I highly doubt that. But most of the idiocy comes from the "Martin was just a child/Zimmerman is crazy/all I need to know is that Martin was unarmed/Zimmerman stalked Martin/there's no way self-defense applies/that's just journalism 101" crowd.
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Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Yenrub
- Start date
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
If anything, it's biased to dismiss actual evidence of Z's history as sketchy and trump up what Martin might have done in the future because they found an empty pot baggie in his bookbag.
Besides the bolded, let's go with the fact that his cousin asked him about swinging at a bus driver. Let's add the inital responses of his friends celebrating the fact that he hurt Zimmerman before dying.Let's look at how violent criminals start their careers...usually with relatively petty theft, graffiti, maybe dealing pot. These things certainly aren't reliable indicators of a violent future, but they are most certainly indicators.What does any of this have to do with whether or not Martin had a violent history or not?Absolutely nothing...except that violent criminals usually START with non-violent crimes. Andto the idea that the jewelry was aquired honestly.
Martin didn't have a violent past. But those suggesting he was incapable of such are either off their d&%%#^ rocker or ridicualously biased. Meanwhile, the same folks attack Zimmerman as a violent man, yet in the past 6 or 7 years he's done nothing but good. The only real evidance of this "violent tendency" is both years old and relatively benign...
AT THE VERY LEAST, it's certainly no less benign than dealing pot or stealing jewelry. Either you conclude they both have a checkered past, or you conclude neither has much inclination towards violence and look for other answers. Concluding Z was violent while T was innocent is both ludicrous and biased.
TexanFan02
Footballguy
Besides the bolded, let's go with the fact that his cousin asked him about swinging at a bus driver. Let's add the inital responses of his friends celebrating the fact that he hurt Zimmerman before dying.Let's look at how violent criminals start their careers...usually with relatively petty theft, graffiti, maybe dealing pot. These things certainly aren't reliable indicators of a violent future, but they are most certainly indicators.What does any of this have to do with whether or not Martin had a violent history or not?Absolutely nothing...except that violent criminals usually START with non-violent crimes. And
Martin didn't have a violent past. But those suggesting he was incapable of such are either off their d&%%#^ rocker or ridicualously biased. Meanwhile, the same folks attack Zimmerman as a violent man, yet in the past 6 or 7 years he's done nothing but good. The only real evidance of this "violent tendency" is both years old and relatively benign...
AT THE VERY LEAST, it's certainly no less benign than dealing pot or stealing jewelry. Either you conclude they both have a checkered past, or you conclude neither has much inclination towards violence and look for other answers. Concluding Z was violent while T was innocent is both ludicrous and biased.
Yep.
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Neither of their pasts is all that compelling as "evidance". My point isn't that we should ignore Z's past, but that we should either ignore them both, or look more closely at both.
Clifford
Footballguy
Empty pot baggie? Man, you guys would have had my head when I was a teenager.
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
That's all you had to say. But instead you go back to trumping up Martin's potential for violence in the future based on what? Drawing some graffiti and his friends saying that at least he got some good shots in before he died? Really?
kentric
Footballguy
I think Renesauz is trying to argue that you have to look at things from a relative basis. His argument is that if you look at Z as having violent past that you could also look at Trayvon as having violent tendencies. Also, if you look at Trayvon's past as non-violent you should also consider Z as having a non-violent past. But then he can confirm this or not.
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
Their pasts aren't tied to each other.
TexanFan02
Footballguy
Neofight
Footballguy
Christo Alias?
dparker713
Footballguy
How is that at all relevant to whether Z's statement should upset someone?
dparker713
Footballguy
There are situations where an attorney must allow a client to take the stand and lie.
Neofight
Footballguy
All we know he felt was anger and a sense of duty, based on his own words.
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As I clearly stated, I don't think the distinction is a basis for people to be mad and anyone who is mad is just looking for a reason to stay made. And it isn't Zimmerman's attorney's job to make Martin's parents happy.
What situations?
Nix v. Whiteside, 475 U.S. 157 (1986) - "under no circumstance may a lawyer either advocate or passively tolerate a client's giving false testimony. This, of course, is consistent with the governance of trial conduct in what we have long called "a search for truth." The suggestion sometimes made that "a lawyer must believe his client, not judge him," in no sense means a lawyer can honorably be a party to or in any way give aid to presenting known perjury."
TexanFan02
Footballguy
Looks like O'Mara's in trouble.
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
We argued that race had nothing to do with the case, tim. You were flipping out saying this was ALL about race when race has nothing to do with it. Just check the affidavit. That is why we wanted that discussion elsewhere. SYG and gun ownership are pertinent to this case and those discussions could be interesting as they apply. I'd rather leave the 2nd amendment out of this. But not SYG. I haven't said anything negative about SYG laws. They are not the same in every state. Apparently, Florida's has some issues and the governor has it being looked at. We have a right to defend ourselves. Stand your ground (and Christo or some other legalezer will likely patch this up) simply removes the duty to retreat and extends rights to public areas. I don't have a problem with that. I would call it good legislation. My sense is the issue in Florida is immunity from arrest, civil action, and even trial has all been worked in. As Christo pointed out in California, not only is standing your ground accepted by many decades of precedent decisions, but you even have the right to pursue your assailant to some degree.
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
Yep, sorry TF02 the judge concurred with the defense that this past history is very minor. He went out of his way to explain just how minor a little run in at "The Library" in college town is. His history is not going to hurt him and if the prosecution pushes it, they will look like fools, so I expect that.
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
Until proven guilty, Zimmerman is just a gun-toting, failed, wannabe cop with a desperate need to feel like a hero. So let's not judge
dparker713
Footballguy
That is not the holding of that case.MRPC Rule 3.3(A)(3)
And that is what you want to pass off as a well-reasoned fair-minded quote. The statements made by the pro-Martin folks are constantly inflammatory and outrageously spun and often times not even true. That is why Christo calls mostly the pro-Martin posts out. The emotion get in the way of logic. They will deny, but the posters are hopelessly emotionally tied to their position and seem unable to look at it in a fair manner. Tim tries and comes back to well-reasoned responses on occasions, but far too often Tim is also making posts which are pretty illogical assertions.
I really don't see how that supports your ridiculous position that "[t]here are situations where an attorney must allow a client to take the stand and lie."
dparker713
Footballguy
You might want to read the whole section quoted.
Only a peanut gallery lawyer, but doesn't the statement at the end (A lawyer may refuse to offer evidence, other than the testimony of a defendant in a criminal matter, that the lawyer reasonably believes is false.) indicate that the clients testimony is exempt from the rule. That seems to be an exception.
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
And this coming from YOU
I did. And that doesn't change anything. If the lawyer doesn't know it's a lie, he's not letting his client get on the stand and lie. Besides, the MRPC is just that, a model. Florida doesn't include that provision in its Rules of Professional Conduct:
Not if the lawyer knows it to be a lie. And what started this was some dumb poster saying that the testimony was a "well rehearsed lie." Implying that the attorney had knowledge and helped prepare false testimony.
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dparker713
Footballguy
Even the evidence you offer in support of your contention undercuts you. Again, try reading the whole quote.
Carolina Hustler
Footballguy
Trayvon didn't have to want to kill him.. Zimmerman most likely wasn't trying to kill Tray..
Carolina Hustler
Footballguy
Guys that commit "suicide by cop" don't shoot themselves either.. Guys who end up in prison didn't jail themselves.. When you were a child, you didn't spank yourself..But at some point there are consequences for your actions. You put someone in a position where they feel like shooting is their only option, you contributed to getting yourself shot..
Carolina Hustler
Footballguy
No one said he deserved to die accept you..
timschochet
Footballguy
I don't recall you directly saying it, but you've certainly implied it several times in this thread.
Carolina Hustler
Footballguy
Not to mention taking part in refing fights at school and potentially taking a swing at a bus driver..
Carolina Hustler
Footballguy
Are you saying Zimmerman is a violent person, and/or has violent tendencies?
Are you saying Trayvon is not a violent person, and does not have violent tendencies..
Carolina Hustler
Footballguy
No, you're wrong because you're taking what I said out of context. I was responding to someone else..I directly answered this question earlier in the thread.. You read it, I know you did..
No one has implied that Trayvon deserved to die.. That's a mob made straw man..
GreatLakesMike
Footballguy
I'm waiting for the punch line myself.
There is no situation where an attorney must allow a client to take the stand and lie. If the client wants to testify and the attorney doesn't know that some or all of the testimony is a lie he can't stop the client from testifying. But that's not allowing a client to lie.I'm waiting for the punch line myself.
dparker713
Footballguy
You just quoted a rule of conduct that said when the court so orders a lawyer must due exactly that."A lawyer may not offer testimony that the lawyer knows to be false in the form of a narrative unless so ordered by the tribunal."There is no situation where an attorney must allow a client to take the stand and lie. If the client wants to testify and the attorney doesn't know that some or all of the testimony is a lie he can't stop the client from testifying. But that's not allowing a client to lie.I'm waiting for the punch line myself.
ETA: I think someone needs more Ethics CLE.
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TexanFan02
Footballguy
You think she'll be on the Prosecution's witness list?
Mr. Pickles
Footballguy
The antithesis of this was on full display in the Casey Anthony trial. I think Baez got a pass since he was porking his client.
Admissibility of that kind of testimony could be an interesting fight. The admissibility will be determined on whether that type of science is highly accepted and/or has a strong scientific basis and what case law is applied.
Carolina Hustler
Footballguy
Watched your link.. What was in there that anyone here should disagree with, or that suggests Zimmerman will kill again? Please tell me you're not finding those conclusions based on that link.. If so, you're a space cadet..She basically says he shows human characteristics, anger, pain.. etc.. That's all she really said.. You seem to think that bolsters your opinion, and even means he'll kill again.. I think you've lost your marbles..
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
JaxBill
Footballguy
Man beaten by mob in Mobile, AL as "justice for Trayvon".
http://blog.al.com/live/2012/04/witness_mobile_mans_attacker_s.html
Who Dat Ninja
Footballguy
Cant imagine why he would be angry. Being held against his will, accused of murder, everyone in the country hates him, will not be able to live in this country with any sort of peace for a very very long time if found innocent etc etc, he should be jumping for joy.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
This post shows your bias more than any other. That woman actually helps the defense, but you are so blinded that all you latched on to was that she said he was angry.
