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Jermichael Finley, TE, Green Bay Packers (1 Viewer)

your same argument could (and probably was) have been made regarding chris johnson last off season. if i had projected him going over 2k yards and 14 TD's i suspect you'd be in here telling me that only 5 RB's have ever done that (gone 2k) and that its an overly agressive projection, he's never come close to that in previous seasons, and it's just not going to happen.... however there's now 6 RB's who have ecliped 2k in a single season.
Sure. Likewise, if anyone had projected Priest Holmes, Shaun Alexander, LaDainian Tomlinson, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, or Randy Moss to break their respective TD records, I would have said those were incredibly aggressive projections, too. If someone had predicted the 2007 Patriots would have won their first 18 games, I'd say that was a ludicrously aggressive prediction. And you know what? I would have been right. Aggressive is not a synonym for incorrect, nor is it a synonym for impossible. Aggressive simply means that there is a large leap of faith involved, or that there is a low (but still non-zero) probability of attaining the totals projected. Aggressive projections are risky projections. Sometimes risky projections are necessary if you want to win (the only thing a "risk-free" philosophy assures you is a 6th place finish), but let's not misrepresent the level of risk inherent in some of the projections being posted here.
:wolf: Hard to say it much better than that when thinking through projections and what is reasonable vs. aggressive (or maybe very risky).

I don’t think projecting Finely for 1000+ yards and 10+ TDs is impossible for him to achieve, but it is improbable. –No denying, on my part, that Finley has incredible upside though.

One other issue at hand with projections of single players at a time, imo, is that they are often done with little-to-no context within history (as touched on a few times by SSOG in this thread) or within the parameters of what a team is likely to produce as a whole. And I am definitely guilty of this from time to time.

If a person is projecting Finley to have 1250 yards and 12 TDs, for example, what is left for the other GB receiving targets… or is Rodgers simply going to throw for 5,500 yards and 45 TDs in 2010? Often times when doing a projection for a single player, I think we fail to look at the larger picture and simply say, “I think this guy is a stud and will have a big year” (and then just throw out some numbers a stud could produce). While this is an absolutely fine thought to have, if we look at a player without any real context, our projections may not be too meaningful.

Now I realize that doing projections for the entire league isn’t realistic for must of us, but I am just making the point that sometimes these things are largely overlooked in the player projection threads.

 
Aren't you two just arguing semantics here? The original statement was this: "If you presume that the second half of 2009 is more likely the way he will be used in 2010 (and every indication is that it is) that would conservatively pencil out to about 90 catches for 1000 yards and 8 TDs..."

I interpreted that to mean, if you agree that next season will resemble the second half of last season (which is a fairly big assumption admittedly), it would make some sense to double his stats from the last 8 games played. Instead of doing that, he rounded down slightly, which is more conservative (given the assumptions) than just doubling or even more than doubling. I don't think he was calling his projections themselves conservative.

It would be like saying Miles Austin would've had 1650 yards and 13.33 TDs last season if you only counted his last 12 games and projected them out to the full 16, but instead of projecting him to do that, you say he'll get 1500 yards and 11 TDs. The numbers themselves aren't conservative, but they are in the context of the methodology.

Does that make any sense? :mellow:

 
Reading some of the projections in this thread, I think that If I owned Finley and had another solid TE behind him, I'd be shopping Finley a little bit… looking for an owner thinking he is going to go for 1000 and 10 this year. -I'm not saying those type of numbers are impossible, as the guy has a lot of talent and a great QB, but those numbers simply aren't probable, imo.
In the first 6 games of 2009, he avereaged 2.83 catches/games for 260 yards and 1 TD. After coming back, over the final 8 games (the 6 regular season and two playoff games) he averaged 6 catches/game for 575 yards and 4 TDs. If you presume that the second half of 2009 is more likely the way he will be used in 2010 (and every indication is that it is) that would conservatively pencil out to about 90 catches for 1000 yards and 8 TDs - which is what I would project him at, as I don't presume injury.
I would not term it a conservative prediction but I do tend to agree with a lot of your thought process and I'd put his projection fairly close to what you have listed.

Several ways to look at it and let me say in advance I'm counting his playoff game in my analysis. Early in the year he was not used as often as Donald Lee was and even had one game were the got zero targets, another game were he got 1 target and another game were he got one target due to injury. So 2 targets in 3 games which I think we can all agree won't happen to Finley again next year unless he keeps exiting games in the first quarter. So using the entire 14 games he played last year he averaged 4.35 catches per game which put's him at a 70 catch season pace, for 954 yards and 6 TD's. To me that's his floor for a 16 game season when you see he had that kind of pace last year despite having almost 3 zero games.

Now from there we can play with stats which I don't do to prove a point but to try and analyze a player. If I throw what I view as an anomaly which is the two 1 target games and zero target game his numbers spike up considerably. Now we are talking about a guy who averages 5.36 catches per game putting him on an 85 catch pace for just over 1,182 yards and 7TD's. This is very close to what you project and pretty much right around were I'd project him as well.

Playing with stats does not always work out but I saw nothing in his performance that was out of the range. For instance his production was not based on an inordinate amount of TD's and while he had some nice games he was pretty consistent and his numbers were not IMO overly inflated by a single great fantasy game or two . For the most part he was consistent. Really everything is in place to point to him improving on his per game totals. He won't have 3 games were he combines for 2 targets, he is saying and acting as if he's matured, he stands a good chance to be healthier and Mcarthy has stated he would be more involved in the offense.

Other than analyzing his stats and what he did last year I just think his talent jumps out at you when you watch him play. The only concern I have with him at all is the uneasiness over reports his bothersome knee is still not 100%.

 
Aren't you two just arguing semantics here? The original statement was this: "If you presume that the second half of 2009 is more likely the way he will be used in 2010 (and every indication is that it is) that would conservatively pencil out to about 90 catches for 1000 yards and 8 TDs..." I interpreted that to mean, if you agree that next season will resemble the second half of last season (which is a fairly big assumption admittedly), it would make some sense to double his stats from the last 8 games played. Instead of doing that, he rounded down slightly, which is more conservative (given the assumptions) than just doubling or even more than doubling. I don't think he was calling his projections themselves conservative. It would be like saying Miles Austin would've had 1650 yards and 13.33 TDs last season if you only counted his last 12 games and projected them out to the full 16, but instead of projecting him to do that, you say he'll get 1500 yards and 11 TDs. The numbers themselves aren't conservative, but they are in the context of the methodology.Does that make any sense? :goodposting:
It does make sense, and I definitely don't want it to seem like I'm picking on any individual poster around here. Like I said, I think 1000/8 is a realistically achievable projection, albeit higher than I'd project Finley (I'd put him more in the 800-900/6-8 range). I'm just trying to be a bit of a wet blanket over the optimistic blaze before it starts spreading out of control.Also, I really want to emphasize it again, but I've never seen any analysis that supports the idea that players who finish a season hot are any more likely to carry that success into the next season. In every data set I've seen, full-season stats hold more predictive power than 1st half/2nd half splits. As I said, it seems a bit counter-intuitive because there are so many commonsense theories as to why we'd expect the numbers to carry over, but the reality is that most hot streaks to end the season are just garden variety hot streaks that, by some fluke, happened to crop up in games late in the season rather than in games early in the season or in the middle of the season.One other point. I was going to reinforce that last point by finding some other hot streaks that TEs have gone on in recent years when I noticed something surprising. I think a lot of people here are overestimating Finley's hot streak. People think of him as one of the hottest TEs in the league over the end of the season, but the reality is that he was EIGHTH in fantasy scoring among TEs from week 10 to week 17, behind Gates/Vernon/Clark (no surprises there)... but also behind Brent Celek, Jason Witten, Visanthe Shiancoe, and FRED DAVIS (!!!). I kid you not. Now, obviously this analysis doesn't include his playoff game... but even if you throw that into the mix, Finley averaged 9.06 ppg over his last 9 games. That would have ranked as the 4th best PPG figure from week 10-17, behind Gates/Vernon/Clark and... Brent Celek, from week 10-17, also averaged 9.06 ppg (actually, Celek averaged a few thousandths of a point higher than Finley). And Celek has a longer track record of success, too. Everyone who thinks Finley will be a top-5 TE, you have to remember that in order to do it, he needs to beat out one of Gates, Witten, Clark, Vernon, or Celek. Plus Owen Daniels (who was scorching last season before getting hurt), Tony Gonzalez, Sgt. Kellen Winslow II, etc. It's certainly within his capabilities, but that doesn't mean it's not a tough row to hoe.To be honest, it surprised me a bit just how quiet his "hot streak" was, relatively speaking. I thought of Celek as a guy who was consistently good-but-not-great, while I was thinking of Finley who was a real unstoppable difference maker down the stretch. Perception is a funny thing sometimes.
 
I think the reason people are using the 2nd half splits for Finley in their projections isn't necessarily because it was a hot streak, but because it was his longest stretch of injury-free games. He missed a bunch of games earlier in the season, and left in the 1st qtr. of another. He actually wasn't 100% healthy all season, but at least after he came back he played every game, so it makes a little more sense to look at those games IMO.

 
Aren't you two just arguing semantics here? The original statement was this: "If you presume that the second half of 2009 is more likely the way he will be used in 2010 (and every indication is that it is) that would conservatively pencil out to about 90 catches for 1000 yards and 8 TDs..."

I interpreted that to mean, if you agree that next season will resemble the second half of last season (which is a fairly big assumption admittedly), it would make some sense to double his stats from the last 8 games played. Instead of doing that, he rounded down slightly, which is more conservative (given the assumptions) than just doubling or even more than doubling. I don't think he was calling his projections themselves conservative.

It would be like saying Miles Austin would've had 1650 yards and 13.33 TDs last season if you only counted his last 12 games and projected them out to the full 16, but instead of projecting him to do that, you say he'll get 1500 yards and 11 TDs. The numbers themselves aren't conservative, but they are in the context of the methodology.

Does that make any sense? :shrug:
It does make sense, and I definitely don't want it to seem like I'm picking on any individual poster around here. Like I said, I think 1000/8 is a realistically achievable projection, albeit higher than I'd project Finley (I'd put him more in the 800-900/6-8 range). I'm just trying to be a bit of a wet blanket over the optimistic blaze before it starts spreading out of control.Also, I really want to emphasize it again, but I've never seen any analysis that supports the idea that players who finish a season hot are any more likely to carry that success into the next season. In every data set I've seen, full-season stats hold more predictive power than 1st half/2nd half splits. As I said, it seems a bit counter-intuitive because there are so many commonsense theories as to why we'd expect the numbers to carry over, but the reality is that most hot streaks to end the season are just garden variety hot streaks that, by some fluke, happened to crop up in games late in the season rather than in games early in the season or in the middle of the season.

One other point. I was going to reinforce that last point by finding some other hot streaks that TEs have gone on in recent years when I noticed something surprising. I think a lot of people here are overestimating Finley's hot streak. People think of him as one of the hottest TEs in the league over the end of the season, but the reality is that he was EIGHTH in fantasy scoring among TEs from week 10 to week 17, behind Gates/Vernon/Clark (no surprises there)... but also behind Brent Celek, Jason Witten, Visanthe Shiancoe, and FRED DAVIS (!!!). I kid you not. Now, obviously this analysis doesn't include his playoff game... but even if you throw that into the mix, Finley averaged 9.06 ppg over his last 9 games. That would have ranked as the 4th best PPG figure from week 10-17, behind Gates/Vernon/Clark and... Brent Celek, from week 10-17, also averaged 9.06 ppg (actually, Celek averaged a few thousandths of a point higher than Finley). And Celek has a longer track record of success, too. Everyone who thinks Finley will be a top-5 TE, you have to remember that in order to do it, he needs to beat out one of Gates, Witten, Clark, Vernon, or Celek. Plus Owen Daniels (who was scorching last season before getting hurt), Tony Gonzalez, Sgt. Kellen Winslow II, etc. It's certainly within his capabilities, but that doesn't mean it's not a tough row to hoe.

To be honest, it surprised me a bit just how quiet his "hot streak" was, relatively speaking. I thought of Celek as a guy who was consistently good-but-not-great, while I was thinking of Finley who was a real unstoppable difference maker down the stretch. Perception is a funny thing sometimes.
The "hot streak" has much less to do with #'s and more to do with this: Finley in 2009

That, and the how Rodgers started locking onto him, especially in the playoffs, THAT is why he's getting the love he is.

 
Aren't you two just arguing semantics here? The original statement was this: "If you presume that the second half of 2009 is more likely the way he will be used in 2010 (and every indication is that it is) that would conservatively pencil out to about 90 catches for 1000 yards and 8 TDs..."

I interpreted that to mean, if you agree that next season will resemble the second half of last season (which is a fairly big assumption admittedly), it would make some sense to double his stats from the last 8 games played. Instead of doing that, he rounded down slightly, which is more conservative (given the assumptions) than just doubling or even more than doubling. I don't think he was calling his projections themselves conservative.

It would be like saying Miles Austin would've had 1650 yards and 13.33 TDs last season if you only counted his last 12 games and projected them out to the full 16, but instead of projecting him to do that, you say he'll get 1500 yards and 11 TDs. The numbers themselves aren't conservative, but they are in the context of the methodology.

Does that make any sense? :rolleyes:
It does make sense, and I definitely don't want it to seem like I'm picking on any individual poster around here. Like I said, I think 1000/8 is a realistically achievable projection, albeit higher than I'd project Finley (I'd put him more in the 800-900/6-8 range). I'm just trying to be a bit of a wet blanket over the optimistic blaze before it starts spreading out of control.Also, I really want to emphasize it again, but I've never seen any analysis that supports the idea that players who finish a season hot are any more likely to carry that success into the next season. In every data set I've seen, full-season stats hold more predictive power than 1st half/2nd half splits. As I said, it seems a bit counter-intuitive because there are so many commonsense theories as to why we'd expect the numbers to carry over, but the reality is that most hot streaks to end the season are just garden variety hot streaks that, by some fluke, happened to crop up in games late in the season rather than in games early in the season or in the middle of the season.

One other point. I was going to reinforce that last point by finding some other hot streaks that TEs have gone on in recent years when I noticed something surprising. I think a lot of people here are overestimating Finley's hot streak. People think of him as one of the hottest TEs in the league over the end of the season, but the reality is that he was EIGHTH in fantasy scoring among TEs from week 10 to week 17, behind Gates/Vernon/Clark (no surprises there)... but also behind Brent Celek, Jason Witten, Visanthe Shiancoe, and FRED DAVIS (!!!). I kid you not. Now, obviously this analysis doesn't include his playoff game... but even if you throw that into the mix, Finley averaged 9.06 ppg over his last 9 games. That would have ranked as the 4th best PPG figure from week 10-17, behind Gates/Vernon/Clark and... Brent Celek, from week 10-17, also averaged 9.06 ppg (actually, Celek averaged a few thousandths of a point higher than Finley). And Celek has a longer track record of success, too. Everyone who thinks Finley will be a top-5 TE, you have to remember that in order to do it, he needs to beat out one of Gates, Witten, Clark, Vernon, or Celek. Plus Owen Daniels (who was scorching last season before getting hurt), Tony Gonzalez, Sgt. Kellen Winslow II, etc. It's certainly within his capabilities, but that doesn't mean it's not a tough row to hoe.

To be honest, it surprised me a bit just how quiet his "hot streak" was, relatively speaking. I thought of Celek as a guy who was consistently good-but-not-great, while I was thinking of Finley who was a real unstoppable difference maker down the stretch. Perception is a funny thing sometimes.
The "hot streak" has much less to do with #'s and more to do with this: Finley in 2009

That, and the how Rodgers started locking onto him, especially in the playoffs, THAT is why he's getting the love he is.
Oh, there was one other thing I forgot. Red zone targets. Finley was 4th among TEs in 2009 in red zone targets during the regular season - a season in which, for all intents and purposes he missed 4 games. Even with 4 games missed, he had more RZ targets than VD, Gates, Clark and many others. Only Gonzo, Celek and Greg Olsen had more RZ targets than he did.
 
wtf is going on in this thread.

I love Finley, but "conservative" projections of 1k+ yards/10+ TD's are beyond ridiculous.

Go ahead and project him for that, but please stop calling it conservative.

 
Oh, there was one other thing I forgot. Red zone targets. Finley was 4th among TEs in 2009 in red zone targets during the regular season - a season in which, for all intents and purposes he missed 4 games. Even with 4 games missed, he had more RZ targets than VD, Gates, Clark and many others. Only Gonzo, Celek and Greg Olsen had more RZ targets than he did.
Pop Quiz:#1- How many of the top 25 WRs/TEs in red zone targets from 2008 can you name? #2- How many of the top 25 WRs/TEs in red zone targets in 2008 managed to repeat the feat in 2009?Answers:#1- Fitzgerald, Andre, Marshall, Lance Moore, Kevin Walter, Boldin, Coles, Moss, Gonzo, Welker, Dallas Clark, Hines Ward, Kevin Boss, Brandon Stokley, Dwayne Bowe, Santana Moss, Marvin Harrison, Antonio Gates, Isaac Bruce, Roddy White, Terrell Owens, Greg Olsen, L.J. Smith, Braylon Edwards, Jerricho Cotchery#2- 9A list of the repeaters, with their red zone target rank in 2008 and 2009 in parenthesesFitzgerald (1, 10)Andre (2, 3)Marshall (3, 1)Moss (8, 8)Gonzo (9, 2)Welker (10, 21)Ward (12, 16)Roddy (20, 14)Olsen (22, 4)For the record, Finley was tied for 17th in red zone targets last year.This data should illustrate two things very well. First off, being among the league leaders in red zone targets is not a special accomplishment. Lance Moore and Kevin Walter were both top 5 red zone targets in 2008. A substantial portion of the WRs on that list were truly terrible. Second off, there's very little correlation between red zone targets in year N and red zone targets in year N+1. The guys who get an absurd amount of targets every year (Fitz, Andre, Marshall, Moss, Welker) wind up getting an absurd amount of red zone targets every year, too. For anyone else, red zone targets are a total crapshoot with essentially no predictive power.
 
Oh, there was one other thing I forgot. Red zone targets. Finley was 4th among TEs in 2009 in red zone targets during the regular season - a season in which, for all intents and purposes he missed 4 games. Even with 4 games missed, he had more RZ targets than VD, Gates, Clark and many others. Only Gonzo, Celek and Greg Olsen had more RZ targets than he did.
Pop Quiz:#1- How many of the top 25 WRs/TEs in red zone targets from 2008 can you name? #2- How many of the top 25 WRs/TEs in red zone targets in 2008 managed to repeat the feat in 2009?Answers:#1- Fitzgerald, Andre, Marshall, Lance Moore, Kevin Walter, Boldin, Coles, Moss, Gonzo, Welker, Dallas Clark, Hines Ward, Kevin Boss, Brandon Stokley, Dwayne Bowe, Santana Moss, Marvin Harrison, Antonio Gates, Isaac Bruce, Roddy White, Terrell Owens, Greg Olsen, L.J. Smith, Braylon Edwards, Jerricho Cotchery#2- 9A list of the repeaters, with their red zone target rank in 2008 and 2009 in parenthesesFitzgerald (1, 10)Andre (2, 3)Marshall (3, 1)Moss (8, 8)Gonzo (9, 2)Welker (10, 21)Ward (12, 16)Roddy (20, 14)Olsen (22, 4)For the record, Finley was tied for 17th in red zone targets last year.This data should illustrate two things very well. First off, being among the league leaders in red zone targets is not a special accomplishment. Lance Moore and Kevin Walter were both top 5 red zone targets in 2008. A substantial portion of the WRs on that list were truly terrible. Second off, there's very little correlation between red zone targets in year N and red zone targets in year N+1. The guys who get an absurd amount of targets every year (Fitz, Andre, Marshall, Moss, Welker) wind up getting an absurd amount of red zone targets every year, too. For anyone else, red zone targets are a total crapshoot with essentially no predictive power.
From watching that video that was posted it seems to me that Finley lines up at WR for a majority of those big plays. If that's the case, I don't see why he wouldn't be able to put up huge numbers the upcoming season w/ Rogers locking on to him. It reminds me of when Colston came into the league and he was classified as a WR/TE and he was just absolutely at killing it at the TE position although he lined up wide.
 
My My My....

The hot air that is being generated. Reminded of Colston, another has him #2 overall TE. Wow....

He's not ready for the big stage. He will tease you with a big game and be the #2 TE on his own team on others.

There must be at least one dissenting vote to this circle session you are all having.

tsk tsk tsk.... go ahead and take him. I'll just have to settle for Gates. sigh.

 
Oh, there was one other thing I forgot. Red zone targets. Finley was 4th among TEs in 2009 in red zone targets during the regular season - a season in which, for all intents and purposes he missed 4 games. Even with 4 games missed, he had more RZ targets than VD, Gates, Clark and many others. Only Gonzo, Celek and Greg Olsen had more RZ targets than he did.
Pop Quiz:#1- How many of the top 10 TEs in red zone targets from 2008 can you name? #2- How many of the top 10 TEs in red zone targets in 2008 managed to repeat the feat in 2009?Answers:#1- Gonzo, Dallas Clark, Kevin Boss, Antonio Gates, Greg Olsen, L.J. Smith, #2- All except L.J. Smith - who was traded after 2008 and injured in 2009
Oh boy. I toss out TE RZ targets and you have to twist it all into a mess by including WRs too? Why didn't you just include RB RZ touches as well? We can use your premise about 2008 vs. 2009 RZ targets - but let's keep it to TEs, since that is the position Finley actually plays. I agree that WR RZ targets are a crapshoot - but TE RZ targets are a slightly different animal as they can be indicative of game plan, TE usage (i.e. when a team get's down close, do they have their TE block while they run or do they use him as a receiving weapon). To make this simpler to discuss, I simply modified your quote to include only TEs above (I had to stick with your list, as I couldn't find 2008 RZ targets for TEs). I went with top 10 ,as top 25 TEs would be virtually meaningless from a fantasy perspective.Sorry for not being able to include other RZ targets for 2008 - but I am guessing that Shiancoe and Heath Miller - who were both top 10 in 2009 were also fairly high in '08)Obviously high targets are commensurate with high red zone targets - if I guy is good enough to be fed the ball, he's usually good enough to be gotten the ball near the goal line. But with TE's, RZ targets tend to be more consistant year to year than WRs. Partly for the fact that I mentioned (i.e. with TEs they involve game plan/scheme and player mismatches that the top TEs present).I get that there are people who are not as high on Finley as others - but there is really no need to try to twist stats around to say things they don't say.
 
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My My My....The hot air that is being generated. Reminded of Colston, another has him #2 overall TE. Wow....He's not ready for the big stage. He will tease you with a big game and be the #2 TE on his own team on others. There must be at least one dissenting vote to this circle session you are all having.tsk tsk tsk.... go ahead and take him. I'll just have to settle for Gates. sigh.
This post doesn't make any sense. Reminds you of Colston how? Doesn't really seem like a bad thing...Glad you think he's not ready for the big stage. Got any reasons why? Perhaps come playoff time.. you know.. the 'big stage'.. he played poorly? And if you honestly think he is the #2 TE on his own team right now you are so far out of touch you shouldn't even be commenting on this topic.Last year, I bet you were the guy who passed on Chris Johnson to draft Tomlinson.
 
Seems like a lot of people in here are waiting for Finley to prove it over a longer period of time. Problem is, you aren't getting him after that happens. You may still be able to get him now if an owner is unsure about him. I'm not going to overly analyze his stats in the past, I am going to trust my eyes. The kid is THE TE to own in dynasty. The most athletically gifted TE in the league, playing for one of the top offenses with a QB who has an obvious rapport with him. Put me down for.....

85 rec/1050 yards/9 TD's

 
Raiderfan32904 said:
My My My....

The hot air that is being generated. Reminded of Colston, another has him #2 overall TE. Wow....

He's not ready for the big stage. He will tease you with a big game and be the #2 TE on his own team on others.

There must be at least one dissenting vote to this circle session you are all having.

tsk tsk tsk.... go ahead and take him. I'll just have to settle for Gates. sigh.
X
Finley to start, McCarthy says

Jermichael Finley's future with the Green Bay Packers couldn't be filled with more promise.

Donald Lee's future will include a heavy dose of special teams.

Coach Mike McCarthy made that clear Sunday when he officially made Finley the starter at tight end, a status Lee had held for the past three seasons.

"Yes, he (Finley) is (the starter)," McCarthy said during the National Football League scouting combine. "He played very well. What's exciting about him, he gets better every week."

Set to turn 23 in late March, Finley has Pro Bowl ability. The Texas product proved that last season when he had 835 receiving yards in 13 regular-season and one playoff game.

During the regular season, Finley played 511 snaps, or 39.3 per game. Lee played 727 snaps, an average of 45.4.

After solid seasons in 2007 and '08, Lee slipped in '09. He dropped eight of 55 targeted passes, a drop percentage of 14.6% that was the worst of his career and on the team.

Lee, who will be 30 before next season, remains relatively affordable with a $2 million base salary even though his days as a starter are past. Spencer Havner is No. 3.

"I like Donald," said McCarthy. "Jermichael has a chance to be a special player, but you tend to forget Donald Lee is a hell of a special-teams player. In the number of reps he played he played very well."

Lee participated in 94 plays on special teams, 25 more than Finley.

"We made Donald such an exclusive starter that we took him off a lot of special teams," McCarthy said. "I'd like to get him back on special teams."

As a former starter, Lee probably won't be delighted to learn of the Packers' plans for him. But with McCarthy determined to improve his 31st-ranked special teams he might not be the only veteran asked to help more in that area.
 
He was only a part time player last year when healthy and still put up #1 TE numbers. He will be the starter this year, and will be on the field more. Barring injuries, i could easily see him contending for the #1 TE. I got frustrated as a Jennings owner last year because it almost seemed Rodgers used Finley as his #1 target. He should likely be at least the #2 target this year on an offense that will throw for more than 4000 yards and 30 TD's.

81 rec, 1040 yards, 11 TD's
Barring injury to Rodgers or Finley, I see this as the high range of Finley's floor. His ceiling is closer to 15 TDs and much more yardage if not more receptions.
So Finley's floor is one of the best years ever for a TE. I like the guy but I dunno, I'd put him somewhere around 65, 840, 7 TDs. Now he could bust out and put up Antonio Gates in his prime type numbers, but I don't think that's a probability.
Seems about right in my opinion, particularly receptions and total yards. His touchdown total is a bit hard to predict I think. I think his receptions will be lower then what some people in this thread are projecting simply because there are so many other options in that offense.
 
Oh boy. I toss out TE RZ targets and you have to twist it all into a mess by including WRs too? Why didn't you just include RB RZ touches as well? We can use your premise about 2008 vs. 2009 RZ targets - but let's keep it to TEs, since that is the position Finley actually plays. I agree that WR RZ targets are a crapshoot - but TE RZ targets are a slightly different animal as they can be indicative of game plan, TE usage (i.e. when a team get's down close, do they have their TE block while they run or do they use him as a receiving weapon). To make this simpler to discuss, I simply modified your quote to include only TEs above (I had to stick with your list, as I couldn't find 2008 RZ targets for TEs). I went with top 10 ,as top 25 TEs would be virtually meaningless from a fantasy perspective.Sorry for not being able to include other RZ targets for 2008 - but I am guessing that Shiancoe and Heath Miller - who were both top 10 in 2009 were also fairly high in '08)Obviously high targets are commensurate with high red zone targets - if I guy is good enough to be fed the ball, he's usually good enough to be gotten the ball near the goal line. But with TE's, RZ targets tend to be more consistant year to year than WRs. Partly for the fact that I mentioned (i.e. with TEs they involve game plan/scheme and player mismatches that the top TEs present).I get that there are people who are not as high on Finley as others - but there is really no need to try to twist stats around to say things they don't say.
I added WRs because (a) I wanted a more robust sample and (b) I don't see any fundamental difference between WRs and TEs in the red zone. I'm sorry, I don't. Sure, blocking TEs won't get theirs... but blocking TEs won't get theirs ANYWHERE. If anything, I felt I was being very generous by using the top 25 (note: I was originally going to use the top 20, but there was a 6-way tie for 20th). Anyone who fails to rank in the top 25 has to be considered a second option. What's the point of comparing Finley (a guy you obviously think is a primary option) with TEs who are the 2nd or 3rd option on their own team? But, hey, if that's what you want to do, I can absolutely oblige. I would never want anyone to think that I was purposely manipulating the data. I have never intentionally twisted stats.Looking up TE red zone targets, I notice there's a 4-way tie for 10th in 2009, which means I'm forced to give you the top 13 in 2009. As a result, I went with the top 12 in 2008 so the data sets are more comparable (I would have with the top 13, but there was a 5-way tie for 13th in 2008- when you're dealing with target totals these low, you get a LOT of ties).2008 top 10-Gonzalez (22)Clark (21)Boss (20)Gates (19)L.J. Smith (17)Olsen (17)Keller (16)Watson (14)Carlson (14)Scaife (12)Zach Miller (11)Fasano (11)2009 top 10-Gonzalez (25)Olsen (24)Celek (24)Miller (17)Finley (17)Shiancoe (16)Boss (15)Clark (14)Fred Davis (14)Gates (13)Vernon (13)Scaife (13)Carlson (13)Repeaters- Gonzo (1st, 1st)Clark (2nd, 8th)Boss (3rd, 7th)Gates (4th, 4-way tie for 10th)Olsen (6th, 2nd)Carlson (9th, 4-way tie for 10th)Scaife (10th, 4-way tie for 10th)Both of my points stand. Lots of terrible players on both of those lists (Bo freaking Scaife?!), lots of turnover. Furthermore, there's not a lot of correlation to TD production, either. You named two guys who are famous for their presence in their red zone, guys who "only catch TDs" (Miller and Shiancoe) and... nope, neither of them appeared on the 2008 list. Vernon Davis just tied the NFL record for TDs by a TE, and he only came in 10th in RZ targets in 2009 (tied for 10th, no less). Gates, another guy famous for his red zone presence, also tied for 10th in RZ targets. On the other end of the spectrum, a lot of guys in the top 10 couldn't score a TD to save their life. Scaife was top 10 in both seasons and has a whopping 3 total TDs to show for it. And keep in mind that "top 12 red zone target among TEs" is a pretty fantastically low threshold. Some teams don't even use TEs, so that basically just means "top 50% in red zone targets". Only two of the top 12 from 2008 finished in the top 6 in 2009- most of them congregated in the 13th-7th "barely above average" range.It's nice that Finley had 17 red zone targets in 2009, but I don't think that's a particularly meaningful statistic for predicting his performance in 2010. Maybe you disagree- if so, that's fine. The data's right there. Draw your own conclusions.
 
SSOG,

I really like your opinions and you've added some great insight and relevant points to this discussion. But you are casting some of us (by that I mean me) in the wrong light.

I said the 80/1000/11 or whatever was the high end of Finley's floor. And I put in the caveats that his and Rodger's health and his off field stuff could easily get in the way.

But barring those issues, he's got a lot of amazing angles lining up for him to score BIG points from the TE position this year.

1. Aaron Rodgers - dude is a flat out stud.

2. New Passing Era - this is debateable if you argue for a return to the mean but it seems we are in a passing era and I've got Rodgers good for 4500+ yds, 30-35 TDs, assuming 16 games played.

3. He's the #1 recieving option. He lines up at WR and slot, not just at TE. This is not quite like the Marcus Colston situation from his rookie year where he played fulltime WR but was listed as a TE on yahoo, but it's headed along those lines. This dude is a freak.

4. He's the #1 red zone option. If he plays 16 games, I think 10 TDs will be easy for this guy. He's a match up nightmare down there and there is no other legit RZ big play WR on this team. The only other big play guy is Jennings and that's not his style.

Thank you for all the insight about the past at the TE position. I mean that sincerly. But this guy has all the stars aligned to breakout bigtime. And that breakout, if it's going to happen, has a very good chance of happening this year. Take that high end of his floor, add about 200-300 more yards and 3 or 4 more scores and you've got the blast off he is capable of. Probable no, but capable. And barring injury to AR or JF or an off-field issue, I'd say he's good for lower end floor of at least 75/900/9.

The biggest key will be TDs. If Vernon Davis can catch 13 TDs from Alex Smith, JF can catch 10 TDs from AR. This is where his blast off upside really lies based on assertion #4 above.

One other legit counter argument that I accept is that defenses will key in more on Mr. Finley, but I think this guy is special and will consistently beat double teams. JMO there. But if you don't buy that, then you can definitely lower all these numbers.

Thank you,

L

 
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I gave up Jeremy Shockey, David Thomas and a 2010 NO 2nd for Jermichael Finley and a 3rd RND GB pick. So to me I'm holding onto him because I don't think I gave up too much. A lot of dynasty rankings have him ranked top 5. But I think top 8 or 10 is more realistic. And thats good enough for me to hold onto.

 
SSOG,

I really like your opinions and you've added some great insight and relevant points to this discussion. But you are casting some of us (by that I mean me) in the wrong light.

I said the 80/1000/11 or whatever was the high end of Finley's floor.
lol what's the floor of his ceiling?ps

from profootballfocus I will list finley's and lee's snaps week by week with pass plays in parentheses (not blocking).

the number after wk # is total offensive snaps, and the blue # is finley's targets.

wk 1 v chi - 58

finley - 36 (18) - 1

lee - 41 (17)

wk 2 v cin - 68

finley - 51 (33) - 7

lee - 29 (17)

wk 3 @stl - 66

finley - 44 (13) - 1

lee - 51 (16)

wk 4 @min - 67

finley - 30 (23) - 7

lee - 44 (27)

wk 6 v det - 80

finley - 51 (25) - 5

lee - 56 (26)

wk 7 @cle - 66

finley - 3 (1) - 1

lee - 66 (22)

wk 8 v min - 72

finley - 0 (0)

lee - 61 (43)

wk 9 @tb - 75

finley - 0 (0)

lee - 52 (26)

wk 10 v dal - 77

finley - 0 (0)

lee - 65 (31)

wk 11 v sf - 82

finley - 57 (34) - 9

lee - 50 (20)

wk 12 @det - 68

finley - 42 (22) - 6

lee - 49 (27)

wk 13 v bal - 78

finley - 48 (31) - 8

lee - 51 (25)

wk 14 @chi - 62

finley - 35 (18) - 7

lee - 38 (10)

wk 15 @pit - 64

finley - 43 (33) - 10

lee - 32 (18)

wk 16 v sea - 69

finley - 36 (21) - 4

lee - 43 (16)

wk 17 @az - 68

finley - 39 (21) - 5

lee - 32 (11)

playoffs @az - 73

finley - 56 (43) - 7

lee - 41 (24)

edit:

first 5 game average - 42 (22) - 4

last 8 game averages - 44 (28) - 7

those latter 7 tgts/game x 16 = 112 (78%) - 34 (8)

again, using pff data, here are leading te targets from 2009 with catch % in parentheses:

and I'll add rz targets in red from kffl (inside the 5)

clark - 129 (78%) - 14 (5)

gonzo - 125 (66%) - 29 (7)

witten - 121 (78%) - 7 (2)

winslow - 117 (66%) - 9 (1)

davis - 116 (67%) - 13 (4)(?)

gates - 110 (72%) - 13 (5)

celek - 106 (72%) - 24 (7) (9 - 89% in each of the 2 kolb games)

daniels - 51 (76%) in 7 games x 16 = 116 (76%) - 25 (5)

looks like he's probably top 8, but I don't think a record season is his floor, and the best picks of those 8 might just be whoever gets taken latest.

 
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If you read this thread, and you own Finley, you gotta think trading high is an option.
Ironically enough, I just wound up buying him low in my league. But yeah, if I can find anyone who'll give me Antonio Gates value for Finley, I'll be turning around and flipping him pretty quickly. Otherwise, I'll be thrilled to hold him and see what he does. He's a phenomenal young dynasty TE prospect. He's just not the greatest dynasty TE prospect of the last 30 years, like some of the projections seem to indicate.
 
If you read this thread, and you own Finley, you gotta think trading high is an option.
Ironically enough, I just wound up buying him low in my league. But yeah, if I can find anyone who'll give me Antonio Gates value for Finley, I'll be turning around and flipping him pretty quickly. Otherwise, I'll be thrilled to hold him and see what he does. He's a phenomenal young dynasty TE prospect. He's just not the greatest dynasty TE prospect of the last 30 years, like some of the projections seem to indicate.
I am wondering if some of you guys are even watching the games...Gates has been the TE for the last 5 years, Finley is the Future. If your in a dynasty, "Gates Value" is < Finley Value. I am Happy to say I own him in 5 dynastys
 
If you read this thread, and you own Finley, you gotta think trading high is an option.
Ironically enough, I just wound up buying him low in my league. But yeah, if I can find anyone who'll give me Antonio Gates value for Finley, I'll be turning around and flipping him pretty quickly. Otherwise, I'll be thrilled to hold him and see what he does. He's a phenomenal young dynasty TE prospect. He's just not the greatest dynasty TE prospect of the last 30 years, like some of the projections seem to indicate.
I am wondering if some of you guys are even watching the games...Gates has been the TE for the last 5 years, Finley is the Future. If your in a dynasty, "Gates Value" is < Finley Value. I am Happy to say I own him in 5 dynastys
You know this b/c?????
 
Starting only 10 games, Finley avg 5.5/67/.5Td per game...that's about 88/1,050/8Tds over a full season.

Now, being realistic and also realizing that there are WR3 and WR4 slots that will probably take the next step this season and push for targets, plus the fact that just because a guy does it one year doesn't make him an automatic the next year.

I would project him for soemthing like 70 receptions, 900 yds, and 7 Tds...that makes him a top10 candidate and if you expect more then simply reach a bit to get him. There are a lot of talented TEs this year and depending on your scoring format, I wouldn't reach too far or get married to a TE predraft.

Pro: 70/900/7Td

 
your same argument could (and probably was) have been made regarding chris johnson last off season. if i had projected him going over 2k yards and 14 TD's i suspect you'd be in here telling me that only 5 RB's have ever done that (gone 2k) and that its an overly agressive projection, he's never come close to that in previous seasons, and it's just not going to happen.... however there's now 6 RB's who have ecliped 2k in a single season.
Sure. Likewise, if anyone had projected Priest Holmes, Shaun Alexander, LaDainian Tomlinson, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, or Randy Moss to break their respective TD records, I would have said those were incredibly aggressive projections, too. If someone had predicted the 2007 Patriots would have won their first 18 games, I'd say that was a ludicrously aggressive prediction. And you know what? I would have been right. Aggressive is not a synonym for incorrect, nor is it a synonym for impossible. Aggressive simply means that there is a large leap of faith involved, or that there is a low (but still non-zero) probability of attaining the totals projected. Aggressive projections are risky projections. Sometimes risky projections are necessary if you want to win (the only thing a "risk-free" philosophy assures you is a 6th place finish), but let's not misrepresent the level of risk inherent in some of the projections being posted here.
SSOG is right because he understands prob & statistics. A projection is not an attempt to guess the actual stats that a player will produce in the upcoming season, rather it is the most probable stat line that a player might achieve in the upcoming season. Every player is different. In fact two players can share the same expected value in terms of fantasy points but have a drastically different variance associated with that projection. Also, a player's most probable stat line can have relatively low chance of actually occurring - this would be the case for players with a high variance - maybe someone like Marion Barber, who we are having a hard time figuring out what his exact role will be.This is why when you look at FBG projections you see the top QB weekly projection with something like 1.8 TDs. They understand that there will be a few guys toss 3 TD's that week, but trying to predict who that will be is much less useful than producing a set of projections in terms of expected values. You play the odds with consistency, and you win over the duration of the season.This is why when I do my own "projections" I like to break down 4 or 5 numbers for each players. I make a list of % chance of finishing in the top5, top10, top20, top30, top50. Finley might have a 30% chance of finishing in the top 5, 30% 6 to 10, 25% 11 to 20, 10% 21 to 30, and 5% 30+If you give a value to finishing in each category, like 10 points for a top5, 8 points for 6 to 10, 5 points for 11 to 20, 3 points for 21 to 30 and 1 or 0 for top 50 or something like that.... you get a total score for each player by multiplying the point value of each category by their % chance of finishing there.Its a time consuming process but interesting to look at. It gives you a nice picture of how to weight players that are consistent and players with high upside and low downside, etc
 
footballsavvy said:
your same argument could (and probably was) have been made regarding chris johnson last off season. if i had projected him going over 2k yards and 14 TD's i suspect you'd be in here telling me that only 5 RB's have ever done that (gone 2k) and that its an overly agressive projection, he's never come close to that in previous seasons, and it's just not going to happen.... however there's now 6 RB's who have ecliped 2k in a single season.
Sure. Likewise, if anyone had projected Priest Holmes, Shaun Alexander, LaDainian Tomlinson, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, or Randy Moss to break their respective TD records, I would have said those were incredibly aggressive projections, too. If someone had predicted the 2007 Patriots would have won their first 18 games, I'd say that was a ludicrously aggressive prediction. And you know what? I would have been right. Aggressive is not a synonym for incorrect, nor is it a synonym for impossible. Aggressive simply means that there is a large leap of faith involved, or that there is a low (but still non-zero) probability of attaining the totals projected. Aggressive projections are risky projections. Sometimes risky projections are necessary if you want to win (the only thing a "risk-free" philosophy assures you is a 6th place finish), but let's not misrepresent the level of risk inherent in some of the projections being posted here.
SSOG is right because he understands prob & statistics. A projection is not an attempt to guess the actual stats that a player will produce in the upcoming season, rather it is the most probable stat line that a player might achieve in the upcoming season. Every player is different. In fact two players can share the same expected value in terms of fantasy points but have a drastically different variance associated with that projection. Also, a player's most probable stat line can have relatively low chance of actually occurring - this would be the case for players with a high variance - maybe someone like Marion Barber, who we are having a hard time figuring out what his exact role will be.This is why when you look at FBG projections you see the top QB weekly projection with something like 1.8 TDs. They understand that there will be a few guys toss 3 TD's that week, but trying to predict who that will be is much less useful than producing a set of projections in terms of expected values. You play the odds with consistency, and you win over the duration of the season.This is why when I do my own "projections" I like to break down 4 or 5 numbers for each players. I make a list of % chance of finishing in the top5, top10, top20, top30, top50. Finley might have a 30% chance of finishing in the top 5, 30% 6 to 10, 25% 11 to 20, 10% 21 to 30, and 5% 30+If you give a value to finishing in each category, like 10 points for a top5, 8 points for 6 to 10, 5 points for 11 to 20, 3 points for 21 to 30 and 1 or 0 for top 50 or something like that.... you get a total score for each player by multiplying the point value of each category by their % chance of finishing there.Its a time consuming process but interesting to look at. It gives you a nice picture of how to weight players that are consistent and players with high upside and low downside, etc
Can you do this and share the results with all of us?
 
footballsavvy said:
your same argument could (and probably was) have been made regarding chris johnson last off season. if i had projected him going over 2k yards and 14 TD's i suspect you'd be in here telling me that only 5 RB's have ever done that (gone 2k) and that its an overly agressive projection, he's never come close to that in previous seasons, and it's just not going to happen.... however there's now 6 RB's who have ecliped 2k in a single season.
Sure. Likewise, if anyone had projected Priest Holmes, Shaun Alexander, LaDainian Tomlinson, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, or Randy Moss to break their respective TD records, I would have said those were incredibly aggressive projections, too. If someone had predicted the 2007 Patriots would have won their first 18 games, I'd say that was a ludicrously aggressive prediction. And you know what? I would have been right. Aggressive is not a synonym for incorrect, nor is it a synonym for impossible. Aggressive simply means that there is a large leap of faith involved, or that there is a low (but still non-zero) probability of attaining the totals projected. Aggressive projections are risky projections. Sometimes risky projections are necessary if you want to win (the only thing a "risk-free" philosophy assures you is a 6th place finish), but let's not misrepresent the level of risk inherent in some of the projections being posted here.
SSOG is right because he understands prob & statistics. A projection is not an attempt to guess the actual stats that a player will produce in the upcoming season, rather it is the most probable stat line that a player might achieve in the upcoming season. Every player is different. In fact two players can share the same expected value in terms of fantasy points but have a drastically different variance associated with that projection. Also, a player's most probable stat line can have relatively low chance of actually occurring - this would be the case for players with a high variance - maybe someone like Marion Barber, who we are having a hard time figuring out what his exact role will be.This is why when you look at FBG projections you see the top QB weekly projection with something like 1.8 TDs. They understand that there will be a few guys toss 3 TD's that week, but trying to predict who that will be is much less useful than producing a set of projections in terms of expected values. You play the odds with consistency, and you win over the duration of the season.This is why when I do my own "projections" I like to break down 4 or 5 numbers for each players. I make a list of % chance of finishing in the top5, top10, top20, top30, top50. Finley might have a 30% chance of finishing in the top 5, 30% 6 to 10, 25% 11 to 20, 10% 21 to 30, and 5% 30+If you give a value to finishing in each category, like 10 points for a top5, 8 points for 6 to 10, 5 points for 11 to 20, 3 points for 21 to 30 and 1 or 0 for top 50 or something like that.... you get a total score for each player by multiplying the point value of each category by their % chance of finishing there.Its a time consuming process but interesting to look at. It gives you a nice picture of how to weight players that are consistent and players with high upside and low downside, etc
Can you do this and share the results with all of us?
I'd love to see YOU take a crack at this method MoP. (And footballsavvy, too.)I was just about to bring up a similar idea to Bloom on the Audible. Instead of ranking CJ3 as #1, maybe put a percentage on him finishing #1. Then give each of the other highly ranked backs a similar percentage chance:CJ3 33%ADP 27%MJD 20%Rice 10%Gore 5%Turner 4%Other (Greene, Mendy, SJax) %1Edited to add apology for the thread jackThis would be a great way to talk about players, especially for those in auction leagues.
 
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Longshot88 said:
If you read this thread, and you own Finley, you gotta think trading high is an option.
Ironically enough, I just wound up buying him low in my league. But yeah, if I can find anyone who'll give me Antonio Gates value for Finley, I'll be turning around and flipping him pretty quickly. Otherwise, I'll be thrilled to hold him and see what he does. He's a phenomenal young dynasty TE prospect. He's just not the greatest dynasty TE prospect of the last 30 years, like some of the projections seem to indicate.
I am wondering if some of you guys are even watching the games...Gates has been the TE for the last 5 years, Finley is the Future. If your in a dynasty, "Gates Value" is < Finley Value. I am Happy to say I own him in 5 dynastys
"Gates value" is a top 10 WR. If I can get a top-10 dynasty WR for a guy with 750 career receiving yards, then I'm doing it all day long. This isn't to denigrate Finley just because he only has 750 career receiving yards. I mean, there was a point in time when Tony Gonzalez only had 750 career receiving yards. This is just to say that an asset that has never produced significant numbers for any sustained period of time is a much riskier asset than one that has. It seems like a lot of people are valuing Finley as if that risk wasn't present. Right now, I'm about 50% convinced that Finley is the future. If I can find someone who is 100% convinced, then I can sell Finley for double what he's worth to me.
 
I see Driver's numbers going down and Finley's going up. He is Rodgers favorite target, they work out together in the offseason and Finley is just a freak. DB's or LB's can't match up with him. He is physically the best TE in football.

70-900-10. The TD's could be higher. But I don't see the receptions or yards going higher than that.

 
I see Driver's numbers going down and Finley's going up. He is Rodgers favorite target, they work out together in the offseason and Finley is just a freak. DB's or LB's can't match up with him. He is physically the best TE in football.
No.Physically speaking, Finley isn't all that remarkable. Vernon Davis absolutely demolished him in every single combine drill and measurement (except for height- Finley is an inch and a half taller, although that doesn't matter much when Vernon's posting a 15" better vertical). Dustin Keller measured the same weight and also beat Finley in every drill (three tenths in the 40, 6 reps, 10.5" vert, 14" broad, 0.24 shuttle, 0.27 3-cone). Tony Scheffler is an inch taller, 10 pounds heavier, and beat Finley in most of the drills (the 40, vertical, shuttle, and 3-cone, with Finley holding slight edges on the bench press and broad jump). Brandon Pettigrew put up essentially identical combine numbers despite checking in at 20 pounds heavier than Finley. I'm just looking up names at random, most of these guys weren't considered phenomenal physical specimens entering the league.

To put some numbers to the Vernon Davis comparison... Vernon Davis is 10 pounds heavier, 0.44 seconds (!!!) faster in the 40, posted 13 more reps of 225 lbs, had a 15" higher vertical (!!!!!!!), jumped 11" further in the broad jump, 0.21 seconds faster in the 20 yard shuttle, and 0.15 seconds faster in the 3-cone drill. I mean, his numbers just DESTROY Finley's. It's like Randy Moss vs. Wes Welker, here. Finley's not even in the same zip code as the real physical phenoms like Vernon Davis or Fendi Onobun. His vertical in particular is just putrid for an NFL TE. Speaking entirely from a "physical upside" standpoint, Finley's a mediocre NFL TE and possibly the least physically gifted of the current top dynasty TEs.

Of course, there's a lot more to being an elite NFL performer than raw physical tools. Just ask Jerry Rice.

 
footballsavvy said:
your same argument could (and probably was) have been made regarding chris johnson last off season. if i had projected him going over 2k yards and 14 TD's i suspect you'd be in here telling me that only 5 RB's have ever done that (gone 2k) and that its an overly agressive projection, he's never come close to that in previous seasons, and it's just not going to happen.... however there's now 6 RB's who have ecliped 2k in a single season.
Sure. Likewise, if anyone had projected Priest Holmes, Shaun Alexander, LaDainian Tomlinson, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, or Randy Moss to break their respective TD records, I would have said those were incredibly aggressive projections, too. If someone had predicted the 2007 Patriots would have won their first 18 games, I'd say that was a ludicrously aggressive prediction. And you know what? I would have been right. Aggressive is not a synonym for incorrect, nor is it a synonym for impossible. Aggressive simply means that there is a large leap of faith involved, or that there is a low (but still non-zero) probability of attaining the totals projected. Aggressive projections are risky projections. Sometimes risky projections are necessary if you want to win (the only thing a "risk-free" philosophy assures you is a 6th place finish), but let's not misrepresent the level of risk inherent in some of the projections being posted here.
SSOG is right because he understands prob & statistics. A projection is not an attempt to guess the actual stats that a player will produce in the upcoming season, rather it is the most probable stat line that a player might achieve in the upcoming season. Every player is different. In fact two players can share the same expected value in terms of fantasy points but have a drastically different variance associated with that projection. Also, a player's most probable stat line can have relatively low chance of actually occurring - this would be the case for players with a high variance - maybe someone like Marion Barber, who we are having a hard time figuring out what his exact role will be.This is why when you look at FBG projections you see the top QB weekly projection with something like 1.8 TDs. They understand that there will be a few guys toss 3 TD's that week, but trying to predict who that will be is much less useful than producing a set of projections in terms of expected values. You play the odds with consistency, and you win over the duration of the season.This is why when I do my own "projections" I like to break down 4 or 5 numbers for each players. I make a list of % chance of finishing in the top5, top10, top20, top30, top50. Finley might have a 30% chance of finishing in the top 5, 30% 6 to 10, 25% 11 to 20, 10% 21 to 30, and 5% 30+If you give a value to finishing in each category, like 10 points for a top5, 8 points for 6 to 10, 5 points for 11 to 20, 3 points for 21 to 30 and 1 or 0 for top 50 or something like that.... you get a total score for each player by multiplying the point value of each category by their % chance of finishing there.Its a time consuming process but interesting to look at. It gives you a nice picture of how to weight players that are consistent and players with high upside and low downside, etc
Can you do this and share the results with all of us?
I'd love to see YOU take a crack at this method MoP. (And footballsavvy, too.)I was just about to bring up a similar idea to Bloom on the Audible. Instead of ranking CJ3 as #1, maybe put a percentage on him finishing #1. Then give each of the other highly ranked backs a similar percentage chance:CJ3 33%ADP 27%MJD 20%Rice 10%Gore 5%Turner 4%Other (Greene, Mendy, SJax) %1Edited to add apology for the thread jackThis would be a great way to talk about players, especially for those in auction leagues.
These percentages are too far apart. No way CJ is 32 times more likely to finish #1 over Jackson, or more than 6 times likely to finish #1 over Gore. I would say it would look more like this:CJ 18%MJD 14%AD 13%Gore 9%SJax 7%Tuner 6%Williams 5%Mathews 4%Rice 4%With the next 10-12 backs all between 2-3%, and the rest somewhrere between 1 and 2%.
 
Update:

Jermichael Finley has tendinitis in knee

Jun

9

6/9/2010 8:06:51 PM | More

Lori Nickel of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reports Packers TR Jermichael Finley sat out practice today with tendinitis in his knee.

The tendinitis began bothering Finley mid-season last year but is not considered a major problem at this time.

 
If you read this thread, and you own Finley, you gotta think trading high is an option.
Ironically enough, I just wound up buying him low in my league. But yeah, if I can find anyone who'll give me Antonio Gates value for Finley, I'll be turning around and flipping him pretty quickly. Otherwise, I'll be thrilled to hold him and see what he does. He's a phenomenal young dynasty TE prospect. He's just not the greatest dynasty TE prospect of the last 30 years, like some of the projections seem to indicate.
I am wondering if some of you guys are even watching the games...Gates has been the TE for the last 5 years, Finley is the Future. If your in a dynasty, "Gates Value" is < Finley Value. I am Happy to say I own him in 5 dynastys
You know this b/c?????
Because some folks like to project, instead of playing it safe, and react after. Obviuosly, the key is getting the right players who are about to make a step up, and the the folks who hit more than miss, dominate dynasty leagues.
 
I like Finley alot. But most of that is due to Rodgers. I do think that Vernon Davis is probably more of a "sure thing" though.

 
TaxMan said:
If you read this thread, and you own Finley, you gotta think trading high is an option.
Ironically enough, I just wound up buying him low in my league. But yeah, if I can find anyone who'll give me Antonio Gates value for Finley, I'll be turning around and flipping him pretty quickly. Otherwise, I'll be thrilled to hold him and see what he does. He's a phenomenal young dynasty TE prospect. He's just not the greatest dynasty TE prospect of the last 30 years, like some of the projections seem to indicate.
I am wondering if some of you guys are even watching the games...Gates has been the TE for the last 5 years, Finley is the Future. If your in a dynasty, "Gates Value" is < Finley Value. I am Happy to say I own him in 5 dynastys
You know this b/c?????
Because some folks like to project, instead of playing it safe, and react after. Obviuosly, the key is getting the right players who are about to make a step up, and the the folks who hit more than miss, dominate dynasty leagues.
This is true with redrafts too.

It is the difference between drafting VD last year or this year. VD was going late last year that won't happen this year.

 
TaxMan said:
If you read this thread, and you own Finley, you gotta think trading high is an option.
Ironically enough, I just wound up buying him low in my league. But yeah, if I can find anyone who'll give me Antonio Gates value for Finley, I'll be turning around and flipping him pretty quickly. Otherwise, I'll be thrilled to hold him and see what he does. He's a phenomenal young dynasty TE prospect. He's just not the greatest dynasty TE prospect of the last 30 years, like some of the projections seem to indicate.
I am wondering if some of you guys are even watching the games...Gates has been the TE for the last 5 years, Finley is the Future. If your in a dynasty, "Gates Value" is < Finley Value. I am Happy to say I own him in 5 dynastys
You know this b/c?????
Because some folks like to project, instead of playing it safe, and react after. Obviuosly, the key is getting the right players who are about to make a step up, and the the folks who hit more than miss, dominate dynasty leagues.
Yeah, actually last year was the year to get Finley. He already made his step up. There's no Finley bargains to be had now, not with people projecting these kind of numbers.
 
Jermichael Finley looks like an excellent sell:He was only the 10th most targetted TE in the last 7 weeks of the regular season, so it's not like he'll get more targets than most other TEs. And allthough he is in a explosive offense, there a lot of mouths to feed. Let others take him in round 5-6, and I'll wait for Zach Miller or Schiancoe in the later rounds. He was amazing against Arizona, but let's not go overboard. I say 70 rec, 855 y, and 7 tds. Remember he will get more defensive attention this year as well.
Reasonable points, but according to the data dominator Finley was the 7th most targeted TE from weeks 11-17. But your larger point stands, that Finley might be overvalued by the people that love him and there might be more difference between his perceived value than his actual value.That being said, the kool aid is delicious and refreshing. OH YEAH! :goodposting:
As a happy JFin owner from last year, have to agree with both posts here, and the projection, with the caveat he does have an upside that most other TE do not have.He is really a WR, and this is Y3 for him - almost always the breakout year for the best WR.It is a pass oriented team, and there is no indication of that changingHe has a top 5 QB throwing to him.Personally, my view he will slot in between the #3 and #7 TE for the year, and draft him accordingly - I suspect that someone in your league will see him as the #1 TE and draft accordingly so I think it will be very unlikely he will be on any of my teams
 
Finley(71tar/55/676/5) can easily break records this season. With assurance from McCarthy that Lee(54tar/37/260/1) will be relegated to special teams and spot duty and Havner(7 catches, 4tds) a non-threat to steal any kind of serious work, we can safely assume Finley at least picks up at least as many targets as Lee had and is looking at a floor of 125 targets. With 125 targets I have to think he would put up at least 95/1050/10. This is without factoring in that :

1. The Packers didn't realize until very late in the season that the offense needs to run through Finley as the primary option(he will be the primary option this year).

2. He was inactive due to injury for three games(during this stretch Havner had 3 catches for 3tds and Lee had a drop rate rivaling Heyward-Beys so it's not like the Packers were really giving TE's the same targets as they would have had JF been playing).

3. Finley was forced to motion across the formation and into the backfield at least 50% of the time he was on the field in a shotgun formation(others as well but most often in shotgun) to pick up inevitable free rushers while the Packers were stabilizing their offensive line issues(I wish I could find a breakdown of this and a statistic because as a Packer fan that was waiting for Finley to break out all year, seeing him used as a coverage identifier through motion/blocker rather than downfield threat was unbelievably annoying) and those offensive line issues look to be stabilized heading into 2010 as they were late in 09 as Finley broke out.

4. Finley is used on so many vertical routes from places other than the tight end position he's really more in a hybrid situation the Packers constantly split him out wide between the 20's and at the goal line(he motions in and out of the backfield in as well, even in non-shotgun packages), if you watched late last season he's virtually unstoppable one on one outside vs anyone on a jump ball and recieved the 4th most goal line targets for TE's despite the missed games and under-utilization. Here's a good example of how the packers can use him to run their offense around: http://temple3.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/20...-finley-effect/

5. Finley had some really bad luck not scoring touchdowns on several 10-25 yd passing plays in which he was tripped up or pushed out of bounds near the goal line.

Bottom line is Finley was actually featured and scored quite a bit given his injury, having to fight off a horrid Donald Lee the coaches for some reason didn't demote sooner, being stuck as a blocker oftentimes when in the most pass-friendly situations, and some random bad luck(maybe you could attribute it to his routes being too shallow or something sometimes and will naturally improve as he gets a better feel for each situation on the field). In any event, he won't have any of the aforementioned issues in his way if he stays healthy and that, IMO, equals record-type numbers.

145tar/105/1375/15

 
Wasnt everyone overhyping Greg Olsen this way last offseason too? How did that pan out for guys who drafted him? I know not a fair comparison but still shows that hype doesnt always equal value.

780-7tds.

 
Finley(71tar/55/676/5) can easily break records this season. With assurance from McCarthy that Lee(54tar/37/260/1) will be relegated to special teams and spot duty and Havner(7 catches, 4tds) a non-threat to steal any kind of serious work, we can safely assume Finley at least picks up at least as many targets as Lee had and is looking at a floor of 125 targets. With 125 targets I have to think he would put up at least 95/1050/10. This is without factoring in that :

1. The Packers didn't realize until very late in the season that the offense needs to run through Finley as the primary option(he will be the primary option this year).

2. He was inactive due to injury for three games(during this stretch Havner had 3 catches for 3tds and Lee had a drop rate rivaling Heyward-Beys so it's not like the Packers were really giving TE's the same targets as they would have had JF been playing).

3. Finley was forced to motion across the formation and into the backfield at least 50% of the time he was on the field in a shotgun formation(others as well but most often in shotgun) to pick up inevitable free rushers while the Packers were stabilizing their offensive line issues(I wish I could find a breakdown of this and a statistic because as a Packer fan that was waiting for Finley to break out all year, seeing him used as a coverage identifier through motion/blocker rather than downfield threat was unbelievably annoying) and those offensive line issues look to be stabilized heading into 2010 as they were late in 09 as Finley broke out.

4. Finley is used on so many vertical routes from places other than the tight end position he's really more in a hybrid situation the Packers constantly split him out wide between the 20's and at the goal line(he motions in and out of the backfield in as well, even in non-shotgun packages), if you watched late last season he's virtually unstoppable one on one outside vs anyone on a jump ball and recieved the 4th most goal line targets for TE's despite the missed games and under-utilization. Here's a good example of how the packers can use him to run their offense around: http://temple3.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/20...-finley-effect/

5. Finley had some really bad luck not scoring touchdowns on several 10-25 yd passing plays in which he was tripped up or pushed out of bounds near the goal line.

Bottom line is Finley was actually featured and scored quite a bit given his injury, having to fight off a horrid Donald Lee the coaches for some reason didn't demote sooner, being stuck as a blocker oftentimes when in the most pass-friendly situations, and some random bad luck(maybe you could attribute it to his routes being too shallow or something sometimes and will naturally improve as he gets a better feel for each situation on the field). In any event, he won't have any of the aforementioned issues in his way if he stays healthy and that, IMO, equals record-type numbers.

145tar/105/1375/15
OK - Just so I'm clear, he is going to outproduce IN PPR #'s the #1 WR from last year (AJ) & every RB except I think CJ (& some are expecting a "little" bit of regression from CJ, so maybe FINLEY will be #1 in the ENTIRE NFL in PPR next year - excluding QB)....We've now reached the "internet stock price range" on Finley & it is time to sell to anyone that is willing to pay for that kind of expected production (& they are out there).
 
Bottom line is Finley was actually featured and scored quite a bit given his injury, having to fight off a horrid Donald Lee the coaches for some reason didn't demote sooner, being stuck as a blocker oftentimes when in the most pass-friendly situations, and some random bad luck(maybe you could attribute it to his routes being too shallow or something sometimes and will naturally improve as he gets a better feel for each situation on the field). In any event, he won't have any of the aforementioned issues in his way if he stays healthy and that, IMO, equals record-type numbers.

145tar/105/1375/15
I thought we'd covered this already. Those numbers project out to 227.5 fantasy points (332.5 in PPR). That would be the greatest fantasy season that any tight end in the history of the national football league has ever put up in the history of the national football league ever by any TE ever in the entire whole long history of the entire national football league ever. Only three TEs in the history of the national football league have ever put up even 180 fantasy points. The most recent time a TE broke the 180 point barrier was TWENTY SEVEN YEARS AGO... and you're not just projecting Finley to break the barrier, you're projecting him to break it by FIFTY POINTS. Finley could underperform that projection by 500 yards and he'd STILL post the best season that any TE has posted in the past 27 years.It's not just the fantasy points that would be an NFL record. Your projection would result in Finley setting the single-season reception record, the single-season yardage record, and the single-season TD record... ALL IN THE SAME SEASON. Pretty sure nobody's managed that trifecta since Don Hutson pulled it off... back in 1942.

Jermichael Finley is not Tony Gonzalez. Jermichael Finley is not Shannon Sharpe. Jermichael Finley is not Mike Ditka, or John Mackey, or Kellen Winslow Sr., or Antonio Gates, or Ozzie Newsome, or Dave Casper. Most importantly, he's not 50% better than every single one of those guys. Jermichael Finley is a 3rd year TE with SEVEN HUNDRED FIFTY CAREER RECEIVING YARDS.

The Jermichael Finley love in this thread has gone well past the point of absurdity. As I said, this is akin to projecting Shonn Greene for 2800 yards rushing and 42 TDs. After all, he's another young former 3rd rounder with no production to date who looked awesome in the playoffs. Why not project him to break every single rushing record that any RB has ever set in the entire history of the National Football League, too?

 
First rule of forecasting: Never forecast a record.

Corallory 1A: especially never forecast a record three standard deviations above the old record.

 
Bottom line is Finley was actually featured and scored quite a bit given his injury, having to fight off a horrid Donald Lee the coaches for some reason didn't demote sooner, being stuck as a blocker oftentimes when in the most pass-friendly situations, and some random bad luck(maybe you could attribute it to his routes being too shallow or something sometimes and will naturally improve as he gets a better feel for each situation on the field). In any event, he won't have any of the aforementioned issues in his way if he stays healthy and that, IMO, equals record-type numbers.

145tar/105/1375/15
I thought we'd covered this already. Those numbers project out to 227.5 fantasy points (332.5 in PPR). That would be the greatest fantasy season that any tight end in the history of the national football league has ever put up in the history of the national football league ever by any TE ever in the entire whole long history of the entire national football league ever. Only three TEs in the history of the national football league have ever put up even 180 fantasy points. The most recent time a TE broke the 180 point barrier was TWENTY SEVEN YEARS AGO... and you're not just projecting Finley to break the barrier, you're projecting him to break it by FIFTY POINTS. Finley could underperform that projection by 500 yards and he'd STILL post the best season that any TE has posted in the past 27 years.It's not just the fantasy points that would be an NFL record. Your projection would result in Finley setting the single-season reception record, the single-season yardage record, and the single-season TD record... ALL IN THE SAME SEASON. Pretty sure nobody's managed that trifecta since Don Hutson pulled it off... back in 1942.

Jermichael Finley is not Tony Gonzalez. Jermichael Finley is not Shannon Sharpe. Jermichael Finley is not Mike Ditka, or John Mackey, or Kellen Winslow Sr., or Antonio Gates, or Ozzie Newsome, or Dave Casper. Most importantly, he's not 50% better than every single one of those guys. Jermichael Finley is a 3rd year TE with SEVEN HUNDRED FIFTY CAREER RECEIVING YARDS.

The Jermichael Finley love in this thread has gone well past the point of absurdity. As I said, this is akin to projecting Shonn Greene for 2800 yards rushing and 42 TDs. After all, he's another young former 3rd rounder with no production to date who looked awesome in the playoffs. Why not project him to break every single rushing record that any RB has ever set in the entire history of the National Football League, too?
I agree that those projected numbers are most likely unreachable or too high, but the main point here is Finley got tremendous upside, and that point alone you don't seem to agree.
 
Bottom line is Finley was actually featured and scored quite a bit given his injury, having to fight off a horrid Donald Lee the coaches for some reason didn't demote sooner, being stuck as a blocker oftentimes when in the most pass-friendly situations, and some random bad luck(maybe you could attribute it to his routes being too shallow or something sometimes and will naturally improve as he gets a better feel for each situation on the field). In any event, he won't have any of the aforementioned issues in his way if he stays healthy and that, IMO, equals record-type numbers.

145tar/105/1375/15
The Jermichael Finley love in this thread has gone well past the point of absurdity. As I said, this is akin to projecting Shonn Greene for 2800 yards rushing and 42 TDs. After all, he's another young former 3rd rounder with no production to date who looked awesome in the playoffs. Why not project him to break every single rushing record that any RB has ever set in the entire history of the National Football League, too?
I was 100% with you until the bolded word. We're not talking about Martellus Bennett here.ETA: Talking purely about production, if Finley's 55/676/5 counted as "no" production, then Tony Gonzalez (59/621/2) also had "no" production in his second year. Tony G went for 76/849/11 in his third year.

People are going loco predicting numbers for Finley, that's clear. And people generally overestimate the likelihood their guy is going to become the next Tony Gonzalez/Ray Rice/Chris Johnson/etc. But sometimes those leaps do happen; the key is weighing the other factors to figure out how likely that type of leap is from the player in question.

 
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