Del Griffith
Footballguy
Founding Fathers spinning in their graves...
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Sean Payton suspended 1 year (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Ministry of Pain
- Start date
Power Monster
The Midnight Stalker
Durbin is a tool. This is just a joke. A nightmare. Please tell me how players in the NFL are going to play the game without hurting someone? This is a contact sport. With all the officials on the field for the past Saint games how come they did not see the "dirty play"? Another move by Emporer Goddell to water down the NFL and pave the way for a game of lame.
RUSF18
Footballguy
Nicely done. Love reading these justifications. "No, YOU don't understand". Yes we do. It's because we are removed from it, and you are 1000% involved in it, that we can be logical about it and you cannot. Remember hearing the same justification for why Paterno didn't deserve to lose his job.Well put. Most ethical people will never get this.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Great post, definitely helps to understand the feelings there. I agree, the team will regroup. Drew Brees is not going to be suspended, just hire a new coach and bombs away.
Vicktimized
Footballguy
LOL ... dude, it's fandom. This isn't new ground.Payton didn't just win a Super Bowl for New Orleans, he basically led the charge in 2006 as the team rose and gave a collapsed city something to rally around. Even if Saints fans have a little levity and admit he screwed up, it's not crazy to expect them to not throw Payton overboard for what, obviously, was a major gaffe.
Gadabout
Footballguy
Actually, you don't, but thanks for playing.Love reading these justifications. "No, YOU don't understand". Yes we do.
Pnishthm
Footballguy
Where in my post did I justify anything? I was explaining to GREG (not you) as to what Saints fans are feeling about our coach and our team. I started by saying you have to be a Saints fan to understand our thought process. Obviously you are not so obviously you wouldn't. Nowhere in this post did I say anything about right, wrong or indifferent. You may now jump back on your soap box.Nicely done. Love reading these justifications. "No, YOU don't understand". Yes we do. It's because we are removed from it, and you are 1000% involved in it, that we can be logical about it and you cannot. Remember hearing the same justification for why Paterno didn't deserve to lose his job.
GregR
Footballguy
I appreciate the post and your honesty about it. The rest of us haven't lived through the exact same things... but I think most of us can relate to it easily enough to understand well how you feel. I understand not turning your back on Payton or the team. I don't think you should. No one should stop being a fan of the team over this. I'm still going to be cheering for them in most of their matchups.
But I do have a hard time when people (not necessarily you) engage in blind defense out of fandom. Or worse, blind denial and naysaying. There are plenty of Saints fans who have been pretty reasonable about the whole matter. Rare has been the poster I felt like I needed a rabies vaccination after their "contribution".
I kind of equate it with having a kid who committed a crime. I'm not going to stop loving him. But if he did it, I'm not going to white wash it over just because I love him. I'm going to demand for him to turn things around.
After thinking about this, a full year for Payton makes the most sense for everyone.
Let's say it was an 8 game suspension. What are the saints going to do for those 8 games? Presumably have an interim coach, who would either implement Payton's offense, or run something different. If he runs Payton's offense it would be very likely that Payton was really running things behind the scenes, thus defeating the purpose of the suspension. If he runs his own offense, then when Payton comes back mid year, the Saints would have to shift to Payton's game plans. That would be disruptive to the saints.
Better to get a coach in now, for the full season, and just get things in place, with some continuity, without tempting Payton to violate the terms of the suspension.
Let's say it was an 8 game suspension. What are the saints going to do for those 8 games? Presumably have an interim coach, who would either implement Payton's offense, or run something different. If he runs Payton's offense it would be very likely that Payton was really running things behind the scenes, thus defeating the purpose of the suspension. If he runs his own offense, then when Payton comes back mid year, the Saints would have to shift to Payton's game plans. That would be disruptive to the saints.
Better to get a coach in now, for the full season, and just get things in place, with some continuity, without tempting Payton to violate the terms of the suspension.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
Goodell should have taken two 1st and two 2nd round picks away in addition to the suspensions. If you really want to hurt a team you do it with taking away picks. The commish didn't hurt the Saints enough by only taking two 2nd rd picks away from them.
Last edited by a moderator:
omally
Footballguy
Taking away their second round pick for this coming draft is essentially taking away their first round pick, because they don't have a first round pick this year. I think the punishment is fair, and the commish got his point across loud and clear.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
So now it's come out that the Packers were actually busted by the NFL in 2007 for a bounty system. They didn't have bounties for hurting other players though and they made sure to eliminate it right away. So they got away with no punishments.
Have to wonder what the punishments would have been if the Saints had simply admitted to what they were doing and eliminated it right away.
LINK
Have to wonder what the punishments would have been if the Saints had simply admitted to what they were doing and eliminated it right away.
LINK
Donnybrook
Footballguy
I would take Favre performance vs the Saints over Tom Brady's performance vs the Ravens in the championship game. The difference was the Saints made Favre pay for that mistake and the Ravens failed to make Brady pay. It proves to me that their is a fine line between being a goat and a hero in the NFL and it is measured only by a W or an L.
ATC1
Footballguy
Gooddell had to make the picks a punishment close to the spygate incident. Taking away future picks hurts the future of the franchise that may or may not include the Saints staff that were in violation of team rules to begin with. He wanted to take a 1st, but there was only a 2nd, so he took 2 2nds. Gooddell had to make a statement and in so the punishment had to be severe. He did that affecting the 2012 Saints team. The only thing that surprised me was the suspension of Payton for a full calender year where he can not have any contact with the front office with decisions that will affect the franchise beyond his year suspension.
ATC1
Footballguy
This continues to be the argument from Saints fans I just don't understand. They did not violate the rules of the game for trying to hurt opposing players.
Doug B
Footballguy
Goodell wasn't trying to hurt the team excessively. The punhishments have been people-based rather than organization-based. Note also that the organizational fine for Bountygate ($500K) is less than Robert Kraft paid for Spygate ($750K).
Die hard Saints fan here and season ticket holder.I will always thank Payton and the organization for the Super Bowl win. I still think we would have won it w/o the bounty system in place. Hell, the last 2 years; we've had it in place and the defense couldn't tackle anyone.All that being said, Sean Payton et all owes the team, fans and the city a huge apology. If they would have come clean about everything right away and stopped it, they would have been penalized but it wouldn't have been nearly as severe. Because of his arrogance and holier than thou attitude; Payton basically told Benson, Goodell and the NFL to screw off. If my boss told me to stop it, and I didn't and then lied about it; my ### would have been fired.Because Payton basically operated without any care or thought about the potential consequences; he put us in this place. I'm disgusted and embarrased.I don't know how anyone could read the 15 bullet points from the NFL and not think anything dissimilar. I'll still be a die hard fan and support the team, but I'm not going to just absolve Payton of his negligence.
Last edited by a moderator:
sho nuff
Footballguy
Mentioned this early on in this.They had payments to keep players under things...like holding Peterson under 100 yards. When it came out (its not just now coming out) Vikings fans got mad because I believe in one of those games Peterson got hurt.'GroveDiesel said:
The NFL told GB not to do it anymore...they quit doing it.
And yes, I agree the punishments would have been slim to none if they had admitted it and quit when first told to.
valhallan
Footballguy
Well put. I feel the same way. I still think we were good enough to win without the bounty system so the Super Bowl is not tainted at all. However our coach's conduct in handling this matter is truly embarrassing. He needs the full year off to figure things out. It's not on the same scale, but this somewhat reminds me of how Tom Coughlin took so much flak about being a hardass that he was finally forced to change. Unfortunately for us as fans, Payton is much more stubborn and had to have a scandal blow up in his face for him to learn.'Tiger Fan said:
Donnybrook
Footballguy
I really feel sorry for Sean Payton. He going to hard time affording Vicodin without a wage and an NFL supplier.
fatness
Footballguy
Gregg has some leftover bounty money. He'll cover it for Sean.
GregR
Footballguy
I wouldn't say taking away their 2nd round pick is essentially taking away a 1st round pick they already used to improve their team. That's like saying, "I had two bills, a $20 and a $10. I bought something with the $20. So now if you steal my $10 bill it's like you stole $20 from me."They had a first round pick this year and used it to get Mark Ingram. Taking away Ingram would be essentially taking away their 1st round pick (and last year's 2nd round pick).I think the draft picks taken were fair though. I predicted around a 1st and a middle pick like a 3rd/4th. I think two 2nds are about equivalent.'omally said:
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
From PFT:
ATC1
Footballguy
drfeelgood
Footballguy
The Saints being asked to stop their bounty program, and then continuing it and lying about it, is a big finger to the NFL office as well.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
Post 317 is fandom with perspective and reason. You can embrace all that Payton has done and what the Saints have represented, but still hold a higher moral ground here. Being a fan doesn't mean you always have to be an idiot. I think Tiger Fan demonstrated exactly how to navigate your love of team, while holding responsible the ones who are truly responsible for the pain that is now being inflicted on the organization (e.g., Payton, Williams, Loomis, etc).'Vicktimized said:
ATC1
Footballguy
agreed.
Riffraff
Footballguy
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Rationalization hamsters running wild in here by the Saints fans. 
GregR
Footballguy
Good PFT article discussing why the NFL didn't find all the evidence of the bounty program the first time around. The conclusion reached is:
I think this is very likely true. It's what happened with the Patriots when they were caught videotaping in Green Bay the year before Spygate broke. And why I take with a grain of salt claims the NFL needs to go investigate every team if they are going to punish the Saints. It ain't gonna happen.I do wonder if Goodell knew back in 2010 how far down the rabbit hole went though. I think the ex-felon making payments to players would have me REALLY uncomfortable if I was commish. I wouldn't be surprised if they expected to find a player-run bonus system, but not find outright announced pre-game bounties for knockouts and other aspects like they did.
Last edited by a moderator:
Statcruncher
Footballguy
If they really wanted to punish the Saints they should have forced Matt Millen to run their draft the next 2 years.
psychobillies
Footballguy
valhallan
Footballguy
Hmm. Payton often points to Parcells as his mentor. I could see it happening. Not sure I'd want it as a Saints fan, though.
psychobillies
Footballguy
I'd say Parcells to New Orleans makes too much sense not to happen. Coach and GM problem solved. Temporary situation that Payton is cool with, and Parcells gets to take over a contender for one more shot at a ring.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
I don't see the point of bringing in Parcells. Why can't Carmichael or Spagnuolo handle the job?
valhallan
Footballguy
Payton's control-freak nature.
JohnnyRobinsonForCanton
Footballguy
In my opinion, I think the Saints are lucky that was all they got taken away from them and that it wasn't worse.
Gadabout
Footballguy
Jason Wood
Zoo York
I guess I just don't think Parcells -- even at his best -- is worth the effort. But I realize I'm in the minority.
Doug B
Footballguy
Parcells maybe makes sense as a "consultant" type that can help lighten the HC administrative burden of someone who is also a coordinator (whether it's Carmichael or Spagnuolo). Think of Parcells, if brought in, as potentially being the most hands-off HC in league history. That kind of thing would never have been in Parcell's nature 20 years ago ... but now, in virtual retirement? Maybe so.Don't really think Parcells is needed in the front office, except perhaps in the loosest of advisory roles. I think Loomis' staff can handle the front-office ship through September and October.
Last edited by a moderator:
Jason Wood
Zoo York
Agreed. I've heard several people, including Bill Polian, say that the way Loomis' suspension was structured is the one silver lining b/c they let him handle the draft and free agency, and that for GMs, much of the time Loomis will be sidelined is generally the down time outside of a case where you may be negotiating an in-season extension for someone and/or handling roster additions to offset injuries as they arise.
Doug B
Footballguy
Love these posts. You really think Goodell was truly interested in making a franchise non-competitive, for any reason?The NFL's true death penalty -- although one that Goodell cannot himself invoke -- is revoking a franchise and shifting it to another owner (and making the team league-owned, if necessary in the short term). The league will never, ever punish a team to the point of non-competitiveness.
RUSF18
Footballguy
There's no gray area where punishing a team does or doesn't involve removing ownership?
psychobillies
Footballguy
This would be something I think Parcells would handle well, and why I think he would be a good fit in this role. Part coach/part GM. Spags runs the defense, Carmichael the offense, and Parcells oversees other jobs that a head coach handles. If someone needs to be cut, or brought in, let him handle it. It all happens with everybody's blessing, and after this year, he steps aside.
Doug B
Footballguy
No, because each and every team has to be left competitive. That's just good business from the NFL's point of view. Every team is part of the NFL brand, and every team has to able to be sold as having a shot each year.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
I'm giving Payton the Coach of the Year award right now. 
I'm giving Payton the Coach of the Year award right now.
