What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

George R.R. Martin - "A Dance With Dragons" (1 Viewer)

you must have missed it. :shrug:
I only "missed it" because it isn't there. There is plenty of evidence he was communicating with her mother *after* the event which might be what you are thinking of.
okay...it's not there for the slow witted, but...it's there. :nerd:

From ASOS, Tyrion III

"A maid of sixteen years, named Jeyne," said Ser Kevan. "Lord Gawen once suggested her to me for Willem or Martyn, but I had to refuse him. Gawen is a good man, but his wife is Sybell Spicer. He should never have wed her. The Westerlings always did have more honor than sense. Lady Sybell's grandfather was a trader in saffron and pepper, almost as lowborn as that smuggler Stannis keeps. And the grandmother was some woman he'd brought back from the east. A frightening old crone, supposed to be a priestess. Maegi, they called her. No one could pronounce her real name. Half of Lannisport used to go to her for cures and love potions and the like."

"It would have been kinder to leave her with a ******* in her belly," said Tyrion bluntly. The Westerlings stood to lose everything here; their lands, their castle, their very lives. A Lannister always pays his debts.

"Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter," said Lord Tywin, "and Robb Stark is his father's son."

This Westerling betrayal did not seem to have enraged his father as much as Tyrion would have expected. Lord Tywin did not suffer disloyalty in his vassals. He had extinguished the proud Reynes of Castamere and the ancient Tarbecks of Tarbeck Hall root and branch when he was still half a boy. The singers had even made a rather gloomy song of it. Some years later, when Lord Farman of Faircastle grew truculent, Lord Tywin sent an envoy bearing a lute instead of a letter. But once he'd heard "The Rains of Castamere" echoing through his hall, Lord Farman gave no further trouble. And if the song were not enough, the shattered castles of the Reynes and Tarbecks still stood as mute testimony to the fate that awaited those who chose to scorn the power of Casterly Rock. "The Crag is not so far from Tarbeck Hall and Castamere," Tyrion pointed out. "You'd think the Westerlings might have ridden past and seen the lesson there."

"Mayhaps they have," Lord Tywin said. "They are well aware of Castamere, I promise you."

"Could the Westerlings and Spicers be such great fools as to believe the wolf can defeat the lion?"

Every once in a very long while, Lord Tywin Lannister would actually threaten to smile; he never did, but the threat alone was terrible to behold. "The greatest fools are ofttimes more clever than the men who laugh at them," he said ...
Then Jamie ties it up and confirms it in his chapter. More or less ;)

in before the "Tywin wasn't surprised because he had already arranged the downfall by the time he heard the tale...but he didn't arrange the downfall prior to Robb meeting Jeyne" :loco:

;)
 
you must have missed it. :shrug:
I only "missed it" because it isn't there. There is plenty of evidence he was communicating with her mother *after* the event which might be what you are thinking of.
okay...it's not there for the slow witted, but...it's there. :nerd:

From ASOS, Tyrion III

"A maid of sixteen years, named Jeyne," said Ser Kevan. "Lord Gawen once suggested her to me for Willem or Martyn, but I had to refuse him. Gawen is a good man, but his wife is Sybell Spicer. He should never have wed her. The Westerlings always did have more honor than sense. Lady Sybell's grandfather was a trader in saffron and pepper, almost as lowborn as that smuggler Stannis keeps. And the grandmother was some woman he'd brought back from the east. A frightening old crone, supposed to be a priestess. Maegi, they called her. No one could pronounce her real name. Half of Lannisport used to go to her for cures and love potions and the like."

"It would have been kinder to leave her with a ******* in her belly," said Tyrion bluntly. The Westerlings stood to lose everything here; their lands, their castle, their very lives. A Lannister always pays his debts.

"Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter," said Lord Tywin, "and Robb Stark is his father's son."

This Westerling betrayal did not seem to have enraged his father as much as Tyrion would have expected. Lord Tywin did not suffer disloyalty in his vassals. He had extinguished the proud Reynes of Castamere and the ancient Tarbecks of Tarbeck Hall root and branch when he was still half a boy. The singers had even made a rather gloomy song of it. Some years later, when Lord Farman of Faircastle grew truculent, Lord Tywin sent an envoy bearing a lute instead of a letter. But once he'd heard "The Rains of Castamere" echoing through his hall, Lord Farman gave no further trouble. And if the song were not enough, the shattered castles of the Reynes and Tarbecks still stood as mute testimony to the fate that awaited those who chose to scorn the power of Casterly Rock. "The Crag is not so far from Tarbeck Hall and Castamere," Tyrion pointed out. "You'd think the Westerlings might have ridden past and seen the lesson there."

"Mayhaps they have," Lord Tywin said. "They are well aware of Castamere, I promise you."

"Could the Westerlings and Spicers be such great fools as to believe the wolf can defeat the lion?"

Every once in a very long while, Lord Tywin Lannister would actually threaten to smile; he never did, but the threat alone was terrible to behold. "The greatest fools are ofttimes more clever than the men who laugh at them," he said ...
Then Jamie ties it up and confirms it in his chapter. More or less ;)

Wrong. That only shows that Jeyne's mother has been in contact with Tywin *after* the wedding not that he *arranged* it. There is zero evidence that he arranged the wedding in the books. He isn't upset because he knows that Sybil is preventing Jeyne from becoming pregnant and that the Red Wedding is being planned and that Robb has lost the Freys and Boltons.
 
you must have missed it. :shrug:
I only "missed it" because it isn't there. There is plenty of evidence he was communicating with her mother *after* the event which might be what you are thinking of.
okay...it's not there for the slow witted, but...it's there. :nerd:

From ASOS, Tyrion III

"A maid of sixteen years, named Jeyne," said Ser Kevan. "Lord Gawen once suggested her to me for Willem or Martyn, but I had to refuse him. Gawen is a good man, but his wife is Sybell Spicer. He should never have wed her. The Westerlings always did have more honor than sense. Lady Sybell's grandfather was a trader in saffron and pepper, almost as lowborn as that smuggler Stannis keeps. And the grandmother was some woman he'd brought back from the east. A frightening old crone, supposed to be a priestess. Maegi, they called her. No one could pronounce her real name. Half of Lannisport used to go to her for cures and love potions and the like."

"It would have been kinder to leave her with a ******* in her belly," said Tyrion bluntly. The Westerlings stood to lose everything here; their lands, their castle, their very lives. A Lannister always pays his debts.

"Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter," said Lord Tywin, "and Robb Stark is his father's son."

This Westerling betrayal did not seem to have enraged his father as much as Tyrion would have expected. Lord Tywin did not suffer disloyalty in his vassals. He had extinguished the proud Reynes of Castamere and the ancient Tarbecks of Tarbeck Hall root and branch when he was still half a boy. The singers had even made a rather gloomy song of it. Some years later, when Lord Farman of Faircastle grew truculent, Lord Tywin sent an envoy bearing a lute instead of a letter. But once he'd heard "The Rains of Castamere" echoing through his hall, Lord Farman gave no further trouble. And if the song were not enough, the shattered castles of the Reynes and Tarbecks still stood as mute testimony to the fate that awaited those who chose to scorn the power of Casterly Rock. "The Crag is not so far from Tarbeck Hall and Castamere," Tyrion pointed out. "You'd think the Westerlings might have ridden past and seen the lesson there."

"Mayhaps they have," Lord Tywin said. "They are well aware of Castamere, I promise you."

"Could the Westerlings and Spicers be such great fools as to believe the wolf can defeat the lion?"

Every once in a very long while, Lord Tywin Lannister would actually threaten to smile; he never did, but the threat alone was terrible to behold. "The greatest fools are ofttimes more clever than the men who laugh at them," he said ...
Then Jamie ties it up and confirms it in his chapter. More or less ;)
Wrong. That only shows that Jeyne's mother has been in contact with Tywin *after* the wedding not that he *arranged* it. There is zero evidence that he arranged the wedding in the books. He isn't upset because he knows that Sybil is preventing Jeyne from becoming pregnant and that the Red Wedding is being planned and that Robb has lost the Freys and Boltons.
:hifive:
 
you must have missed it. :shrug:
I only "missed it" because it isn't there. There is plenty of evidence he was communicating with her mother *after* the event which might be what you are thinking of.
okay...it's not there for the slow witted, but...it's there. :nerd:

From ASOS, Tyrion III

"A maid of sixteen years, named Jeyne," said Ser Kevan. "Lord Gawen once suggested her to me for Willem or Martyn, but I had to refuse him. Gawen is a good man, but his wife is Sybell Spicer. He should never have wed her. The Westerlings always did have more honor than sense. Lady Sybell's grandfather was a trader in saffron and pepper, almost as lowborn as that smuggler Stannis keeps. And the grandmother was some woman he'd brought back from the east. A frightening old crone, supposed to be a priestess. Maegi, they called her. No one could pronounce her real name. Half of Lannisport used to go to her for cures and love potions and the like."

"It would have been kinder to leave her with a ******* in her belly," said Tyrion bluntly. The Westerlings stood to lose everything here; their lands, their castle, their very lives. A Lannister always pays his debts.

"Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter," said Lord Tywin, "and Robb Stark is his father's son."

This Westerling betrayal did not seem to have enraged his father as much as Tyrion would have expected. Lord Tywin did not suffer disloyalty in his vassals. He had extinguished the proud Reynes of Castamere and the ancient Tarbecks of Tarbeck Hall root and branch when he was still half a boy. The singers had even made a rather gloomy song of it. Some years later, when Lord Farman of Faircastle grew truculent, Lord Tywin sent an envoy bearing a lute instead of a letter. But once he'd heard "The Rains of Castamere" echoing through his hall, Lord Farman gave no further trouble. And if the song were not enough, the shattered castles of the Reynes and Tarbecks still stood as mute testimony to the fate that awaited those who chose to scorn the power of Casterly Rock. "The Crag is not so far from Tarbeck Hall and Castamere," Tyrion pointed out. "You'd think the Westerlings might have ridden past and seen the lesson there."

"Mayhaps they have," Lord Tywin said. "They are well aware of Castamere, I promise you."

"Could the Westerlings and Spicers be such great fools as to believe the wolf can defeat the lion?"

Every once in a very long while, Lord Tywin Lannister would actually threaten to smile; he never did, but the threat alone was terrible to behold. "The greatest fools are ofttimes more clever than the men who laugh at them," he said ...
Then Jamie ties it up and confirms it in his chapter. More or less ;)
Wrong. That only shows that Jeyne's mother has been in contact with Tywin *after* the wedding not that he *arranged* it. There is zero evidence that he arranged the wedding in the books. He isn't upset because he knows that Sybil is preventing Jeyne from becoming pregnant and that the Red Wedding is being planned and that Robb has lost the Freys and Boltons.
:hifive: :hifive: or not you are still 100% wrong about this.
 
you must have missed it. :shrug:
I only "missed it" because it isn't there. There is plenty of evidence he was communicating with her mother *after* the event which might be what you are thinking of.
okay...it's not there for the slow witted, but...it's there. :nerd:

From ASOS, Tyrion III

"A maid of sixteen years, named Jeyne," said Ser Kevan. "Lord Gawen once suggested her to me for Willem or Martyn, but I had to refuse him. Gawen is a good man, but his wife is Sybell Spicer. He should never have wed her. The Westerlings always did have more honor than sense. Lady Sybell's grandfather was a trader in saffron and pepper, almost as lowborn as that smuggler Stannis keeps. And the grandmother was some woman he'd brought back from the east. A frightening old crone, supposed to be a priestess. Maegi, they called her. No one could pronounce her real name. Half of Lannisport used to go to her for cures and love potions and the like."

"It would have been kinder to leave her with a ******* in her belly," said Tyrion bluntly. The Westerlings stood to lose everything here; their lands, their castle, their very lives. A Lannister always pays his debts.

"Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter," said Lord Tywin, "and Robb Stark is his father's son."

This Westerling betrayal did not seem to have enraged his father as much as Tyrion would have expected. Lord Tywin did not suffer disloyalty in his vassals. He had extinguished the proud Reynes of Castamere and the ancient Tarbecks of Tarbeck Hall root and branch when he was still half a boy. The singers had even made a rather gloomy song of it. Some years later, when Lord Farman of Faircastle grew truculent, Lord Tywin sent an envoy bearing a lute instead of a letter. But once he'd heard "The Rains of Castamere" echoing through his hall, Lord Farman gave no further trouble. And if the song were not enough, the shattered castles of the Reynes and Tarbecks still stood as mute testimony to the fate that awaited those who chose to scorn the power of Casterly Rock. "The Crag is not so far from Tarbeck Hall and Castamere," Tyrion pointed out. "You'd think the Westerlings might have ridden past and seen the lesson there."

"Mayhaps they have," Lord Tywin said. "They are well aware of Castamere, I promise you."

"Could the Westerlings and Spicers be such great fools as to believe the wolf can defeat the lion?"

Every once in a very long while, Lord Tywin Lannister would actually threaten to smile; he never did, but the threat alone was terrible to behold. "The greatest fools are ofttimes more clever than the men who laugh at them," he said ...
Then Jamie ties it up and confirms it in his chapter. More or less ;)
Wrong. That only shows that Jeyne's mother has been in contact with Tywin *after* the wedding not that he *arranged* it. There is zero evidence that he arranged the wedding in the books. He isn't upset because he knows that Sybil is preventing Jeyne from becoming pregnant and that the Red Wedding is being planned and that Robb has lost the Freys and Boltons.
:hifive: The fact that you predicted the reasonable response doesn't validate the flimsy support for your theory, GB. :tinfoilhat:
 
'sn0mm1s said:
'JerseyToughGuys said:
'sn0mm1s said:
'JerseyToughGuys said:
'sn0mm1s said:
'JerseyToughGuys said:
you must have missed it. :shrug:
I only "missed it" because it isn't there. There is plenty of evidence he was communicating with her mother *after* the event which might be what you are thinking of.
okay...it's not there for the slow witted, but...it's there. :nerd:

From ASOS, Tyrion III

"A maid of sixteen years, named Jeyne," said Ser Kevan. "Lord Gawen once suggested her to me for Willem or Martyn, but I had to refuse him. Gawen is a good man, but his wife is Sybell Spicer. He should never have wed her. The Westerlings always did have more honor than sense. Lady Sybell's grandfather was a trader in saffron and pepper, almost as lowborn as that smuggler Stannis keeps. And the grandmother was some woman he'd brought back from the east. A frightening old crone, supposed to be a priestess. Maegi, they called her. No one could pronounce her real name. Half of Lannisport used to go to her for cures and love potions and the like."

"It would have been kinder to leave her with a ******* in her belly," said Tyrion bluntly. The Westerlings stood to lose everything here; their lands, their castle, their very lives. A Lannister always pays his debts.

"Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter," said Lord Tywin, "and Robb Stark is his father's son."

This Westerling betrayal did not seem to have enraged his father as much as Tyrion would have expected. Lord Tywin did not suffer disloyalty in his vassals. He had extinguished the proud Reynes of Castamere and the ancient Tarbecks of Tarbeck Hall root and branch when he was still half a boy. The singers had even made a rather gloomy song of it. Some years later, when Lord Farman of Faircastle grew truculent, Lord Tywin sent an envoy bearing a lute instead of a letter. But once he'd heard "The Rains of Castamere" echoing through his hall, Lord Farman gave no further trouble. And if the song were not enough, the shattered castles of the Reynes and Tarbecks still stood as mute testimony to the fate that awaited those who chose to scorn the power of Casterly Rock. "The Crag is not so far from Tarbeck Hall and Castamere," Tyrion pointed out. "You'd think the Westerlings might have ridden past and seen the lesson there."

"Mayhaps they have," Lord Tywin said. "They are well aware of Castamere, I promise you."

"Could the Westerlings and Spicers be such great fools as to believe the wolf can defeat the lion?"

Every once in a very long while, Lord Tywin Lannister would actually threaten to smile; he never did, but the threat alone was terrible to behold. "The greatest fools are ofttimes more clever than the men who laugh at them," he said ...
Then Jamie ties it up and confirms it in his chapter. More or less ;)
Wrong. That only shows that Jeyne's mother has been in contact with Tywin *after* the wedding not that he *arranged* it. There is zero evidence that he arranged the wedding in the books. He isn't upset because he knows that Sybil is preventing Jeyne from becoming pregnant and that the Red Wedding is being planned and that Robb has lost the Freys and Boltons.
:hifive: :hifive: or not you are still 100% wrong about this.
You really think Tywin was handing out lands, titles, money and marriages just so Sybell would keep Jeyne from getting pregnant? :no: He could have just had her killed. They got paid for setting the trap from day one. You need to reread.
 
'sn0mm1s said:
'JerseyToughGuys said:
'sn0mm1s said:
'JerseyToughGuys said:
'sn0mm1s said:
'JerseyToughGuys said:
you must have missed it. :shrug:
I only "missed it" because it isn't there. There is plenty of evidence he was communicating with her mother *after* the event which might be what you are thinking of.
okay...it's not there for the slow witted, but...it's there. :nerd:

From ASOS, Tyrion III

"A maid of sixteen years, named Jeyne," said Ser Kevan. "Lord Gawen once suggested her to me for Willem or Martyn, but I had to refuse him. Gawen is a good man, but his wife is Sybell Spicer. He should never have wed her. The Westerlings always did have more honor than sense. Lady Sybell's grandfather was a trader in saffron and pepper, almost as lowborn as that smuggler Stannis keeps. And the grandmother was some woman he'd brought back from the east. A frightening old crone, supposed to be a priestess. Maegi, they called her. No one could pronounce her real name. Half of Lannisport used to go to her for cures and love potions and the like."

"It would have been kinder to leave her with a ******* in her belly," said Tyrion bluntly. The Westerlings stood to lose everything here; their lands, their castle, their very lives. A Lannister always pays his debts.

"Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter," said Lord Tywin, "and Robb Stark is his father's son."

This Westerling betrayal did not seem to have enraged his father as much as Tyrion would have expected. Lord Tywin did not suffer disloyalty in his vassals. He had extinguished the proud Reynes of Castamere and the ancient Tarbecks of Tarbeck Hall root and branch when he was still half a boy. The singers had even made a rather gloomy song of it. Some years later, when Lord Farman of Faircastle grew truculent, Lord Tywin sent an envoy bearing a lute instead of a letter. But once he'd heard "The Rains of Castamere" echoing through his hall, Lord Farman gave no further trouble. And if the song were not enough, the shattered castles of the Reynes and Tarbecks still stood as mute testimony to the fate that awaited those who chose to scorn the power of Casterly Rock. "The Crag is not so far from Tarbeck Hall and Castamere," Tyrion pointed out. "You'd think the Westerlings might have ridden past and seen the lesson there."

"Mayhaps they have," Lord Tywin said. "They are well aware of Castamere, I promise you."

"Could the Westerlings and Spicers be such great fools as to believe the wolf can defeat the lion?"

Every once in a very long while, Lord Tywin Lannister would actually threaten to smile; he never did, but the threat alone was terrible to behold. "The greatest fools are ofttimes more clever than the men who laugh at them," he said ...
Then Jamie ties it up and confirms it in his chapter. More or less ;)
Wrong. That only shows that Jeyne's mother has been in contact with Tywin *after* the wedding not that he *arranged* it. There is zero evidence that he arranged the wedding in the books. He isn't upset because he knows that Sybil is preventing Jeyne from becoming pregnant and that the Red Wedding is being planned and that Robb has lost the Freys and Boltons.
:hifive: :hifive: or not you are still 100% wrong about this.okay.
:nerd:

You remember the part where Lady Sybell disavows knowledge of the Red Wedding to Jamie, right? How does that fit? She would lie to the son of the Master Plotter, her ally, after the fact? For what purpose?

Robb sacks the Crag and takes the whole Westerling crew in tow, right? After all, that's how they meet, right? How/when is all this plotting taking place?

I think minds can differ, but to claim the info isn't even there to be construed one way or the other is, well, absurd.

:nerd:

:hifive:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
'sn0mm1s said:
'JerseyToughGuys said:
'sn0mm1s said:
'JerseyToughGuys said:
'sn0mm1s said:
'JerseyToughGuys said:
you must have missed it. :shrug:
I only "missed it" because it isn't there. There is plenty of evidence he was communicating with her mother *after* the event which might be what you are thinking of.
okay...it's not there for the slow witted, but...it's there. :nerd:

From ASOS, Tyrion III

"A maid of sixteen years, named Jeyne," said Ser Kevan. "Lord Gawen once suggested her to me for Willem or Martyn, but I had to refuse him. Gawen is a good man, but his wife is Sybell Spicer. He should never have wed her. The Westerlings always did have more honor than sense. Lady Sybell's grandfather was a trader in saffron and pepper, almost as lowborn as that smuggler Stannis keeps. And the grandmother was some woman he'd brought back from the east. A frightening old crone, supposed to be a priestess. Maegi, they called her. No one could pronounce her real name. Half of Lannisport used to go to her for cures and love potions and the like."

"It would have been kinder to leave her with a ******* in her belly," said Tyrion bluntly. The Westerlings stood to lose everything here; their lands, their castle, their very lives. A Lannister always pays his debts.

"Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter," said Lord Tywin, "and Robb Stark is his father's son."

This Westerling betrayal did not seem to have enraged his father as much as Tyrion would have expected. Lord Tywin did not suffer disloyalty in his vassals. He had extinguished the proud Reynes of Castamere and the ancient Tarbecks of Tarbeck Hall root and branch when he was still half a boy. The singers had even made a rather gloomy song of it. Some years later, when Lord Farman of Faircastle grew truculent, Lord Tywin sent an envoy bearing a lute instead of a letter. But once he'd heard "The Rains of Castamere" echoing through his hall, Lord Farman gave no further trouble. And if the song were not enough, the shattered castles of the Reynes and Tarbecks still stood as mute testimony to the fate that awaited those who chose to scorn the power of Casterly Rock. "The Crag is not so far from Tarbeck Hall and Castamere," Tyrion pointed out. "You'd think the Westerlings might have ridden past and seen the lesson there."

"Mayhaps they have," Lord Tywin said. "They are well aware of Castamere, I promise you."

"Could the Westerlings and Spicers be such great fools as to believe the wolf can defeat the lion?"

Every once in a very long while, Lord Tywin Lannister would actually threaten to smile; he never did, but the threat alone was terrible to behold. "The greatest fools are ofttimes more clever than the men who laugh at them," he said ...
Then Jamie ties it up and confirms it in his chapter. More or less ;)
Wrong. That only shows that Jeyne's mother has been in contact with Tywin *after* the wedding not that he *arranged* it. There is zero evidence that he arranged the wedding in the books. He isn't upset because he knows that Sybil is preventing Jeyne from becoming pregnant and that the Red Wedding is being planned and that Robb has lost the Freys and Boltons.
:hifive: :hifive: or not you are still 100% wrong about this.
You really think Tywin was handing out lands, titles, money and marriages just so Sybell would keep Jeyne from getting pregnant? :no: He could have just had her killed. They got paid for setting the trap from day one. You need to reread.
Yes, absolutely. He hands out lands, titles, and money to *everyone* that supports him. That happens dozens of times in the books. Hell, Baelish gets Harrenhal and is made liege lord over the Riverlands for doing nothing more than delivering a message to the Tyrells. A Lannister pays his debts and the price for keeping a rival king heirless is worth a few lands and titles - especially when you are planning to kill that king.
 
Tywin: Lets plot out the Red Wedding.

Momma Westerling: Sounds good, where do we start?

*RED WEDDING - LOTS OF DEATH*

Jamie: So, that Red Wedding thing was pretty sweet, huh?

Jamie: As you are well aware, a Lannister always pays his debts. Let's settle up.

Momma Westerling: What? I had nothing to do with that. I have no idea what you are talking about.

Momma Westerling: Oh, and my son died there you ****. GFY.
 
Tywin: Lets plot out the Red Wedding.Momma Westerling: Sounds good, where do we start?*RED WEDDING - LOTS OF DEATH*Jamie: So, that Red Wedding thing was pretty sweet, huh?Jamie: As you are well aware, a Lannister always pays his debts. Let's settle up.Momma Westerling: What? I had nothing to do with that. I have no idea what you are talking about.Momma Westerling: Oh, and my son died there you ****. GFY.
You are making an assumption that she was part of the planning or needed to be - neither of which are true.Tywin didn't even tell Tyrion or Cersei about the plan.
 
I think Tywin got word of Rob's location and feelings towards Jeyne. He then sent word to the mother who encouraged her daughter to act on their impulses knowing that Robb Stark was so damn honorable that he would take the bait. Jeyne was not in on it until after the fact at most. I'm not sure whether she knew her pregnancy was being prevented.

 
If you listen to conspiracy theorists, the Jeyne we see at the end of AFfC isn't even the real Jeyne, so who knows.
:stirspot:

 
I think Tywin got word of Rob's location and feelings towards Jeyne. He then sent word to the mother who encouraged her daughter to act on their impulses knowing that Robb Stark was so damn honorable that he would take the bait. Jeyne was not in on it until after the fact at most. I'm not sure whether she knew her pregnancy was being prevented.
I doubt it. I think the only way for this to work is if Sybell makes contact first.First of all, the ravens at the Crag are under control of the Stark host so she wouldn't be receiving any messages that wouldn't be read by Starks first while Robb is there - nor would Tywin trust such messages to ravens if they could so easily fall into enemy hands. Messengers coming and going would also be closely watched.Secondly, Tywin was in the field at the time of the taking of the Crag. He had left Harrenhal and Robb had left the Crag prior to Stannis' assault on King's Landing. Remember that he wanted Tywin to come west but Edmure delayed him. Tywin was warned *by rider* about the impending attack by Stannis. All implying, that he wasn't reachable by raven.So, I don't think it was mentioned precisely how long Robb was at the Crag - but for Tywin to have planned this *prior* to the taking of the Crag. He would've needed to know that:1) He would take the Crag.2) That Robb would be injured.3) That he would fall for Jeyne.The only other "option" is that he sent wasted a ton of ravens (while in the field remember and not likely carrying ravens to every random holding in the west) telling random keeps and castles to foist their maiden daughters on Robb Stark in the hopes that he would fall for them and break his word with the Freys. Not very likely, nor a strategic use of ravens.For him to initiate the plan *after* taking of the Crag.1) Word would need to get to him - most likely by rider - or a rider, raven intermediary, then another rider. Informing him of the situation in a countryside ravaged by war.2) He would have to get word back. In presumably, the same manner (and not let the messenger get discovered).3) Sybell would have place her daughter in position to seduce Robb, and have an event like the loss of Bran and Rickon to weaken Robb's resolve.4) All of this would need to happen *before* Robb healed.Neither of these scenarios seem likely.However, we know that Sybell is an ambitious woman - and one that knows the story of Castamere. So, once she knows that she can safely send word to Tywin (probably at King's Landing) she sends him a message after the wedding (once the Westerling's have supposedly joined Robb's cause and are trusted) stating that the Westerling's had no choice, but that she will spy on Robb, possibly kill him if they have the chance, and prevent an heir from being born etc. etc. At that point, she knows that Robb has lost the North (Jeyne sleeps with Robb after he learns of the fall of Winterfell) and that he has lost the Freys (due to the wedding). She *knows* that she will likely be on the losing side. It just makes so much more sense that Sybell makes contact first to take advantage of the situation she is in rather than having us believe in some crazy prescient conspiracy theory that involves Tywin knowing all things. Hell, the book is littered with Tywin being blind to things. We see in the very first encounter with the North that he underestimates Robb, overestimates Jaime, and underestimates the Freys. We see him underestimate Tyrion. He is blind to Jaime and Cersei. He underestimates Littlefinger. If not for Edmure he would've fallen into Robb's scheme.
 
If you listen to conspiracy theorists, the Jeyne we see at the end of AFfC isn't even the real Jeyne, so who knows.
:stirspot:

I am undecided if that is a mistake on Martin's part or intended - or perhaps just a point of view difference between Cat and Jaime.
 
If you listen to conspiracy theorists, the Jeyne we see at the end of AFfC isn't even the real Jeyne, so who knows.
:stirspot:

I am a believer in that particular theory.
Sybell absolutely does NOT know about the Red Wedding beforehand. Her oldest son is part of Robb Stark's personal retinue. Anyone with any sense could figure out that Robb's murder would turn into a bloodbath and his personal protectors were likely dead too.Now, she may have known that Tywin planned to have Robb killed at some point and gone along with that, but after the Red Wedding where her oldest son and heir was killed all bets are off.She even tells Jaime she had no idea about the RW in AFFC. Plus, as to the spoiler above, the description Jaime has of Jeyne is very different to the description we get of her from Cat. That may be due to differences in opinion, but I find it highly unlikely that Martin would point out each person's description of Jeyne if it didn't have a deep significance.Sybell may have been on the Lannister's side once, but I don't believe she is anymore.
 
He isn't upset because he knows that Sybil is preventing Jeyne from becoming pregnant and that the Red Wedding is being planned and that Robb has lost the Freys and Boltons.
I just finished Dragons last night, liked it much better than AFFC and am catching back up on this thread, learning a lot here guys, which is really helpful the first time through since there are so many characters and the world GRRM created is so complex and intertwined. One question I had related to spoiler above as well as a general comment about one of the Dragon end parts:
How was Sybil preventing Jeyne from getting pregnant? I was fully expecting, even after Robb was killed, that we'd come to find she had a bun in the oven. Also, I was pretty pissed last night when I found out Jon was ambushed, though to be honest it was well foreshadowed and it was not unexpected.
 
He isn't upset because he knows that Sybil is preventing Jeyne from becoming pregnant and that the Red Wedding is being planned and that Robb has lost the Freys and Boltons.
I just finished Dragons last night, liked it much better than AFFC and am catching back up on this thread, learning a lot here guys, which is really helpful the first time through since there are so many characters and the world GRRM created is so complex and intertwined. One question I had related to spoiler above as well as a general comment about one of the Dragon end parts:
How was Sybil preventing Jeyne from getting pregnant? I was fully expecting, even after Robb was killed, that we'd come to find she had a bun in the oven. Also, I was pretty pissed last night when I found out Jon was ambushed, though to be honest it was well foreshadowed and it was not unexpected.
I figure she was sneaking her that moon tea stuff, or something like it. And yeah, after the umpteenth time Melissandre talks about Jon being surrounded by skulls and fire and stuff in her visions, along with how Martin has a tendency to bring the hammer down on his main characters, you knew Jon was going to experience some damage at some point. It's just a question of the aftermath, which is actually a fun debate, so I think Martin actually did well with this loose end.
 
He isn't upset because he knows that Sybil is preventing Jeyne from becoming pregnant and that the Red Wedding is being planned and that Robb has lost the Freys and Boltons.
I just finished Dragons last night, liked it much better than AFFC and am catching back up on this thread, learning a lot here guys, which is really helpful the first time through since there are so many characters and the world GRRM created is so complex and intertwined. One question I had related to spoiler above as well as a general comment about one of the Dragon end parts:
How was Sybil preventing Jeyne from getting pregnant? I was fully expecting, even after Robb was killed, that we'd come to find she had a bun in the oven. Also, I was pretty pissed last night when I found out Jon was ambushed, though to be honest it was well foreshadowed and it was not unexpected.
Funny, I too just finished ADwD last night.
Once Jon left his direwolf locked up, you knew it was curtains for him. Same as the Red Wedding with Robb.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
So I finished my 2nd read through. It's funny but the 1st time through I was so put off/shocked by the last Jon chapter, I didn't really pay attention to what happened in the few chapters following. This time I did.

So this Robert Strong guy - that's the reanimated corpse of Gregor, or could it be King Robert? I figure the former is more likely given the description and some fuzzy notion that Robert was down to bones at the point Qyburn showed up. But it would be funny if it was somehow Robert who ended up Cersei's champion.

Also, are we buying this young Aegon as the legitimate son of Rhaegar? Or is he Illyrio's kid, or someone else? I guess Varys would have had to have been the guy to smuggle infant Aegon out of town in anticipation of Baratheon winning the war - similarly to how he got Tyrion out of town I suppose.

I can't believe Arya has to go on an apprenticeship at yet another location we haven't even been introduced to yet. I'm ready for her to return to Westeros and start "giving the gift" to some people.
 
The more I think about it, the less faith I have that this will be able to wrap up in 2 more books satisfactorily.
Epic TV shows and book series rarely get it right at the end. The wire failed, sopranos failed, Seinfeld failed, and I can't recall many large book series that nailed it.I'm hoping Breaking Bad and George Martin's epic series can buck the trend, but I also doubt it.
 
So I finished my 2nd read through. It's funny but the 1st time through I was so put off/shocked by the last Jon chapter, I didn't really pay attention to what happened in the few chapters following. This time I did.

So this Robert Strong guy - that's the reanimated corpse of Gregor, or could it be King Robert? I figure the former is more likely given the description and some fuzzy notion that Robert was down to bones at the point Qyburn showed up. But it would be funny if it was somehow Robert who ended up Cersei's champion.Also, are we buying this young Aegon as the legitimate son of Rhaegar? Or is he Illyrio's kid, or someone else? I guess Varys would have had to have been the guy to smuggle infant Aegon out of town in anticipation of Baratheon winning the war - similarly to how he got Tyrion out of town I suppose.I can't believe Arya has to go on an apprenticeship at yet another location we haven't even been introduced to yet. I'm ready for her to return to Westeros and start "giving the gift" to some people.
It's gotta be Gregor imo. There were a bunch of sketchy references to what to do with him re: the poison and its course. Also, there was dialogue about how his head was presented to Dorne.Something doesn't add up as far as timeline goes with the whole Aegon/Rhaegar/John Snow thing** the John thing = The speculation he is Rhaegar's son from Lyanna Aegon could be the real son of Rhaegar, but if Jon is also his son, he'd have a the better claim, ******* notwithstanding (hell, he could have secretly married Lyanna Stark thereby making him legit - not sure if he married the Dorne girl after but I think he did). I don't know how long the Rebellion went on for, but if Rhaegar running off with Lyanna started it, John is older than Aegon, right? :loco: :loco: :loco:
 
So I finished my 2nd read through. It's funny but the 1st time through I was so put off/shocked by the last Jon chapter, I didn't really pay attention to what happened in the few chapters following. This time I did.

So this Robert Strong guy - that's the reanimated corpse of Gregor, or could it be King Robert? I figure the former is more likely given the description and some fuzzy notion that Robert was down to bones at the point Qyburn showed up. But it would be funny if it was somehow Robert who ended up Cersei's champion.Also, are we buying this young Aegon as the legitimate son of Rhaegar? Or is he Illyrio's kid, or someone else? I guess Varys would have had to have been the guy to smuggle infant Aegon out of town in anticipation of Baratheon winning the war - similarly to how he got Tyrion out of town I suppose.I can't believe Arya has to go on an apprenticeship at yet another location we haven't even been introduced to yet. I'm ready for her to return to Westeros and start "giving the gift" to some people.
It's gotta be Gregor imo. There were a bunch of sketchy references to what to do with him re: the poison and its course. Also, there was dialogue about how his head was presented to Dorne.Something doesn't add up as far as timeline goes with the whole Aegon/Rhaegar/John Snow thing** the John thing = The speculation he is Rhaegar's son from Lyanna Aegon could be the real son of Rhaegar, but if Jon is also his son, he'd have a the better claim, ******* notwithstanding (hell, he could have secretly married Lyanna Stark thereby making him legit - not sure if he married the Dorne girl after but I think he did). I don't know how long the Rebellion went on for, but if Rhaegar running off with Lyanna started it, John is older than Aegon, right? :loco: :loco: :loco:
Raeghar and Ellia were definitely married - any of their kids would be legitimate heirs.They'd never let a ******* be king, unless Jon conquered everyone. Also, even if he is actually Rhaegar's son, Jon isn't a dragon - he burned. Whoever his parents are, he's a Stark, he's of the north, he's got the warg in him like Bran and Arya (and Rickon?). Maybe if he gets magicked by Mellisandre somehow that changes.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The more I think about it, the less faith I have that this will be able to wrap up in 2 more books satisfactorily.
Epic TV shows and book series rarely get it right at the end. The wire failed, sopranos failed, Seinfeld failed, and I can't recall many large book series that nailed it.I'm hoping Breaking Bad and George Martin's epic series can buck the trend, but I also doubt it.
The Wire didn't fail. The newsroom storyline was weak in and of itself, but the overall story and ending of the series was one of the more gratifying IMO.
 
Some inane noodlings...

So are Syrio and Jaqen H'Gar the same person?Is Jon the son of Lyanna & Rheagar? Probably not Lyanna & Robert, right? If he is Rheagar's son, could he, as a *******, marry Dany?Will Jon end up being Melissandre's boy toy/god of light? He does already have a thing for the redheads.Just wondering what other peoples' ideas are on this. I know there are other message boards discussing those things, but I'd like to keep this in the FBG family.
He's dead, Jim
 
'Matthias said:
The more I think about it, the less faith I have that this will be able to wrap up in 2 more books satisfactorily.
A buddy and mine were talking on Saturday that if Martin resolves even 20-30% of the loose ends he's created for himself, it'll be a miracle. My opinion is that he likes the creation of intrigue more than he has a plan on how to actually resolve it/give it meaning. And as far as the major struggle for the throne goes, I'm thinking it would only be possible if each book took a 5-7 year leap forward in time with a, "and so-and-so was crushed thusly."
I just feel like he got bogged down a bit in Crows and Dragons and didn't quite move things ahead enough at the Wall and with Dany for the overall Song of Ice and Fire to be sung and ended in two books. I think we are looking at an 8 novel epic.
 
Pretty sure the snarks and grumpkins end up ruling the world. It's so obvious when you think about it.
 
Just got started on this book. Just got through the prologue and half of the 1st Tyrion chapter. Very cool stuff so far. :thumbup:

 
'Matthias said:
The more I think about it, the less faith I have that this will be able to wrap up in 2 more books satisfactorily.
A buddy and mine were talking on Saturday that if Martin resolves even 20-30% of the loose ends he's created for himself, it'll be a miracle. My opinion is that he likes the creation of intrigue more than he has a plan on how to actually resolve it/give it meaning. And as far as the major struggle for the throne goes, I'm thinking it would only be possible if each book took a 5-7 year leap forward in time with a, "and so-and-so was crushed thusly."
When in doubt, kill them off.
 
'Gr00vus said:
Pretty sure the snarks and grumpkins end up ruling the world. It's so obvious when you think about it.
It has to end with Dolorous Edd on the throne. Just his luck.
 
Do we really need to use spoiler tags in this thread now? We have 3 threads for this series: HBO show discussion only, HBO show mixed with book thread, and this book 6 only thread. I'm tired of having to click every post to read stuff.

 
I just got done and I have to see I missed a bunch of things. One question though is who are the kids with Varys at the end of the book?

 
Cool. I guess I am in the minority that hopes Snow is dead. I like the finality of the series and feel cheated when people get brought back.

 
Cool. I guess I am in the minority that hopes Snow is dead. I like the finality of the series and feel cheated when people get brought back.
I want snow to live and think that perhaps he warns into ghost somehow and who knows after that, but I hate when death seems final and then he brings people back(cat).
 
Cool. I guess I am in the minority that hopes Snow is dead. I like the finality of the series and feel cheated when people get brought back.
Been almost a year since I've read through the books and I'm drawing a total blank. Who are you referring to when you say you hope Snow is dead?ETA:And now it all comes back to me and I'm answering my own question.Zero chance Jon Snow is dead. He's the 3rd dragon. He'll regain consciousness in the next book.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It was far from clear whether or not he was dead...unlike Cat...hate bringing her back, that's one storyline I'd love for Martin to simply ignore/drop.

ETA: At a minimum, Snow wargs into a new body........

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Cool. I guess I am in the minority that hopes Snow is dead. I like the finality of the series and feel cheated when people get brought back.
I agree on the general point that dead characters should stay dead, and the diminished importance of death has been one of the many problems in books 4 and 5, but killing Jon Snow would be silly at this point.
 
Cool. I guess I am in the minority that hopes Snow is dead. I like the finality of the series and feel cheated when people get brought back.
I agree on the general point that dead characters should stay dead, and the diminished importance of death has been one of the many problems in books 4 and 5, but killing Jon Snow would be silly at this point.
There are so many deaths in this series that it's hard to keep track of. The only resurrections that I can recall are Beric Dondarion and Lady Stark. Everyone else stays dead. GRRM likes to play with the readers by making us think that Arya and Jon are dead at the end of their chapters, and finding out that they were merely KO'd, that doesn't really count as being brought back from the dead.
 
Cool. I guess I am in the minority that hopes Snow is dead. I like the finality of the series and feel cheated when people get brought back.
I agree on the general point that dead characters should stay dead, and the diminished importance of death has been one of the many problems in books 4 and 5, but killing Jon Snow would be silly at this point.
There are so many deaths in this series that it's hard to keep track of. The only resurrections that I can recall are Beric Dondarion and Lady Stark. Everyone else stays dead. GRRM likes to play with the readers by making us think that Arya and Jon are dead at the end of their chapters, and finding out that they were merely KO'd, that doesn't really count as being brought back from the dead.
I don't mean just resurrections. What you call GRRM playing with the readers is what I call cheap soap opera cliffhangers. It's even more ridiculous when the book ends without explaining their fates, and the next book doesn't come out for years. There's Arya, Jon, Asha, Brienne and likely others that I'm forgetting. Aegon also "came back from the dead", if it's really him. Martin also led readers to believe that Davos was dead in book 4. It's understandable due to the nature of the different viewpoints, but still diminishes the feeling that characters could die at any moment. Also, while characters stayed dead, no one of actual relevance died in the last two books, unless you're counting Jon as dead. Quentyn doesn't qualify, in my mind.
 
It was far from clear whether or not he was dead...unlike Cat...hate bringing her back, that's one storyline I'd love for Martin to simply ignore/drop.ETA: At a minimum, Snow wargs into a new body........
I
I actually like this storyline- Dondarrion is reanimated to fulfill his sworn duty, whatever was keeping him alive he passes to Cat when she washes up, and she starts taking out the plentiful Freys. I kinda hope it ends up with her in Lord Frey's great hall as he realizes hisl lineage is extinct as her corpse collapses.
On the other hand, the Dany chapters just havent interested me at all. I find that whole storyline reminiscent of seem of Raymond Feist's post Riftwar stuff where they go off to another continent- just doesn't grab me as much.

 
Cool. I guess I am in the minority that hopes Snow is dead. I like the finality of the series and feel cheated when people get brought back.
I agree on the general point that dead characters should stay dead, and the diminished importance of death has been one of the many problems in books 4 and 5, but killing Jon Snow would be silly at this point.
There are so many deaths in this series that it's hard to keep track of. The only resurrections that I can recall are Beric Dondarion and Lady Stark. Everyone else stays dead. GRRM likes to play with the readers by making us think that Arya and Jon are dead at the end of their chapters, and finding out that they were merely KO'd, that doesn't really count as being brought back from the dead.
I don't mean just resurrections. What you call GRRM playing with the readers is what I call cheap soap opera cliffhangers. It's even more ridiculous when the book ends without explaining their fates, and the next book doesn't come out for years. There's Arya, Jon, Asha, Brienne and likely others that I'm forgetting. Aegon also "came back from the dead", if it's really him. Martin also led readers to believe that Davos was dead in book 4. It's understandable due to the nature of the different viewpoints, but still diminishes the feeling that characters could die at any moment. Also, while characters stayed dead, no one of actual relevance died in the last two books, unless you're counting Jon as dead. Quentyn doesn't qualify, in my mind.
What's the alternative to cheap soap opera cliffhangers?Plenty of major characters have died, a bunch almost died. I think it's a good mix.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top