kicker love in this thread, but for the sake of Dynasty, is it wrong that I'm feeling very good about having locked up Garrett Hartley? I know he had an early hiccup against Washington, but the way he came on and drilled the GWFG vs. Minny was great to see. Barring a super bowl implosion, he looks like the guy in N.O. -Young, strong leg-Will kick a MINIMUM of 9 games/yr. in a dome-High powered offense that moves the ball between the 20'sI know kickers are mostly pointless and hard to predict, but doesn't Hartley at least have better odds of becoming a Top 5 fantasy kicker than a name drawn out of a hat? OR, if you are a kicker-hater, can these thoughts be used to SELL Hartley to the believers, or at least toss him in to seal another deal? Has there been a kicker historically worth going out and getting (Akers/Vinatieri/Elam) who consistently outperformed his peers while in his prime, or is it truly a crap shoot like we are told? (and yes, I'm bored.)
Honestly, I've never seeen a kicker traded in any of my leagues.
Kickers are so unbelievably worthless in any trade scenario. Just keep him if you like him - don't bother trying to trade him.
I disagree with this. I always like having a quality kicker in a high scoring offense, and I think Hartley is a Top-3 option in Dynasty leagues -- arguably No. 1.
 
Instinctive said:
One is Leinart specifically, one is anybody other than Warner.
It wasn't just his numbers with Leinart, it's only his numbers in games where Leinart threw 20+ passes. Which I'm perfectly fine with (throw out the games where Leinart got injured so they don't skew the numbers)... but it's a double standard, because he kept a game where Leinart stayed healthy but Fitzgerald was injured. In addition, he also included Fitz's numbers from week 17 this year when Arizona didn't even care and clearly wasn't running the full gameplan. If you throw those games out of the data set, too (seems only fair), here are Fitz's numbers in games where Leinart threw more than 20 passes: 10 games, 90 targets, 55 receptions, 710 yards.Over 16 games, that'd be 144 targets, 88 receptions, 1136 yards. And again, this is with rookie/sophomore Leinart. So even if you want to go with "Leinart only", my 90/1200 estimation wasn't far off the mark at all.

And if Boldin is gone, I'd expect the targets to actually go up, as hard as that otherwise might be to believe. I could see Fitz putting up 180+ targets in Arizona if Boldin was gone,
That would be assuming that the Cardinals are able to sustain drives as well as they did under Warner though. A lot more 3 and outs are going to cause the overall targets to decrease - perhaps significantly. I'm not saying that will actually happen, but I just have not been impressed with Leinart during his brief appearnces recently (St. Pierre looked much better after repalcing him in Week 17 and Leinart looked lost in the playoffs). I realize its unfiar to judge him on such small sample sizes, but as great as Fitzgerald is he can't put up the numbers we've grown accustomed to if the QB play isn't there.
:lmao: It also assumes that the offensive philosophy doesn't change to a more balanced approach, which is what I expect. That would likely reduce passing attempts quite a bit independent of how good they are at sustaining drives. As I posted earlier, Fitz has only averaged 8.1 targets per game with Leinart, and that is in the pass-heavy offense.
Two main points to respond to, here. The first is that the loss of Boldin and Warner would lead to fewer sustained drives and fewer offensive plays, the second is that the loss of Warner and Boldin will lead to a radical shift in run/pass ratio.First: Loss of Warner/Boldin = fewer offensive plays.

Last season, Arizona ran 985 offensive plays. In 2008, they ran 998. In 2007, they ran 1016. The worst offense in the entire league during those seasons ran 911, 913, and 919 plays, respectively. Arizona's play totals have ranked 22nd, 15th, and 13th, respectively, in those three seasons. So Arizona is already only running an average number of plays. Even if their offense regresses, they're a stone-cold lock for at least 950 plays a year (only three teams ran fewer offensive plays than that last year), which would represent less than 50 fewer offensive plays over a full season.

Second: Loss of Warner/Boldin = dramatic shift in run/pass ratio.

The entire league as a whole passed 52.9% of the time last season. Arizona passed 60.3% of the time. Even if Arizona suffers a RADICAL scheme shift and becomes more run-heavy than the league-average team, they'll still almost certainly pass at least 50% of the time.

So let's consider a "perfect storm" so to speak- Arizona becomes one of the most run-heavy teams in the league *AND* Arizona finishes in the bottom 5 in total offensive plays. In that case, you could expect Arizona to run 950 plays. Half of them would be passes, for 475 passes. That's a reduction in pass attempts of 119 from what Arizona did this year, which is hugely significant. Of course, Boldin alone had 128 targets this year, meaning even in the absolute worst case scenario imaginable, there will still be more targets to go around. Might they go to Breaston or Doucet? Probably, but even if Arizona morphs into a terrible offense based on the run, there'll still be plenty of opportunity for Fitzgerald to put up 160+ targets.

 
From the "for what it's worth department."

I had an impromptu text message Q&A session with my friend Brad, recently of Cincinnati and now of Las Vegas. Brad, who used to work in sports talk radio, is one of the few people I trust almost implicitly on scouting reports. As far as I'm concerned he's the authority on the Bengals, Ohio St., & University of Cincinnati -- and he's an authority on college prospects. This is the guy who first turned me on to Chris Johnson during his senior year, and he also told me Brian Robiskie would be ordinary at best as a pro.

Brad: I really like your keepers article on Rotoworld. It boosts my ego because all of the RBs I was high on when they were coming out of college are ranked higher than expected: Chris Johnson, Jamaal Charles, Jonathan Stewart, Beanie Wells, Felix Jones.

F&L: That's true. You also missed the boat on Ray Rice. How did that happen?

Brad: Just missed his otherwordly balance, and he never seemed that fast to me. And UC players told me he was OK but nothing special. And since Rutgers had Brian Leonard, Rice never caught the ball ... or my eyes. When he starts receiving inevitable goal-line work, he will vault ahead of Jones-Drew. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he finishes No. 1 in RB points next season.

Brad: Also, Ocho is 100% the player he was five years ago.

F&L: OK, but Palmer is injured, right? The guys at Rotoworld keep insinuating that I'm being a bit too bold when I keep writing Palmer is obviously injured. I mean, I called the guy Chad Pennington at one point ... and I didn't think I was going overboard.

Brad: Right, the problem isn't Ocho. It's Palmer's elbow, which must be injured. He can't throw downfield anymore. Chad had no help at the other WR spot and a QB who couldn't go deep ... and he was still open all season. If Palmer gets fixed, Ocho could be a monster ... decent buy low.

F&L: So what is the word on Palmer? Physical or mechanical?

Brad: He's constantly over his WRs heads. Once a deep ball specialist and now he rarely tries it. Injured elbow early last season. For second time in his career he rejected surgery and elected rehab. Plenty of whispers around town early this season that his elbow wasn't fully healed. This was before it got ugly later in the year when he had no zip on any of his passes and was sailing many of his short throws.

F&L: Pretty much what I figured.

Brad: He used to win those long ball competitions during Pro Bowl week. He wasn't the first overall pick because he looked the part. His skillset was off the charts, and his '05 season proves it. He's a below average leader, but that has nothing to do with suddenly possessing a Chad Pennington arm.

F&L: Couldn't agree more. Thx.

 
And if Boldin is gone, I'd expect the targets to actually go up, as hard as that otherwise might be to believe. I could see Fitz putting up 180+ targets in Arizona if Boldin was gone,
That would be assuming that the Cardinals are able to sustain drives as well as they did under Warner though. A lot more 3 and outs are going to cause the overall targets to decrease - perhaps significantly. I'm not saying that will actually happen, but I just have not been impressed with Leinart during his brief appearnces recently (St. Pierre looked much better after repalcing him in Week 17 and Leinart looked lost in the playoffs). I realize its unfiar to judge him on such small sample sizes, but as great as Fitzgerald is he can't put up the numbers we've grown accustomed to if the QB play isn't there.
:goodposting: It also assumes that the offensive philosophy doesn't change to a more balanced approach, which is what I expect. That would likely reduce passing attempts quite a bit independent of how good they are at sustaining drives. As I posted earlier, Fitz has only averaged 8.1 targets per game with Leinart, and that is in the pass-heavy offense.
Two main points to respond to, here. The first is that the loss of Boldin and Warner would lead to fewer sustained drives and fewer offensive plays, the second is that the loss of Warner and Boldin will lead to a radical shift in run/pass ratio.First: Loss of Warner/Boldin = fewer offensive plays.

Last season, Arizona ran 985 offensive plays. In 2008, they ran 998. In 2007, they ran 1016. The worst offense in the entire league during those seasons ran 911, 913, and 919 plays, respectively. Arizona's play totals have ranked 22nd, 15th, and 13th, respectively, in those three seasons. So Arizona is already only running an average number of plays. Even if their offense regresses, they're a stone-cold lock for at least 950 plays a year (only three teams ran fewer offensive plays than that last year), which would represent less than 50 fewer offensive plays over a full season.

Second: Loss of Warner/Boldin = dramatic shift in run/pass ratio.

The entire league as a whole passed 52.9% of the time last season. Arizona passed 60.3% of the time. Even if Arizona suffers a RADICAL scheme shift and becomes more run-heavy than the league-average team, they'll still almost certainly pass at least 50% of the time.

So let's consider a "perfect storm" so to speak- Arizona becomes one of the most run-heavy teams in the league *AND* Arizona finishes in the bottom 5 in total offensive plays. In that case, you could expect Arizona to run 950 plays. Half of them would be passes, for 475 passes. That's a reduction in pass attempts of 119 from what Arizona did this year, which is hugely significant. Of course, Boldin alone had 128 targets this year, meaning even in the absolute worst case scenario imaginable, there will still be more targets to go around. Might they go to Breaston or Doucet? Probably, but even if Arizona morphs into a terrible offense based on the run, there'll still be plenty of opportunity for Fitzgerald to put up 160+ targets.
You ignored sacks. So to take it away from the extreme on plays, say the Cardinals run 975 offensive plays next year. Say they run 450 times (all positions). That would leave 525 passing plays. Leinart's career sack percentage is 4.6%, which is reasonably close to the percentage the Cards gave up in 2009 (4.2%). So I'll assume 24 sacks, leaving 501 passing attempts.Last year, the Cardinals targeted their WRs just under 70% of the time. However, assuming Boldin is gone and Leinart is at QB, I think there's a decent chance that number drops. So I'll assume 65% of the throws are targeted at their WRs. That would be 326 WR targets.

Last season, Fitz got 36.5% of the WR targets. With Boldin gone, we can assume Fitzgerald's percentage will go up, but I think Breaston and Doucet are talented enough that they'll get a fair number of targets... so I'll go with 45% for Fitz. That would give him 147 targets based on all of these numbers.

When I started this post, I wasn't sure where it would end up, I just worked out the numbers as I went. So I think what this shows is that Fitz can reasonably maintain his target numbers from this year and get around 150 targets. But I think 160+ is unlikely, much less 180+, both of which were mentioned in this tangent.

 
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You ignored sacks. So to take it away from the extreme on plays, say the Cardinals run 975 offensive plays next year. Say they run 450 times (all positions). That would leave 525 passing plays. Leinart's career sack percentage is 4.6%, which is reasonably close to the percentage the Cards gave up in 2009 (4.2%). So I'll assume 24 sacks, leaving 501 passing attempts.Last year, the Cardinals targeted their WRs just under 70% of the time. However, assuming Boldin is gone and Leinart is at QB, I think there's a decent chance that number drops. So I'll assume 65% of the throws are targeted at their WRs. That would be 326 WR targets.Last season, Fitz got 36.5% of the WR targets. With Boldin gone, we can assume Fitzgerald's percentage will go up, but I think Breaston and Doucet are talented enough that they'll get a fair number of targets... so I'll go with 45% for Fitz. That would give him 147 targets based on all of these numbers.When I started this post, I wasn't sure where it would end up, I just worked out the numbers as I went. So I think what this shows is that Fitz can reasonably maintain his target numbers from this year and get around 150 targets. But I think 160+ is unlikely, much less 180+, both of which were mentioned in this tangent.
I actually think that's a very reasonable look, and I could see 150 targets as a rational baseline for Fitzgerald next year. I said that I could see Fitz getting 180+ targets, not that I expected it. 180 targets is an OBSCENE amount. I would never anticipate any WR getting that total... but if one WR in the league was going to get it, my money would be on Fitz (sans Boldin). Anyway, using your 150 target figure and assuming Fitz would catch 60% of his targets (a bit below his career average) for 13.5 yards per reception (right at his career average), you'd have... 90 receptions for 1215 yards. Regardless of what steps I take to get there, I keep winding right up at my 90/1200 numbers again and again. The only real question in my mind is how many TDs he's going to get. On the one hand, his TD totals seem very, very likely to regress... but on the other, the only other guys in the league who have demonstrated a special ability to get double digit TDs are Moss and Owens... and Owens is already out to pasture, and we don't know how far behind Moss is. That's why I threw out the 8 TD projection earlier- it seems pretty fair to me. Which again leaves me at 90/1200/8. A slight downtick from what he's been producing recently, but a couple 90/1200/8 years are not enough to get me to drop the 27-year old, most talented, most proven WR in the entire NFL out of the #1 dynasty WR position.
 
From the "for what it's worth department."

I had an impromptu text message Q&A session with my friend Brad, recently of Cincinnati and now of Las Vegas. Brad, who used to work in sports talk radio, is one of the few people I trust almost implicitly on scouting reports. As far as I'm concerned he's the authority on the Bengals, Ohio St., & University of Cincinnati -- and he's an authority on college prospects. This is the guy who first turned me on to Chris Johnson during his senior year, and he also told me Brian Robiskie would be ordinary at best as a pro.

Brad: I really like your keepers article on Rotoworld. It boosts my ego because all of the RBs I was high on when they were coming out of college are ranked higher than expected: Chris Johnson, Jamaal Charles, Jonathan Stewart, Beanie Wells, Felix Jones.

F&L: That's true. You also missed the boat on Ray Rice. How did that happen?

Brad: Just missed his otherwordly balance, and he never seemed that fast to me. And UC players told me he was OK but nothing special. And since Rutgers had Brian Leonard, Rice never caught the ball ... or my eyes. When he starts receiving inevitable goal-line work, he will vault ahead of Jones-Drew. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he finishes No. 1 in RB points next season.

Brad: Also, Ocho is 100% the player he was five years ago.

F&L: OK, but Palmer is injured, right? The guys at Rotoworld keep insinuating that I'm being a bit too bold when I keep writing Palmer is obviously injured. I mean, I called the guy Chad Pennington at one point ... and I didn't think I was going overboard.

Brad: Right, the problem isn't Ocho. It's Palmer's elbow, which must be injured. He can't throw downfield anymore. Chad had no help at the other WR spot and a QB who couldn't go deep ... and he was still open all season. If Palmer gets fixed, Ocho could be a monster ... decent buy low.

F&L: So what is the word on Palmer? Physical or mechanical?

Brad: He's constantly over his WRs heads. Once a deep ball specialist and now he rarely tries it. Injured elbow early last season. For second time in his career he rejected surgery and elected rehab. Plenty of whispers around town early this season that his elbow wasn't fully healed. This was before it got ugly later in the year when he had no zip on any of his passes and was sailing many of his short throws.

F&L: Pretty much what I figured.

Brad: He used to win those long ball competitions during Pro Bowl week. He wasn't the first overall pick because he looked the part. His skillset was off the charts, and his '05 season proves it. He's a below average leader, but that has nothing to do with suddenly possessing a Chad Pennington arm.

F&L: Couldn't agree more. Thx.
Great read...thanks for posting this.
 
Brad: Also, Ocho is 100% the player he was five years ago.

F&L: OK, but Palmer is injured, right? The guys at Rotoworld keep insinuating that I'm being a bit too bold when I keep writing Palmer is obviously injured. I mean, I called the guy Chad Pennington at one point ... and I didn't think I was going overboard.

Brad: Right, the problem isn't Ocho. It's Palmer's elbow, which must be injured. He can't throw downfield anymore. Chad had no help at the other WR spot and a QB who couldn't go deep ... and he was still open all season. If Palmer gets fixed, Ocho could be a monster ... decent buy low.

F&L: So what is the word on Palmer? Physical or mechanical?

Brad: He's constantly over his WRs heads. Once a deep ball specialist and now he rarely tries it. Injured elbow early last season. For second time in his career he rejected surgery and elected rehab. Plenty of whispers around town early this season that his elbow wasn't fully healed. This was before it got ugly later in the year when he had no zip on any of his passes and was sailing many of his short throws.

F&L: Pretty much what I figured.

Brad: He used to win those long ball competitions during Pro Bowl week. He wasn't the first overall pick because he looked the part. His skillset was off the charts, and his '05 season proves it. He's a below average leader, but that has nothing to do with suddenly possessing a Chad Pennington arm.

F&L: Couldn't agree more. Thx.
This is spot on. I remember the team Doctors wanted Palmer to have Tommy John surgery, but surgery and rehab would have kept Palmer out of action for the better part of 2 seasons. Instead, Palmer found a surgeon who recommended resting the elbow and letting the ligament heal itself.
 
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GreatLakesMike said:
Fear & Loathing said:
Brad: Also, Ocho is 100% the player he was five years ago.

F&L: OK, but Palmer is injured, right? The guys at Rotoworld keep insinuating that I'm being a bit too bold when I keep writing Palmer is obviously injured. I mean, I called the guy Chad Pennington at one point ... and I didn't think I was going overboard.

Brad: Right, the problem isn't Ocho. It's Palmer's elbow, which must be injured. He can't throw downfield anymore. Chad had no help at the other WR spot and a QB who couldn't go deep ... and he was still open all season. If Palmer gets fixed, Ocho could be a monster ... decent buy low.

F&L: So what is the word on Palmer? Physical or mechanical?

Brad: He's constantly over his WRs heads. Once a deep ball specialist and now he rarely tries it. Injured elbow early last season. For second time in his career he rejected surgery and elected rehab. Plenty of whispers around town early this season that his elbow wasn't fully healed. This was before it got ugly later in the year when he had no zip on any of his passes and was sailing many of his short throws.

F&L: Pretty much what I figured.

Brad: He used to win those long ball competitions during Pro Bowl week. He wasn't the first overall pick because he looked the part. His skillset was off the charts, and his '05 season proves it. He's a below average leader, but that has nothing to do with suddenly possessing a Chad Pennington arm.

F&L: Couldn't agree more. Thx.
This is spot on. I remember the team Doctors wanted Palmer to have Tommy John surgery, but surgery and rehab would have kept Palmer out of action for the better part of 2 seasons. Instead, Palmer found a surgeon who recommended resting the elbow and letting the ligament heal itself.
Good stuff, F&L.The problem I see with Ocho being a buy low is by the time Palmer is fixed, Ocho will be close to 34 years old. I can't see Cincy signing a significant QB in the interim.

 
How highly does everyone value Jamaal Charles going forward in a PPR league? I'm trying to make a trade for him in my dynasty league to upgrade my weak RB corps. What do you think he is worth? Is it too fast to buy into his late season explosion or is now the time to buy on him?

 
How highly does everyone value Jamaal Charles going forward in a PPR league? I'm trying to make a trade for him in my dynasty league to upgrade my weak RB corps. What do you think he is worth? Is it too fast to buy into his late season explosion or is now the time to buy on him?
If you think he's going up, or that the late season prorated is what you'll get in a real season, then now's the time.Well actually, not quite. I would wati until right after NFL draft when everyone is excited about rookies and Charles thoughts are out of sight, out of mind.But I wouldnt buy at his upside, which is what many are selling at. Too risky, IMO.
 
How highly does everyone value Jamaal Charles going forward in a PPR league? I'm trying to make a trade for him in my dynasty league to upgrade my weak RB corps. What do you think he is worth? Is it too fast to buy into his late season explosion or is now the time to buy on him?
If my attempts to land Charles are the norm you should expect to have your mind blown by what it will take to get him. Every owner I have contacted is talking like he is a top 5 RB. I would say at this point he is the hottest commodity in fantasy football. One owner said every person in our league had sent an offer.
 
How highly does everyone value Jamaal Charles going forward in a PPR league? I'm trying to make a trade for him in my dynasty league to upgrade my weak RB corps. What do you think he is worth? Is it too fast to buy into his late season explosion or is now the time to buy on him?
If my attempts to land Charles are the norm you should expect to have your mind blown by what it will take to get him. Every owner I have contacted is talking like he is a top 5 RB. I would say at this point he is the hottest commodity in fantasy football. One owner said every person in our league had sent an offer.
Gore for Charles straight up.
 
How highly does everyone value Jamaal Charles going forward in a PPR league? I'm trying to make a trade for him in my dynasty league to upgrade my weak RB corps. What do you think he is worth? Is it too fast to buy into his late season explosion or is now the time to buy on him?
Lots of quality in-depth Jamaal Charles discussion over the last 10-15 pages of this thread. If you don't have the time, then head for pages 138 & 139 (maybe starting at post #6807).Also this thread has very good Jamaal Charles debate from the usual suspects.

 
F&L, I'm really interested on your opinion on Vick and his value going forward. With Warner retiring, my QBs took a huge hit...Currently rostering Peyton, Leinart, and Warner in a league that you can start 1-3 QBs.Scoring for QBs is:Passing TDs: 5-8 pt depending on length.084 per passing yard, 3 pts bonus for every 250 yds-1 per sack, -3 per INT.143 per rushing yardThanks in advance, looking forward to your response once again
I am actually the Vick owner in both of my Dynasty leagues. I drafted him last year in one league and held on to him all season ... and just received a trade inquiry this morning. In the FB Guys Dynasty Thread League, I acquired him as a throw-in right before the playoffs because my QBs were Brett Favre and Kurt Warner. I honestly have no idea how Vick will do after not starting since 2006. I do believe he will end up starting for someone in 2010, likely St. Louis or Buffalo. I don't know if the rust will kill him, or if he's lost too much athleticism. But this I do believe: a player like Vick is absolutely worth owning for the best-case scenario chance. He's a swing for the fences type of high-upside stash. And, really, what's the point of a stash unless he has high upside? Gun to my head, I envision Vick as a quality QB2 next season with the upside to reach weekly fantasy starter in the right situation.
 
How highly does everyone value Jamaal Charles going forward in a PPR league? I'm trying to make a trade for him in my dynasty league to upgrade my weak RB corps. What do you think he is worth? Is it too fast to buy into his late season explosion or is now the time to buy on him?
Lots of quality in-depth Jamaal Charles discussion over the last 10-15 pages of this thread. If you don't have the time, then head for pages 138 & 139 (maybe starting at post #6807).Also this thread has very good Jamaal Charles debate from the usual suspects.
Thanks for that, F & L. Really good discussion there. It's helped a lot. Thanks! :popcorn:
 
How highly does everyone value Jamaal Charles going forward in a PPR league? I'm trying to make a trade for him in my dynasty league to upgrade my weak RB corps. What do you think he is worth? Is it too fast to buy into his late season explosion or is now the time to buy on him?
Lots of quality in-depth Jamaal Charles discussion over the last 10-15 pages of this thread. If you don't have the time, then head for pages 138 & 139 (maybe starting at post #6807).Also this thread has very good Jamaal Charles debate from the usual suspects.
Thanks for that, F & L. Really good discussion there. It's helped a lot. Thanks! :)
Would not be surprised at all if Charles finishes in the Top 5 next season......When I'm sold on someone, I go get him to strengthen my team. I wouldn't worry about the consensus think tank mentality stating that it is too risky to buy someone at a certain value. Go with your instincts if you believe in what you see. Those that wait on the sidelines undecided usually fall into 1 of 2 categories;1) They don't trust their evaluation of talent

2) They are just conservative by nature

If you wait for Charles to have a full season of top-notch production to "justify his price", do you believe you will be able to get him then at his current price, which is deemed extremely high already? If it doesn't work out quite as planned, so what! I'd rather go down being aggressive and trusting my own instincts vs losing out on a stud player that I was too indecisive on when the "story" was right there in front of me waiting to be read (i.e., investigate and decide) - yeah, I know, these are only two of the potential outcomes, but two that would leave an owner like me feeling the worst. My point is that given a decent sample size, it shouldn't take long to make a decision on whether or not a player is legit or not, and if you really can't tell, then consult the experts....... :football:

 
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It's fun looking at the site Dynasty Rankings and seeing John Norton having updated his list on 1/10/10 and having Brian Westbrook ranked 8th.

:rant:

A few notable others - again, we're talking rankings dated 1/10/10:

Tomlinson - 14th

Ray Rice - 24th

:wall:

 
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It's fun looking at the site Dynasty Rankings and seeing John Norton having updated his list on 1/10/10 and having Brian Westbrook ranked 8th. :hifive:A few notable others - again, we're talking rankings dated 1/10/10:Tomlinson - 14thRay Rice - 24th :hifive:
Yea those ranking among others (Jonathan Stewart 26th? Jaamal Charles 42nd? Steve Slaton 11th?) THe fact that subscriber content contains that type of drivel is surprising. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on players obviously and in dynasty leagues especially these rankings are extremely fluid. That being said Norton should be ashamed of those rankings.
 
So it sounds like Palmer is headed for another bad season, dragging Ocho and the rest of the pass offense down with him. Am I reading that right? Or is there a reasonable chance that Palmer will be healthy, and that means Ocho is a good buy low?

 
Yea those ranking among others (Jonathan Stewart 26th? Jaamal Charles 42nd? Steve Slaton 11th?) THe fact that subscriber content contains that type of drivel is surprising. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on players obviously and in dynasty leagues especially these rankings are extremely fluid. That being said Norton should be ashamed of those rankings.
I checked and Norton's rankings and it looks like there was an error on the date. Brandon Jacobs at 12, LT at 14, no way. Zero chance he put in those rankings last month.
 
Yea those ranking among others (Jonathan Stewart 26th? Jaamal Charles 42nd? Steve Slaton 11th?) THe fact that subscriber content contains that type of drivel is surprising. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on players obviously and in dynasty leagues especially these rankings are extremely fluid. That being said Norton should be ashamed of those rankings.
I checked and Norton's rankings and it looks like there was an error on the date. Brandon Jacobs at 12, LT at 14, no way. Zero chance he put in those rankings last month.
Funny that this was brought up. Earlier today i almost started a thread to question his rankings. This was the reason i didnt, i also thought the dates were wrong. However, if everything is accurate, FBG needs to get some different guys doing their dynasty rankings. I also think whoever is listing their ranking should update 5-6 times during the season, and once a month during the offseason. As a subscriber, i often refer to the consensus as a tool to guage a players perceived dynasty value.
 
I don't think there's been any kicker love in this thread, but for the sake of Dynasty, is it wrong that I'm feeling very good about having locked up Garrett Hartley? I know he had an early hiccup against Washington, but the way he came on and drilled the GWFG vs. Minny was great to see. Barring a super bowl implosion, he looks like the guy in N.O. -Young, strong leg-Will kick a MINIMUM of 9 games/yr. in a dome-High powered offense that moves the ball between the 20'sI know kickers are mostly pointless and hard to predict, but doesn't Hartley at least have better odds of becoming a Top 5 fantasy kicker than a name drawn out of a hat? OR, if you are a kicker-hater, can these thoughts be used to SELL Hartley to the believers, or at least toss him in to seal another deal? Has there been a kicker historically worth going out and getting (Akers/Vinatieri/Elam) who consistently outperformed his peers while in his prime, or is it truly a crap shoot like we are told? (and yes, I'm bored.)
Honestly, I've never seeen a kicker traded in any of my leagues.
Kickers are so unbelievably worthless in any trade scenario. Just keep him if you like him - don't bother trying to trade him.
I disagree with this. I always like having a quality kicker in a high scoring offense, and I think Hartley is a Top-3 option in Dynasty leagues -- arguably No. 1.
Certainly you want to find a kicker on an offense you project to be high scoring. But there is so much variability year to year with kickers that I personally put very low value on them. In fact, I drop my PK every year in week 17 to pick up a position player that I think has a good chance of seeing improved value in the offseason. You can always draft a replacement PK late in your rookie (or our league has a FA draft after the rookie draft). This year for example I was able to pick up Akers. So, IMO, Hartlery, though he is on a good offense, is no more than a throw-in player.
 
How about Fitz? It seems that while his value shouldn't drop, his production most likely will. A look back at the last 3 years during the games Warner was out and Fitz's production wasn't too good with Leinart at QB. Subtract Boldin from their lineup and it's got to affect him even more.
Fitz's value without Warner was discussed a couple of months ago. I don't remember the exact numbers off the top of my head, but if you throw out his rookie season, Fitz has been a 90/1200 kind of guy with "Not Kurt Warner" at QB. And when you remember that "Not Kurt Warner", in Arizona's case, means "Josh McCown, John Navarre, and a rookie Matt Leinart", that's pretty darn impressive. Assuming "seasoned veteran Matt Leinart" is better than "green rookie Matt Leinart", I don't see anything wrong with banking on 90/1200/8 type numbers next season (better if Boldin's gone). That's still a top 10 WR. Heck, that's basically Roddy White in a nutshell.
Yep. Here are those #'s btw...
With Warner:

6.3 rec, 90.3yds, 0.7 TDs per game

Over a 16 game season, that prorates out to 101 rec, 1445 yds, 11 TDs

Without Warner:

4.6 rec, 60.9yds, 0.46 TDs per game

Over a 16 game season, that prorates out to 74 rec, 974 yds, 7 TDs

Without Warner (rookie season thrown out):

5.9rec, 77 yds, 0.41 TDs per game

Over a 16 game season, that prorates out to 94 rec, 1230 yds, 6 TDs
EDIT: Those are from last offseason, so they don't include 2009's stats with Warner.Also, I think Boldin being gone would mitigate the loss of Warner somewhat.

 
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From the "for what it's worth department."

I had an impromptu text message Q&A session with my friend Brad, recently of Cincinnati and now of Las Vegas. Brad, who used to work in sports talk radio, is one of the few people I trust almost implicitly on scouting reports. As far as I'm concerned he's the authority on the Bengals, Ohio St., & University of Cincinnati -- and he's an authority on college prospects. This is the guy who first turned me on to Chris Johnson during his senior year, and he also told me Brian Robiskie would be ordinary at best as a pro.

Brad: I really like your keepers article on Rotoworld. It boosts my ego because all of the RBs I was high on when they were coming out of college are ranked higher than expected: Chris Johnson, Jamaal Charles, Jonathan Stewart, Beanie Wells, Felix Jones.

F&L: That's true. You also missed the boat on Ray Rice. How did that happen?

Brad: Just missed his otherwordly balance, and he never seemed that fast to me. And UC players told me he was OK but nothing special. And since Rutgers had Brian Leonard, Rice never caught the ball ... or my eyes. When he starts receiving inevitable goal-line work, he will vault ahead of Jones-Drew. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he finishes No. 1 in RB points next season.

Brad: Also, Ocho is 100% the player he was five years ago.

F&L: OK, but Palmer is injured, right? The guys at Rotoworld keep insinuating that I'm being a bit too bold when I keep writing Palmer is obviously injured. I mean, I called the guy Chad Pennington at one point ... and I didn't think I was going overboard.

Brad: Right, the problem isn't Ocho. It's Palmer's elbow, which must be injured. He can't throw downfield anymore. Chad had no help at the other WR spot and a QB who couldn't go deep ... and he was still open all season. If Palmer gets fixed, Ocho could be a monster ... decent buy low.

F&L: So what is the word on Palmer? Physical or mechanical?

Brad: He's constantly over his WRs heads. Once a deep ball specialist and now he rarely tries it. Injured elbow early last season. For second time in his career he rejected surgery and elected rehab. Plenty of whispers around town early this season that his elbow wasn't fully healed. This was before it got ugly later in the year when he had no zip on any of his passes and was sailing many of his short throws.

F&L: Pretty much what I figured.

Brad: He used to win those long ball competitions during Pro Bowl week. He wasn't the first overall pick because he looked the part. His skillset was off the charts, and his '05 season proves it. He's a below average leader, but that has nothing to do with suddenly possessing a Chad Pennington arm.

F&L: Couldn't agree more. Thx.
I just find this situation bizarre. I was one of the more vocal guys when he initially refused surgery. If everyone knows his elbow is still bad, why is he the QB of this team? He's signed through 2014 unless I'm mistaken. Why would the Bengals keep him and pay out the $120 million if he's Chad Pennington? Why would the Bengals wait out this bogus self healing when they are vested $120 million into the guy? Hell, he could have been healed by now entering his prime for the last 4 years of his heavy contract.
 
I just find this situation bizarre. I was one of the more vocal guys when he initially refused surgery. If everyone knows his elbow is still bad, why is he the QB of this team? He's signed through 2014 unless I'm mistaken. Why would the Bengals keep him and pay out the $120 million if he's Chad Pennington? Why would the Bengals wait out this bogus self healing when they are vested $120 million into the guy? Hell, he could have been healed by now entering his prime for the last 4 years of his heavy contract.
Right. What's even more bizarre is that even couch potato fans can tell there's something wrong with his arm, but not a single analyst will say the same thing. Phil Simms, Boomer Esiason, Chris Mortensen -- I've seen quotes by all of these guys in the past few weeks insisting that Carson Palmer is fine, still one of the league's elite QBs, and that the receivers are the problem in Cincy's offense. I'm downright flummoxed when I read that stuff.
 
I just find this situation bizarre. I was one of the more vocal guys when he initially refused surgery. If everyone knows his elbow is still bad, why is he the QB of this team? He's signed through 2014 unless I'm mistaken. Why would the Bengals keep him and pay out the $120 million if he's Chad Pennington? Why would the Bengals wait out this bogus self healing when they are vested $120 million into the guy? Hell, he could have been healed by now entering his prime for the last 4 years of his heavy contract.
Right. What's even more bizarre is that even couch potato fans can tell there's something wrong with his arm, but not a single analyst will say the same thing. Phil Simms, Boomer Esiason, Chris Mortensen -- I've seen quotes by all of these guys in the past few weeks insisting that Carson Palmer is fine, still one of the league's elite QBs, and that the receivers are the problem in Cincy's offense. I'm downright flummoxed when I read that stuff.
It bugs me that these ex-players get easy gigs as commentators because they usually are not that insightful or eloquent, and mostly they tend to avoid saying anything bad about current players because of being members of the "club." This is especially true of QBs. The question for me with Palmer is whether he is more or less likely to improve with another off season of rest or if he really needed the surgery, plain and simple. I don't know enough about his injury to say.
 
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I just find this situation bizarre. I was one of the more vocal guys when he initially refused surgery. If everyone knows his elbow is still bad, why is he the QB of this team? He's signed through 2014 unless I'm mistaken. Why would the Bengals keep him and pay out the $120 million if he's Chad Pennington? Why would the Bengals wait out this bogus self healing when they are vested $120 million into the guy? Hell, he could have been healed by now entering his prime for the last 4 years of his heavy contract.
Right. What's even more bizarre is that even couch potato fans can tell there's something wrong with his arm, but not a single analyst will say the same thing. Phil Simms, Boomer Esiason, Chris Mortensen -- I've seen quotes by all of these guys in the past few weeks insisting that Carson Palmer is fine, still one of the league's elite QBs, and that the receivers are the problem in Cincy's offense. I'm downright flummoxed when I read that stuff.
It bugs me that these ex-players get easy gigs as commentators because they usually are not that insightful or eloquent, and mostly they tend to avoid saying anything bad about current players because of being members of the "club." This is especially true of QBs. The question for me with Palmer is whether he is more or less likely to improve with another off season of rest or if he really needed the surgery, plain and simple. I don't know enough about his injury to say.
I agree. I think we're all stuck with that question on Palmer. I find it hard to believe, though, that this is something that will improve with rest after it obviously didn't bring him close to 100 percent after last season's rest and rehab.
 
Where do you guys stand on Michael Bush's value going forward? As I scan through his game logs, it seems like the Raiders didn't give him enough touches to make an impact in some games, while in others he was the go-to guy. Does the presence of McFadden and Fargas really decrease his value, or do you think Fargas will be fazed out somewhat in 2010 for more of a Bush/McFadden combo?

 
I just find this situation bizarre. I was one of the more vocal guys when he initially refused surgery. If everyone knows his elbow is still bad, why is he the QB of this team? He's signed through 2014 unless I'm mistaken. Why would the Bengals keep him and pay out the $120 million if he's Chad Pennington? Why would the Bengals wait out this bogus self healing when they are vested $120 million into the guy? Hell, he could have been healed by now entering his prime for the last 4 years of his heavy contract.
Right. What's even more bizarre is that even couch potato fans can tell there's something wrong with his arm, but not a single analyst will say the same thing. Phil Simms, Boomer Esiason, Chris Mortensen -- I've seen quotes by all of these guys in the past few weeks insisting that Carson Palmer is fine, still one of the league's elite QBs, and that the receivers are the problem in Cincy's offense. I'm downright flummoxed when I read that stuff.
It bugs me that these ex-players get easy gigs as commentators because they usually are not that insightful or eloquent, and mostly they tend to avoid saying anything bad about current players because of being members of the "club." This is especially true of QBs. The question for me with Palmer is whether he is more or less likely to improve with another off season of rest or if he really needed the surgery, plain and simple. I don't know enough about his injury to say.
I agree. I think we're all stuck with that question on Palmer. I find it hard to believe, though, that this is something that will improve with rest after it obviously didn't bring him close to 100 percent after last season's rest and rehab.
Palmer's arm strength at the beginning of the season wasn't good, but it was good enough for a QB of his caliber. My thoughts: Palmer's arm strength was like a balloon leaking air... as the season wore on, more and more air leaked out, and eventually there wasn't anything left. I don't even think Palmer had Pennington's arm strength by the end of the season. The injury also affected his accuracy. Limited arm strength and accuracy is not a good combo for a QB, no matter how good he is at reading defenses and getting the ball out.

I really hope he bites the bullet and has surgery. At one time, I would have put Palmer up there with Manning and Brady. He was a major talent IMO. It's a shame to see injuries wipe away a promising career.

 
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Where do you guys stand on Michael Bush's value going forward? As I scan through his game logs, it seems like the Raiders didn't give him enough touches to make an impact in some games, while in others he was the go-to guy. Does the presence of McFadden and Fargas really decrease his value, or do you think Fargas will be fazed out somewhat in 2010 for more of a Bush/McFadden combo?
I really like Bush to have a lot of value as early as next year. With the Raiders? Who knows. I think Fargas or Bush is gone from the Raiders. They want it to be McFadden and he will get another shot. When Bush gets his chance, look out.
 
Where do you guys stand on Michael Bush's value going forward? As I scan through his game logs, it seems like the Raiders didn't give him enough touches to make an impact in some games, while in others he was the go-to guy. Does the presence of McFadden and Fargas really decrease his value, or do you think Fargas will be fazed out somewhat in 2010 for more of a Bush/McFadden combo?
I really like Bush to have a lot of value as early as next year. With the Raiders? Who knows. I think Fargas or Bush is gone from the Raiders. They want it to be McFadden and he will get another shot. When Bush gets his chance, look out.
I agree with you. I'm trying to acquire him in my league from an owner who also has McFadden on his roster. I have made offers for McFadden before, but he covets him a great deal, so I figure Bush is a good target.
 
Fitz's value without Warner was discussed a couple of months ago. I don't remember the exact numbers off the top of my head, but if you throw out his rookie season, Fitz has been a 90/1200 kind of guy with "Not Kurt Warner" at QB. And when you remember that "Not Kurt Warner", in Arizona's case, means "Josh McCown, John Navarre, and a rookie Matt Leinart", that's pretty darn impressive. Assuming "seasoned veteran Matt Leinart" is better than "green rookie Matt Leinart", I don't see anything wrong with banking on 90/1200/8 type numbers next season (better if Boldin's gone). That's still a top 10 WR. Heck, that's basically Roddy White in a nutshell.
Yep. Here are those #'s btw...
With Warner:

6.3 rec, 90.3yds, 0.7 TDs per game

Over a 16 game season, that prorates out to 101 rec, 1445 yds, 11 TDs

Without Warner:

4.6 rec, 60.9yds, 0.46 TDs per game

Over a 16 game season, that prorates out to 74 rec, 974 yds, 7 TDs

Without Warner (rookie season thrown out):

5.9rec, 77 yds, 0.41 TDs per game

Over a 16 game season, that prorates out to 94 rec, 1230 yds, 6 TDs
EDIT: Those are from last offseason, so they don't include 2009's stats with Warner.Also, I think Boldin being gone would mitigate the loss of Warner somewhat.
Thanks a bunch, Bagel, those were exactly the numbers I was thinking of. :rolleyes: Obviously Boldin being gone isn't a done deal at this point, but we're talking Dynasty, and I think there's a 0% chance that Boldin is still a Cardinal two seasons from now. For the next year or two, Fitzgerald might "only" be a low-end top 10 option... but that's a small price to pay for such a transcendent talent. Besides, it's not like Calvin Johnson is more likely to put up a top 5 finish than Fitzgerald is next year, Warner or no Warner.

Outside of Andre Johnson and maybe Randy Moss, what kind of WRs would people take over Fitzgerald in redraft next season? Serious question- I'm curious about what the FBG consensus opinion is on how far Fitz will fall next year.

 
Fitz's value without Warner was discussed a couple of months ago. I don't remember the exact numbers off the top of my head, but if you throw out his rookie season, Fitz has been a 90/1200 kind of guy with "Not Kurt Warner" at QB. And when you remember that "Not Kurt Warner", in Arizona's case, means "Josh McCown, John Navarre, and a rookie Matt Leinart", that's pretty darn impressive. Assuming "seasoned veteran Matt Leinart" is better than "green rookie Matt Leinart", I don't see anything wrong with banking on 90/1200/8 type numbers next season (better if Boldin's gone). That's still a top 10 WR. Heck, that's basically Roddy White in a nutshell.
Yep. Here are those #'s btw...
With Warner:

6.3 rec, 90.3yds, 0.7 TDs per game

Over a 16 game season, that prorates out to 101 rec, 1445 yds, 11 TDs

Without Warner:

4.6 rec, 60.9yds, 0.46 TDs per game

Over a 16 game season, that prorates out to 74 rec, 974 yds, 7 TDs

Without Warner (rookie season thrown out):

5.9rec, 77 yds, 0.41 TDs per game

Over a 16 game season, that prorates out to 94 rec, 1230 yds, 6 TDs
EDIT: Those are from last offseason, so they don't include 2009's stats with Warner.Also, I think Boldin being gone would mitigate the loss of Warner somewhat.
Thanks a bunch, Bagel, those were exactly the numbers I was thinking of. :thumbup: Obviously Boldin being gone isn't a done deal at this point, but we're talking Dynasty, and I think there's a 0% chance that Boldin is still a Cardinal two seasons from now. For the next year or two, Fitzgerald might "only" be a low-end top 10 option... but that's a small price to pay for such a transcendent talent. Besides, it's not like Calvin Johnson is more likely to put up a top 5 finish than Fitzgerald is next year, Warner or no Warner.

Outside of Andre Johnson and maybe Randy Moss, what kind of WRs would people take over Fitzgerald in redraft next season? Serious question- I'm curious about what the FBG consensus opinion is on how far Fitz will fall next year.
In a redraft? Reggie Wayne, perhaps. I don't know that I can answer it because I would be waiting until after he's gone and then taking a combo of White/Jennings/Santonio/Gates. Yeah...that's my "6 months early" strategy lol.ETA: I actually probably would rank Santonio and Jennings ahead of him. Jennings had a pretty solid end to his season and has a great QB, and I just have this strange hunch on Holmes. I can't explain it, so I'll have to try later...but I have a hunch on Holmes. Roddy White is a guy i would look to add before him as well.

 
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Isn't this a dynasty thread?
SSOG said:
Thanks a bunch, Bagel, those were exactly the numbers I was thinking of. :blackdot:Obviously Boldin being gone isn't a done deal at this point, but we're talking Dynasty, and I think there's a 0% chance that Boldin is still a Cardinal two seasons from now. For the next year or two, Fitzgerald might "only" be a low-end top 10 option... but that's a small price to pay for such a transcendent talent. Besides, it's not like Calvin Johnson is more likely to put up a top 5 finish than Fitzgerald is next year, Warner or no Warner.Outside of Andre Johnson and maybe Randy Moss, what kind of WRs would people take over Fitzgerald in redraft next season? Serious question- I'm curious about what the FBG consensus opinion is on how far Fitz will fall next year.
 
Lest anyone accuse me of only delivering the facts that support my own argument, there's a new article up on ESPN about Brandon Marshall:

After a tumultuous end to a promising-turned-disappointing season for the Broncos, owner Pat Bowlen and receiver Brandon Marshall fell onto the same page last week, both saying they'd like the two-time Pro Bowler back with the team next season.

"I think Brandon is going through a maturing process," Bowlen said, according to The Denver Post. "Personally, I saw change in his personality and approach to things [this season]. He didn't have the same sort of attitude and anxiety that he's had. I personally would like to see him stay. And there's still a good possibility that could happen."

Marshall, who is set to become an unrestricted free agent this offseason, would become a restricted free agent if the owners and players' union don't strike a labor agreement by March 5, giving the Broncos an upper hand should they want to sign him.

"Now, if the head coach sits down and says no, I want to trade him, or I've got a deal that's going to be beneficial to the club, I don't think I'm going to override him," Bowlen said Saturday of Broncos coach Josh McDaniels, according to the newspaper.

McDaniels benched Marshall for the regular-season finale after he was late to a scheduled therapy session for treatment of a hamstring injury the team already believed he was exaggerating.

But Marshall and the Broncos were at odds even before the season began.

Marshall didn't participate in a mandatory June minicamp and was suspended by the team for a week shortly before the season started after "detrimental" conduct during a practice in which he batted away a pass thrown to him, punted a ball instead of handing it to a ball boy and at one point walked as the rest of the team ran in a pre-practice warmup.

"Learning from last year and last offseason, I approached things unprofessional," Marshall said Thursday at the Super Bowl XLIV media center, according to The Post. "This offseason I'm just going to go with the flow and just go in whatever direction the Broncos want to go."

The Broncos started the season with six straight wins before going 2-8 and failing to gain a playoff berth.

Marshall finished with 1,120 yards on 101 receptions. In four NFL seasons, Marshall has 4,019 yards receiving with 327 catches.

In a Week 14 loss, Marshall set a single-game NFL record with 21 catches against the Colts.

"Last year I handled things totally wrong," Marshall said last week. "I just looked at the business side of things and took things too personally. This year I'm going to remove myself from the situation and let the Broncos decide the direction we're going to go in as an organization."
I'd read the Marshall quotes last week in the SB buildup but didn't think anything of them, since I was generally of the opinion that the most likely "change" Marshall had gone through was simply hiring a better PR guy... but Bowlen's opinions are not dismissed so easily. Especially since Bowlen seems to be taking a much more active role in the organization.
 
Lest anyone accuse me of only delivering the facts that support my own argument, there's a new article up on ESPN about Brandon Marshall:

After a tumultuous end to a promising-turned-disappointing season for the Broncos, owner Pat Bowlen and receiver Brandon Marshall fell onto the same page last week, both saying they'd like the two-time Pro Bowler back with the team next season.

"I think Brandon is going through a maturing process," Bowlen said, according to The Denver Post. "Personally, I saw change in his personality and approach to things [this season]. He didn't have the same sort of attitude and anxiety that he's had. I personally would like to see him stay. And there's still a good possibility that could happen."

Marshall, who is set to become an unrestricted free agent this offseason, would become a restricted free agent if the owners and players' union don't strike a labor agreement by March 5, giving the Broncos an upper hand should they want to sign him.

"Now, if the head coach sits down and says no, I want to trade him, or I've got a deal that's going to be beneficial to the club, I don't think I'm going to override him," Bowlen said Saturday of Broncos coach Josh McDaniels, according to the newspaper.

McDaniels benched Marshall for the regular-season finale after he was late to a scheduled therapy session for treatment of a hamstring injury the team already believed he was exaggerating.

But Marshall and the Broncos were at odds even before the season began.

Marshall didn't participate in a mandatory June minicamp and was suspended by the team for a week shortly before the season started after "detrimental" conduct during a practice in which he batted away a pass thrown to him, punted a ball instead of handing it to a ball boy and at one point walked as the rest of the team ran in a pre-practice warmup.

"Learning from last year and last offseason, I approached things unprofessional," Marshall said Thursday at the Super Bowl XLIV media center, according to The Post. "This offseason I'm just going to go with the flow and just go in whatever direction the Broncos want to go."

The Broncos started the season with six straight wins before going 2-8 and failing to gain a playoff berth.

Marshall finished with 1,120 yards on 101 receptions. In four NFL seasons, Marshall has 4,019 yards receiving with 327 catches.

In a Week 14 loss, Marshall set a single-game NFL record with 21 catches against the Colts.

"Last year I handled things totally wrong," Marshall said last week. "I just looked at the business side of things and took things too personally. This year I'm going to remove myself from the situation and let the Broncos decide the direction we're going to go in as an organization."
I'd read the Marshall quotes last week in the SB buildup but didn't think anything of them, since I was generally of the opinion that the most likely "change" Marshall had gone through was simply hiring a better PR guy... but Bowlen's opinions are not dismissed so easily. Especially since Bowlen seems to be taking a much more active role in the organization.
He was active in the Cutler fiasco too. Cutler wanted out and he got his wish. The Bronco's need Marshall the player not Marshall the Asst. GM. If the guy can get his emotions under control, he doesn't have to totally suppress them, the team will be MUCH better off.

 
He was active in the Cutler fiasco too. Cutler wanted out and he got his wish. The Bronco's need Marshall the player not Marshall the Asst. GM. If the guy can get his emotions under control, he doesn't have to totally suppress them, the team will be MUCH better off.
Agreed. Whether he's overrated or overused (no WR should ever be targeted 25+ times in a single game, period) or a "knucklehead", he's a hell of a player and the team is far better off with him than it is without him. I'm a strong believer that "addition by subtraction" is nothing more than a bunch of hogwash that jaded fans sell themselves to keep from crying after losing an awesome player. Remember how Minnesota fans once convinced themselves that Randy Moss for Troy Williamson and Napolean Harris was "addition by subtraction"? There's addition by addition and subtraction by subtraction, but in football there's no such thing as "addition by subtraction" or "subtraction by addition" (the only exception being when a player's bloated contract has a bigger impact on the team than the player himself, in which case it's addition not by the subtraction of the player, but by the addition of the cap space to sign better players).To that end, whether I want him on my fantasy team or not, I definitely hope he stays a Bronco. I'd much rather see McDaniels go than Marshall.
 
He was active in the Cutler fiasco too. Cutler wanted out and he got his wish. The Bronco's need Marshall the player not Marshall the Asst. GM. If the guy can get his emotions under control, he doesn't have to totally suppress them, the team will be MUCH better off.
Agreed. Whether he's overrated or overused (no WR should ever be targeted 25+ times in a single game, period) or a "knucklehead", he's a hell of a player and the team is far better off with him than it is without him. I'm a strong believer that "addition by subtraction" is nothing more than a bunch of hogwash that jaded fans sell themselves to keep from crying after losing an awesome player. Remember how Minnesota fans once convinced themselves that Randy Moss for Troy Williamson and Napolean Harris was "addition by subtraction"? There's addition by addition and subtraction by subtraction, but in football there's no such thing as "addition by subtraction" or "subtraction by addition" (the only exception being when a player's bloated contract has a bigger impact on the team than the player himself, in which case it's addition not by the subtraction of the player, but by the addition of the cap space to sign better players).To that end, whether I want him on my fantasy team or not, I definitely hope he stays a Bronco. I'd much rather see McDaniels go than Marshall.
You're going to have to wait a while to see that happen. Josh gets at least two more years.
 
He was active in the Cutler fiasco too. Cutler wanted out and he got his wish. The Bronco's need Marshall the player not Marshall the Asst. GM. If the guy can get his emotions under control, he doesn't have to totally suppress them, the team will be MUCH better off.
Agreed. Whether he's overrated or overused (no WR should ever be targeted 25+ times in a single game, period) or a "knucklehead", he's a hell of a player and the team is far better off with him than it is without him. I'm a strong believer that "addition by subtraction" is nothing more than a bunch of hogwash that jaded fans sell themselves to keep from crying after losing an awesome player. Remember how Minnesota fans once convinced themselves that Randy Moss for Troy Williamson and Napolean Harris was "addition by subtraction"? There's addition by addition and subtraction by subtraction, but in football there's no such thing as "addition by subtraction" or "subtraction by addition" (the only exception being when a player's bloated contract has a bigger impact on the team than the player himself, in which case it's addition not by the subtraction of the player, but by the addition of the cap space to sign better players).To that end, whether I want him on my fantasy team or not, I definitely hope he stays a Bronco. I'd much rather see McDaniels go than Marshall.
You're going to have to wait a while to see that happen. Josh gets at least two more years.
Given how Denver collapsed after that initial start I doubt he McFool has two years. If Denver doesn't make the playoffs this year I would bet you anything he is history.
 

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