RBM
Footballguy
Not using an apostrophe on a message board? Really? YouRE one of those guys?. Also, the abbreviation for "it is" is "it's"But you're definitively two things....wrong and a moron.
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Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Yenrub
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BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
Please dont get this thread locked, we have worked waaay to hard getting this many pages haha'RBM said:Not using an apostrophe on a message board? Really? YouRE one of those guys?'Corky said:. Also, the abbreviation for "it is" is "it's"'RBM said:But you're definitively two things....wrong and a moron.'Corky said:
boots11234
Footballguy
You forgot one....the Timmy and Clinton riot! Or should I say rumble!!!'RBM said:
I don't think blacks would riot if Obama lost...if anything, he has made things way worse for the black community. If Zimmerman wins, I think there is going to be some violence. At the very least on a small scale with the potential to be bigger in certain areas.'glock said:Who would be rioting if Obama loses? And why?'RBM said:
Courtjester
The Town Drunk
Where Tim and I would agree is that people are not going to riot if Obama loses the election--it just simply is not going to happen.
Where we disagree is the idea that people riot based on injustice. Sure the first 10-15 people might be upset, but the next 90 are looking for a chance at free tv's and to commit other unlawful crimes. If you would have asked a sampling of the people in the Rodney King riots what was going on, IMO I bet you at least 60% could not have even told you who King was.
Where I can speak with confidence Tim, is probsbly 80% of crimes that happen are crimes of opportunity and that is what will happen again if there are indeed riots over a Not Guilty verdict. Bad ecomony, people down on their luck will look for an excuse to maybe get some of the things they can't afford and a faceless mob mentality will allow more, law-abiding citizens to maybe do things they wouldn't normally do.
Throw in the fact, members of the media have mentioned this possibility (almost like they hope a riot break out)--there will be some form of civil unrest if Zimmerman walks.
Just for fun though, you ask for an example of riots breaking out for other reasons and the first one that comes to mind is when a team wins a world title of some sort. How many times have you seen crowds of people flood the street after the game and burn cars, start fights, break windows, etc? And what I would argue with that is at least 95% of the people in these mobs KNOW what the underlying issue is and why they are out in the street.
Where we disagree is the idea that people riot based on injustice. Sure the first 10-15 people might be upset, but the next 90 are looking for a chance at free tv's and to commit other unlawful crimes. If you would have asked a sampling of the people in the Rodney King riots what was going on, IMO I bet you at least 60% could not have even told you who King was.
Where I can speak with confidence Tim, is probsbly 80% of crimes that happen are crimes of opportunity and that is what will happen again if there are indeed riots over a Not Guilty verdict. Bad ecomony, people down on their luck will look for an excuse to maybe get some of the things they can't afford and a faceless mob mentality will allow more, law-abiding citizens to maybe do things they wouldn't normally do.
Throw in the fact, members of the media have mentioned this possibility (almost like they hope a riot break out)--there will be some form of civil unrest if Zimmerman walks.
Just for fun though, you ask for an example of riots breaking out for other reasons and the first one that comes to mind is when a team wins a world title of some sort. How many times have you seen crowds of people flood the street after the game and burn cars, start fights, break windows, etc? And what I would argue with that is at least 95% of the people in these mobs KNOW what the underlying issue is and why they are out in the street.
timschochet
Footballguy
I don't disagree with you all the way. I was referring to the inital trouble. But you're generally right about what happens after that. However, I believe that some good police diligence can usually prevent it. There might have been a riot, IMO, if Zimmerman had not been arrested (however, that does NOT justify his arrest.) But I strongly doubt there will be a riot if he walks UNLESS it is very clear in the court case that he is guilty, but still acquitted. I would also point out that when you write that 80% of crimes are of opportunity: the police can easily remove that opportunity by acting diligently, but not stupidly.
TexanFan02
Footballguy
Witnesses coming out with more details.
Oops. Z is toast.
tdoss
Footballguy
Three people got shot in OKC just because the Thunder beat L.A.Anything is possible.But I agree...no one is rioting over Obama losing. This Zimmerman thing might have some recourse but hopefully people have come to their senses and realize this was not racially motivated. Zimmerman made a mistake in confronting/following this guy...guy took offense and jumped him...Zimmerman fired. Self Defense...lets move on.I don't think blacks would riot if Obama lost...if anything, he has made things way worse for the black community. If Zimmerman wins, I think there is going to be some violence. At the very least on a small scale with the potential to be bigger in certain areas.'glock said:Who would be rioting if Obama loses? And why?'RBM said:
TexanFan02
Footballguy
Three people got shot in OKC just because the Thunder beat L.A.Anything is possible.I don't think blacks would riot if Obama lost...if anything, he has made things way worse for the black community. If Zimmerman wins, I think there is going to be some violence. At the very least on a small scale with the potential to be bigger in certain areas.'glock said:Who would be rioting if Obama loses? And why?'RBM said:
But I agree...no one is rioting over Obama losing. This Zimmerman thing might have some recourse but hopefully people have come to their senses and realize this was not racially motivated. Zimmerman made a mistake in confronting/following this guy...guy took offense and jumped him...Zimmerman fired. Self Defense...lets move on.
Witz
Footballguy
Interesting information coming out today -
Witnesses Change Stories
Looks like some witnesses changed their stories from what they had initially told authorities.
Not sure who this benefits to be honest with you.
Witnesses Change Stories
Looks like some witnesses changed their stories from what they had initially told authorities.
Not sure who this benefits to be honest with you.
timschochet
Footballguy
I have based my assertion that this case should not go to trial on the initial testimony of Witness 6 and the assumption that this testimony would be given in the pre-trial hearing. If that testimony is not given or is incorrect, then perhaps this case should go to trial after all. Witness 2 doesn't tell us anything. Witness 12 hurts Zimmerman if she testifies- in fact, it's extremely problematic. If a jury perceives Zimmerman on top, then this whole thing is going to change, and Zimmeriman is in real danger of being found guilty. Witness 13 hurts Zimmerman slightly IMO.
Prior to the emergence of Witness 6, I wrote that this case would ultimately come down to Zimmerman's credibility on the stand. I felt that the evidence of injuries to Zimmerman helped his case, but were not enough by themselves to acquit him or prevent this case from going to trial; I disagreed with jon_mx and others about that. Then came reports of Witness 6's testimony, and that changed my mind. But if that testimony is suspect, it brings me right back to my earlier assertion.
Charlie Frown
Footballguy
George Zimmerman rips Sanford police in audio from 2011 meeting
Doesn't sound like someone the cops would want to cover up for.
Mr. Chumley
Footballguy
I've seen enough Matlock to know that Witness 12 will probably be discredited on the stand. She compared sizes from what she saw days later on tv? Everyone knows tv adds 10 pounds.
Road Warriors
Footballguy
Not to mention the TV images we were shown immediately following the shooting were those of a much heavier Zimmerman, while also portraying a much smaller Martin. Seems like an easy "reasonable doubt" discredit - along the lines of My Cousin Vinny's magic grits.
TexanFan02
Footballguy
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
2 days ago i posted this...''I see no reason why he shouldnt have been arrested , there are enough unanswered questions in this case to warrant an arrest. Conflicting witness accounts being at the top of the list.'' I stand by that statement based on the above story.'timschochet said:
timschochet
Footballguy
Let's talk about witness 12:
But in another interview with investigators six days later, the paper reported, she was sure: It was Zimmerman on top.
"I know after seeing the TV of what's happening, comparing their sizes, I think Zimmerman was definitely on top because of his size," the woman, "Witness 12," said.
Now earlier I wrote that I wanted to know the actual sizes of Zimmerman and Martin, and I was told it doesn't make any difference. Well, it might make a difference. I'd sure like to know. As Christo points out, this woman could be referring to the various news reports which had Zimmerman at 250 lbs- he obviously doesn't weigh that much.
BUT- supposing there IS a significant weight difference and Zimmerman weighs more than Martin, and supposing this woman testifies in court that she is "definitely certain" that Zimmerman was the one on top- and supposing the jury believes her and not Zimmerman- if all this happens then Zimmerman is going to be convicted. Because it really doesn't matter if Zimmerman has injuries or even how the fight started at that point. If Zimmerman was on top that would indicate to most reasonable people that he was in control of the situation, and if he was in control, he would not have feared for his life. Therefore the killing of Martin becomes not self-defense, but murder.
So this woman's testimony is absoututely crucial, IMO.
But in another interview with investigators six days later, the paper reported, she was sure: It was Zimmerman on top.
"I know after seeing the TV of what's happening, comparing their sizes, I think Zimmerman was definitely on top because of his size," the woman, "Witness 12," said.
Now earlier I wrote that I wanted to know the actual sizes of Zimmerman and Martin, and I was told it doesn't make any difference. Well, it might make a difference. I'd sure like to know. As Christo points out, this woman could be referring to the various news reports which had Zimmerman at 250 lbs- he obviously doesn't weigh that much.
BUT- supposing there IS a significant weight difference and Zimmerman weighs more than Martin, and supposing this woman testifies in court that she is "definitely certain" that Zimmerman was the one on top- and supposing the jury believes her and not Zimmerman- if all this happens then Zimmerman is going to be convicted. Because it really doesn't matter if Zimmerman has injuries or even how the fight started at that point. If Zimmerman was on top that would indicate to most reasonable people that he was in control of the situation, and if he was in control, he would not have feared for his life. Therefore the killing of Martin becomes not self-defense, but murder.
So this woman's testimony is absoututely crucial, IMO.
TheAristocrat
Footballguy
If I wanted to rush to judgement without analyzing the facts, which side should I join?
timschochet
Footballguy
Either side will work for this. Take your pick.
Witz
Footballguy
I'm not so sure about that with regards to witness 12. In their initial statement, they noted they saw two people on the ground but didn't know who was on top and only later said it was Zimmerman due to the size based on what they saw on tv (not that they clearly saw Zimmerman as the one being on top - their 'view' was based on the two individuals size). Witness 6 on the other hand, hasn't changed their story at all - they have always maintained that Martin was on top of Zimmerman.
Carolina Hustler
Footballguy
easy answer.. Anti Zimmerman Mob..
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
I dont know C.H, that answer seems rather rushed
The idea that Zimmerman is a racist is a bizarre one based mostly on Tim's feelings that it simply must be to fit nicely into his dinner time discussions with all his black friends.
Yet your response was even more rushed.
BroadwayG
Footballguy
They have to take a few bong hits first.
A half-decent defense attorney will rip this witness to shreds. She seems to have little idea what she saw, and changed her story after the fact? She compared her memory of what she vaguely saw to pictures she saw on TV? The pictures on TV looked nothing like the actual participants? If anything, on a fleeting glance, most people would probably think Martin was larger based simply on height.
timschochet
Footballguy
I don't understand why this issue remains a matter of confusion. We've seen Zimmerman in court; presumably he was weighed and his height was checked when he was arrested. They have Martin's body; presumably his height and weight were recorded by the coroner. Yet for some reason these numbers remain shrouded in mystery. None of the news services have looked into this to report the facts. Instead, we get photos on TV and witnesses saying, "Well, I think THIS guy was bigger." Just give us the facts. How tall are they, and how much do they weigh? Why can't we settle this question?
Because if the media gives us clear cut facts instead of speculation, hyperbole, and "unanswered, mysterious questions", we'll stop watching because we now know the information we wanted in the first place?
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
George Zimmerman's 'Cozy' Relationship With Sanford Police Questioned.Neighborhood watchman George Zimmerman had a relationship with members of the police department in Sanford, Fla., long before he shot unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin to death in February, newly released information suggests.
During a community forum on Jan. 8, 2011, more than a year before Martin was killed, Zimmerman, then a criminal justice student, told city officials he had ridden along with Sanford police officers on patrol. Zimmerman blasted Sanford police as lazy and criticized outgoing Police Chief Brian Tooley, who was forced from office in a scandal involving the son of an officer caught on tape beating a homeless black man.
“I would just like to state that the law is written in black and white, it can not be enforced by those who are in the thin blue line,” Zimmerman told an audience that included newly elected Mayor Jeff Triplett, according to an audio recording published by the Miami Herald. Zimmerman said he saw firsthand how bad Sanford police could be during his ride-alongs.
“What I saw was disgusting,” Zimmerman said, “The officer showed me his favorite hiding spots for taking naps, explained to me that he doesn’t carry a long gun in his vehicle because, in his words, ‘anything that requires a long gun requires a lot of paperwork, and you’re going to find me as far away from it.’” Zimmerman continued: “He took two lunch breaks and attended a going away party for one of his fellow officers.”
Zimmerman had longed to be a law enforcement officer and lobbied local law enforcement officials for a job. He was a student at nearby Seminole County Community College, where former Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee, who stepped down amid the Martin scandal, was a professor and ran the police academy.
According to the Herald report, city records show that in March 2010, Zimmerman’s application to ride along with the police was approved despite a background check revealing a criminal history that included resisting arrest and assault on a police officer. (The charges were later dropped.) Zimmerman wrote on the application that he hoped the ride-along would “solidify my interest in a career in law enforcement.”
"We do not have specific dates Mr. Zimmerman may have ridden or with whom he rode, if in fact he ever did ride" with Sanford police, Capt. Robert O'Connor said in a statement. Interim Police Chief Richard Myers said it would be “inappropriate” to draw conclusions from Zimmerman’s 2010 speech before the city council.
“As a police chief, I embrace the notion that transparency helps build public trust, but in this case, the need to preserve the sanctity of a criminal prosecution, for both the prosecutor and the defense, requires us to eschew making any comments that could taint the process,” Myers said in a statement.
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
A number of issues of Zimmerman's neighborhood newsletter, "Retreat Reflections," were included in the 183 pages of discovery documents made public Thursday in Zimmerman's second-degree murder case. They were certainly not the most newsworthy items in the stack. More immediately compelling was the fact that the Sanford police essentially blamed Zimmerman for recklessly engaging in the Feb. 26 encounter with Trayvon Martin, the unarmed black teenager Zimmerman had decided was a suspicious character in the neighborhood.
The documents also show that a Sanford police investigator, Trekell Perkins, received a phone call from an anonymous woman two days after the shooting who said that Zimmerman had "racist ideologies," and was "fully capable" of instigating a deadly confrontation.
Police noted that no other information was obtained to corroborate the claim. Zimmerman's friends and family have maintained that he is not prejudiced.
In a March 13 request for the issuance of a capias to authorize Zimmerman's arrest, police noted that "on August 3, August 4 and October 6, 2011, and February 2, 2012, George Zimmerman reported suspicious persons, all young Black males, in the Retreat neighborhood to the Sanford Police Department. According to records checks, all of Zimmerman's suspicious persons calls while residing in the Retreat neighborhood have identified Black males as the subjects."
The documents also show that a Sanford police investigator, Trekell Perkins, received a phone call from an anonymous woman two days after the shooting who said that Zimmerman had "racist ideologies," and was "fully capable" of instigating a deadly confrontation.
Police noted that no other information was obtained to corroborate the claim. Zimmerman's friends and family have maintained that he is not prejudiced.
In a March 13 request for the issuance of a capias to authorize Zimmerman's arrest, police noted that "on August 3, August 4 and October 6, 2011, and February 2, 2012, George Zimmerman reported suspicious persons, all young Black males, in the Retreat neighborhood to the Sanford Police Department. According to records checks, all of Zimmerman's suspicious persons calls while residing in the Retreat neighborhood have identified Black males as the subjects."
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
Interesting video timeline of events and how long the EMT`s treated Zimmerman.
http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2012/04/02/nr-trayvon-martin-timeline.cnn#/video/bestoftv/2012/04/02/nr-trayvon-martin-timeline.cnn
http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2012/04/02/nr-trayvon-martin-timeline.cnn#/video/bestoftv/2012/04/02/nr-trayvon-martin-timeline.cnn
timschochet
Footballguy
Why am I not surprised by this? As I said, I had no proof, but if it walks like a duck...
timschochet
Footballguy
Needless to say this doesn't shock me either. Hopefully some more information will come out about it.
If the surrounding neighborhoods are largely black, it is just a silly assertion. But you are quick to label Zimmerman a racist. Four events is statistically insignificant.
timschochet
Footballguy
It's just a feel I get, jon. Sometimes you can sense it. The events are only somewhat of a confirmation of what I already feel. But even if he is a racist, that doesn't make him guilty of a crime.
A feeling you get from three thousand miles away and filtered through crappy media sensationalism?
timschochet
Footballguy
Truly pitiful that anyone would put any weight into an anonymous call in such an emotionally charged case.
TexanFan02
Footballguy
Zimmerman confronted Martin at 7:15, killed him at 7:16? Give him the chair.
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
No different than the pro-zimms believing all the thug crap about treyvon.
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
Yep. At least you have tim in the right cagegory.No different than the pro-zimms believing all the thug crap about treyvon.
timschochet
Footballguy
What category is that?Yep. At least you have tim in the right cagegory.No different than the pro-zimms believing all the thug crap about treyvon.
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
its not so much the number of times , its the why.From DeLuca:
On April 22, 2011, Zimmerman called to report a black male about “7-9” years old, four feet tall, with a “skinny build” and short black hair. There is no indication in the police report of the reason for Zimmerman’s suspicion of the boy.
TexanFan02
Footballguy
That's why. He's like Clinton, but he kills people.
jonessed
Footballguy
Charlie Frown
Footballguy
OMG.
