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SF signs Westbrook (1 Viewer)

Carolina Hustler said:
jude said:
shader said:
I'm not sure that this is good news for Westbrook owners. I'm also not sure that this is good news for Gore owners either.

For the 49ers, this is a GREAT signing. I never thought Westbrook's speed or physical skills eroded, it was the concussions that scared me.

If he's past the concussions, this is a bigtime signing. It's obvious teams were skeptical, but the 49ers are a dream scenario. Dixon is there if Westbrook does get hurt again, Gore is the workhorse, and Westy can get 8-10 carries and catch 4-5 balls a game.
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Westy wont be getting 15 touches per game. Not even close. try about 8 total on average per game for the year, maximum.
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Based on...?
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If Westbrook is so great, why was he still available in mid August? Yes, he will contribute. But, at 30 years old and coming off an injury plagued season (and he wasn't exactly the most durable guy before that) I don't think Westbrook is a guy you intend to get the ball a lot. Fifteen touches a game is a lot, and completely unnecessary considering Gore is younger, highly productive, and more durable. Westy may have some games with a fairly heavy workload, but I'd be very surprised if he averaged 15 touches a game unless Gore gets hurt. Fifteen touches is 1/3 to 1/2 of the rb workload....no way. Everyone says Singletary cares about winning real football games, not fantasy games. I agree, which is why Westy won't be on the field much when Gore is healthy and reasonably fresh. Westbrook is replacing Coffee. He will get more touches than Coffee did, but I don't see much justification for cutting deep into Gore's workload. All that said, I do agree that Gore loses a little. You have to at least knock a few catches off of his projections now. If you projected him for 50 catches prior to the Westy signing, you should knock that down to 35-40.
 
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Yeah, I'm not liking this a ton for Gore. I've been looking for any excuse to take Turner over Gore in my non-PPR league at 5. I think I just found it.

Westy will steal some touches, and those "somes" will be more than Coffee would have taken, so that worries me. Especially since Westbrook is an unknown. We know what Coffee would have done in that offense, and we have a good idea what would happen without Coffee and without Westbrook. But adding a guy like Westbrook is scary only because we don't know what to expect. If anything, that uncertainty should drop Gore just a bit.

 
Carolina Hustler said:
shadyridr said:
If Westbrook was such a big plan in their offense why did they wait for their backup RB to become a priest before signing him?
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It's ridiculous that I have to explain this. I feel like I've already done that but maybe I should try to make it a little clearer for those who might be intentionally daft.Westbrook can fill the hole Coffee left, but also has other abilities that Coffee didn't have. While it makes sense to have Westbrook fill the void left by Coffee, it doesn't make sense to not then explore these other benefits Westbrook brings to the table. He was needed as a replacement for Coffee and the extras he brings to the table are gravy..I'm a General Contractor. I hire and fire/lose employees and/or sub contractors from time to time. When I lose a guy and have to replace him, if the guy I find as his replacement has other traits or abilities that the previous guy didn't have, better bet I'm going to take advantage of them. If he's better with clients, I then can spend less time dealing with the clients in site, if he's better with scheduling, I'll let him help with scheduling. I'm not limited to using him only for the strengths the previous guy had. And most likely there were things the previous guy did that the new guy doesn't do as well. But I play these guys to their strengths...Why wouldn't they use Westbrooks greatest strength? I understand that wasn't the main reason for hiring him, but they certainly aren't limited to only using him for what Coffee was able to do.You said "If Westbrook was such a big plan in their offense" which was mainly sarcasm but I'll respond anyways. He doesn't have to be a big plan in order for him to be used in an existing role (3rd down and/or slot) and it certainly isn't a big deal to add a couple plays to the play book that allow the Niners to take advantage of what Westbrook brings to the table.
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I'll agree with what you're posting, in reference to "why are they signing him just now". You want to build through youth and the draft and not signing old vets etc. But now that he's here he will more of a vulture to FF points than just Coffee and Dixon alone.
Carolina Hustler said:
SNIPWestbrook doesn't have to be limited to backup RB duty, that would be foolish. He's a talented player and I expect he'll be used creatively. It would be smart to get him touches not only on 3rd downs out of the backfield but to line up at WR from time to time.Over Westbrooks career he averaged 4.6 catches per game, that includes averaging in 2002-2004 where he only caught 46 passes in 30 games (1.5 per game). (Gore averaged 3 per game over his career without the slow start Westbrook had)Over a 16 games season that projects out to 73.6 rec's.. In his best season he caught an average of 6 balls a game projecting 96rec's over 16 gameslast season, his worst season in recent history he averaged 3.125 catches per game projected over 16 games would be 50 rec'sThe fact that he could be also used as a receiver for lack of stronger options in this offense at the WR2 and WR3 would suggest he can most likely land that 60 rec's this season if he stays healthy.I think the problem you're having is that you owner Gore and you want to defend your investment to the point that you only see Westy competing with Gore for touches. #1 the offense should be better this year, which would suggest a few more touches to go around. #2 Westy's talents could put him in completion with all the receivers on the team for touches, not just Gore.Westy in the slot would do great things for this team. He has amassing hands and he has a knack for getting open underneath. And he's quick..Davis, Gore, Crabtree, and Westbrook all on the field at once, sounds like major headaches for opposing defenses.Edit for spelling error
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I don't doubt that Westy is a great receiving threat. I loved Westy. I had him on my fantasy team like...every year (even when it hurt last year). Even last year he would be pro-rated to 50 receptions through 16 games. Granted, also, is that the pass/run ratio is actually very similar between Philly and San Fran (59 to 57% I think) in reference to last year alone.However, it's my opinion that San Fran is going back to a smash mouth football and moving away from the spread they were testing with ASmith. Their draft strategy and head coaching philosophy is what lead me to believe this. Westy also benefited from the fact that he was playing as the #1, or at least 2/3rds of the #1 (more than a 1a 1b with McCoy) with the eagles. He is clearly the #2 back behind Gore. More than a breather/CoP but not a worker to share a significant load. Further, some of the short screen plays and such that Philly would utilize to pick up short first downs will now be turned into Gore running between the tackles. Gore's a bit better at this than Weaver, and outside of him it seemed like no one else could pick up short yardage. I'm not saying it's inconceivable that Westy gets 50 receptions in this offense, but a lot of things would have to align and I just can't see it happening. He's got to get used to the playbook, get comfortable with his new teammates, get into a comfortable zone with ASmith, etc. There's a lot to digest in just a few weeks before the season starts. I'm projecting 35 total receptions and 250 receiving yds for Westbrook this year. I haven't thought hard enough about total carries. But there should be enough of those to go around to satisfy both backs without dipping into Gores value by more than a minuscule amount.
 
Carolina Hustler said:
jude said:
shader said:
jude said:
shader said:
I'm not sure that this is good news for Westbrook owners. I'm also not sure that this is good news for Gore owners either.For the 49ers, this is a GREAT signing. I never thought Westbrook's speed or physical skills eroded, it was the concussions that scared me.If he's past the concussions, this is a bigtime signing. It's obvious teams were skeptical, but the 49ers are a dream scenario. Dixon is there if Westbrook does get hurt again, Gore is the workhorse, and Westy can get 8-10 carries and catch 4-5 balls a game.
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Westy wont be getting 15 touches per game. Not even close. try about 8 total on average per game for the year.
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I can't predict his concussion future and won't pretend to.But assuming he stays healthy, I'd take that bet all day. 150 carries and 60 receptions seems like very realistic numbers.
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you are nuts. gore isnt even gonna get 60 receptions but you expect a backup to get that?
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Westbrook doesn't have to be limited to backup RB duty, that would be foolish. He's a talented player and I expect he'll be used creatively. It would be smart to get him touches not only on 3rd downs out of the backfield but to line up at WR from time to time.Over Westbrooks career he averaged 4.6 catches per game, that includes averaging in 2002-2004 where he only caught 46 passes in 30 games (1.5 per game). (Gore averaged 3 per game over his career without the slow start Westbrook had)Over a 16 games season that projects out to 73.6 rec's.. In his best season he caught an average of 6 balls a game projecting 96rec's over 16 gameslast season, his worst season in recent history he averaged 3.125 catches per game projected over 16 games would be 50 rec'sThe fact that he could be also used as a receiver for lack of stronger options in this offense at the WR2 and WR3 would suggest he can most likely land that 60 rec's this season if he stays healthy.I think the problem you're having is that you owner Gore and you want to defend your investment to the point that you only see Westy competing with Gore for touches. #1 the offense should be better this year, which would suggest a few more touches to go around. #2 Westy's talents could put him in completion with all the receivers on the team for touches, not just Gore.Westy in the slot would do great things for this team. He has amassing hands and he has a knack for getting open underneath. And he's quick..Davis, Gore, Crabtree, and Westbrook all on the field at once, sounds like major headaches for opposing defenses.Edit for spelling error
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Trying to do statistical analysis with Westbrook is pointless. The guy is pretty much done. Not only does he have serious concussion problems, but he also has balky knees. He's lost the burst and quickness that made him effective when he was considered one of the best all around backs in the league. IMO, he'll be nothing more then a guy they use in 3rd and long for blocking/recieving and to give Gore a breather after he breaks off a long run. But even that might be too much work for him.I wish him the best of luck, but I really think he should have retired.
 
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jude said:
Carolina Hustler said:
jude said:
shader said:
Fullback Fro said:
For those that say this clouds Gore's status I will disagree. My interpretation of the situation is as follows. With the retirement of Coffee, the 9ers lacked a veteran presence with the backups for Gore. Michael Robinson has been a do-it-all kind of back for the 9ers and filled in admirable as a FB in his career but his skill set is limited. He gets by on knowing the system and being able to play several positions. And after that all you have is Dixon. A young back but who doesn't know the system. Still is learning what it takes to remain or succeed at the NFL Level. He probably doesn't fully grasp the offense or the playbook. He probably can't be expected to identify and make the right reads in 3rd down situations, but he can be a guy that can run the ball. He has the power, speed, an athleticism to be a successful ball carrier at this point. So until his mind can catch up to his talents the 9ers felt exposed at the backup position. In comes Westbrook. He is everything that Dixon is not. He can come in on third downs, make the right reads, be in the right spots, leak to flat when expected, or stick his hat on a blitzing LB. If you combine the two to make one guy then you got one heck of a backup. Gore will play as expected before the signing. Gore plays all three downs until he takes himself out when he's winded. The difference now is that it will give Singletary the ability to mix and match his backups depending on down and situation. The last thing you want is to limit your play-calling because of the personnel. This signing eliminate that problem.
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I don't think the 49ers will pound Gore into the ground un-necessarily. I think Gore will sit down on many 3rd downs, and I think in PPR his receptions will clearly take a hit. To think otherwise is "pie-in-the-sky" thinking, imo. Singletary isn't trying to get Gore rushing records. He's trying to win games and keep him healthy.
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he was signed for depth, not to instantly take upwards of 25% of the Niners offensive production for himself.
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Please link to details suggesting he'll be limited to RB depth...
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lol.you seriously need a link for this to be validated? so if some beat writer says it, you'll believe it?
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I'd trust some beat writer more then your off the cuff opinion that's probably more based on what you're hoping to get out of Gore on your fantasy team, especially if it was validated with a quote from a team source. You're claim is nothing more than :thumbup: without some validation, or an explanation even... You seem to have plenty to say when it comes to prediction but very little explanation or corroboration..
 
shader said:
You guys really think 4 catches a game is unrealistic IF he stays healthy?

None of us really know how much he has left. If he sucks, he could get cut before the season. If he plays really well (which I think he will), than he'll easily get 50-60 receptions.

LOL at the Gore fans consoling each other by trying to convince themselves that the signing is meaningless.

Gore's still a great back and this is actually a very good thing for him. Makes no sense in today's NFL to pound your RB all game long. Those days are ending.
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I think you've nailed it...

 
shader said:
I'm not sure that this is good news for Westbrook owners. I'm also not sure that this is good news for Gore owners either.

For the 49ers, this is a GREAT signing. I never thought Westbrook's speed or physical skills eroded, it was the concussions that scared me.

If he's past the concussions, this is a bigtime signing. It's obvious teams were skeptical, but the 49ers are a dream scenario. Dixon is there if Westbrook does get hurt again, Gore is the workhorse, and Westy can get 8-10 carries and catch 4-5 balls a game.
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I'm sure this is bad news for Coffee owners.You guys remember that play where Westbrook went down at the one to seal the win instead of going in for the score, right? He seems like the kind of smart player a guy like Singletary would notice and would want on his team. I don't see this as a "need his talents" signing as much as a good, character vet that Singletary would like on the sidelines. Not saying he can't do anything on the field, but I think the 49ers want Frank Gore carrying the ball for them when it matters.

 
latrops said:
Carolina Hustler said:
jude said:
shader said:
I'm not sure that this is good news for Westbrook owners. I'm also not sure that this is good news for Gore owners either.

For the 49ers, this is a GREAT signing. I never thought Westbrook's speed or physical skills eroded, it was the concussions that scared me.

If he's past the concussions, this is a bigtime signing. It's obvious teams were skeptical, but the 49ers are a dream scenario. Dixon is there if Westbrook does get hurt again, Gore is the workhorse, and Westy can get 8-10 carries and catch 4-5 balls a game.
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Westy wont be getting 15 touches per game. Not even close. try about 8 total on average per game for the year, maximum.
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Based on...?
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If Westbrook is so great, why was he still available in mid August? Yes, he will contribute. But, at 30 years old and coming off an injury plagued season (and he wasn't exactly the most durable guy before that) I don't think Westbrook is a guy you intend to get the ball a lot. Fifteen touches a game is a lot, and completely unnecessary considering Gore is younger, highly productive, and more durable. Westy may have some games with a fairly heavy workload, but I'd be very surprised if he averaged 15 touches a game unless Gore gets hurt. Fifteen touches is 1/3 to 1/2 of the rb workload....no way. Everyone says Singletary cares about winning real football games, not fantasy games. I agree, which is why Westy won't be on the field much when Gore is healthy and reasonably fresh. Westbrook is replacing Coffee. He will get more touches than Coffee did, but I don't see much justification for cutting deep into Gore's workload. All that said, I do agree that Gore loses a little. You have to at least knock a few catches off of his projections now. If you projected him for 50 catches prior to the Westy signing, you should knock that down to 35-40.
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If you'll read back, I never said he would drastically cut into Gore's touches. I expect Westbrook's touches to be a larger percentage in receptions than Gore's. Receptions don't only have to come from the RB position.

I agree that Westbrook has had his share of injuries, but also had a fairly large workload. 10-15 touches a game is a rather drastic reduction from what he was typically playing over the last 7 years. And players come back from injuries to have great seasons all the time. If Westbrook's injuries last season are going to keep him from being able to play ball this year, why has he made one come back after another in the past? If I remember correctly, he missed the entire 2003 season, seems his best years all followed...

 
carolina hustler:

I'd trust some beat writer more then your off the cuff opinion that's probably more based on what you're hoping to get out of Gore on your fantasy team, especially if it was validated with a quote from a team source.

You're claim is nothing more than :hophead: without some validation, or an explanation even... You seem to have plenty to say when it comes to prediction but very little explanation or corroboration..

why? beat writers just spread around their opinions too. they dont know anything for a fact. And no you are 100% off base. I am not projecting my negativity on Westbrook because I own Gore. Quite the opposite actually. Westbrook is DONE. It is laughable that you actually consider him a threat. He was perenially hurt before he was knocked out of the 2009 season. He has horrible knees and ankles and he's 31 years old. He was signed 3 weeks before the season started by a team who lost a running back to priesthood. Last I checked this was a message board filled with opinions, but if you really need it, just wait until week 4 when Westy is on IR and announces his retirement for your validation.

also, not many people here are saying the signing is meaningless. I am not sure who you are debatin this with.

 
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Carolina Hustler said:
latrops said:
Carolina Hustler said:
jude said:
shader said:
I'm not sure that this is good news for Westbrook owners. I'm also not sure that this is good news for Gore owners either.

For the 49ers, this is a GREAT signing. I never thought Westbrook's speed or physical skills eroded, it was the concussions that scared me.

If he's past the concussions, this is a bigtime signing. It's obvious teams were skeptical, but the 49ers are a dream scenario. Dixon is there if Westbrook does get hurt again, Gore is the workhorse, and Westy can get 8-10 carries and catch 4-5 balls a game.
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Westy wont be getting 15 touches per game. Not even close. try about 8 total on average per game for the year, maximum.
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Based on...?
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If Westbrook is so great, why was he still available in mid August? Yes, he will contribute. But, at 30 years old and coming off an injury plagued season (and he wasn't exactly the most durable guy before that) I don't think Westbrook is a guy you intend to get the ball a lot. Fifteen touches a game is a lot, and completely unnecessary considering Gore is younger, highly productive, and more durable. Westy may have some games with a fairly heavy workload, but I'd be very surprised if he averaged 15 touches a game unless Gore gets hurt. Fifteen touches is 1/3 to 1/2 of the rb workload....no way. Everyone says Singletary cares about winning real football games, not fantasy games. I agree, which is why Westy won't be on the field much when Gore is healthy and reasonably fresh. Westbrook is replacing Coffee. He will get more touches than Coffee did, but I don't see much justification for cutting deep into Gore's workload. All that said, I do agree that Gore loses a little. You have to at least knock a few catches off of his projections now. If you projected him for 50 catches prior to the Westy signing, you should knock that down to 35-40.
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If you'll read back, I never said he would drastically cut into Gore's touches. I expect Westbrook's touches to be a larger percentage in receptions than Gore's. Receptions don't only have to come from the RB position.

I agree that Westbrook has had his share of injuries, but also had a fairly large workload. 10-15 touches a game is a rather drastic reduction from what he was typically playing over the last 7 years. And players come back from injuries to have great seasons all the time. If Westbrook's injuries last season are going to keep him from being able to play ball this year, why has he made one come back after another in the past? If I remember correctly, he missed the entire 2003 season, seems his best years all followed...
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Incorrect. He had ACL surgeries on both knees in college and had to medical redshirt a year. He had a lisfranc injury in 2005. Concussion problems last year. And the rest of the games he's missed have usually been knee related, game here or there.
 
Snotbubbles said:
Incorrect. He had ACL surgeries on both knees in college and had to medical redshirt a year. He had a lisfranc injury in 2005. Concussion problems last year. And the rest of the games he's missed have usually been knee related, game here or there.
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How was I incorrect? :hophead: Seems what you just posted corroborates my suggestion... That he's had many injuries, and many great seasons after those injuries....How was that incorrect?
 
fsufan said:
Eagle Green said:
shadyridr said:
60 receptions :hophead:
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I know, I'd be finished reading the thread right now if I didn't have to pick myself up off the floor.
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some just do not get this is a depth signing
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Some do not get that Westbrook had options, and could have gone elsewhere rather than be "just a depth signing."Washington was interested, the Rams were interested, other teams were losing RBs (Bills, Broncos) and Westbrook had options. It's naive to believe that he signed with the 49ers solely to be "depth." I'm not suggesting that he will take 25% of the carries. However, I could see him getting between 8-10 touches/game. Not all of these will come at Gore's expense, as I imagine Westbrook will split out wide, line up in the slot, etc at times. But some of these touches WOULD HAVE been Gore's, IMO.
 
Carolina Hustler said:
latrops said:
Carolina Hustler said:
jude said:
shader said:
I'm not sure that this is good news for Westbrook owners. I'm also not sure that this is good news for Gore owners either.

For the 49ers, this is a GREAT signing. I never thought Westbrook's speed or physical skills eroded, it was the concussions that scared me.

If he's past the concussions, this is a bigtime signing. It's obvious teams were skeptical, but the 49ers are a dream scenario. Dixon is there if Westbrook does get hurt again, Gore is the workhorse, and Westy can get 8-10 carries and catch 4-5 balls a game.
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Westy wont be getting 15 touches per game. Not even close. try about 8 total on average per game for the year, maximum.
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Based on...?
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If Westbrook is so great, why was he still available in mid August? Yes, he will contribute. But, at 30 years old and coming off an injury plagued season (and he wasn't exactly the most durable guy before that) I don't think Westbrook is a guy you intend to get the ball a lot. Fifteen touches a game is a lot, and completely unnecessary considering Gore is younger, highly productive, and more durable. Westy may have some games with a fairly heavy workload, but I'd be very surprised if he averaged 15 touches a game unless Gore gets hurt. Fifteen touches is 1/3 to 1/2 of the rb workload....no way. Everyone says Singletary cares about winning real football games, not fantasy games. I agree, which is why Westy won't be on the field much when Gore is healthy and reasonably fresh. Westbrook is replacing Coffee. He will get more touches than Coffee did, but I don't see much justification for cutting deep into Gore's workload. All that said, I do agree that Gore loses a little. You have to at least knock a few catches off of his projections now. If you projected him for 50 catches prior to the Westy signing, you should knock that down to 35-40.
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If you'll read back, I never said he would drastically cut into Gore's touches. I expect Westbrook's touches to be a larger percentage in receptions than Gore's. Receptions don't only have to come from the RB position.

I agree that Westbrook has had his share of injuries, but also had a fairly large workload. 10-15 touches a game is a rather drastic reduction from what he was typically playing over the last 7 years. And players come back from injuries to have great seasons all the time. If Westbrook's injuries last season are going to keep him from being able to play ball this year, why has he made one come back after another in the past? If I remember correctly, he missed the entire 2003 season, seems his best years all followed...
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he is done man. let it go. the niners will use him here and there but he will have very little impact on gore. the closest westy is getting to gore's job is when gore calls westy in for a breather.
 
Carolina Hustler said:
Snotbubbles said:
Incorrect. He had ACL surgeries on both knees in college and had to medical redshirt a year. He had a lisfranc injury in 2005. Concussion problems last year. And the rest of the games he's missed have usually been knee related, game here or there.
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How was I incorrect? :hophead: Seems what you just posted corroborates my suggestion... That he's had many injuries, and many great seasons after those injuries....How was that incorrect?
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you are correct. he is gonna get 15 touches a game, catch 65 balls and have a "great" season. Can't believe no other team saw this coming.
 
jude said:
why? beat writers just spread around their opinions too. they dont know anything for a fact. And no you are 100% off base. I am not projecting my negativity on Westbrook because I own Gore. Quite the opposite actually. Westbrook is DONE. It is laughable that you actually consider him a threat. He was perenially hurt before he was knocked out of the 2009 season. He has horrible knees and ankles and he's 31 years old. He was signed 3 weeks before the season started by a team who lost a running back to priesthood. Last I checked this was a message board filled with opinions, but if you really need it, just wait until week 4 when Westy is on IR and announces his retirement for your validation.

also, not many people here are saying the signing is meaningless. I am not sure who you are debatin this with.
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Hear again, who am I considering him a threat to? And if he's "Done" why did he have offers from NFL teams looking to roster a player that couldn't play? Some how or another Sir Jude knows better that real NFL GM's, I wonder why they didn't call you before the signing, would have saved them some money eh?

And as far as opinions go, you weren't stating it as opinion, you seemed to be stating as fact. And when you seem so darn sure of your self I wonder how you might have come to that conclusion... It's not atypical for people to quote there sources or to be asked for corroborating evidence around here either, so I'm challenged to understand why you find it so ponderous when I ask you to explain or validate your "opinion"...

 
jude said:
Carolina Hustler said:
Snotbubbles said:
Incorrect. He had ACL surgeries on both knees in college and had to medical redshirt a year. He had a lisfranc injury in 2005. Concussion problems last year. And the rest of the games he's missed have usually been knee related, game here or there.
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How was I incorrect? :confused: Seems what you just posted corroborates my suggestion... That he's had many injuries, and many great seasons after those injuries....How was that incorrect?
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you are correct. he is gonna get 15 touches a game, catch 65 balls and have a "great" season. Can't believe no other team saw this coming.
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Never claimed he'd get 15 touches a game or catch 65 balls, never claimed he'd have a great season, as a mater of fact, I never made a prediction. You're the only one around here that seems to have a crystal ball... :rolleyes:BTW, other teams were interested in Westbrook. He choose the Niners ... They weren't the only team interested...
 
jude said:
he is done man. let it go. the niners will use him here and there but he will have very little impact on gore. the closest westy is getting to gore's job is when gore calls westy in for a breather.
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Who are you arguing against? This is bordering on lunacy... I never said he was a big threat to Gore. You're insinuating I was pushing for Westbrook to take Gore's job... Maybe you need to get some sleep bro, you're not arguing the same points I am...
 
Carolina Hustler said:
Snotbubbles said:
Incorrect. He had ACL surgeries on both knees in college and had to medical redshirt a year. He had a lisfranc injury in 2005. Concussion problems last year. And the rest of the games he's missed have usually been knee related, game here or there.
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How was I incorrect? :confused: Seems what you just posted corroborates my suggestion... That he's had many injuries, and many great seasons after those injuries....How was that incorrect?
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He's never missed an entire season as a pro. His only real injury as a pro was a lisfranc. He missed 4 games. The rest of the injuries were just one games here or there. You have a knee surgery, then you have the knee drained. Then you have the knee drained. Then you have the knee drained. Then you have the knee drained. Then you have no cartiledge in the knees and you get bone rubbing on bone. Then you get arthritis. You lose your burst and quickness seemingly overnight. That's where Westbrook was in 2008. He lost the quickness that made him one of the best all around RBs in the league. All the statistical analysis in the world won't change that. Bringing up what he did in 2007 or 2006 or 2005 is irrelevant. Westbrook isn't that guy anymore.
 
Snotbubbles said:
Carolina Hustler said:
Snotbubbles said:
Incorrect. He had ACL surgeries on both knees in college and had to medical redshirt a year. He had a lisfranc injury in 2005. Concussion problems last year. And the rest of the games he's missed have usually been knee related, game here or there.
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How was I incorrect? :goodposting: Seems what you just posted corroborates my suggestion... That he's had many injuries, and many great seasons after those injuries....How was that incorrect?
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He's never missed an entire season as a pro. His only real injury as a pro was a lisfranc. He missed 4 games. The rest of the injuries were just one games here or there. You have a knee surgery, then you have the knee drained. Then you have the knee drained. Then you have the knee drained. Then you have the knee drained. Then you have no cartiledge in the knees and you get bone rubbing on bone. Then you get arthritis. You lose your burst and quickness seemingly overnight. That's where Westbrook was in 2008. He lost the quickness that made him one of the best all around RBs in the league. All the statistical analysis in the world won't change that. Bringing up what he did in 2007 or 2006 or 2005 is irrelevant. Westbrook isn't that guy anymore.
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The missing an entire season... Yea, just looked back.. To be fair I did say "If I remember correctly".. evidently I didn't.. lolBut after looking back, I can honestly say that in his limited role last year, he was still able average enough catches that he would project out to 50 rec's. If he could do it last year during such an injury plagued season in a limited role, he could certainly do it this year if healthy. Yea I know he won't be the primary back this season, well, doesn't seem like he was last season either. He averaged 7.6 carries a game and and 3.1 rec
 
Gore was never going to carry it 30+ times a game. He wasn't even really likely to carry it 20 times a game. He averaged just over 16 carries a game last year and 3.7 receptions a game. Some of that was because of the Alex Smith spread experiment, but still can you really think he's going to drop from that? He's their workhorse and the best back on the team. He is also even more of a goal line back with Coffee gone. That's not Westbrook's role at all, not even when he was a #1 on the Eagles.

Coffee carried 6 times per game, and had just under 1 reception a game. I expect Westbrook to get those 6 carries, and the 49ers to run more. Westbrook will get some catches that Coffee did not, that's obvious.

This is how I feel it will break down:

Gore - 17-18 carries and 3-4 receptions per game - 280 carries and 56 receptions - 12 TD's

Westbrook - 5-8 carries and 2 receptions per game - 105 carries and 32 receptions - 3 TD's

Dixon - 2-3 carries and a reception every other game - 40 carries and 8 receptions - 1 TD

Robinson - a carry every other game at best with 1-2 receptions on the year - 8 carries and 2 receptions - maybe 1, but likely 0 TDs

And no, I have not drafted yet and only play redraft. Not a Gore owner. But I was at 5 or 6, I wouldn't hesitate to take him, especially in PPR.

 
Carolina Hustler said:
jude said:
he is done man. let it go. the niners will use him here and there but he will have very little impact on gore. the closest westy is getting to gore's job is when gore calls westy in for a breather.
Click to expand...
Who are you arguing against? This is bordering on lunacy... I never said he was a big threat to Gore. You're insinuating I was pushing for Westbrook to take Gore's job... Maybe you need to get some sleep bro, you're not arguing the same points I am...
Click to expand...
guy, nobody here knows wtf YOU are talking about. westbrook sucks now. deal with it. im done with you.
 
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Carolina Hustler said:
Snotbubbles said:
Carolina Hustler said:
Snotbubbles said:
Incorrect. He had ACL surgeries on both knees in college and had to medical redshirt a year. He had a lisfranc injury in 2005. Concussion problems last year. And the rest of the games he's missed have usually been knee related, game here or there.
Click to expand...
How was I incorrect? :goodposting: Seems what you just posted corroborates my suggestion... That he's had many injuries, and many great seasons after those injuries....How was that incorrect?
Click to expand...
He's never missed an entire season as a pro. His only real injury as a pro was a lisfranc. He missed 4 games. The rest of the injuries were just one games here or there. You have a knee surgery, then you have the knee drained. Then you have the knee drained. Then you have the knee drained. Then you have the knee drained. Then you have no cartiledge in the knees and you get bone rubbing on bone. Then you get arthritis. You lose your burst and quickness seemingly overnight. That's where Westbrook was in 2008. He lost the quickness that made him one of the best all around RBs in the league. All the statistical analysis in the world won't change that. Bringing up what he did in 2007 or 2006 or 2005 is irrelevant. Westbrook isn't that guy anymore.
Click to expand...
The missing an entire season... Yea, just looked back.. To be fair I did say "If I remember correctly".. evidently I didn't.. lolBut after looking back, I can honestly say that in his limited role last year, he was still able average enough catches that he would project out to 50 rec's. If he could do it last year during such an injury plagued season in a limited role, he could certainly do it this year if healthy. Yea I know he won't be the primary back this season, well, doesn't seem like he was last season either. He averaged 7.6 carries a game and and 3.1 rec
Click to expand...
Philly and SF aren't the same offense by a long shot. Alex Smith is not McNabb. McCoy is definitely not Gore.
 
two_dollars said:
Carolina Hustler said:
Snotbubbles said:
Carolina Hustler said:
Snotbubbles said:
Incorrect. He had ACL surgeries on both knees in college and had to medical redshirt a year. He had a lisfranc injury in 2005. Concussion problems last year. And the rest of the games he's missed have usually been knee related, game here or there.
Click to expand...
How was I incorrect? :goodposting: Seems what you just posted corroborates my suggestion... That he's had many injuries, and many great seasons after those injuries....How was that incorrect?
Click to expand...
He's never missed an entire season as a pro. His only real injury as a pro was a lisfranc. He missed 4 games. The rest of the injuries were just one games here or there. You have a knee surgery, then you have the knee drained. Then you have the knee drained. Then you have the knee drained. Then you have the knee drained. Then you have no cartiledge in the knees and you get bone rubbing on bone. Then you get arthritis. You lose your burst and quickness seemingly overnight. That's where Westbrook was in 2008. He lost the quickness that made him one of the best all around RBs in the league. All the statistical analysis in the world won't change that. Bringing up what he did in 2007 or 2006 or 2005 is irrelevant. Westbrook isn't that guy anymore.
Click to expand...
The missing an entire season... Yea, just looked back.. To be fair I did say "If I remember correctly".. evidently I didn't.. lolBut after looking back, I can honestly say that in his limited role last year, he was still able average enough catches that he would project out to 50 rec's. If he could do it last year during such an injury plagued season in a limited role, he could certainly do it this year if healthy. Yea I know he won't be the primary back this season, well, doesn't seem like he was last season either. He averaged 7.6 carries a game and and 3.1 rec
Click to expand...
Philly and SF aren't the same offense by a long shot. Alex Smith is not McNabb. McCoy is definitely not Gore.
Click to expand...
My point is that he'll be the best receiving back on the team, it does make sense that they use him in passing situations, and with last season being his worse in recent history, I don't think it's impossible for him to duplicate the rec totals, if not better them, by taking on an additional role like lining up in the slot from time to time.And you're right, they are a completely different team, less of a down field offense, and maybe they need his ability to catch the ball underneath more than you're considering.
 
jude said:
Carolina Hustler said:
jude said:
he is done man. let it go. the niners will use him here and there but he will have very little impact on gore. the closest westy is getting to gore's job is when gore calls westy in for a breather.
Click to expand...
Who are you arguing against? This is bordering on lunacy... I never said he was a big threat to Gore. You're insinuating I was pushing for Westbrook to take Gore's job... Maybe you need to get some sleep bro, you're not arguing the same points I am...
Click to expand...
guy, nobody here knows wtf YOU are talking about. westbrook sucks now. deal with it. im done with you.
Click to expand...
:shrug:
 
Carolina Hustler said:
two_dollars said:
Carolina Hustler said:
Snotbubbles said:
He's never missed an entire season as a pro. His only real injury as a pro was a lisfranc. He missed 4 games. The rest of the injuries were just one games here or there. You have a knee surgery, then you have the knee drained. Then you have the knee drained. Then you have the knee drained. Then you have the knee drained. Then you have no cartiledge in the knees and you get bone rubbing on bone. Then you get arthritis. You lose your burst and quickness seemingly overnight. That's where Westbrook was in 2008. He lost the quickness that made him one of the best all around RBs in the league. All the statistical analysis in the world won't change that. Bringing up what he did in 2007 or 2006 or 2005 is irrelevant. Westbrook isn't that guy anymore.
Click to expand...
The missing an entire season... Yea, just looked back.. To be fair I did say "If I remember correctly".. evidently I didn't.. lolBut after looking back, I can honestly say that in his limited role last year, he was still able average enough catches that he would project out to 50 rec's. If he could do it last year during such an injury plagued season in a limited role, he could certainly do it this year if healthy. Yea I know he won't be the primary back this season, well, doesn't seem like he was last season either. He averaged 7.6 carries a game and and 3.1 rec
Click to expand...
Philly and SF aren't the same offense by a long shot. Alex Smith is not McNabb. McCoy is definitely not Gore.
Click to expand...
My point is that he'll be the best receiving back on the team, it does make sense that they use him in passing situations, and with last season being his worse in recent history, I don't think it's impossible for him to duplicate the rec totals, if not better them, by taking on an additional role like lining up in the slot from time to time.And you're right, they are a completely different team, less of a down field offense, and maybe they need his ability to catch the ball underneath more than you're considering.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure I agree that at this point Gore isn't the better receiver. He's no slouch himself and I believe more dangerous after the catch. Westbrook learning several positions at this point is asking a lot. He may get a package where he isn't in the backfield but I don't see them using that more than once or twice a game. He's 30 and has injury issues. History doesn't bode well for Westbrook. Rudi Johnson and Larry Johnson didn't really do much. They didn't take from Smith and Benson one bit.
 
Roger Craig-Minnesota

Thurman Thomas-Miami

Eric Dickerson-Oak/ATL

Tony Dorsett-Denver

Eddie George-Dallas

Ahman Green-Houston

Franco Harris-Seattle

I'm not saying Westbrook will turn out the same as these guys but why are people getting so caddy? No one knows for sure but I doubt Westbrook is going to take a bunch of carries away from Gore. In many ways it only help Gore take a breather and for SF it's perfect so they can keep Gore fresh throughout the season. Gore has seen his carries drop every year for the last 4 years. Westbrook has a chance to see some action because of the developing second and third tier WRs in SF...Morgan and Ginn aren't scaring anyone. AS I posted earlier, SF can now line up 2 WRs, Davis at TE, Gore at HB, and if they want bring Westbrook into the slot for passing situations or third down. He makes an excellent slot guy and won't absorb as many hits there. It could cut a few receptions from Gore but he only carried it 229 times last year so maybe a better back up can get him into the 260-280 area for carries. I doubt Gore would be pulled at the goal line for Westbrook to plunge it in short range.

What is all the fuss about?

 
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two_dollars said:
Carolina Hustler said:
two_dollars said:
Carolina Hustler said:
Snotbubbles said:
He's never missed an entire season as a pro. His only real injury as a pro was a lisfranc. He missed 4 games. The rest of the injuries were just one games here or there. You have a knee surgery, then you have the knee drained. Then you have the knee drained. Then you have the knee drained. Then you have the knee drained. Then you have no cartiledge in the knees and you get bone rubbing on bone. Then you get arthritis. You lose your burst and quickness seemingly overnight. That's where Westbrook was in 2008. He lost the quickness that made him one of the best all around RBs in the league. All the statistical analysis in the world won't change that. Bringing up what he did in 2007 or 2006 or 2005 is irrelevant. Westbrook isn't that guy anymore.
Click to expand...
The missing an entire season... Yea, just looked back.. To be fair I did say "If I remember correctly".. evidently I didn't.. lolBut after looking back, I can honestly say that in his limited role last year, he was still able average enough catches that he would project out to 50 rec's. If he could do it last year during such an injury plagued season in a limited role, he could certainly do it this year if healthy. Yea I know he won't be the primary back this season, well, doesn't seem like he was last season either. He averaged 7.6 carries a game and and 3.1 rec
Click to expand...
Philly and SF aren't the same offense by a long shot. Alex Smith is not McNabb. McCoy is definitely not Gore.
Click to expand...
My point is that he'll be the best receiving back on the team, it does make sense that they use him in passing situations, and with last season being his worse in recent history, I don't think it's impossible for him to duplicate the rec totals, if not better them, by taking on an additional role like lining up in the slot from time to time.And you're right, they are a completely different team, less of a down field offense, and maybe they need his ability to catch the ball underneath more than you're considering.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure I agree that at this point Gore isn't the better receiver. He's no slouch himself and I believe more dangerous after the catch. Westbrook learning several positions at this point is asking a lot. He may get a package where he isn't in the backfield but I don't see them using that more than once or twice a game. He's 30 and has injury issues. History doesn't bode well for Westbrook. Rudi Johnson and Larry Johnson didn't really do much. They didn't take from Smith and Benson one bit.
Click to expand...
Here again... :sigh: I never said Westbrook should majorly impact Gore's #'sAnd as far as better receiver goes, Gore's career average is 3.06 rec per game... Westbrooks worst year in recent history was last year, due to injuries, and he still bested Gore's career average with 3.125 and that includes a game he saw very limited action in (3 carries, no receptions) and with Westbrook working a limited role every game he played after the first 2.
 
Great sign -- Gore is not the most durable and neither is Westbrook. Westbrook is 30 but still has plenty if his head is okay and his 3rd down ability helps alot. This takes Gore out on 3rd downs and allows him to rest at times during the game rather than hammering him with 25-30 carries a game. Westy is a boredline HOF caliber player still with juice left and should get 3rd down duties as well as 5-10 carries - more or less depending on the game.

You can't have a healthy weapon like Westbrook and not use him -- go ahead and call me insane but if Westbrook really is 100% he is every bit as good as Gore if not better. The guy was the main weapon for the eagles playoff teams for years. Not saying theres a split Gore will be the starter and get the bulk of carries but Westbrook will get a few carries as well and maybe more than people think. Assuming Westy is healthy which is a big if -- I liken this to a Pierre Thomas / Reggie Bush situation though bother Gore and Westbrook are better.

on a normal game I see

Gore - 17 - 23 carries 2-3 receptions

Westbrook 8-10 carries 4-6 receptions

Davis 2-5 carries

also I see Westbrook in the slot often as well when not in the back field -- Westbrook could be quite the late round sleeper expecially if theres a Gore injury where he would become a bonafide #2 back. Right now as it is I think Westbrook is a solid #4 RB - bye week fill in type or if your WR heavy a decent #3 in PPR.

This move however IMO in perception moves moves Gore from the #5 overall PPR back to possibly boreline top 10 -- though IMO this may help Gore that likes to run all out every play -- with the rest he can now make the most of his runs.

 
Ministry of Pain said:
Roger Craig-MinnesotaThurman Thomas-MiamiEric Dickerson-Oak/ATLTony Dorsett-DenverEddie George-DallasAhman Green-HoustonFranco Harris-SeattleI'm not saying Westbrook will turn out the same as these guys but why are people getting so caddy? No one knows for sure but I doubt Westbrook is going to take a bunch of carries away from Gore. In many ways it only help Gore take a breather and for SF it's perfect so they can keep Gore fresh throughout the season. Gore has seen his carries drop every year for the last 4 years. Westbrook has a chance to see some action because of the developing second and third tier WRs in SF...Morgan and Ginn aren't scaring anyone. AS I posted earlier, SF can now line up 2 WRs, Davis at TE, Gore at HB, and if they want bring Westbrook into the slot for passing situations or third down. He makes an excellent slot guy and won't absorb as many hits there. It could cut a few receptions from Gore but he only carried it 229 times last year so maybe a better back up can get him into the 260-280 area for carries. I doubt Gore would be pulled at the goal line for Westbrook to plunge it in short range. What is all the fuss about?
Click to expand...
Roger - age 32 - 33 nothing left in tankTT - 34 YO - nothing leftED - 32 - 33 YO nothing leftTD - age 33 nothing leftEddie age 31 tons of milllage and nothing left his last few years in tenahman degen knee Green - same age but more millage and face it not the same back the last few years in GBFranco - ummmmmm 34 nada leftI think the only thing these guys got in common with westy is they changed teams
 
The Moz said:
Ministry of Pain said:
Roger Craig-MinnesotaThurman Thomas-MiamiEric Dickerson-Oak/ATLTony Dorsett-DenverEddie George-DallasAhman Green-HoustonFranco Harris-SeattleI'm not saying Westbrook will turn out the same as these guys but why are people getting so caddy? No one knows for sure but I doubt Westbrook is going to take a bunch of carries away from Gore. In many ways it only help Gore take a breather and for SF it's perfect so they can keep Gore fresh throughout the season. Gore has seen his carries drop every year for the last 4 years. Westbrook has a chance to see some action because of the developing second and third tier WRs in SF...Morgan and Ginn aren't scaring anyone. AS I posted earlier, SF can now line up 2 WRs, Davis at TE, Gore at HB, and if they want bring Westbrook into the slot for passing situations or third down. He makes an excellent slot guy and won't absorb as many hits there. It could cut a few receptions from Gore but he only carried it 229 times last year so maybe a better back up can get him into the 260-280 area for carries. I doubt Gore would be pulled at the goal line for Westbrook to plunge it in short range. What is all the fuss about?
Click to expand...
Roger - age 32 - 33 nothing left in tankTT - 34 YO - nothing leftED - 32 - 33 YO nothing leftTD - age 33 nothing leftEddie age 31 tons of milllage and nothing left his last few years in tenahman degen knee Green - same age but more millage and face it not the same back the last few years in GBFranco - ummmmmm 34 nada leftI think the only thing these guys got in common with westy is they changed teams
Click to expand...
You don't see Westbrook in the twilight of his career? Also a lot of these guys went into the HoF, doubt Westbrook would make it right now. I see alot of similarities. You are coming across like Westbrook could duplicate his numbers from Philly. You are pointing to to a 2-3 year age difference when anytime after about 28-29 a RB typically declines, then add in the injury history and concussions...you really think it's night and day?I don't want this to get caddy but Westbrook played a long time for one franchise. How many RBs over the age of 30 switch teams after a string of injuries and then don't miss a beat with their new team? You keep posting "nothing left nothing left", but when these players went to those teams both them and the teams that picked them up thought there was something left...it's easy to look back and say this now but it points to a trend don't you think?
 
The Moz said:
Great sign -- Gore is not the most durable and neither is Westbrook. Westbrook is 30 but still has plenty if his head is okay and his 3rd down ability helps alot. This takes Gore out on 3rd downs and allows him to rest at times during the game rather than hammering him with 25-30 carries a game. Westy is a boredline HOF caliber player still with juice left and should get 3rd down duties as well as 5-10 carries - more or less depending on the game.

You can't have a healthy weapon like Westbrook and not use him -- go ahead and call me insane but if Westbrook really is 100% he is every bit as good as Gore if not better. The guy was the main weapon for the eagles playoff teams for years. Not saying theres a split Gore will be the starter and get the bulk of carries but Westbrook will get a few carries as well and maybe more than people think. Assuming Westy is healthy which is a big if -- I liken this to a Pierre Thomas / Reggie Bush situation though bother Gore and Westbrook are better.

on a normal game I see

Gore - 17 - 23 carries 2-3 receptions

Westbrook 8-10 carries 4-6 receptions

Davis 2-5 carries

also I see Westbrook in the slot often as well when not in the back field -- Westbrook could be quite the late round sleeper expecially if theres a Gore injury where he would become a bonafide #2 back. Right now as it is I think Westbrook is a solid #4 RB - bye week fill in type or if your WR heavy a decent #3 in PPR.

This move however IMO in perception moves moves Gore from the #5 overall PPR back to possibly boreline top 10 -- though IMO this may help Gore that likes to run all out every play -- with the rest he can now make the most of his runs.
Click to expand...
That's close to 160 carries and 80-96 receptions...many years he never did that when he was in Philly.


 
Ministry of Pain said:
The Moz said:
Great sign -- Gore is not the most durable and neither is Westbrook. Westbrook is 30 but still has plenty if his head is okay and his 3rd down ability helps alot. This takes Gore out on 3rd downs and allows him to rest at times during the game rather than hammering him with 25-30 carries a game. Westy is a boredline HOF caliber player still with juice left and should get 3rd down duties as well as 5-10 carries - more or less depending on the game.

You can't have a healthy weapon like Westbrook and not use him -- go ahead and call me insane but if Westbrook really is 100% he is every bit as good as Gore if not better. The guy was the main weapon for the eagles playoff teams for years. Not saying theres a split Gore will be the starter and get the bulk of carries but Westbrook will get a few carries as well and maybe more than people think. Assuming Westy is healthy which is a big if -- I liken this to a Pierre Thomas / Reggie Bush situation though bother Gore and Westbrook are better.

on a normal game I see

Gore - 17 - 23 carries 2-3 receptions

Westbrook 8-10 carries 4-6 receptions

Davis 2-5 carries

also I see Westbrook in the slot often as well when not in the back field -- Westbrook could be quite the late round sleeper expecially if theres a Gore injury where he would become a bonafide #2 back. Right now as it is I think Westbrook is a solid #4 RB - bye week fill in type or if your WR heavy a decent #3 in PPR.

This move however IMO in perception moves moves Gore from the #5 overall PPR back to possibly boreline top 10 -- though IMO this may help Gore that likes to run all out every play -- with the rest he can now make the most of his runs.
Click to expand...
That's close to 160 carries and 80-96 receptions...many years he never did that when he was in Philly.

Click to expand...
well sf will run alot and yes if can see 60-70 rec
 
Ministry of Pain said:
The Moz said:
Great sign -- Gore is not the most durable and neither is Westbrook. Westbrook is 30 but still has plenty if his head is okay and his 3rd down ability helps alot. This takes Gore out on 3rd downs and allows him to rest at times during the game rather than hammering him with 25-30 carries a game. Westy is a boredline HOF caliber player still with juice left and should get 3rd down duties as well as 5-10 carries - more or less depending on the game.

You can't have a healthy weapon like Westbrook and not use him -- go ahead and call me insane but if Westbrook really is 100% he is every bit as good as Gore if not better. The guy was the main weapon for the eagles playoff teams for years. Not saying theres a split Gore will be the starter and get the bulk of carries but Westbrook will get a few carries as well and maybe more than people think. Assuming Westy is healthy which is a big if -- I liken this to a Pierre Thomas / Reggie Bush situation though bother Gore and Westbrook are better.

on a normal game I see

Gore - 17 - 23 carries 2-3 receptions

Westbrook 8-10 carries 4-6 receptions

Davis 2-5 carries

also I see Westbrook in the slot often as well when not in the back field -- Westbrook could be quite the late round sleeper expecially if theres a Gore injury where he would become a bonafide #2 back. Right now as it is I think Westbrook is a solid #4 RB - bye week fill in type or if your WR heavy a decent #3 in PPR.

This move however IMO in perception moves moves Gore from the #5 overall PPR back to possibly boreline top 10 -- though IMO this may help Gore that likes to run all out every play -- with the rest he can now make the most of his runs.
Click to expand...
That's close to 160 carries and 80-96 receptions...many years he never did that when he was in Philly.

Click to expand...
By "many years", do you mean 2? because the only years he didn't fall in that range where his rookie season where he only touched the ball 55 times and last season where he was injured most of the season.

Moz projections = 128-160 carries and 64-96 rec = 192-256 total touches

His average from 2003-2008 is 265.5 touches per year

I'm not saying Westbrook will match that. In my opinion he could keep up with rec's but I'd find it hard to believe he's fall within the 192-256 total touches range.

I wouldn't be surprised if he finished the season somewhere around 90-100 carries and 50-60 rec

 
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Carolina Hustler said:
Snotbubbles said:
Carolina Hustler said:
Snotbubbles said:
Incorrect. He had ACL surgeries on both knees in college and had to medical redshirt a year. He had a lisfranc injury in 2005. Concussion problems last year. And the rest of the games he's missed have usually been knee related, game here or there.
Click to expand...
How was I incorrect? :mellow: Seems what you just posted corroborates my suggestion... That he's had many injuries, and many great seasons after those injuries....How was that incorrect?
Click to expand...
He's never missed an entire season as a pro. His only real injury as a pro was a lisfranc. He missed 4 games. The rest of the injuries were just one games here or there. You have a knee surgery, then you have the knee drained. Then you have the knee drained. Then you have the knee drained. Then you have the knee drained. Then you have no cartiledge in the knees and you get bone rubbing on bone. Then you get arthritis. You lose your burst and quickness seemingly overnight. That's where Westbrook was in 2008. He lost the quickness that made him one of the best all around RBs in the league. All the statistical analysis in the world won't change that. Bringing up what he did in 2007 or 2006 or 2005 is irrelevant. Westbrook isn't that guy anymore.
Click to expand...
The missing an entire season... Yea, just looked back.. To be fair I did say "If I remember correctly".. evidently I didn't.. lolBut after looking back, I can honestly say that in his limited role last year, he was still able average enough catches that he would project out to 50 rec's. If he could do it last year during such an injury plagued season in a limited role, he could certainly do it this year if healthy. Yea I know he won't be the primary back this season, well, doesn't seem like he was last season either. He averaged 7.6 carries a game and and 3.1 rec
Click to expand...
Westbrook was actually considered the primary back in the games he played last year.Game 1 touches: Westbrook-16, McCoy-10, Weaver-2Game 2 touches: Westbrook-16, McCoy-9, Weaver-0Game 3 touches: Missed game with injuryGame 4 touches: Westbrook-8, McCoy-8, Weaver-3Game 5 touches: Westbrook-15, McCoy-5, Weaver-2Game 6 touches: Westbrook-3 (got injured with concussion in first quarter)Game 7-8 touches: Missed game with concussionGame 9 touches: Westbrook-8, McCoy-6, Weaver-2Game 10-14 touches: Missed game with concussionGame 15 touches: Westbrook-11, McCoy-7, Weaver-7Game 16 touches: Westbrook-9, McCoy-3, Weaver-1
 
two_dollars said:
Gore was never going to carry it 30+ times a game. He wasn't even really likely to carry it 20 times a game. He averaged just over 16 carries a game last year and 3.7 receptions a game. Some of that was because of the Alex Smith spread experiment, but still can you really think he's going to drop from that? He's their workhorse and the best back on the team. He is also even more of a goal line back with Coffee gone. That's not Westbrook's role at all, not even when he was a #1 on the Eagles.

Coffee carried 6 times per game, and had just under 1 reception a game. I expect Westbrook to get those 6 carries, and the 49ers to run more. Westbrook will get some catches that Coffee did not, that's obvious.

This is how I feel it will break down:

Gore - 17-18 carries and 3-4 receptions per game - 280 carries and 56 receptions - 12 TD's

Westbrook - 5-8 carries and 2 receptions per game - 105 carries and 32 receptions - 3 TD's

Dixon - 2-3 carries and a reception every other game - 40 carries and 8 receptions - 1 TD

Robinson - a carry every other game at best with 1-2 receptions on the year - 8 carries and 2 receptions - maybe 1, but likely 0 TDs

And no, I have not drafted yet and only play redraft. Not a Gore owner. But I was at 5 or 6, I wouldn't hesitate to take him, especially in PPR.
Click to expand...
I actually think these are pretty good projections for Westbrook if he can play all 16 games and both he and Gore don't get hurt.
 
Snotbubbles said:
Carolina Hustler said:
Snotbubbles said:
Carolina Hustler said:
Snotbubbles said:
Incorrect. He had ACL surgeries on both knees in college and had to medical redshirt a year. He had a lisfranc injury in 2005. Concussion problems last year. And the rest of the games he's missed have usually been knee related, game here or there.
Click to expand...
How was I incorrect? :mellow: Seems what you just posted corroborates my suggestion... That he's had many injuries, and many great seasons after those injuries....How was that incorrect?
Click to expand...
He's never missed an entire season as a pro. His only real injury as a pro was a lisfranc. He missed 4 games. The rest of the injuries were just one games here or there. You have a knee surgery, then you have the knee drained. Then you have the knee drained. Then you have the knee drained. Then you have the knee drained. Then you have no cartiledge in the knees and you get bone rubbing on bone. Then you get arthritis. You lose your burst and quickness seemingly overnight. That's where Westbrook was in 2008. He lost the quickness that made him one of the best all around RBs in the league. All the statistical analysis in the world won't change that. Bringing up what he did in 2007 or 2006 or 2005 is irrelevant. Westbrook isn't that guy anymore.
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The missing an entire season... Yea, just looked back.. To be fair I did say "If I remember correctly".. evidently I didn't.. lolBut after looking back, I can honestly say that in his limited role last year, he was still able average enough catches that he would project out to 50 rec's. If he could do it last year during such an injury plagued season in a limited role, he could certainly do it this year if healthy. Yea I know he won't be the primary back this season, well, doesn't seem like he was last season either. He averaged 7.6 carries a game and and 3.1 rec
Click to expand...
Westbrook was actually considered the primary back in the games he played last year.Game 1 touches: Westbrook-16, McCoy-10, Weaver-2Game 2 touches: Westbrook-16, McCoy-9, Weaver-0Game 3 touches: Missed game with injuryGame 4 touches: Westbrook-8, McCoy-8, Weaver-3Game 5 touches: Westbrook-15, McCoy-5, Weaver-2Game 6 touches: Westbrook-3 (got injured with concussion in first quarter)Game 7-8 touches: Missed game with concussionGame 9 touches: Westbrook-8, McCoy-6, Weaver-2Game 10-14 touches: Missed game with concussionGame 15 touches: Westbrook-11, McCoy-7, Weaver-7Game 16 touches: Westbrook-9, McCoy-3, Weaver-1
Click to expand...
And?... That's still a limited role.. Are you suggestion that 10.75 touches a game is his typical? I think you know better..
 
Carolina Hustler said:
jude said:
Carolina Hustler said:
jude said:
countingcrow said:
It remains to be seen how this will affect Gore on third downs. While Gore has above average catching ability out of the backfield, Westbrook is/was one of the best in the game. For those of us with the 5th pick in PPR leagues our decision just became a little tougher.
Click to expand...
while i agree this is bad news, at this point in their respective careers, Gore is a better receiver than Westy.
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Huh?
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what? he has much better feet and vision at this stage of his career. being a great receiving back is more than just having great hands. i consider him a better receving back than westy right now.
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If you said Westy lost speed or strength I'd agree with you, that as a player gets older he will slow, lose strength, and probably be less durable as well. But you're saying he's lost vision?.. lol.. And by feet, do you mean balance? I wouldn't see a player losing balance with age...

I'm positive that Gore is going to be better running the ball. But receivers typically last quite a bit longer than RB's, so when you say Gore's going to be a better receiver based on age, I have to disagree..
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Vision and balance are about timing. Its not about seeing the hole and hitting it- its about seeing the hole where it will be three steps from now- its about knowing if you can get there or not. Slowing down disrupts that timing. You can see the same hole but the half a step you lose means it isn't a hole for you anymore- its a linebacker plugging the hole.

 
baconisgood said:
Vision and balance are about timing. Its not about seeing the hole and hitting it- its about seeing the hole where it will be three steps from now- its about knowing if you can get there or not. Slowing down disrupts that timing. You can see the same hole but the half a step you lose means it isn't a hole for you anymore- its a linebacker plugging the hole.
Click to expand...
4.5 yards-per-carry average in an injury plagued 2009 season would suggest he can still be considered a viable option. And I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess he was able to still hit a few holes with a decent average like that.
 
Carolina Hustler said:
Snotbubbles said:
Westbrook was actually considered the primary back in the games he played last year.Game 1 touches: Westbrook-16, McCoy-10, Weaver-2Game 2 touches: Westbrook-16, McCoy-9, Weaver-0Game 3 touches: Missed game with injuryGame 4 touches: Westbrook-8, McCoy-8, Weaver-3Game 5 touches: Westbrook-15, McCoy-5, Weaver-2Game 6 touches: Westbrook-3 (got injured with concussion in first quarter)Game 7-8 touches: Missed game with concussionGame 9 touches: Westbrook-8, McCoy-6, Weaver-2Game 10-14 touches: Missed game with concussionGame 15 touches: Westbrook-11, McCoy-7, Weaver-7Game 16 touches: Westbrook-9, McCoy-3, Weaver-1
Click to expand...
And?... That's still a limited role.. Are you suggestion that 10.75 touches a game is his typical? I think you know better..
Click to expand...
Typical from what? He's not the same player he was. Using his "typical" numbers is pointless. But if you want to play that game ok. Westbrook got limited touches in an offense where he was THE MOST USED RB in the games he played and his competition for touches was a rookie (who Andy Reid historically doesn't like to use) and a FB. Now he's going to an offense where his competition is a vet RB coming off a Pro Bowl year who will probably be used much more then McCoy ever was. What type of workload are you expecting? I expect Westbrook to be nothing more then a guy you bring in 3rd and long situations to block or catch a pass here or there. And to give Gore a breather. Maybe 3 or 4 carries a game. 2 or 3 receptions.
 
Carolina Hustler said:
baconisgood said:
Vision and balance are about timing. Its not about seeing the hole and hitting it- its about seeing the hole where it will be three steps from now- its about knowing if you can get there or not. Slowing down disrupts that timing. You can see the same hole but the half a step you lose means it isn't a hole for you anymore- its a linebacker plugging the hole.
Click to expand...
4.5 yards-per-carry average in an injury plagued 2009 season would suggest he can still be considered a viable option. And I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess he was able to still hit a few holes with a decent average like that.
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I wasn't trying to weigh in on a has he or hasn't he lost a step- just commenting on the idea that Vision and balance are somehow things that a RB wouldn't lose as he got older. Vision is tied to speed and acceleration and what is balance? The ability of your muscles to react to a change in direction.
 
This is a funny thread, who peed in everyone's cheerios?

I don't think its responsible to say that Westbrook will severely cut into Gore's production, but to simply stick him into the role that coffee filled, DEPTH, is a little premature. Westy had other suitors, so there must be something left in the tank. He made the decision to go to SF, possibly based on them giving him a little more work than he'd see elsewhere.

The reality is this, Westy *was* one of the best pass catching RB's in the last decade and one of the shiftiest open field RB's in the game. He definitely has been on a decline for a couple years now but the main reason for his missing games in his last season were because of the concussions, not because of his knee. If he can keep those in check he should at least see the field.

Coffee was no more than a depth filler and its possible that Westbrook is here to soley fill that role. Using FBG's projections, Coffee projected out to 49 rushes and 12 receptions (about 61 touches in total.) That's 3 rushes per game and 1 reception every game and half. Does anyone here seriously think that Westy will only touch the ball 3-4 times a game?

In addition to being a great receiving RB, he is also one of the best pass blocking RB's in the game. While you may argue that at their respective stages in careers, Gore is a better RB than Westy you cannot say he is better at picking up the blitz, as few are. That will put Westbrook in on third downs a lot more than Coffee would have been.

Finally Westbrook has a great work ethic, is a quiet, humble leader and displays a lot of the traits that a coach like Singletary (IMO) wants on his team, in the locker room and on the field.

Based on that, I don't think its crazy to see Westbrook get 5-7 rushes and 4-5 receptions over the course of a game..that would project out to roughly

145-200 touches a game.

Westbrook brings a helluva lot more to the table than Coffee did. THATS the argument; what will Westbrook's usage be compared to Coffee? Figure that out and apply it against Gore. I believe that those out there that think it will have ZERO impact on Gore are fooling themselves or are saying what they want to hear until it becomes believable.

 
Snotbubbles said:
Carolina Hustler said:
Snotbubbles said:
Westbrook was actually considered the primary back in the games he played last year.

Game 1 touches: Westbrook-16, McCoy-10, Weaver-2

Game 2 touches: Westbrook-16, McCoy-9, Weaver-0

Game 3 touches: Missed game with injury

Game 4 touches: Westbrook-8, McCoy-8, Weaver-3

Game 5 touches: Westbrook-15, McCoy-5, Weaver-2

Game 6 touches: Westbrook-3 (got injured with concussion in first quarter)

Game 7-8 touches: Missed game with concussion

Game 9 touches: Westbrook-8, McCoy-6, Weaver-2

Game 10-14 touches: Missed game with concussion

Game 15 touches: Westbrook-11, McCoy-7, Weaver-7

Game 16 touches: Westbrook-9, McCoy-3, Weaver-1
Click to expand...
And?... That's still a limited role.. Are you suggestion that 10.75 touches a game is his typical? I think you know better..
Click to expand...
Typical from what? He's not the same player he was. Using his "typical" numbers is pointless. But if you want to play that game ok. Westbrook got limited touches in an offense where he was THE MOST USED RB in the games he played and his competition for touches was a rookie (who Andy Reid historically doesn't like to use) and a FB. Now he's going to an offense where his competition is a vet RB coming off a Pro Bowl year who will probably be used much more then McCoy ever was. What type of workload are you expecting? I expect Westbrook to be nothing more then a guy you bring in 3rd and long situations to block or catch a pass here or there. And to give Gore a breather. Maybe 3 or 4 carries a game. 2 or 3 receptions.
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I would contend that the injuries of '09' were the primary reason for the decline in #'s

His career average YPC is 4.55, His YPC average last year was 4.5

His Career average Rec per game is 3.98, His RPG last year (excluding the concussion game) was 3.57

I see no major decline...

When Westbrook is healthy, he can still play ball, certainly not in his prime, but 4.5 YPC and 4.5 rec per game are certainly better than average #'s...

If he can hold off the injuries, he can still be a special RB.

 
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Gore takes a small (and I mean small) hit with this signing, but he's still around the 4th to 6th best back in fantasy PPR leagues. Those of you talking about taking the likes of Turner over Gore are crazy.

 
I actually feel its a positive for Gore. Picture 3rd and 15. I think w Coffee we wait for the punt. I feel with Westy 49er's got a shot to move the ball. Gore comes back on the field @ 2yd line. So he missed a few plays, he gets the TD...

 
Carolina Hustler said:
Snotbubbles said:
Carolina Hustler said:
Snotbubbles said:
Westbrook was actually considered the primary back in the games he played last year.

Game 1 touches: Westbrook-16, McCoy-10, Weaver-2

Game 2 touches: Westbrook-16, McCoy-9, Weaver-0

Game 3 touches: Missed game with injury

Game 4 touches: Westbrook-8, McCoy-8, Weaver-3

Game 5 touches: Westbrook-15, McCoy-5, Weaver-2

Game 6 touches: Westbrook-3 (got injured with concussion in first quarter)

Game 7-8 touches: Missed game with concussion

Game 9 touches: Westbrook-8, McCoy-6, Weaver-2

Game 10-14 touches: Missed game with concussion

Game 15 touches: Westbrook-11, McCoy-7, Weaver-7

Game 16 touches: Westbrook-9, McCoy-3, Weaver-1
Click to expand...
And?... That's still a limited role.. Are you suggestion that 10.75 touches a game is his typical? I think you know better..
Click to expand...
Typical from what? He's not the same player he was. Using his "typical" numbers is pointless. But if you want to play that game ok. Westbrook got limited touches in an offense where he was THE MOST USED RB in the games he played and his competition for touches was a rookie (who Andy Reid historically doesn't like to use) and a FB. Now he's going to an offense where his competition is a vet RB coming off a Pro Bowl year who will probably be used much more then McCoy ever was. What type of workload are you expecting? I expect Westbrook to be nothing more then a guy you bring in 3rd and long situations to block or catch a pass here or there. And to give Gore a breather. Maybe 3 or 4 carries a game. 2 or 3 receptions.
Click to expand...
I would contend that the injuries of '09' were the primary reason for the decline in #'s

His career average YPC is 4.55, His YPC average last year was 4.5

His Career average Rec per game is 3.98, His RPG last year (excluding the concussion game) was 3.57

I see no major decline...

When Westbrook is healthy, he can still play ball, certainly not in his prime, but 4.5 YPC and 4.5 rec per game are certainly better than average #'s...

If he can hold off the injuries, he can still be a special RB.
Click to expand...
A healthy, starting Westy can still produce. I do think that a big part of what made him "special" was playing in an offense tailor made for his skills. Reid, with his WCO background, took full advantage of Westbrook's receiving skills. I doubt that the situation in San Francisco is nearly as favorable for him. He has four things working against him....age, injury history, a talented rb ahead of him on the depth chart, and an offensive system that doesn't appear as accommodating to his particular skill set...which isn't to say the 49er offense is bad for him, just not AS good as Philly's was. For those reasons, I think it is highly unlikely he is ever special with the 49ers. We should see a flash here and there, but he has a lot working against him to be able to produce meaningful statistics. Yes, he has ability and the 49ers will get him some looks, but I can't assume an average of more than 10 touches per game. It is possible, but I just don't see it as likely. On average, a team will have about 65 offensive snaps in a game. For Westy to get 10-15 touches a game, he would have to be on the field probably 20-30 snaps a game. I don't think the 49ers, who apparently weren't really looking for a rb until Coffee retired, signed Westbrook with the intentions of putting him on the field for 30-50% of the plays. I could be wrong about it. Maybe the 49ers will ride him til he breaks, but that seems unnecessary and counter productive. You want your backup rb to be available when he is needed and Westbrook is not a guy you expect to stay healthy with a heavy workload.
 
Dismattle said:
I actually feel its a positive for Gore. Picture 3rd and 15. I think w Coffee we wait for the punt. I feel with Westy 49er's got a shot to move the ball. Gore comes back on the field @ 2yd line. So he missed a few plays, he gets the TD...
Click to expand...
Whether or not that specific scenario plays out much, you make a good point. Anything that makes the 49er team and/or offense better isn't too likely to hurt Gore.
 
Carolina Hustler said:
shadyridr said:
If Westbrook was such a big plan in their offense why did they wait for their backup RB to become a priest before signing him?
Click to expand...
It's ridiculous that I have to explain this. I feel like I've already done that but maybe I should try to make it a little clearer for those who might be intentionally daft.Westbrook can fill the hole Coffee left, but also has other abilities that Coffee didn't have. While it makes sense to have Westbrook fill the void left by Coffee, it doesn't make sense to not then explore these other benefits Westbrook brings to the table. He was needed as a replacement for Coffee and the extras he brings to the table are gravy..I'm a General Contractor. I hire and fire/lose employees and/or sub contractors from time to time. When I lose a guy and have to replace him, if the guy I find as his replacement has other traits or abilities that the previous guy didn't have, better bet I'm going to take advantage of them. If he's better with clients, I then can spend less time dealing with the clients in site, if he's better with scheduling, I'll let him help with scheduling. I'm not limited to using him only for the strengths the previous guy had. And most likely there were things the previous guy did that the new guy doesn't do as well. But I play these guys to their strengths...Why wouldn't they use Westbrooks greatest strength? I understand that wasn't the main reason for hiring him, but they certainly aren't limited to only using him for what Coffee was able to do.You said "If Westbrook was such a big plan in their offense" which was mainly sarcasm but I'll respond anyways. He doesn't have to be a big plan in order for him to be used in an existing role (3rd down and/or slot) and it certainly isn't a big deal to add a couple plays to the play book that allow the Niners to take advantage of what Westbrook brings to the table.
Click to expand...
All this fantasy help, AND contracting tips.You're a winner Hustler
 
latrops said:
Carolina Hustler said:
Snotbubbles said:
Carolina Hustler said:
Snotbubbles said:
Westbrook was actually considered the primary back in the games he played last year.

Game 1 touches: Westbrook-16, McCoy-10, Weaver-2

Game 2 touches: Westbrook-16, McCoy-9, Weaver-0

Game 3 touches: Missed game with injury

Game 4 touches: Westbrook-8, McCoy-8, Weaver-3

Game 5 touches: Westbrook-15, McCoy-5, Weaver-2

Game 6 touches: Westbrook-3 (got injured with concussion in first quarter)

Game 7-8 touches: Missed game with concussion

Game 9 touches: Westbrook-8, McCoy-6, Weaver-2

Game 10-14 touches: Missed game with concussion

Game 15 touches: Westbrook-11, McCoy-7, Weaver-7

Game 16 touches: Westbrook-9, McCoy-3, Weaver-1
Click to expand...
And?... That's still a limited role.. Are you suggestion that 10.75 touches a game is his typical? I think you know better..
Click to expand...
Typical from what? He's not the same player he was. Using his "typical" numbers is pointless. But if you want to play that game ok. Westbrook got limited touches in an offense where he was THE MOST USED RB in the games he played and his competition for touches was a rookie (who Andy Reid historically doesn't like to use) and a FB. Now he's going to an offense where his competition is a vet RB coming off a Pro Bowl year who will probably be used much more then McCoy ever was. What type of workload are you expecting? I expect Westbrook to be nothing more then a guy you bring in 3rd and long situations to block or catch a pass here or there. And to give Gore a breather. Maybe 3 or 4 carries a game. 2 or 3 receptions.
Click to expand...
I would contend that the injuries of '09' were the primary reason for the decline in #'s

His career average YPC is 4.55, His YPC average last year was 4.5

His Career average Rec per game is 3.98, His RPG last year (excluding the concussion game) was 3.57

I see no major decline...

When Westbrook is healthy, he can still play ball, certainly not in his prime, but 4.5 YPC and 4.5 rec per game are certainly better than average #'s...

If he can hold off the injuries, he can still be a special RB.
Click to expand...
A healthy, starting Westy can still produce. I do think that a big part of what made him "special" was playing in an offense tailor made for his skills. Reid, with his WCO background, took full advantage of Westbrook's receiving skills. I doubt that the situation in San Francisco is nearly as favorable for him. He has four things working against him....age, injury history, a talented rb ahead of him on the depth chart, and an offensive system that doesn't appear as accommodating to his particular skill set...which isn't to say the 49er offense is bad for him, just not AS good as Philly's was. For those reasons, I think it is highly unlikely he is ever special with the 49ers. We should see a flash here and there, but he has a lot working against him to be able to produce meaningful statistics. Yes, he has ability and the 49ers will get him some looks, but I can't assume an average of more than 10 touches per game. It is possible, but I just don't see it as likely. On average, a team will have about 65 offensive snaps in a game. For Westy to get 10-15 touches a game, he would have to be on the field probably 20-30 snaps a game. I don't think the 49ers, who apparently weren't really looking for a rb until Coffee retired, signed Westbrook with the intentions of putting him on the field for 30-50% of the plays. I could be wrong about it. Maybe the 49ers will ride him til he breaks, but that seems unnecessary and counter productive. You want your backup rb to be available when he is needed and Westbrook is not a guy you expect to stay healthy with a heavy workload.
Click to expand...
And 10 touches a game was on the high side of what I was expecting..http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...&p=12167800

The #'s I suggested there work out to a range of 8.75-10 touches a game.. I think that's reasonable. Seems like we might be in agreement there based on your post.

I don't think he'll ever again be worth much as far as FF goes (unless Gore goes down), but he can certainly be an asset to the niners this season, and depending on how things work out, maybe the next...

8-10 touches a game isn't a tremendous workload, so I don't expect that to be as much of a detriment to his heath as you're suggesting. To me it sounds like smart use of his abilities. He's still a talented RB and he brings something to the table that Coffee didn't.

 
dickey moe said:
Gore takes a small (and I mean small) hit with this signing, but he's still around the 4th to 6th best back in fantasy PPR leagues. Those of you talking about taking the likes of Turner over Gore are crazy.
Click to expand...
But not so crazy in non PPR leagues no? I was debating between Turner and Gore at the 5 pick even before this news.
 
domvin said:
Carolina Hustler said:
shadyridr said:
If Westbrook was such a big plan in their offense why did they wait for their backup RB to become a priest before signing him?
Click to expand...
It's ridiculous that I have to explain this. I feel like I've already done that but maybe I should try to make it a little clearer for those who might be intentionally daft.Westbrook can fill the hole Coffee left, but also has other abilities that Coffee didn't have. While it makes sense to have Westbrook fill the void left by Coffee, it doesn't make sense to not then explore these other benefits Westbrook brings to the table. He was needed as a replacement for Coffee and the extras he brings to the table are gravy..I'm a General Contractor. I hire and fire/lose employees and/or sub contractors from time to time. When I lose a guy and have to replace him, if the guy I find as his replacement has other traits or abilities that the previous guy didn't have, better bet I'm going to take advantage of them. If he's better with clients, I then can spend less time dealing with the clients in site, if he's better with scheduling, I'll let him help with scheduling. I'm not limited to using him only for the strengths the previous guy had. And most likely there were things the previous guy did that the new guy doesn't do as well. But I play these guys to their strengths...Why wouldn't they use Westbrooks greatest strength? I understand that wasn't the main reason for hiring him, but they certainly aren't limited to only using him for what Coffee was able to do.You said "If Westbrook was such a big plan in their offense" which was mainly sarcasm but I'll respond anyways. He doesn't have to be a big plan in order for him to be used in an existing role (3rd down and/or slot) and it certainly isn't a big deal to add a couple plays to the play book that allow the Niners to take advantage of what Westbrook brings to the table.
Click to expand...
All this fantasy help, AND contracting tips.You're a winner Hustler
Click to expand...
No Domvin, you are the winner!!This is what I do.. I help others to see it my way.. Even if I'm wrong :jawdrop:
 
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