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Daughter's math homework (2 Viewers)

Geez. How difficult is this really?

If you are going to apply the same exponent to multiple items, a set of parenthesis is required. Just as xy^2 is not equivalent to x^2*y^2, -5^2 is not equivalent to -1^2*5^2.

The negative is independent of the number unless included using parenthesis. In this case it is intended to be applied after the exponent is applied.

Chalk up more evidence of the failing of our public education system.

 
-5^2 is not equivalent to -1^2*5^2.
Actually, it is.
Chalk up more evidence of the failing of our public education system.
Dripping with irony here. Just dripping.
Really? The only way that negative gets attached to the 5 and represents the integer negative 5 is by using parenthesis. The original phase showed the operation that gets one the opposite of the integer 5 squared, not the integer negative five squared.Holy crap, I do not see how this turns into a discussion like this and resurfaces years later to the same argument.
 
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-5^2 is not equivalent to -1^2*5^2.
Actually, it is.
Chalk up more evidence of the failing of our public education system.
Dripping with irony here. Just dripping.
Really? The only way that negative gets attached to the 5 and represents the integer negative 5 is by using parenthesis. The original phase showed the operation that gets one the opposite of the integer 5 squared, not the integer negative five squared.Holy crap, I do not see how this turns into a discussion like this and resurfaces years later to the same argument.
:P :lmao:
 
-5^2 is not equivalent to -1^2*5^2.
Actually, it is.
Chalk up more evidence of the failing of our public education system.
Dripping with irony here. Just dripping.
Really? The only way that negative gets attached to the 5 and represents the integer negative 5 is by using parenthesis. The original phase showed the operation that gets one the opposite of the integer 5 squared, not the integer negative five squared.Holy crap, I do not see how this turns into a discussion like this and resurfaces years later to the same argument.
So are you in the -25 or +25 camp?
 
"Please excuse my dear aunt sally" has been the convention for at least a few hundred years.
True.When I say the convention changed I'm referring to where the assumed parens are:

I was taught that -5^2 = negative five squared = -5*-5 = 25 = (-5)^2

It is now taught that -5^2 = negative of five squared = -(5*5) = 25 = -(5)^2
With the convention being taught now -25 is the correct answer. I just will always see 25 first and then -25.
 
2 thoughts.... First, I really can't believe this discussion is this old. 2nd, while I understand that there would be amibguity in a public discussion of this, it amazes me how many people continue to try to "prove" that 25 is correct after have the "math facts" presented rather clearly. I just want a count of how many of those folks are stirring the pot verses how many truly believe they are correct.
I'm 31 and somewhat educated. In every classroom situation where I had to deal with a mathematical operation that included a negative base and an exponent, the rule was always.- Where the base is a negative number and the exponent is a positive, odd number, the resulting value will always be negative.- Where the base is a negative number and the exponent is a positive, even number, the resulting value will always positive.This meant that -5^2 = (-5 * -5) = 25If it is now being taught that:- Where the base is a negative number and the exponent is a positive, odd or even number, the resulting value will always be negative.Then that means -5^2 = (-1 * (5 * 5)) = -25I'm not saying things haven't changed and the second method is now considered correct; I just haven't seen it, and can guarantee from my personal experiences, that had I EVER answered the question of what is -5^2 as -25, the answer would have been considered incorrect by my instructor.
 
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"Please excuse my dear aunt sally" has been the convention for at least a few hundred years.
True.When I say the convention changed I'm referring to where the assumed parens are:

I was taught that -5^2 = negative five squared = -5*-5 = 25 = (-5)^2

It is now taught that -5^2 = negative of five squared = -(5*5) = 25 = -(5)^2
With the convention being taught now -25 is the correct answer. I just will always see 25 first and then -25.
see above, there is no such thing as "assumed parens". To introduce it changes the math.
 
2 thoughts.... First, I really can't believe this discussion is this old. 2nd, while I understand that there would be amibguity in a public discussion of this, it amazes me how many people continue to try to "prove" that 25 is correct after have the "math facts" presented rather clearly. I just want a count of how many of those folks are stirring the pot verses how many truly believe they are correct.
I'm 31 and somewhat educated. In every classroom situation where I had to deal with a mathematical operation that included a negative base and an exponent, the rule was always.- Where the base is a negative number and the exponent is a positive, odd number, the resulting value will always be negative.- Where the base is a negative number and the exponent is a positive, even number, the resulting value will always positive.This meant that -5^2 = (-5 * -5) = 25If it is now being taught that:- Where the base is a negative number and the exponent is a positive, odd or even number, the resulting value will always be negative.Then that means -5^2 = (-1 * (5 * 5)) = -25I'm not saying things haven't changed and the second method is now considered correct; I just haven't seen it, and can guarantee from my personal experiences, that had I EVER answered the question of what is -5^2 as -25, the answer would have been considered incorrect by my instructor.
you are wrong. simple as that. 5 + -5^2 = what?
 
2 thoughts.... First, I really can't believe this discussion is this old. 2nd, while I understand that there would be amibguity in a public discussion of this, it amazes me how many people continue to try to "prove" that 25 is correct after have the "math facts" presented rather clearly. I just want a count of how many of those folks are stirring the pot verses how many truly believe they are correct.
I'm 31 and somewhat educated. In every classroom situation where I had to deal with a mathematical operation that included a negative base and an exponent, the rule was always.- Where the base is a negative number and the exponent is a positive, odd number, the resulting value will always be negative.- Where the base is a negative number and the exponent is a positive, even number, the resulting value will always positive.This meant that -5^2 = (-5 * -5) = 25If it is now being taught that:- Where the base is a negative number and the exponent is a positive, odd or even number, the resulting value will always be negative.Then that means -5^2 = (-1 * (5 * 5)) = -25I'm not saying things haven't changed and the second method is now considered correct; I just haven't seen it, and can guarantee from my personal experiences, that had I EVER answered the question of what is -5^2 as -25, the answer would have been considered incorrect by my instructor.
you are wrong. simple as that. 5 + -5^2 = what?
30. Resolve exponents, then addition.
 
This debate is so beyond a waste of time. Here's a more important question...

I don't think its a stretch to say there needs to be an agreed upon convention so that people can clearly communicate their mathematical thinking in writing. Who should be responsible for determining this convention?

 
2 thoughts.... First, I really can't believe this discussion is this old. 2nd, while I understand that there would be amibguity in a public discussion of this, it amazes me how many people continue to try to "prove" that 25 is correct after have the "math facts" presented rather clearly. I just want a count of how many of those folks are stirring the pot verses how many truly believe they are correct.
I'm 31 and somewhat educated. In every classroom situation where I had to deal with a mathematical operation that included a negative base and an exponent, the rule was always.- Where the base is a negative number and the exponent is a positive, odd number, the resulting value will always be negative.- Where the base is a negative number and the exponent is a positive, even number, the resulting value will always positive.This meant that -5^2 = (-5 * -5) = 25If it is now being taught that:- Where the base is a negative number and the exponent is a positive, odd or even number, the resulting value will always be negative.Then that means -5^2 = (-1 * (5 * 5)) = -25I'm not saying things haven't changed and the second method is now considered correct; I just haven't seen it, and can guarantee from my personal experiences, that had I EVER answered the question of what is -5^2 as -25, the answer would have been considered incorrect by my instructor.
you are wrong. simple as that. 5 + -5^2 = what?
30. Resolve exponents, then addition.
now you are just being a tool, imo.
 
2 thoughts.... First, I really can't believe this discussion is this old. 2nd, while I understand that there would be amibguity in a public discussion of this, it amazes me how many people continue to try to "prove" that 25 is correct after have the "math facts" presented rather clearly. I just want a count of how many of those folks are stirring the pot verses how many truly believe they are correct.
I'm 31 and somewhat educated. In every classroom situation where I had to deal with a mathematical operation that included a negative base and an exponent, the rule was always.- Where the base is a negative number and the exponent is a positive, odd number, the resulting value will always be negative.- Where the base is a negative number and the exponent is a positive, even number, the resulting value will always positive.This meant that -5^2 = (-5 * -5) = 25If it is now being taught that:- Where the base is a negative number and the exponent is a positive, odd or even number, the resulting value will always be negative.Then that means -5^2 = (-1 * (5 * 5)) = -25I'm not saying things haven't changed and the second method is now considered correct; I just haven't seen it, and can guarantee from my personal experiences, that had I EVER answered the question of what is -5^2 as -25, the answer would have been considered incorrect by my instructor.
you are wrong. simple as that. 5 + -5^2 = what?
30. Resolve exponents, then addition.
now you are just being a tool, imo.
I just believe -5 is a number, not an operation on another number, that's all. :wall:
 
"Please excuse my dear aunt sally" has been the convention for at least a few hundred years.
True.When I say the convention changed I'm referring to where the assumed parens are:

I was taught that -5^2 = negative five squared = -5*-5 = 25 = (-5)^2

It is now taught that -5^2 = negative of five squared = -(5*5) = 25 = -(5)^2
With the convention being taught now -25 is the correct answer. I just will always see 25 first and then -25.
Curious - how old are you?
 
Ignoratio Elenchi said:
Bronco Billy said:
Hooper31 said:
Bronco Billy said:
-5^2 is not equivalent to -1^2*5^2.
Actually, it is.
Chalk up more evidence of the failing of our public education system.
Dripping with irony here. Just dripping.
Really? The only way that negative gets attached to the 5 and represents the integer negative 5 is by using parenthesis. The original phase showed the operation that gets one the opposite of the integer 5 squared, not the integer negative five squared.Holy crap, I do not see how this turns into a discussion like this and resurfaces years later to the same argument.
:lmao: :lmao:
:thumbup:Condescending and stupid - a winning combination.
 
The Iguana said:
5 + -5^2 = what?
Slight spinoff, as I was helping my step daughter with her homework the other day. Is this a apprpriate way to write an equation? Obviously you are not including parens to make a point. However, my step daughter will write answers to her homework like this:y = x + - 6which I tell her is incorrect, and that you should write it:y = x - 6to which she says her teacher doesn't care, and doesn't mark it wrong. This isn't an acceptable form of an equation, is it?
 
The Iguana said:
Thorn said:
I just believe -5 is a number, not an operation on another number, that's all. :thumbup:
You are wrong. That is all. :thumbup:
Psychopav said:
Thorn said:
I just believe -5 is a number, not an operation on another number, that's all. :pics:
I believe purple is a number.I also believe the government is out to get me. :ph34r:
The convention is arbitrary, and apparently not universally taught. I fail to see how anyone can be flatly wrong in this discussion.
 
The convention is arbitrary, and apparently not universally taught.
There is a universally accepted convention. Just because you don't know what it is, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.I tried to ask you before, but my question was passed over. Who should be responsible for determining the convention?

 
The Iguana said:
5 + -5^2 = what?
Slight spinoff, as I was helping my step daughter with her homework the other day. Is this a apprpriate way to write an equation? Obviously you are not including parens to make a point. However, my step daughter will write answers to her homework like this:y = x + - 6

which I tell her is incorrect, and that you should write it:

y = x - 6

to which she says her teacher doesn't care, and doesn't mark it wrong. This isn't an acceptable form of an equation, is it?
Neither is incorrect for her purposes. It's usually easier to understand negative numbers when you treat the - sign as an operation, e.g. by converting x + -6 to x - 6, so that's what we usually do. But x + -6 is perfectly acceptable.
 
The Iguana said:
5 + -5^2 = what?
Slight spinoff, as I was helping my step daughter with her homework the other day. Is this a apprpriate way to write an equation? Obviously you are not including parens to make a point. However, my step daughter will write answers to her homework like this:y = x + - 6which I tell her is incorrect, and that you should write it:y = x - 6to which she says her teacher doesn't care, and doesn't mark it wrong. This isn't an acceptable form of an equation, is it?
It is not acceptable. She could write y = x + (-6) though. But even that is a little weird to write.
 
I think we all agree that -5 x -5 = 25

I think we all agree that squaring means multiplying a number by itself

I think we all agree that multiplication is an operation

I think we all agree that operations occur on numbers in a sequence

The only questions are

- whether -5 is a number, or an operation?

- whether 5^2 is a number, or an operation?

- if both are operations, which occurs first?

- if neither are "operations", then how are they resolved when there is conflict?

- As ! mentioned above, who officially determines this order?

I tend to agree that -5^2 should be 25, not -25, because I believe that squaring is an operation, while negativity is a descriptive attribute of a numerical value, not an operation.

But I'm not sure if -x^2 should equal 0-(x^2) or simply x^2. If x were equal to -5, -x to be equal to 5, which implies that the minus sign is an operation, such that -x was equal to -1 * x just like 2x is equal to 2 * x. And 2x implies multiplication.

When we talk about -1 * x with an actual numerical value for x, such as -5, there is no operation being performed. For -1 * 5 to be an operation, -1 would have to also be an operation of -1 * 1. Which in turn would be an operation of -1 * 1 * 1. And that -1 would also be an operation, such that it were equal to -1 * 1 * 1 * 1. And so on. Where does the madness end?

 
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The convention is arbitrary, and apparently not universally taught.
There is a universally accepted convention. Just because you don't know what it is, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.I tried to ask you before, but my question was passed over. Who should be responsible for determining the convention?
I don't question the existence of the convention, but I do question the universallatiousness of this "universally accepted" convention.
 
maybe this will settle it:

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Negative Squared, or Squared Negative?

Date: 10/18/2002 at 22:57:56

From: Tom

Subject: Negative Numbers Squared.

After reading your answer in

  Exponents and Negative numbers

  http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/55709.html

it seems to me that you're ignoring an important fact:  -3 isn't just

-1*3, but a number in its own right, i.e., the number 3 units to the

left of zero.  If that's the case, then shouldn't -3^2 have the value

-3*-3, or 9? 

If -3 was intended to mean -1*3, then shouldn't it be written that way

and not implied?

Thank you for your time.

Tom

Date: 10/19/2002 at 20:44:50

From: Doctor Peterson

Subject: Re: Negative Numbers Squared.

Hi, Tom.

I do recognize that it is possible to disagree on -3^2. Dr. Rick's

answer to a similar question,

  Squaring Negative Numbers

  http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/55713.html

mentions this disagreement. (Dr. Rick is my twin brother, by the way!)

Like you, he notes that if you think of -3 as a single number, it

makes sense for the negation to bind more tightly to the 3 than any

operation. That reasoning makes some sense, though I think other

arguments are stronger. But I do agree that since there _is_ some

reason to read it either way, it is prudent always to include

parentheses one way or the other, to clarify your intent, i.e., to

write either -(3^2) or (-3)^2.

Occasionally people will try to argue the point based on the behaviors

of particular calculators or spreadsheet programs. However, these are

really irrelevant, since they all define their own input formats, and

programmers (of which I am one) are notorious for choosing what's

easiest for them, rather than what is most appropriate for the user.

I've noted in several answers in our archives that some calculators,

and Excel, use non-standard orders of operation without apology. But

calculators in particular just don't use standard algebraic notation

in the first place.

There also seems to be a generational difference, with older people

(including some teachers) claiming that they were taught to interpret

-3^2 as (-3)^2. 

I suspect that what has changed is not the rules governing "order of

operation" (operation precedence), but that schools are introducing

the issue earlier, before students get into algebra proper. That means

that they start by looking at expressions for which it is less clear

why the rules make sense. I think you will rarely find examples of

"-3^2" in practice, because there is no need for mathematicians to

write it. You will find "-x^2" frequently.

If you approach the idea starting with numerical expressions like

-3^2, you are thinking of -3 as a number and assuming that the

expression says to square it. If you approach it first using

variables, having first discovered that "-" in a negative number is

actually an operator, then it is easier to see why -x^2 should be

taken as the negative of the square. So I'll start with the latter,

and then it becomes natural to treat numbers the same way we treat

variables.

Now, in an expression like -x, clearly "-" is a (unary) operator,

which takes a value "x" and converts it to its opposite, or negative.

The expression "-x" is not just a single symbol, but a statement that

something is to be done to a value. As soon as we start combining

symbols like this, as in -x^2 or -x*y, we have to decide what order to

use in evaluating them.

The trouble is that the "order of operations" rules as commonly taught

(PEMDAS) don't mention negatives. So if we are going to go by the

rules, we have to figure out how a negative relates to them. Well,

there are two ways to express a negative in terms of binary

operations. One is as multiplication by -1:

  -x = -1 * x

Treating it this way, clearly

    -x^2 = -1 * x^2 = -(x^2)

That is, since -x means a product, we have to do the exponentiation

first.

The other way to talk about negation is as the additive inverse,

subtracting x from 0:

    -x = 0 - x

(This is why the "-" sign is used for both negation and subtraction.)

Using this view, we see that

    -x^2 = 0 - x^2 = -(x^2)

So both views of negation produce the same interpretation, which does

exponents first, and it is logical to put negation here in the order

of precedence.

But the fact is that there is no authority decreeing these rules;

just as in the grammar of English, we get the "rules" by observing how

the language is actually used, not by deducing them from some first

principles. The order of operations is just the grammar of algebra.

So the real question is, how do mathematicians really interpret

negatives and exponents combined in an expression?

If you look in books, you will rarely find "-3^2" written out, but

you will often find polynomials with negative coefficients. And you

will find that

    -x^2 + 3x - 2

is read as the negative of the square of x, plus three times x, minus

2. I have come to believe that the order of operations is what it is

largely so that polynomials can be written efficiently. If "-x^2"

meant the square of -x, then we would have to write this as

    -(x^2) + 3x - 2

to make it mean what we intend. Since powers are the core of a

polynomial, we ensure that powers are evaluated first, followed by

products and negatives (the two ways to write a coeffient) and then

sums (adding the terms).

Since we can easily see that this is how -x^2 is universally

interpreted, it makes sense to treat -3^2 the same way.

- Doctor Peterson, The Math Forum

  http://mathforum.org/dr.math/

Associated Topics:

Middle School Algebra

Middle School Negative Numbers

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And as I wrote above, I agree with this answer when we talk about variables. But he fails to isolate the variable correctly. -x^2 is equal to -(x^2). I totally agree with this. This is the simplest way to allow someone to convey the value of -1 times the result of x^2 without using parentheses.

But -5^2 is not the same as -x^2 because -5 is a number.

-5^2 is the same as x^2, where x is equal to -5. And in that case, x^2 is equal to 25.

-5^2 really should be equal to 25. And -x^2 really should be equal to -1* x^2. I'm fine with having a convention that disagrees with this interpretation, but the convention does not help with clear mathematical communication.

 
The Iguana said:
Could be but I'm of a similar age and a math geek and a friend of much bigger math geeks myself. Some have been momentarily stumped by the problem and/or not seen it clearly but none have tried to argue the math has changed or anything of the sort. MT puts it pretty clearly in that it is somewhat ambiguous from a general population stand point. I'd guess it was put on the test as a "trick question" as well but the rules of math are still the same as they always have been. I still think the easiest way to see it is in the "proof" I put forth long ago...-5^2 = xyou can add anything you want to one side as long as you do it to the other as well...5 + -5^2 = 5 + xdoing should make it obvious that the answer is -25 to me. the only way that it = 25 is if you express it this way:5+ (-5)^2 = 5 + xThat is to say that the - can't be seperated from the 5. For this to have ever been true, there would have to be some kind of "implied ()" around the -5 to begin with and/or you have to change the rules of accepted math principles. I can still picture my high school math teacher writing this kind of thing on the board and then immediately erasing it saying that it "would burn your eyes out" if he left it up there too long. he was an odd guy but a funny one.
You do realize that negative five is also written as (-1)*(5). Substitute -5 with that in your initial equation and see where you get.
 
The convention is arbitrary, and apparently not universally taught.
There is a universally accepted convention. Just because you don't know what it is, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.I tried to ask you before, but my question was passed over. Who should be responsible for determining the convention?
It is clearly not universally accepted, see this thread.I didn't realize that question was directed at me. Do mathematicians have a national association?

 
The Iguana said:
Could be but I'm of a similar age and a math geek and a friend of much bigger math geeks myself. Some have been momentarily stumped by the problem and/or not seen it clearly but none have tried to argue the math has changed or anything of the sort. MT puts it pretty clearly in that it is somewhat ambiguous from a general population stand point. I'd guess it was put on the test as a "trick question" as well but the rules of math are still the same as they always have been. I still think the easiest way to see it is in the "proof" I put forth long ago...-5^2 = xyou can add anything you want to one side as long as you do it to the other as well...5 + -5^2 = 5 + xdoing should make it obvious that the answer is -25 to me. the only way that it = 25 is if you express it this way:5+ (-5)^2 = 5 + xThat is to say that the - can't be seperated from the 5. For this to have ever been true, there would have to be some kind of "implied ()" around the -5 to begin with and/or you have to change the rules of accepted math principles. I can still picture my high school math teacher writing this kind of thing on the board and then immediately erasing it saying that it "would burn your eyes out" if he left it up there too long. he was an odd guy but a funny one.
You do realize that negative five is also written as (-1)*(5). Substitute -5 with that in your initial equation and see where you get.
-5 is not "written as" -1*5. However, -1*5 = -5. (-1*5) = -5(-1*5) ^2 = 25The same thing is true for other statements. 17-22 = -5. (17-22) ^2 = 25We can prove this by cross multiplying if you like. (17*17) -(22*17)-(22*17) +(22*22) = 289-374-374+484 = 25. Do it out on your calculator if you like. Note that this does not mean that 17 - (22^2) = 25. It clearly doesn't. Similarly, (-1 * 5) ^2 does not equal (-1) * (5^2). It's totally valid to substitute equal things for one another. Let's just do it correctly.
 
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The Iguana said:
5 + -5^2 = what?
Slight spinoff, as I was helping my step daughter with her homework the other day. Is this a apprpriate way to write an equation? Obviously you are not including parens to make a point. However, my step daughter will write answers to her homework like this:y = x + - 6which I tell her is incorrect, and that you should write it:y = x - 6to which she says her teacher doesn't care, and doesn't mark it wrong. This isn't an acceptable form of an equation, is it?
either is correct. Most teachers will specify if an answer should be written in "simplified" or "normalized" form or something similar. y = x-6 is more "normalized" but both answers are correct. As an anal retentive math geek, I'd never leave an answer as y = x + - 6.
 
The convention is arbitrary, and apparently not universally taught.
There is a universally accepted convention. Just because you don't know what it is, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.I tried to ask you before, but my question was passed over. Who should be responsible for determining the convention?
I don't question the existence of the convention, but I do question the universallatiousness of this "universally accepted" convention.
This thread is a clear demonstration of that fact.
 
The convention is arbitrary, and apparently not universally taught.
There is a universally accepted convention. Just because you don't know what it is, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.I tried to ask you before, but my question was passed over. Who should be responsible for determining the convention?
I don't question the existence of the convention, but I do question the universallatiousness of this "universally accepted" convention.
This thread is a clear demonstration of that fact.
The questioning is unquestionable, imo.
 
The Iguana said:
Could be but I'm of a similar age and a math geek and a friend of much bigger math geeks myself. Some have been momentarily stumped by the problem and/or not seen it clearly but none have tried to argue the math has changed or anything of the sort. MT puts it pretty clearly in that it is somewhat ambiguous from a general population stand point. I'd guess it was put on the test as a "trick question" as well but the rules of math are still the same as they always have been. I still think the easiest way to see it is in the "proof" I put forth long ago...-5^2 = xyou can add anything you want to one side as long as you do it to the other as well...5 + -5^2 = 5 + xdoing should make it obvious that the answer is -25 to me. the only way that it = 25 is if you express it this way:5+ (-5)^2 = 5 + xThat is to say that the - can't be seperated from the 5. For this to have ever been true, there would have to be some kind of "implied ()" around the -5 to begin with and/or you have to change the rules of accepted math principles. I can still picture my high school math teacher writing this kind of thing on the board and then immediately erasing it saying that it "would burn your eyes out" if he left it up there too long. he was an odd guy but a funny one.
You do realize that negative five is also written as (-1)*(5). Substitute -5 with that in your initial equation and see where you get.
-5 is not "written as" -1*5. However, -1*5 = -5. (-1*5) = -5(-1*5) ^2 = 25The same thing is true for other statements. 17-22 = -5. (17-22) ^2 = 25We can prove this by cross multiplying if you like. (17*17) -(22*17)-(22*17) +(22*22) = 289-374-374+484 = 25. Do it out on your calculator if you like. Note that this does not mean that 17 - (22^2) = 25. It clearly doesn't. Similarly, (-1 * 5) ^2 does not equal (-1) * (5^2). It's totally valid to substitute equal things for one another. Let's just do it correctly.
It may not be standard convention, but yes, negative five can certainly be written as (-1)*(5). And I wrote in that fashion for a reason. Substituting that math phrase for negative five in his initial equation produces the result in a different manner.[(-1)*(5)]^2 = x[(-1)^2] * [(5)^2] = x1 * 25 = x25 = xThere wont really ever be a single convention on this though, ultimately it winds up being computer programmers installing their own preferences and not some national governing body. And thats the level where people will interact with these issues most regularly, therefore that is where the common usage will be developed for each individual.
 
The Iguana said:
5 + -5^2 = what?
Slight spinoff, as I was helping my step daughter with her homework the other day. Is this a apprpriate way to write an equation? Obviously you are not including parens to make a point. However, my step daughter will write answers to her homework like this:y = x + - 6which I tell her is incorrect, and that you should write it:y = x - 6to which she says her teacher doesn't care, and doesn't mark it wrong. This isn't an acceptable form of an equation, is it?
either is correct. Most teachers will specify if an answer should be written in "simplified" or "normalized" form or something similar. y = x-6 is more "normalized" but both answers are correct. As an anal retentive math geek, I'd never leave an answer as y = x + - 6.
So you're telling me I can't go off on her teacher for teaching bad habits? :goodposting:
 
The convention is arbitrary, and apparently not universally taught.
There is a universally accepted convention. Just because you don't know what it is, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.I tried to ask you before, but my question was passed over. Who should be responsible for determining the convention?
I don't question the existence of the convention, but I do question the universallatiousness of this "universally accepted" convention.
This thread is a clear demonstration of that fact.
not necessarily. The thread is a clear demonstration that the problem stated can be seen as ambiguous by the masses. It's why if you are doing any kind of real world calculation and/or documentation, you better make damn sure you are clear in your meaning if the calculation has any importance at all. Otherwise it's just 8 billion posts that have no value because the uninformed masses refuse to accept the simple truth as it has been presented.
 
The Iguana said:
5 + -5^2 = what?
Slight spinoff, as I was helping my step daughter with her homework the other day. Is this a apprpriate way to write an equation? Obviously you are not including parens to make a point. However, my step daughter will write answers to her homework like this:y = x + - 6which I tell her is incorrect, and that you should write it:y = x - 6to which she says her teacher doesn't care, and doesn't mark it wrong. This isn't an acceptable form of an equation, is it?
either is correct. Most teachers will specify if an answer should be written in "simplified" or "normalized" form or something similar. y = x-6 is more "normalized" but both answers are correct. As an anal retentive math geek, I'd never leave an answer as y = x + - 6.
So you're telling me I can't go off on her teacher for teaching bad habits? :goodposting:
No, depending on what grade she is in, I'd probably say something to the teacher about teaching her bad habits. A good teacher will want answers in the simplest form IMO. Accepting y = x+-6 is encouraging lazy behavior that will have her not sure what -5^2 should equal when she is older. She will probably grow up to think that 25 is an acceptable answer.
 
The convention is arbitrary, and apparently not universally taught.
There is a universally accepted convention. Just because you don't know what it is, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.I tried to ask you before, but my question was passed over. Who should be responsible for determining the convention?
A tribunal comprised of LHUCKS, Woz and timschochet.That'll keep this thread going for eons.

 
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The convention is arbitrary, and apparently not universally taught.
There is a universally accepted convention. Just because you don't know what it is, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.I tried to ask you before, but my question was passed over. Who should be responsible for determining the convention?
It is clearly not universally accepted, see this thread.I didn't realize that question was directed at me. Do mathematicians have a national association?
Yes. NAMA. They have a ConventionCon every year in San Diego where they spend the week coming up with new conventions. I hear next year, they're going to put denominators on top of numerators.

 
The convention is arbitrary, and apparently not universally taught.
There is a universally accepted convention. Just because you don't know what it is, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.I tried to ask you before, but my question was passed over. Who should be responsible for determining the convention?
I don't question the existence of the convention, but I do question the universallatiousness of this "universally accepted" convention.
This thread is a clear demonstration of that fact.
not necessarily. The thread is a clear demonstration that the problem stated can be seen as ambiguous by the masses. It's why if you are doing any kind of real world calculation and/or documentation, you better make damn sure you are clear in your meaning if the calculation has any importance at all. Otherwise it's just 8 billion posts that have no value because the uninformed masses refuse to accept the simple truth as it has been presented.
If you're doing a real world calculation and you rely on the conventions of the program you're using - you deserve what you get. Depending on which program you'd use you can get either answer in return.
 
The Iguana said:
5 + -5^2 = what?
Slight spinoff, as I was helping my step daughter with her homework the other day. Is this a apprpriate way to write an equation? Obviously you are not including parens to make a point. However, my step daughter will write answers to her homework like this:y = x + - 6which I tell her is incorrect, and that you should write it:y = x - 6to which she says her teacher doesn't care, and doesn't mark it wrong. This isn't an acceptable form of an equation, is it?
either is correct. Most teachers will specify if an answer should be written in "simplified" or "normalized" form or something similar. y = x-6 is more "normalized" but both answers are correct. As an anal retentive math geek, I'd never leave an answer as y = x + - 6.
So you're telling me I can't go off on her teacher for teaching bad habits? :rolleyes:
No, depending on what grade she is in, I'd probably say something to the teacher about teaching her bad habits. A good teacher will want answers in the simplest form IMO. Accepting y = x+-6 is encouraging lazy behavior that will have her not sure what -5^2 should equal when she is older. She will probably grow up to think that 25 is an acceptable answer.
The problem isn't that she would think 25 is an acceptable answer, its that she'd believe -5^2 is an acceptable question.
 
If you're doing a real world calculation and you rely on the conventions of the program you're using - you deserve what you get. Depending on which program you'd use you can get either answer in return.
I was speaking of your own documentation rather than a program, etc. If you are documenting any kind of solution, you better be clear.
 
The Iguana said:
Could be but I'm of a similar age and a math geek and a friend of much bigger math geeks myself. Some have been momentarily stumped by the problem and/or not seen it clearly but none have tried to argue the math has changed or anything of the sort. MT puts it pretty clearly in that it is somewhat ambiguous from a general population stand point. I'd guess it was put on the test as a "trick question" as well but the rules of math are still the same as they always have been. I still think the easiest way to see it is in the "proof" I put forth long ago...-5^2 = xyou can add anything you want to one side as long as you do it to the other as well...5 + -5^2 = 5 + xdoing should make it obvious that the answer is -25 to me. the only way that it = 25 is if you express it this way:5+ (-5)^2 = 5 + xThat is to say that the - can't be seperated from the 5. For this to have ever been true, there would have to be some kind of "implied ()" around the -5 to begin with and/or you have to change the rules of accepted math principles. I can still picture my high school math teacher writing this kind of thing on the board and then immediately erasing it saying that it "would burn your eyes out" if he left it up there too long. he was an odd guy but a funny one.
You do realize that negative five is also written as (-1)*(5). Substitute -5 with that in your initial equation and see where you get.
-5 is not "written as" -1*5. However, -1*5 = -5. (-1*5) = -5(-1*5) ^2 = 25The same thing is true for other statements. 17-22 = -5. (17-22) ^2 = 25We can prove this by cross multiplying if you like. (17*17) -(22*17)-(22*17) +(22*22) = 289-374-374+484 = 25. Do it out on your calculator if you like. Note that this does not mean that 17 - (22^2) = 25. It clearly doesn't. Similarly, (-1 * 5) ^2 does not equal (-1) * (5^2). It's totally valid to substitute equal things for one another. Let's just do it correctly.
It may not be standard convention, but yes, negative five can certainly be written as (-1)*(5). And I wrote in that fashion for a reason. Substituting that math phrase for negative five in his initial equation produces the result in a different manner.[(-1)*(5)]^2 = x[(-1)^2] * [(5)^2] = x1 * 25 = x25 = xThere wont really ever be a single convention on this though, ultimately it winds up being computer programmers installing their own preferences and not some national governing body. And thats the level where people will interact with these issues most regularly, therefore that is where the common usage will be developed for each individual.
I understand that you believe it, but I'm going to say it again. -5 cannot be "written as" -1*5. There's no such thing as "written as". It's an ambiguous concept. If you mean that -5 is EQUAL TO -1*5, I agree with that statement. Equals has a very specific meaning, and I don't think we should stray from it. I agree that -5^2 = 25, though, so there's not much point in debating it further.
 

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