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Bullock sees work @ 1st team SLB (1 Viewer)

netnalp

Footballguy
Keith Bulluck working with the first team defense ... at outside LB. Sintim appears to have been at least temporarily bumped. - Mike Garafolo, Twitter

https://twitter.com/MikeGarafolo

Sintim still getting snaps with "big base" but Bullick in there with regular base D. - Mike Garafolo, Twitter

 
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Kiwanuka has been working with the LB's more that DL this week. When asked Coughlin smiled and said he was just working on his drop-backs.

Kiwi played SLB in 2008, but with Bullock to SLB. The only slot is MLB, my understanding that's the LB responsible for coverage in the middle in the Cover 2. One of the knocks on Kiwwi at LB was his pass coverage. Are MLB pass protections easier than SLB?

http://www.giants.com/news/transcripts/sto...?story_id=44224

Q: Mathias Kiwanuka looked like he was working more with the linebackers.

A: No. Just working on his drops. ( Mike Garafolo added the smiled part, still looking for that link)

DE Mathias Kiwanuka was observed to be doing more of his individual work with the linebackers than with the defensive linemen. “Was he?” asked Coughlin in a playful manner. “I must have missed that.” Coughlin then turned serious and said, “He’s been working on his drops.”

Actually Kiwanuka lined up a few times on the outside, with one package having Chris Canty at defensive end and Kiwanuka at linebacker. With the Giants looking to get as many of their pass rushers on the field, this seems to be one way for Perry Fewell to get both Kiwanuka and Umenyiora on the field together.

http://trainathought.insidefootball.com/20...st-23-2010.html

 
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Transcripts: LB Keith Bulluck

Q: Some of the guys have said that the SAM backer here is different than on other teams, is that the case?

A: I don't know. I know that here they refer to it as the Sam, but everyone else refers to it as the Will. It's different like that. That's kind of a little bit confusing. I don't know. Today is my second practice as an outside linebacker. I have yet to find out.

http://www.giants.com/news/transcripts/sto...?story_id=44228

 
netnalp said:
Bulluck is playing the strong side, though in the Giants' defense that's the traditional weak-side spot. - Mike Garafolo

http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2010/08...d_chris_ca.html

-------------------------------------

I'm confused, I thought the strong side was dictated by where the TE lines up. Enlighten me please.
There are a couple of flavors of the 4-3 Over front, used by the Kiffin family of coordinators and others, in which the naming of the OLBs gets confusing.

(This is the source of my confusion behind the Jene Bramel - Brandon Johnson Lost In Translation story from a few years ago BTW.)

Kiffin likes his WLB to be a free flowing, pursuit linebacker who's quick enough to be very good in coverage. Generally, that means an undersized player who may not be great in taking on blocks. Kiffin prefers him to be protected behind the defensive line.

Here's the 4-3 Under, where the defensive line is shifted away from the TE and the SLB (often) comes up to the line. With the line shifted weak, the WLB is protected well behind a wall of three defensive linemen.

Here's the 4-3 Over. Kiffin's playbook has the WLB to the TE side in this formation and the SLB to the open end, with all three backers stacked behind the line.

I've made many inquiries to confirm this and have yet to have anyone in the know respond, but I think the thought process is twofold. First, it's the natural extension of putting your WLB in the most protected position behind the line. Second, it allows him to remain the pursuit linebacker if/when the offense audibles to run to the weak side when they see the defense in the Over.

I think this, where I've labeled Bulluck 59 and Boley 52 is what Garofalo is hinting at with his tweet.

I still think Boley is the player to own, but Bulluck will hold better than usual SLB value in this setting if he plays every down.

 
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I thought it was really pushing it to expect that a Keith Bulluck, just a few months removed from ACL surgery, whose instincts were clearly still there but foot speed was well behind him, to handle the deep drops necessary when the Giants used Tampa-2 coverage.

That's probably something that was evident in the workouts before signing him. Maybe they thought it would get better as camp progressed.

 
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Thanks so much for explaining.

There is what the Giants call the "Big Base" where Kiwanuka is in at SLB, where Kiwi replaced Sintim, I don't know when they use it, for passing downs or short yardage.

Seems like Boley never comes out.

 
I thought it was really pushing it to expect that a Keith Bulluck, just a few months removed from ACL surgery, whose instincts were clearly still there but foot speed was well behind him, to handle the deep drops necessary when the Giants used Tampa-2 coverage.

That's probably something that was evident in the workouts before signing him. Maybe they thought it would get better as camp progressed.
Perhaps, but the beat writers have been raving about Bullock. Garafolo even mentioned that Bullock was able to keep up with coverage on Nicks on a play in practice. I think the change has more to do with Sintim not progressing as hoped and Goff doing well. If it was, Bullock, then I'd have expected the beat writers to comment that Bullock looked slow if it was the knee or that he looked confused and was making mistakes if he was having trouble learning the MLB position.I was impressed by a fine touch pass from QB Jim Sorgi to WR Hakeem Nicks. Nicks was covered by LB Keith Bulluck. Nicks is going to catch that ball no matter who is defending him, but at least Bulluck was able to keep up with him going down the field. Nicks made other catches and looked good doing it. - Marty in Albany, BBI

http://www.bigblueinteractive.com/training...rnoon-practice/

 
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I think a part of it is simply that Bulluck is not now nor has he ever been a true MLB.
If that were the case I'd think that the beat writers would have written something. Other than dropping a possible interception, I haven't read any negative blurbs on Bullock. If he was struggling, it would have been mentioned.
 
Here is an interesting read: http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2010/08...rry_fewell.html

Somewhat confusing article, but this part got my attention: "Basically, they told me Boley is now the strong-side linebacker...this is a return to the position Boley played for his first three seasons with the Falcons, when he was considered a traditional strong-side linebacker."

Jene, could you possibly elaborate on this a little further? There seems to be a lot of conflicting information on this situation.

I hope this isn't the case. I had really high hopes for Boley this season (even though I still think he can put up good numbers at SLB).

 
Here is an interesting read: http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2010/08...rry_fewell.html

Somewhat confusing article, but this part got my attention: "Basically, they told me Boley is now the strong-side linebacker...this is a return to the position Boley played for his first three seasons with the Falcons, when he was considered a traditional strong-side linebacker."

Jene, could you possibly elaborate on this a little further? There seems to be a lot of conflicting information on this situation.

I hope this isn't the case. I had really high hopes for Boley this season (even though I still think he can put up good numbers at SLB).
Awesome. That article clears up a lot of what I've been trying to confirm for two years.

“There are some guys who do it that way,” Fewell said. “We’re a little different in that sense, yes. … The way we teach and the way we do things is really based on the technique of what the guy in front of them is playing, so we try to cater to the technique of the defensive linemen to complement the linebacker who is playing behind them.”

Well, that didn’t help much. But the players were a big help.

Basically, they told me Boley is now the strong-side linebacker. Again, that’s the “weak side,” according to Fewell’s terminology. Last season, Boley was the weak-side linebacker in a traditional defense, meaning he lined up away from the tight end. This year, he’s lined up over the tight end, whom he’ll be covering in man-to-man schemes.

Now, this is important: this is a return to the position Boley played for his first three seasons with the Falcons, when he was considered a traditional strong-side linebacker.

Boley is probably the Giants’ best cover linebacker. (If you don’t believe me, see the Chiefs game from last year. That’s what he can do when healthy.) So it makes sense for him to cover the tight end, especially for a team in a division that has playmakers at that position.

“That kind of works out,” Boley said of covering the tight ends before channeling his inner Jerry Maguire by saying, “That’s kind of a help-me-help-you kind of thing.”

According to Gerris Wilkinson, who has been playing all over the place the past couple of months, the drops into zone coverage are the same for the “weak-side” linebacker as they were for the weak side linebacker in the schemes Bill Sheridan and Steve Spagnuolo ran. The difference, Wilkinson and Boley said, is in the running game.

Whereas Boley was used to seeing an open “B” gap (between the guard and tackle) as a weak-side linebacker under Sheridan, he’s now responsible for filling either the open “A” gap (between guard and center) or the “C” gap (between tackle and tight end), depending on the call and the alignment of the defensive front.

The difference in action, according to Boley, is a lot of running plays will now go away from him, as a lot of offenses like to attack the “bubble” of the open “B” gap on the “open” side of offense (away from the tight end). Last year, Boley saw plenty of “downhill” runs in the form of a pulling guard or fullback coming at him. This year, those plays will be run away from him.
That dovetails nicely with my assumptions from yesterday.
I've made many inquiries to confirm this and have yet to have anyone in the know respond, but I think the thought process is twofold. First, it's the natural extension of putting your WLB in the most protected position behind the line. Second, it allows him to remain the pursuit linebacker if/when the offense audibles to run to the weak side when they see the defense in the Over.
Mike Zimmer runs a 4-3 Over with the LBs "reversed", too. Michael Boley under Zimmer, and Keith Rivers now, and now again Michael Boley are called WLBs in a SLB-like responsibility in the Over. I disagree that Boley was a traditional SLB in every year with the Falcons. Some years, yes, but his year under Zimmer was just like what he'll be doing this year. Not all coaches with run a strict Over-Under defense do this. Monte Kiffin does, but the Colts and Bears rarely do.

 
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Jene does this significantly change your outlook for Boley this year?
Not really. I think the back seven remains relatively weak and he'll be in the most consistently protected position at LB, regardless of the terminology. The only thing that would keep me from confidently projecting numbers similar to Lance Briggs is Boley's history of questionable durability.
 
and whatever happened to Dillard? I haven't heard squat about him all pre-season. I haven't been able to find where he was injured or any other mention of him.

 
same thing happened with the Bills when they always listed Kawika Mitchell as the WLB and Keith Ellison as the SLB.

 
Jene does this significantly change your outlook for Boley this year?
Not really. I think the back seven remains relatively weak and he'll be in the most consistently protected position at LB, regardless of the terminology. The only thing that would keep me from confidently projecting numbers similar to Lance Briggs is Boley's history of questionable durability.
So even with this, your projections for Boley would be in the 80+ solo range with a couple int's and sacks, and 90+ solo range if he stays healthy for the year? Many thanks!
 
Jene does this significantly change your outlook for Boley this year?
Not really. I think the back seven remains relatively weak and he'll be in the most consistently protected position at LB, regardless of the terminology. The only thing that would keep me from confidently projecting numbers similar to Lance Briggs is Boley's history of questionable durability.
So even with this, your projections for Boley would be in the 80+ solo range with a couple int's and sacks, and 90+ solo range if he stays healthy for the year? Many thanks!
Somewhere in that neighborhood. He was on a 96 solo pace over 11 games last season, but, even in this scheme, I couldn't bring myself to expect that kind of sustained production.Without injury:Baseline expectation: 78-84 solos, 1-4 sack/INT, 7-10 PDCeiling expectation: 88-94 solos, 2-6 sack/INT, 8-12 PD
 
Does this make Goff the clear-cut man in the middle as far as we know?
I think so. Coughlin said Bulluck was moved to create competition for Sintim, I'm not buying that. This late into the preseason teams are solidifying their positions not shuffling guys around at different spots. If it was just to create competition, then Bulluck would get reps at MLB and OLB. Bulluck is now only practicing at OLB. The move was made because Boley, Goff, Bulluck is the better trio than Boley, Bulluck, Sintim.
 
Jene Bramel said:
Tenacious said:
Jene does this significantly change your outlook for Boley this year?
Not really. I think the back seven remains relatively weak and he'll be in the most consistently protected position at LB, regardless of the terminology. The only thing that would keep me from confidently projecting numbers similar to Lance Briggs is Boley's history of questionable durability.
How about your outlook for production from the SS position?
 
Jene Bramel said:
Tenacious said:
Jene does this significantly change your outlook for Boley this year?
Not really. I think the back seven remains relatively weak and he'll be in the most consistently protected position at LB, regardless of the terminology. The only thing that would keep me from confidently projecting numbers similar to Lance Briggs is Boley's history of questionable durability.
How about your outlook for production from the SS position?
Really hard to say, since the Cover-2 will result in a lot of snaps in which both safeties align 12 yards off the LOS (or more) and the FS is as likely to be the run support player as the SS.I think 70 solos is probably a reasonable high side expectation for both Rolle and Phillips, but both should be better than average big play guys. I'd have both of them as DB3+ guys, with top 15-20 upside if the linebacker group struggles a bit in pursuit.
 
From the aticle linked above:

One other thing involving the linebackers that’s not really anything unique, just a point of emphasis for Fewell and LB coach Jim Herrmann is the creation of a “wall” at the line of scrimmage. That means they want their linebackers to play downhill and get to the same level as the defensive linemen if possible.

----------------

Seems that offensive lines that can break that phalanx are going to get big runs from their RBs. Open a hole and your into the secondary.

 
Does this make Goff the clear-cut man in the middle as far as we know?
I think so. Coughlin said Bulluck was moved to create competition for Sintim, I'm not buying that. This late into the preseason teams are solidifying their positions not shuffling guys around at different spots. If it was just to create competition, then Bulluck would get reps at MLB and OLB. Bulluck is now only practicing at OLB. The move was made because Boley, Goff, Bulluck is the better trio than Boley, Bulluck, Sintim.
I agree... the Giants wanted their best 3 LBs on the field. Who is sporting the green dot here?.

 
Apologies, but as a rookie IDP guy this season I'm still in a bit of a fog on this one -- please pardon me while I re-ask how expectations c/should change for Bulluck's production this year. Thanks.

 
Apologies, but as a rookie IDP guy this season I'm still in a bit of a fog on this one -- please pardon me while I re-ask how expectations c/should change for Bulluck's production this year. Thanks.
Bulluck will be playing the role that Michael Boley did in Atlanta under Zimmer -- one that can be very productive if he plays every down. If he doesn't, his numbers will look more like Keith Rivers.I don't think Bulluck has Boley v2007 upside, but he's a potential LB3/swing type if he plays every down. If he doesn't, there are too many question marks (scheme, age, durability, competition for tackles, etc) to roster him unless your league rosters 60 or more backers and a matchup LB5 is a valuable roster add.

 
Earlier in camp, Kiwanuka was getting put in for Sintim for the Giants "Big Base" formation. Fewell has spoken about wanting to get Kiwinuka and OSi on the field for some packages. I just don't know what situations Kiwi comes in at LB, and if Bulluck will get pulled like Sintim was.

 
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Bulluck playing the middle in the team's "big base," which I don't believe we've seen yet in the preseason. - Mike Garafolo, Twitter

https://twitter.com/MikeGarafolo

That answers that, Kiwi goes to Bulluk's spot and Bulluck shifts to MLB in the "Big Base".

 
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Bulluck playing the middle in the team's "big base," which I don't believe we've seen yet in the preseason. - Mike Garafolo, Twitter

https://twitter.com/MikeGarafolo

That answers that, Kiwi goes to Bulluk's spot and Bulluck shifts to MLB in the "Big Base".
Don't get the "big base" thing. Sounds like it's more than a short yardage thing and a legitimate changeup to the defense that's a way to get size out there in favor of speed and possibly coverage (Boley is coming off the field in this package apparently).Of the divisional opponents, which team has a power set that the Giants need to defend? Dallas, but rarely. Washington and Philadelphia don't scare me there. Of the conference challengers, which team has a power set that the Giants need to defend? Minnesota, but probably rarely. New Orleans and Green Bay don't look like power teams.

I don't think this has much bearing on IDP values, but it just seems odd.

 
For you G-Men homers... Have any of you heard anything about Dillard? I can't find any news on the guy? Is he hurt? Just not that good?

 
Does this make Goff the clear-cut man in the middle as far as we know?
I think so. Coughlin said Bulluck was moved to create competition for Sintim, I'm not buying that. This late into the preseason teams are solidifying their positions not shuffling guys around at different spots. If it was just to create competition, then Bulluck would get reps at MLB and OLB. Bulluck is now only practicing at OLB. The move was made because Boley, Goff, Bulluck is the better trio than Boley, Bulluck, Sintim.
I agree... the Giants wanted their best 3 LBs on the field. Who is sporting the green dot here?.
My guess currently is that it will be either Boley or Bulluck. The MLB normally makes the calls but it looks like Goff comes off in the "Big Base". Boley and Bulluck look to be on the field more. I don't know who are the LB for nickel formations, Boley for sure but will have to see what they do in the next preseason game to find out for the other.
 
Bulluck playing the middle in the team's "big base," which I don't believe we've seen yet in the preseason. - Mike Garafolo, Twitter

https://twitter.com/MikeGarafolo

That answers that, Kiwi goes to Bulluk's spot and Bulluck shifts to MLB in the "Big Base".
Don't get the "big base" thing. Sounds like it's more than a short yardage thing and a legitimate changeup to the defense that's a way to get size out there in favor of speed and possibly coverage (Boley is coming off the field in this package apparently).Of the divisional opponents, which team has a power set that the Giants need to defend? Dallas, but rarely. Washington and Philadelphia don't scare me there. Of the conference challengers, which team has a power set that the Giants need to defend? Minnesota, but probably rarely. New Orleans and Green Bay don't look like power teams.

I don't think this has much bearing on IDP values, but it just seems odd.
Before Bulluck switch from MLB, the Big Base was Boley, Bulluck, Kiwi. Seems they liked what they saw with that package when Bulluck was MLB, so they're sticking with it. It may be for short yardage, but it could be a pass rush package where they rush 5 and Boley and Bulluck drop back, they could zone blitz and stunt with that formation too.
 
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Giants DC Perry Fewell Unveiling Innovative New Defensive Fronts

August 13th, 2010 at 3:52 PM

By Rich O'Callaghan

New Giants defensive coordinator Perry Fewell has brought a lot of fresh energy to the Giants defense this off season, as our own Simon GC documented in the previous post, which is something the team clearly lacked under Bill Sheridan last season. However, he has also brought some innovative formations Giants fans are likely to see early and often in 2010, which should help get the right players in the right positions to succeed in the right situations. I am extremely excited to see these new looks when the Giants take on the Jets, when we will get the first look at how effective they will be in game situations. These are the new formations I wanted to touch on:

* The Four Aces – The four aces in this defensive scheme are the Giants quartet of excellent pass rushing defensive ends all lined up together at the same time, with Justin Tuck and Jason-Pierre Paul inside and Osi Umenyiora and Mathais Kiwanuka outside, although they have shown looks where JPP and Kiwi switch spots and Dave Tollefson has also been used inside in this alignment. This look has Michael Boley and Jonathan Goff at linebacker, with three corners and two safeties, and looks like a basic nickel. However there have been plays where a linebacker rushes for a five-man rush and stunts where Boley rushes and Osi or Kiwi drop into coverage. Fewell has used this defense only in clear passing situations and in the two-minute drill, where it has had a lot of success, including a Goff interception. The rush has really dominated the offensive line and has gotten consistent pressure on the quarterback in this set, and it will be very exciting to see if this defensive formation is used on Monday night.

* The Big Base – A short yardage defense, which is designed to get the most beef possible on the line, this front features Justin Tuck and Chris Canty at ends and Barry Cofield and Rocky Bernard as the tackles. The most interesting thing about this defense is that Mathais Kiwanuka is also on the field, returning to his roots, at linebacker. However, Kiwi is on the weak side of this formation, with Clint Sintim on the strong side and Keith Bulluck in the middle. Kiwanuka has not missed a beat, often rushing in this formation, and has made some nice plays stuffing runs in the backfield and knocked down a few passes in coverage. I am a little disappointed that rookie defensive tackle Linval Joseph has not been very involved in this front, but Bernard seems to be ahead of him on the depth chart, at least in this formation.

* NASCAR – Another formation that the Giants have been using which includes four defensive ends, called NASCAR because it is all about speed. This formation is a three-man front with Kiwanuka, Pierre-Paul and Tuck up front and Umenyiora standing up as an outside linebacker. There is a lot of movement in this alignment and the Giants have shown a look where safety Antrel Rolle rushes the line and both blitzes or backs off at the snap of the ball. This scheme seems to be all about confusing the offense. It is much like the four aces, but with a three man front and more blitzing from the back seven.

Keep an eye on these formations during the preseason. The Giants are getting their best players on the field under Perry Fewell and are showing many new looks to do so. These innovative ideas are another credit to Fewell and the job he is doing as the Giants defensive coordinator.

http://www.giants101.com/2010/08/13/perry-...fensive-fronts/

NASCAR has gotten burned in camp each time they've run it.

Odd, this says Sintim has stayed in on big base, I'll look for the links from Garafolo where he says Kiwi goes in for Sintim.

 
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Here's the post from Garafolo suggesting Boley is out of this big base formation.

Glad to hear it's a short yardage deal, because it really made no sense as a larger base defensive wrinkle. We've seen the Giants do all sorts of cool nickel looks with their deep defensive line -- 5-1-5 looks, the four aces deal and others -- but the group hasn't been healthy enough to use it consistently during the season. Would love to see those looks this year.

 
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For you G-Men homers... Have any of you heard anything about Dillard? I can't find any news on the guy? Is he hurt? Just not that good?
For anyone that cares.... Finally some news on Dillard:
(Rotoworld) Giants LB Phillip Dillard suffered a potentially significant hamstring injury in Thursday's preseason finale.Analysis: The rookie appears likely to "miss some time," according to the Newark Star-Ledger. Dillard had the Giants made as a fourth-round pick, but this could give them a way to "stash" him on injured reserve. Jonathan Goff has won the starting middle linebacker job, and Chase Blackburn will back him up.
 
I was thinking about this thread today.

It seems like Boley has had a fluctuating value this off-season. Now that the pre-season games are over, what's his outlook going into game 1. He had another good stat line last night.

Still LB2 upside?

 

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