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Ran a 10k in June (3 Viewers)

'SFBayDuck said:
Good stuff. I'm starting to look into this a bit more as well. I bought the eBook Metabolic Efficiency Training by Bob Seebohar and have started reading that. Also starting to look into Phil Maffetone's work, as he's often referenced on the Endurance Planet podcast relative to HR training. My interest in all of this, considering I want to get back to the ultra distance again, is tapping into the (much more than adequate) fat stores I have and rely less on having to consume carbs when on the move for several hours - and the risk of GI distress that can come with that. So I want to train my body to burn fat as efficiently as possible, eventually at a higher pace than it does now.
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I attended a talk by Seebohar last fall here in Appleton about coaching and sports nutrition. Dude was actually the sport dietitian for the U.S. team at the 2008 Summer Olympics. I started reading Nutrition Periodization for Athletes, but the beginning part was pretty boring, so I set it aside, and I never picked it back up. Need to try again, I suppose.---------

Had some time between meetings in Milwaukee today, so I headed out around 10:45 for an easy 4-miler. Already a suck index of 156 (78/68), so I was soaked by the time I finished in a little over 33 minutes. Meeting one of my sales reps tomorrow morning for an easy 10, and then 14 with tri-man on Saturday.

 
'BassNBrew said:
'sho nuff said:
'Ned said:
'tri-man 47 said:
'Hugh One said:
Anywho, just wanted to pop in and introduce myself and say hello. :)
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:bye:
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:thumbup: The growth of this thread in the past year is awesome. The more the merrier.
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Yeah...but can we recruit some more who aren't all faster than me?
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I can fire up my alias and start posting if that makes you feel better.
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:thumbup: Nah...just playing.I can still remember my younger days of being a pretty fast 400m runner.Now its all about getting and staying healthy and enjoying my time out on the road (most days).And December 1st...finishing something none of my friends have done (well, one will be doing it that same day).
 
'BassNBrew said:
'Juxtatarot said:
Just curious, how did you come to this conclusion? Is this "no fly zone" idea generally accepted outside of Pfitz's book?
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Yes, but after researching this more it would be zone 3 for many people. I've looked at several different websites/definitions of these zones and the overlap is huge. I've done the testing in the lab so I know scientifically where my numbers are.There is an exertion level where your body uses fat as it's largest percentage of fuel. That can be tied to a hr number. If you train here your body will adapt to using fat as a fuel source at a higher percentage level when you race at harder levels. This is a huge benefit because you can only process 250-350 max cal per hour while exercising. If your fuel source is weighted to heavy to carbs vs. fat, you will boink. Bascially you want to train your body to be efficient at burning fat.The "no fly zone" is an area where you're going to fast to get a good fat burn ratio and putting some wear into the legs. It's also to slow to see much in the way of speed gains. You can get endurance benefits in the no fly zone, but you'll still get these at the slower pace.
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OK, from personal experience (and, thus, gut feeling), that might make sense for me more for your zone 3. It's something to think about. Thanks for the info.
 
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'Ned said:
'IvanKaramazov said:
'Ned said:
Day 3, week 2 Pfitz 18/70 - 5mi RecoveryFunny how things can change from day to day. As good as yesterday was, today sucked. Tired legs plus a 150 suck index (79/71) made for a crummy recovery run. Main goal was to stay in recovery effort (136 or below) which I barely made. 10:18/136I'll consider myself lucky that I was able to get this in at lunch time before the crazy heat hits today. We had a passing shower come by just as I started running, which kept the sun at bay for the majority. Supposed to get up to 110 heat index later this afternooon. :X
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I don't know if this plays any role for you or no, but I find it completely impossible to motivate myself to do these runs. Psychologically, I've already chalked up the day as a "rest day," so when I go out for a recovery run, I'm not really in the proper mindset and I just want to get the run over with so I can get back home or back to the office or whatever. And even though I'm thinking "well, it's only 5 miles," that's a still a substantial time commitment, especially when you count going to and from the gym, showering, etc. All that mental stuff adds up to an exaggerated sense of unpleasantness, at least for me. In other words, tempo runs and key workouts like that often aren't that bad because they're fun and it's easy to get psyched up for them, whereas these sorts of runs kind of get to be a grind after a while.
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Yeah I agree to a point. I have developed a love/hate relationship with recovery runs. Some days they're really therapeutic for me and I love them. Other days, like today, they just flat out suck. I agree with you on the mental aspect of it. I also think going at a pace slow enough to get the HR down to an effective range can be really ineficient, which adds to this crummy feeling.
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Two words for overcoming the recovery run blues: Trail Running! Forget pace because by it's very nature it's going to be slower than usual, and run by perceived effort (or HR if you must). Of course I'm a little biased, what with my pavement allergy and all :)
'sho nuff said:
'Ned said:
'tri-man 47 said:
'Hugh One said:
Anywho, just wanted to pop in and introduce myself and say hello. :)
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:bye:
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:thumbup: The growth of this thread in the past year is awesome. The more the merrier.
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Yeah...but can we recruit some more who aren't all faster than me?
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I'm back, and slower than just about everyone in here.
 
'IvanKaramazov said:
I don't know if this plays any role for you or no, but I find it completely impossible to motivate myself to do these runs. Psychologically, I've already chalked up the day as a "rest day," so when I go out for a recovery run, I'm not really in the proper mindset and I just want to get the run over with so I can get back home or back to the office or whatever. And even though I'm thinking "well, it's only 5 miles," that's a still a substantial time commitment, especially when you count going to and from the gym, showering, etc. All that mental stuff adds up to an exaggerated sense of unpleasantness, at least for me. In other words, tempo runs and key workouts like that often aren't that bad because they're fun and it's easy to get psyched up for them, whereas these sorts of runs kind of get to be a grind after a while.
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Right there with you. Today's run and Sunday's are typically recovery runs for me. Most of the time it's a toss up between drilling a hole in my head or running at 5am on Sunday. I look at it as logging miles that I will need at some point but they still suck.
'sho nuff said:
'Ned said:
'tri-man 47 said:
'Hugh One said:
Anywho, just wanted to pop in and introduce myself and say hello. :)
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:bye:
Click to expand...
:thumbup: The growth of this thread in the past year is awesome. The more the merrier.
Click to expand...
Yeah...but can we recruit some more who aren't all faster than me?
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:hey: Here to help, what can I do for you?
 
Man, it's always amazing how much difference there can be in one's performance from day to day. Just my second run now that I'm starting my Pfitz schedule calling for 8 miles with 4 LT miles at 15K to half marathon pace. It's hot and humid this evening (where's a good site to calculate the local hourly suck index?) but not THAT hot and humid. I just ran my half in under a 7:00 minute mile pace so I figured it wouldn't be that hard to run the piddly 4 miles at a little faster pace than that, right?

Well those four miles kicked my ###.

1. 7:00, 158 HR

2. 7:04, 165

3. 6:55 169

4. 6:52, 172

That last mile I just about died. It seriously was harder to finish that one than mile 13 on Sunday. I'm not sure how much of this was due to the worse weather conditions and how much was due to lingering fatigue from Sunday.

 
Great stuff in here as always. Welcome to the new people.

Quick question. I was going to start the Higdon half marathon intermediate plan next week. His plan would have me running less miles a week then I am currently running. Has anyone ever added 2-3 miles to the plans scheduled runs? If I did that to all of the runs it should be cool, right?

If I do that how much time would/should I add to his timed runs?

Would I change a 30 min tempo run to a 50-60 min tempo run?

 
SFBD - That's a great idea. I'll try to work this into the rotation as time allows (probably weekends only). I'm spoiled rotten, but it'll have to be convenient for me to drive out to the trails for a 5mi run. Running on the softer surface will be a big benefit on a recovery run.

Jux - That's an impressive run coming off the heels of a massive HM PR. I'd chalk it up to both conditions and race fatigue. Listen to the HR! I don't know your LT, but that last mile looks like you probably blew right through LT, which would've factored into how you felt at the end.

prosopis- If the mileage looks too tame, why not take a shot at the advanced plan?

Ivan - I thought more about our recovery run discussion this morning while I was running. I think another factor that is easily overlooked is we're running a recovery run for a reason. We just did 1-2 hard workouts prior to that recovery run, so we're going to be more tired than usual. It's much harder to enjoy it when you're on dead/tired legs. :2cents:

 
Day 4, week 2 Pfitz 18/70 - 9mi GA

My wife had to work today, so I needed to get up at 3:45 to get my run in or else I'd be running it in the wicked heat this afternoon. :X It was 72/71 at 4:30 and everything was completely soaked outside from the huge storms that blew through last night. There was some dense fog out there which was kinda cool to see as the sun came up. Despite the humidity (I swear it feels worse when the dew is close to the air temp), I had a solid run. HR and pacing were scattered to start off, but leveled off around the 4th-5th miles. My pace was better on the 2nd half with the same effort, which is motivating to see in these conditions. Ended up at 9:09/150

 
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Day 3 week 2 of 18/55

4 mile recovery

Still a bit sticky, but the 70/69 was preferable over the crap we have been getting.

Nice and easy 4 miles at 10:50...felt great.

Tomorrow is going to kick my ### though.

 
'prosopis said:
Great stuff in here as always. Welcome to the new people.Quick question. I was going to start the Higdon half marathon intermediate plan next week. His plan would have me running less miles a week then I am currently running. Has anyone ever added 2-3 miles to the plans scheduled runs? If I did that to all of the runs it should be cool, right?If I do that how much time would/should I add to his timed runs?Would I change a 30 min tempo run to a 50-60 min tempo run?
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I'm looking at Higdon's Intermediate II, and I don't see any tempo runs on there. Are you sure you aren't looking at one of his Advanced plans? Higdon's tempo runs are quite a bit different than what most of us do with Pfitzinger's plans, and extending them is probably fine. If you want to add miles, I'd start by adding length to his midweek medium-long run. He maxes those out at 10 miles, and you could definitely add two miles to every single one of them. You could also bump all the short runs up to a 5 mile minimum, and extend the "rest week" long runs from 12 to 14-16. In other words, I wouldn't just add 2-3 miles to every run across the board -- you want to keep some relatively short runs in there, and the risk-reward ratio of extending all the long runs isn't especially favorable.Edit: Or like Ned said, maybe just find a different plan that fits what you're looking for a little better.
 
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'Ned said:
Day 4, week 2 Pfitz 18/70 - 9mi GAMy wife had to work today, so I needed to get up at 3:45 to get my run in or else I'd be running it in the wicked heat this afternoon. :X It was 72/71 at 4:30 and everything was completely soaked outside from the huge storms that blew through last night. There was some dense fog out there which was kinda cool to see as the sun came up. Despite the humidity (I swear it feels worse when the dew is close to the air temp), I had a solid run. HR and pacing were scattered to start off, but leveled off around the 4th-5th miles. My pace was better on the 2nd half with the same effort, which is motivating to see in these conditions. Ended up at 9:09/150
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You must live near me, lol. Went at 5:30 for a quick 8 miler, don't know the exact suck index value, but it sucked. 8 miles felt like 15. Hot and humid as balls. Managed about an 8:30 pace but it nearly killed me. Was going to run 10 but it was just too flippin hot. Yeah, I know, excuses, excuses. :doh:
 
'prosopis said:
Great stuff in here as always. Welcome to the new people.Quick question. I was going to start the Higdon half marathon intermediate plan next week. His plan would have me running less miles a week then I am currently running. Has anyone ever added 2-3 miles to the plans scheduled runs? If I did that to all of the runs it should be cool, right?If I do that how much time would/should I add to his timed runs?Would I change a 30 min tempo run to a 50-60 min tempo run?
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Why not add a bit more aggressive approach to the stretch/strengthen Mondays and the rest/easy run days instead? Bike, swim, elliptical, etc. You'd get the added cardio, without the added pounding. Plus, it'd be a nice metal break from running. Or, you could add non impact cardio on to the ends of some of your scheduled run days. Again, more cardio without the pounding. As I recall, you've tried the pool. Keep at it. Run/swim doubles are one of my favorites. I like to have about two hours between the run and the swim. My legs feel better after the swim, compared to if I'd just run.
 
'Hugh One said:
You must live near me, lol. Went at 5:30 for a quick 8 miler, don't know the exact suck index value, but it sucked. 8 miles felt like 15. Hot and humid as balls. Managed about an 8:30 pace but it nearly killed me. Was going to run 10 but it was just too flippin hot. Yeah, I know, excuses, excuses. :doh:
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Are you following a specific training program? If so, which one?
 
'Ned said:
Jux - That's an impressive run coming off the heels of a massive HM PR. I'd chalk it up to both conditions and race fatigue. Listen to the HR! I don't know your LT, but that last mile looks like you probably blew right through LT, which would've factored into how you felt at the end.
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Yes, you're right. Running gets real difficult when I get over 170. I should have slowed but I can be a bit stubborn. I have a day off today, followed by a recovery run Saturday and a 15 miler Sunday. I'll make sure to run those sloooow.

 
'prosopis said:
Great stuff in here as always. Welcome to the new people.Quick question. I was going to start the Higdon half marathon intermediate plan next week. His plan would have me running less miles a week then I am currently running. Has anyone ever added 2-3 miles to the plans scheduled runs? If I did that to all of the runs it should be cool, right?If I do that how much time would/should I add to his timed runs?Would I change a 30 min tempo run to a 50-60 min tempo run?
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You and I should get together. I started the same program about a month & half ago with the same question. I had just logged back-to-back 22 mile weeks so what I did (keep in mind when I started, I had no specific date in mind, just wanted to formalize my training) was start at week 4 which was pretty close to what I was doing anyhow. I'm on week 8 now. If you have a specific race targeted then I would look at the advanced training to fit your schedule. If you're like me and just wanted some direction in your training then bump up a few weeks in the intermediate schedule and go from there.
'sho nuff said:
Day 3 week 2 of 18/554 mile recoveryStill a bit sticky, but the 70/69 was preferable over the crap we have been getting.Nice and easy 4 miles at 10:50...felt great.Tomorrow is going to kick my ### though.
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Same here, I'm shooting for 11 miles tomorrow so I need to get up stupid early to beat the heat. I'm nervous/excited about it. Never put that many miles on before.
 
'Juxtatarot said:
'Hugh One said:
You must live near me, lol. Went at 5:30 for a quick 8 miler, don't know the exact suck index value, but it sucked. 8 miles felt like 15. Hot and humid as balls. Managed about an 8:30 pace but it nearly killed me. Was going to run 10 but it was just too flippin hot. Yeah, I know, excuses, excuses. :doh:
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Are you following a specific training program? If so, which one?
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I'm more or less following this, which called for a 10 miler on Sunday. I usually do my long runs on Saturday instead, and this week I won't have time so I bumped it up to today. I'll switch the days around a little here and there but try to stick to the mileage more or less.http://www.ingnycmarathon.com/pdf/MTP_Moderate.pdf
 
'beer 302 said:
'prosopis said:
Great stuff in here as always. Welcome to the new people.Quick question. I was going to start the Higdon half marathon intermediate plan next week. His plan would have me running less miles a week then I am currently running. Has anyone ever added 2-3 miles to the plans scheduled runs? If I did that to all of the runs it should be cool, right?If I do that how much time would/should I add to his timed runs?Would I change a 30 min tempo run to a 50-60 min tempo run?
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You and I should get together. I started the same program about a month & half ago with the same question. I had just logged back-to-back 22 mile weeks so what I did (keep in mind when I started, I had no specific date in mind, just wanted to formalize my training) was start at week 4 which was pretty close to what I was doing anyhow. I'm on week 8 now. If you have a specific race targeted then I would look at the advanced training to fit your schedule. If you're like me and just wanted some direction in your training then bump up a few weeks in the intermediate schedule and go from there.
'sho nuff said:
Day 3 week 2 of 18/554 mile recoveryStill a bit sticky, but the 70/69 was preferable over the crap we have been getting.Nice and easy 4 miles at 10:50...felt great.Tomorrow is going to kick my ### though.
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Same here, I'm shooting for 11 miles tomorrow so I need to get up stupid early to beat the heat. I'm nervous/excited about it. Never put that many miles on before.
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Tomorrow is 13 w/8 at marathon pace.Going to be an early one...but forecasts are still for about 75/70 even at 5-6 am.
 
'Hugh One said:
'Juxtatarot said:
'Hugh One said:
You must live near me, lol. Went at 5:30 for a quick 8 miler, don't know the exact suck index value, but it sucked. 8 miles felt like 15. Hot and humid as balls. Managed about an 8:30 pace but it nearly killed me. Was going to run 10 but it was just too flippin hot. Yeah, I know, excuses, excuses. :doh:
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Are you following a specific training program? If so, which one?
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I'm more or less following this, which called for a 10 miler on Sunday. I usually do my long runs on Saturday instead, and this week I won't have time so I bumped it up to today. I'll switch the days around a little here and there but try to stick to the mileage more or less.http://www.ingnycmarathon.com/pdf/MTP_Moderate.pdf
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OK. I'd have no idea how to deal with those "AYF" days.
 
'BassNBrew said:
'Juxtatarot said:
Just curious, how did you come to this conclusion? Is this "no fly zone" idea generally accepted outside of Pfitz's book?
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Yes, but after researching this more it would be zone 3 for many people. I've looked at several different websites/definitions of these zones and the overlap is huge. I've done the testing in the lab so I know scientifically where my numbers are.There is an exertion level where your body uses fat as it's largest percentage of fuel. That can be tied to a hr number. If you train here your body will adapt to using fat as a fuel source at a higher percentage level when you race at harder levels. This is a huge benefit because you can only process 250-350 max cal per hour while exercising. If your fuel source is weighted to heavy to carbs vs. fat, you will boink. Bascially you want to train your body to be efficient at burning fat.The "no fly zone" is an area where you're going to fast to get a good fat burn ratio and putting some wear into the legs. It's also to slow to see much in the way of speed gains. You can get endurance benefits in the no fly zone, but you'll still get these at the slower pace.
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Been meaning to get back to this discussion...We're basically 10bpm different (I'm guessing you're around a 185 max?). My zones that I've been following mirror yours, however I agree that zone 3 is the no-man's land/no fly zone. The exception for this is marathon pace runs. I think there's definitely some benefit to doing them, sparingly.recovery - <137Zone 1 (long runs) - 137-147Zone 2 (general aerobic) - 147-157 (a lot of books/sites only call for this with more experienced runners)Zone 3 (Marathon pacing) - 157-167Zone 4 (LT) - 167-177Zone 5 (VO2 max) - 177-195
 
On another note, any of you guys deal with ITB issues? I've had to bail on a few marathons because as I got deeper into the training and started increasing the mileage, I would get stabbing pains in my knee, especially on the long runs. Got to the point where I couldn't continue running. I've been doing a lot more stretching lately, and have an ITB band that I wrap around the area (first time I've used this), and so far I'm pretty much pain free. But I'm worried that when the 15, 18 and 20 milers come, my issue might come back. Just wondering if anyone has suggestions or tips on battling this issue.

Thanks in advance. :thumbup:

 
12.05 miles this morning. 9:55 pace, 137 hr.

Suck index was between 162 and 166.

Pace was about as consistant as can be expected in this weather. Sub 10s for the first 7 miles, one blow up mi at 10:30 follow by four miles at 10:11, 10:15, 10:11, and 10:11. Thought that was kind of cool.

 
'Hugh One said:
On another note, any of you guys deal with ITB issues? I've had to bail on a few marathons because as I got deeper into the training and started increasing the mileage, I would get stabbing pains in my knee, especially on the long runs. Got to the point where I couldn't continue running. I've been doing a lot more stretching lately, and have an ITB band that I wrap around the area (first time I've used this), and so far I'm pretty much pain free. But I'm worried that when the 15, 18 and 20 milers come, my issue might come back. Just wondering if anyone has suggestions or tips on battling this issue.

Thanks in advance. :thumbup:
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1 -
2 - See a good sports massage therapist and tell them about your ITB. They'll work the ever living crap out of it, which will help a lot.

3 - Targeted stretching

 
'Juxtatarot said:
'Hugh One said:
'Juxtatarot said:
'Hugh One said:
You must live near me, lol. Went at 5:30 for a quick 8 miler, don't know the exact suck index value, but it sucked. 8 miles felt like 15. Hot and humid as balls. Managed about an 8:30 pace but it nearly killed me. Was going to run 10 but it was just too flippin hot. Yeah, I know, excuses, excuses. :doh:
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Are you following a specific training program? If so, which one?
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I'm more or less following this, which called for a 10 miler on Sunday. I usually do my long runs on Saturday instead, and this week I won't have time so I bumped it up to today. I'll switch the days around a little here and there but try to stick to the mileage more or less.http://www.ingnycmarathon.com/pdf/MTP_Moderate.pdf
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OK. I'd have no idea how to deal with those "AYF" days.
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I'll just run my normal 3-4 mile pace on a tread mill. On the flex days I'll do 30 minutes on the step mill. The rest is pretty straight forward I think. Although I've never interval runs, so I'm not quite sure how that will play out.
 
'Hugh One said:
In the past I've just ran miles at the best sustainable pace for the distance of the runs,
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'Hugh One said:
On another note, any of you guys deal with ITB issues? I've had to bail on a few marathons because as I got deeper into the training and started increasing the mileage, I would get stabbing pains in my knee, especially on the long runs. Got to the point where I couldn't continue running. I've been doing a lot more stretching lately, and have an ITB band that I wrap around the area (first time I've used this), and so far I'm pretty much pain free. But I'm worried that when the 15, 18 and 20 milers come, my issue might come back. Just wondering if anyone has suggestions or tips on battling this issue.Thanks in advance. :thumbup:
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Based on the your first quote, you may have been running too fast during training setting yourself up for injuries. Perhaps by slowing down (generally) and following your schedule, your body will be able to handle the stress better.
 
'Juxtatarot said:
'Hugh One said:
In the past I've just ran miles at the best sustainable pace for the distance of the runs,
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'Hugh One said:
On another note, any of you guys deal with ITB issues? I've had to bail on a few marathons because as I got deeper into the training and started increasing the mileage, I would get stabbing pains in my knee, especially on the long runs. Got to the point where I couldn't continue running. I've been doing a lot more stretching lately, and have an ITB band that I wrap around the area (first time I've used this), and so far I'm pretty much pain free. But I'm worried that when the 15, 18 and 20 milers come, my issue might come back. Just wondering if anyone has suggestions or tips on battling this issue.Thanks in advance. :thumbup:
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Based on the your first quote, you may have been running too fast during training setting yourself up for injuries. Perhaps by slowing down (generally) and following your schedule, your body will be able to handle the stress better.
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Agreed. This new training program I'm following should help as well because there are less miles, some slower runs, a bit of cross training, etc. I'll be pro-active about the ITB as well, with stretching, foam rolling, tissue massages, a tens unit, etc.
 
I will have to check my higdon book when I get home. I am pretty sure there were tempo runs in the intermediate plan. I chose intermediate because advanced plan seemed to be all timed runs. I prefer to know how many miles I am going instead of how long. Intermediate is also 5 days a week as opposed to 6 which is better for family life. I have a half scheduled for 10/21/12. Same one as last year that has A Mountain involved. Booooo

 
'Ned said:
'Hugh One said:
On another note, any of you guys deal with ITB issues? I've had to bail on a few marathons because as I got deeper into the training and started increasing the mileage, I would get stabbing pains in my knee, especially on the long runs. Got to the point where I couldn't continue running. I've been doing a lot more stretching lately, and have an ITB band that I wrap around the area (first time I've used this), and so far I'm pretty much pain free. But I'm worried that when the 15, 18 and 20 milers come, my issue might come back. Just wondering if anyone has suggestions or tips on battling this issue.

Thanks in advance. :thumbup:
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Good stuff. Thanks. I own a foam roller but his technique looks better than what I've been doing. Also, on that link to the runningtimes you posted, there's another article called beating the ITB, also very helpful. Thanks again, appreciate it. :thumbup:

 
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'prosopis said:
I will have to check my higdon book when I get home. I am pretty sure there were tempo runs in the intermediate plan. I chose intermediate because advanced plan seemed to be all timed runs. I prefer to know how many miles I am going instead of how long. Intermediate is also 5 days a week as opposed to 6 which is better for family life. I have a half scheduled for 10/21/12. Same one as last year that has A Mountain involved. Booooo
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There are, I ran a 40 minute tempo run on Wednesday. It flips every Wednesday between tempo runs & intervals. I've flopped the weekend runs because I can't do the LR's on Sunday. I'm considering changing it again so I get Sunday off since doing 5 after doing 11 pretty much sucks ###. Wednesday and Sunday are the hard training days in the intermediate workout.
 
'Juxtatarot said:
It's hot and humid this evening (where's a good site to calculate the local hourly suck index?) but not THAT hot and humid.
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Weather Underground. Type in your zip code, and then scroll down to where it says "History & Almanac." Choose the date you want and click "View," and it'll show you hour-by-hour conditions.
'Ned said:
Jux - That's an impressive run coming off the heels of a massive HM PR. I'd chalk it up to both conditions and race fatigue. Listen to the HR! I don't know your LT, but that last mile looks like you probably blew right through LT, which would've factored into how you felt at the end.
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LT runs are supposed to hurt. You know what the paces are supposed to be; just run 'em! Screw Ned and his stupid HR!! :P ----------------

10 humid miles for me this morning along the Menomonee River Parkway here in Milwaukee. Started out fairly easy and picked it up towards the end. I think we ended up averaging just a tad over 8:00/mile. I was positively soaked when we finished. Wrung a ton of sweat out of my singlet. Gross.

 
'gruecd said:
10 humid miles for me this morning along the Menomonee River Parkway here in Milwaukee. Started out fairly easy and picked it up towards the end. I think we ended up averaging just a tad over 8:00/mile. I was positively soaked when we finished. Wrung a ton of sweat out of my singlet. Gross.
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8 miles for me with some x-way overpass 'hills' as part of some loops. Overall 8:17 pace and 147 HR. We should both be just a bit comfortably tired for our 14 tomorrow. It'll be a shaded run on the trail, though we'll need to have our own fluids.My kids (22 and 26) have their first-ever 5K tomorrow morning along Chicago's lakefront. :thumbup:
 
'tri-man 47 said:
8 miles for me with some x-way overpass 'hills' as part of some loops. Overall 8:17 pace and 147 HR. We should both be just a bit comfortably tired for our 14 tomorrow. It'll be a shaded run on the trail, though we'll need to have our own fluids.
Click to expand...
Sounds good. :thumbup: I've got my 20-ounce handheld, but that probably won't be enough if we're going to be running for almost 2 hours. Are we gonna run loops or something and stop back at the car?
 
'gruecd said:
'tri-man 47 said:
8 miles for me with some x-way overpass 'hills' as part of some loops. Overall 8:17 pace and 147 HR. We should both be just a bit comfortably tired for our 14 tomorrow. It'll be a shaded run on the trail, though we'll need to have our own fluids.
Click to expand...
Sounds good. :thumbup: I've got my 20-ounce handheld, but that probably won't be enough if we're going to be running for almost 2 hours. Are we gonna run loops or something and stop back at the car?
Click to expand...
Screw the loops, out and back. Two men go out with enough water for one...
 
'BassNBrew said:
'gruecd said:
'tri-man 47 said:
8 miles for me with some x-way overpass 'hills' as part of some loops. Overall 8:17 pace and 147 HR. We should both be just a bit comfortably tired for our 14 tomorrow. It'll be a shaded run on the trail, though we'll need to have our own fluids.
Click to expand...
Sounds good. :thumbup: I've got my 20-ounce handheld, but that probably won't be enough if we're going to be running for almost 2 hours. Are we gonna run loops or something and stop back at the car?
Click to expand...
Screw the loops, out and back. Two men go out with enough water for one...
Click to expand...
Hah...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
For the higdon intermediate plan are your weekend long runs and runs during the week done at the same pace?

I am of course excluding the tempo,pace,and rest runs. I just dont know what pace he wants week day "run" at.

Grue&Tri- sounds like fun. I gotta admit I am rooting for the old man ;)

 
'prosopis said:
For the higdon intermediate plan are your weekend long runs and runs during the week done at the same pace?I am of course excluding the tempo,pace,and rest runs. I just dont know what pace he wants week day "run" at.Grue&Tri- sounds like fun. I gotta admit I am rooting for the old man ;)
Click to expand...
All my runs are the same, balls-to-the-wall baby!LR - I shoot for a pace I think I can achieve. The last two 10 milers I shoot for 10:30ish pace which is what I would consider a good 1/2 marathon pace for meTempo & Interval - I have been trying to run at more of a 5k pace to get in some speed work which for me, is 9:00-9:30ish pace.Recovery - somehow always turn into a something between 9:40 and 10:40 times simply because I'd have to go so damn slow it would be closer to a walk rather than a run. With week 8 these runs are starting to edge out of my comfort zone of 4-4.5 miles so I really need to start watching my pacing and actually doing what I'm supposed to.One thing I have noticed is my pace has slowly been getting faster (very slowly) but like yesterday's 3 miler that was supposed to be a recover type run, my first mile was 9:18 and it felt good so I said #### it, it's only 3 and decided to try to hold that pace for the whole run, ended up averaging 9:21. Probably should have been more around 10:30-10:40 range for me.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
'beer 302 said:
'prosopis said:
For the higdon intermediate plan are your weekend long runs and runs during the week done at the same pace?

I am of course excluding the tempo,pace,and rest runs. I just dont know what pace he wants week day "run" at.

Grue&Tri- sounds like fun. I gotta admit I am rooting for the old man ;)
Click to expand...
All my runs are the same, balls-to-the-wall baby!LR - I shoot for a pace I think I can achieve. The last two 10 milers I shoot for 10:30ish pace which is what I would consider a good 1/2 marathon pace for me

Tempo & Interval - I have been trying to run at more of a 5k pace to get in some speed work which for me, is 9:00-9:30ish pace.

Recovery - somehow always turn into a something between 9:40 and 10:40 times simply because I'd have to go so damn slow it would be closer to a walk rather than a run. With week 8 these runs are starting to edge out of my comfort zone of 4-4.5 miles so I really need to start watching my pacing and actually doing what I'm supposed to.

One thing I have noticed is my pace has slowly been getting faster (very slowly) but like yesterday's 3 miler that was supposed to be a recover type run, my first mile was 9:18 and it felt good so I said #### it, it's only 3 and decided to try to hold that pace for the whole run, ended up averaging 9:21. Probably should have been more around 10:30-10:40 range for me.
Click to expand...
This is a habit you need to break. You should be doing almost no regular running at half-marathon pace, but that's WAY closer to "tempo" pace than it is to "long run" pace. I know it's counterintuitive, but over time you will gain more speed by doing your long runs slow than by doing them fast.
 
'IvanKaramazov said:
'beer 302 said:
'prosopis said:
For the higdon intermediate plan are your weekend long runs and runs during the week done at the same pace?

I am of course excluding the tempo,pace,and rest runs. I just dont know what pace he wants week day "run" at.

Grue&Tri- sounds like fun. I gotta admit I am rooting for the old man ;)
Click to expand...
All my runs are the same, balls-to-the-wall baby!LR - I shoot for a pace I think I can achieve. The last two 10 milers I shoot for 10:30ish pace which is what I would consider a good 1/2 marathon pace for me

Tempo & Interval - I have been trying to run at more of a 5k pace to get in some speed work which for me, is 9:00-9:30ish pace.

Recovery - somehow always turn into a something between 9:40 and 10:40 times simply because I'd have to go so damn slow it would be closer to a walk rather than a run. With week 8 these runs are starting to edge out of my comfort zone of 4-4.5 miles so I really need to start watching my pacing and actually doing what I'm supposed to.

One thing I have noticed is my pace has slowly been getting faster (very slowly) but like yesterday's 3 miler that was supposed to be a recover type run, my first mile was 9:18 and it felt good so I said #### it, it's only 3 and decided to try to hold that pace for the whole run, ended up averaging 9:21. Probably should have been more around 10:30-10:40 range for me.
Click to expand...
This is a habit you need to break. You should be doing almost no regular running at half-marathon pace, but that's WAY closer to "tempo" pace than it is to "long run" pace. I know it's counterintuitive, but over time you will gain more speed by doing your long runs slow than by doing them fast.
Click to expand...
beer and MAC need to get together. :doh:
 
So your long run is done at the same pace as a weekday run?

I am talking about the runs higdon labels as "3 m run" on tuesday of week one.

 
'prosopis said:
So your long run is done at the same pace as a weekday run?I am talking about the runs higdon labels as "3 m run" on tuesday of week one.
Click to expand...
Per his website:
Easy Runs: The runs on Tuesdays and Thursdays and sometimes Saturdays are designed to be done at a comfortable pace. Don't worry about how fast you run these workouts. Run easy! If you're training with a friend, the two of you should be able to hold a conversation. If you can't do that, you're running too fast. (For those wearing heart rate monitors, your target zone should be between 65 and 75 percent of your maximum pulse rate.)
Click to expand...
This equates to an aerobic zone 1-2, which would be similar to your long run pacing.
 
'IvanKaramazov said:
'beer 302 said:
'prosopis said:
For the higdon intermediate plan are your weekend long runs and runs during the week done at the same pace?

I am of course excluding the tempo,pace,and rest runs. I just dont know what pace he wants week day "run" at.

Grue&Tri- sounds like fun. I gotta admit I am rooting for the old man ;)
Click to expand...
All my runs are the same, balls-to-the-wall baby!LR - I shoot for a pace I think I can achieve. The last two 10 milers I shoot for 10:30ish pace which is what I would consider a good 1/2 marathon pace for me

Tempo & Interval - I have been trying to run at more of a 5k pace to get in some speed work which for me, is 9:00-9:30ish pace.

Recovery - somehow always turn into a something between 9:40 and 10:40 times simply because I'd have to go so damn slow it would be closer to a walk rather than a run. With week 8 these runs are starting to edge out of my comfort zone of 4-4.5 miles so I really need to start watching my pacing and actually doing what I'm supposed to.

One thing I have noticed is my pace has slowly been getting faster (very slowly) but like yesterday's 3 miler that was supposed to be a recover type run, my first mile was 9:18 and it felt good so I said #### it, it's only 3 and decided to try to hold that pace for the whole run, ended up averaging 9:21. Probably should have been more around 10:30-10:40 range for me.
Click to expand...
This is a habit you need to break. You should be doing almost no regular running at half-marathon pace, but that's WAY closer to "tempo" pace than it is to "long run" pace. I know it's counterintuitive, but over time you will gain more speed by doing your long runs slow than by doing them fast.
Click to expand...
:goodposting: I'm not even sure you need to do any speed work at all. You should be focusing on endurance. The speed work is going to leave you tired and injured. Worry about speed next year after you've established a good base.

 
'gruecd said:
'IvanKaramazov said:
'beer 302 said:
'prosopis said:
For the higdon intermediate plan are your weekend long runs and runs during the week done at the same pace?

I am of course excluding the tempo,pace,and rest runs. I just dont know what pace he wants week day "run" at.

Grue&Tri- sounds like fun. I gotta admit I am rooting for the old man ;)
Click to expand...
All my runs are the same, balls-to-the-wall baby!LR - I shoot for a pace I think I can achieve. The last two 10 milers I shoot for 10:30ish pace which is what I would consider a good 1/2 marathon pace for me

Tempo & Interval - I have been trying to run at more of a 5k pace to get in some speed work which for me, is 9:00-9:30ish pace.

Recovery - somehow always turn into a something between 9:40 and 10:40 times simply because I'd have to go so damn slow it would be closer to a walk rather than a run. With week 8 these runs are starting to edge out of my comfort zone of 4-4.5 miles so I really need to start watching my pacing and actually doing what I'm supposed to.

One thing I have noticed is my pace has slowly been getting faster (very slowly) but like yesterday's 3 miler that was supposed to be a recover type run, my first mile was 9:18 and it felt good so I said #### it, it's only 3 and decided to try to hold that pace for the whole run, ended up averaging 9:21. Probably should have been more around 10:30-10:40 range for me.
Click to expand...
This is a habit you need to break. You should be doing almost no regular running at half-marathon pace, but that's WAY closer to "tempo" pace than it is to "long run" pace. I know it's counterintuitive, but over time you will gain more speed by doing your long runs slow than by doing them fast.
Click to expand...
beer and MAC need to get together. :doh:
Click to expand...
Oh I am the anti-MAC for sure.Ivan - I hear ya but man that's tough. I run and I get this number in my head and begin to think "my god that's slow" so I tend to pick it up some and then I get a number in my head that I can hit (say 10:30) and end up trying to run around that. I have a LR scheduled tomorrow, I'll take it slow and see how it goes, I really want to get some mileage and not feel like I've been hit by a truck afterwards and I think it directly relates back to what you are saying.

'prosopis said:
So your long run is done at the same pace as a weekday run?

I am talking about the runs higdon labels as "3 m run" on tuesday of week one.
Click to expand...
Because it's 3 and it's the first run of the week I'd probably run it at 5k pace because I'm stupid. My LR pace is a minute or slower and needs to be even more than that per the conversation above. I'm the "don't do what he does" guy here. It should just be an easy run but lately I've gotten out of that mold and turned it into something closer to race pace. There is a method I've used in the past that keeps me at the right pace, I've gotten away from it and need to start using it again.
 
'Juxtatarot said:
'IvanKaramazov said:
'beer 302 said:
'prosopis said:
For the higdon intermediate plan are your weekend long runs and runs during the week done at the same pace?

I am of course excluding the tempo,pace,and rest runs. I just dont know what pace he wants week day "run" at.

Grue&Tri- sounds like fun. I gotta admit I am rooting for the old man ;)
Click to expand...
All my runs are the same, balls-to-the-wall baby!LR - I shoot for a pace I think I can achieve. The last two 10 milers I shoot for 10:30ish pace which is what I would consider a good 1/2 marathon pace for me

Tempo & Interval - I have been trying to run at more of a 5k pace to get in some speed work which for me, is 9:00-9:30ish pace.

Recovery - somehow always turn into a something between 9:40 and 10:40 times simply because I'd have to go so damn slow it would be closer to a walk rather than a run. With week 8 these runs are starting to edge out of my comfort zone of 4-4.5 miles so I really need to start watching my pacing and actually doing what I'm supposed to.

One thing I have noticed is my pace has slowly been getting faster (very slowly) but like yesterday's 3 miler that was supposed to be a recover type run, my first mile was 9:18 and it felt good so I said #### it, it's only 3 and decided to try to hold that pace for the whole run, ended up averaging 9:21. Probably should have been more around 10:30-10:40 range for me.
Click to expand...
This is a habit you need to break. You should be doing almost no regular running at half-marathon pace, but that's WAY closer to "tempo" pace than it is to "long run" pace. I know it's counterintuitive, but over time you will gain more speed by doing your long runs slow than by doing them fast.
Click to expand...
:goodposting: I'm not even sure you need to do any speed work at all. You should be focusing on endurance. The speed work is going to leave you tired and injured. Worry about speed next year after you've established a good base.
Click to expand...
I'm a big advocate of zero speed work for new runners. It's got little upside with a lot of downside. The speed won't go anywhere. Endurance is the building block.
 
'Ned said:
'Juxtatarot said:
'IvanKaramazov said:
'beer 302 said:
'prosopis said:
For the higdon intermediate plan are your weekend long runs and runs during the week done at the same pace?

I am of course excluding the tempo,pace,and rest runs. I just dont know what pace he wants week day "run" at.

Grue&Tri- sounds like fun. I gotta admit I am rooting for the old man ;)
Click to expand...
All my runs are the same, balls-to-the-wall baby!LR - I shoot for a pace I think I can achieve. The last two 10 milers I shoot for 10:30ish pace which is what I would consider a good 1/2 marathon pace for me

Tempo & Interval - I have been trying to run at more of a 5k pace to get in some speed work which for me, is 9:00-9:30ish pace.

Recovery - somehow always turn into a something between 9:40 and 10:40 times simply because I'd have to go so damn slow it would be closer to a walk rather than a run. With week 8 these runs are starting to edge out of my comfort zone of 4-4.5 miles so I really need to start watching my pacing and actually doing what I'm supposed to.

One thing I have noticed is my pace has slowly been getting faster (very slowly) but like yesterday's 3 miler that was supposed to be a recover type run, my first mile was 9:18 and it felt good so I said #### it, it's only 3 and decided to try to hold that pace for the whole run, ended up averaging 9:21. Probably should have been more around 10:30-10:40 range for me.
Click to expand...
This is a habit you need to break. You should be doing almost no regular running at half-marathon pace, but that's WAY closer to "tempo" pace than it is to "long run" pace. I know it's counterintuitive, but over time you will gain more speed by doing your long runs slow than by doing them fast.
Click to expand...
:goodposting: I'm not even sure you need to do any speed work at all. You should be focusing on endurance. The speed work is going to leave you tired and injured. Worry about speed next year after you've established a good base.
Click to expand...
I'm a big advocate of zero speed work for new runners. It's got little upside with a lot of downside. The speed won't go anywhere. Endurance is the building block.
Click to expand...
:goodposting: "Speedwork is the cherry on top, but you don't have a sundae." (I read that line on another forum someplace, but I can't find it).

 
'IvanKaramazov said:
'Ned said:
'Juxtatarot said:
'IvanKaramazov said:
'beer 302 said:
'prosopis said:
For the higdon intermediate plan are your weekend long runs and runs during the week done at the same pace?

I am of course excluding the tempo,pace,and rest runs. I just dont know what pace he wants week day "run" at.

Grue&Tri- sounds like fun. I gotta admit I am rooting for the old man ;)
Click to expand...
All my runs are the same, balls-to-the-wall baby!LR - I shoot for a pace I think I can achieve. The last two 10 milers I shoot for 10:30ish pace which is what I would consider a good 1/2 marathon pace for me

Tempo & Interval - I have been trying to run at more of a 5k pace to get in some speed work which for me, is 9:00-9:30ish pace.

Recovery - somehow always turn into a something between 9:40 and 10:40 times simply because I'd have to go so damn slow it would be closer to a walk rather than a run. With week 8 these runs are starting to edge out of my comfort zone of 4-4.5 miles so I really need to start watching my pacing and actually doing what I'm supposed to.

One thing I have noticed is my pace has slowly been getting faster (very slowly) but like yesterday's 3 miler that was supposed to be a recover type run, my first mile was 9:18 and it felt good so I said #### it, it's only 3 and decided to try to hold that pace for the whole run, ended up averaging 9:21. Probably should have been more around 10:30-10:40 range for me.
Click to expand...
This is a habit you need to break. You should be doing almost no regular running at half-marathon pace, but that's WAY closer to "tempo" pace than it is to "long run" pace. I know it's counterintuitive, but over time you will gain more speed by doing your long runs slow than by doing them fast.
Click to expand...
:goodposting: I'm not even sure you need to do any speed work at all. You should be focusing on endurance. The speed work is going to leave you tired and injured. Worry about speed next year after you've established a good base.
Click to expand...
I'm a big advocate of zero speed work for new runners. It's got little upside with a lot of downside. The speed won't go anywhere. Endurance is the building block.
Click to expand...
:goodposting: "Speedwork is the cherry on top, but you don't have a sundae." (I read that line on another forum someplace, but I can't find it).
Click to expand...
Nice, I'm gonna borrow that. And thanks guys :thumbup: I hate intervals, much rather run distance Woo Hoo!!!
 
'IvanKaramazov said:
This is a habit you need to break. You should be doing almost no regular running at half-marathon pace, but that's WAY closer to "tempo" pace than it is to "long run" pace. I know it's counterintuitive, but over time you will gain more speed by doing your long runs slow than by doing them fast.
Click to expand...
Ok coach(s) just finished up the 11 miles scheduled for today. Suck factor remained a constant balmy 144 throughout which is typically what I run in so it wasn't too bad. In an effort to follow everyone's advice I turned the #####-in-the-box off this morning and just listened to music the whole way. I checked time, distance and pace a few time throughout but pretty much just settled into a comfortable pace and ran. Felt good the whole way, beautiful morning sunrise, got all my prayers done :thumbup: HR was pretty steady at 148 which is around 86% of max. Need to go back and see if that's too high or wher I need to be. Splits below:1-10:102-10:383-10:364-11:105-11:326-11:397-11:298-11:129-11:3210-11:2011-10:49Total time 2:01:45, 11:06 aver pace, new distance PR for a run and for the week (27.5). I'm going to bed :thumbup:
 
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