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[DYNASTY] 2013 Top 20 Rookies (1 Viewer)

Went back and watched both receiver groups go through the pass catching/route running drills again last night. Putting aside the workout numbers and just looking at the receiver drills, I thought Robert Woods and DeAndre Hopkins did well. They ran crisp routes and I don't remember either of them dropping a pass. They look like they can play the game, which jives with the scouting reports on both of them. Josh Boyce is the best athlete in this WR class. If that sounds stupid, remember that he ran a faster 40 than Patterson and only .04 seconds slower than Austin even though he's 30 pounds heavier. He also had a 10'11" broad jump, which is great for someone under 6' tall. From what I saw in drills, he isn't just a workout warrior. Noticeably thicker than most of the receivers in attendance, yet still ran smooth and explosive routes. The main negative I saw is that he dropped several passes. Got eaten up in the gauntlet drill and also dropped an over the shoulder deep ball that him right in the hands. This is roughly how I would rank the receivers in attendance strictly on route running (not taking hands/size/speed into account). Basically just trying to get a sense for how well they move and cut. J Boyce (drops)R WoodsA Sanders (drops)Q Patton (drops)D Hopkins T Austin =========J HunterM Goodwin (drops)C PattersonC HarperC HamiltonM WheatonM WilsonM DavisA Mellette===========D RogersR SmithD RobinsonR SwopeKing, Bailey, and Vernon did fine, but in my view lack the athletic gifts to be useful FF players. Others like Goard and Kaufman looked undraftable to me.

 
Went back and watched both receiver groups go through the pass catching/route running drills again last night. Putting aside the workout numbers and just looking at the receiver drills, I thought Robert Woods and DeAndre Hopkins did well. They ran crisp routes and I don't remember either of them dropping a pass. They look like they can play the game, which jives with the scouting reports on both of them. Josh Boyce is the best athlete in this WR class. If that sounds stupid, remember that he ran a faster 40 than Patterson and only .04 seconds slower than Austin even though he's 30 pounds heavier. He also had a 10'11" broad jump, which is great for someone under 6' tall. From what I saw in drills, he isn't just a workout warrior. Noticeably thicker than most of the receivers in attendance, yet still ran smooth and explosive routes. The main negative I saw is that he dropped several passes. Got eaten up in the gauntlet drill and also dropped an over the shoulder deep ball that him right in the hands. This is roughly how I would rank the receivers in attendance strictly on route running (not taking hands/size/speed into account). Basically just trying to get a sense for how well they move and cut. J Boyce (drops)R WoodsA Sanders (drops)Q Patton (drops)D Hopkins T Austin =========J HunterM Goodwin (drops)C PattersonC HarperC HamiltonM WheatonM WilsonM DavisA Mellette===========D RogersR SmithD RobinsonR SwopeKing, Bailey, and Vernon did fine, but in my view lack the athletic gifts to be useful FF players. Others like Goard and Kaufman looked undraftable to me.
Swope was the worst at running routes? Seems counter to what I have been reading about him.
 
Went back and watched both receiver groups go through the pass catching/route running drills again last night. Putting aside the workout numbers and just looking at the receiver drills, I thought Robert Woods and DeAndre Hopkins did well. They ran crisp routes and I don't remember either of them dropping a pass. They look like they can play the game, which jives with the scouting reports on both of them. Josh Boyce is the best athlete in this WR class. If that sounds stupid, remember that he ran a faster 40 than Patterson and only .04 seconds slower than Austin even though he's 30 pounds heavier. He also had a 10'11" broad jump, which is great for someone under 6' tall. From what I saw in drills, he isn't just a workout warrior. Noticeably thicker than most of the receivers in attendance, yet still ran smooth and explosive routes. The main negative I saw is that he dropped several passes. Got eaten up in the gauntlet drill and also dropped an over the shoulder deep ball that him right in the hands. This is roughly how I would rank the receivers in attendance strictly on route running (not taking hands/size/speed into account). Basically just trying to get a sense for how well they move and cut. J Boyce (drops)R WoodsA Sanders (drops)Q Patton (drops)D Hopkins T Austin =========J HunterM Goodwin (drops)C PattersonC HarperC HamiltonM WheatonM WilsonM DavisA Mellette===========D RogersR SmithD RobinsonR SwopeKing, Bailey, and Vernon did fine, but in my view lack the athletic gifts to be useful FF players. Others like Goard and Kaufman looked undraftable to me.
You feel Terrance Williams didn't even make the list?
 
Went back and watched both receiver groups go through the pass catching/route running drills again last night. Putting aside the workout numbers and just looking at the receiver drills, I thought Robert Woods and DeAndre Hopkins did well. They ran crisp routes and I don't remember either of them dropping a pass. They look like they can play the game, which jives with the scouting reports on both of them. Josh Boyce is the best athlete in this WR class. If that sounds stupid, remember that he ran a faster 40 than Patterson and only .04 seconds slower than Austin even though he's 30 pounds heavier. He also had a 10'11" broad jump, which is great for someone under 6' tall. From what I saw in drills, he isn't just a workout warrior. Noticeably thicker than most of the receivers in attendance, yet still ran smooth and explosive routes. The main negative I saw is that he dropped several passes. Got eaten up in the gauntlet drill and also dropped an over the shoulder deep ball that him right in the hands. This is roughly how I would rank the receivers in attendance strictly on route running (not taking hands/size/speed into account). Basically just trying to get a sense for how well they move and cut. J Boyce (drops)R WoodsA Sanders (drops)Q Patton (drops)D Hopkins T Austin =========J HunterM Goodwin (drops)C PattersonC HarperC HamiltonM WheatonM WilsonM DavisA Mellette===========D RogersR SmithD RobinsonR SwopeKing, Bailey, and Vernon did fine, but in my view lack the athletic gifts to be useful FF players. Others like Goard and Kaufman looked undraftable to me.
You feel Terrance Williams didn't even make the list?
Not a fan of him. He's got more upside than guys like King and Bailey, but I don't think he moves well.
 
If he was the worst he wouldn't be on the list. I don't think he looked that great though.
He is the last guy you considered worth listing. To me that means the worst of the listable group no? Been reading other people saying the same thing however that he did not look good in the route drills.Based on reports from the college season however he runs great routes and gains separation because of this. Of course these are some of the same writers saying that Swopes was slow. So what do they know?Some pretty funny stuff around the webs on Swopes right now actually casting a bright light on the built in bias in journalism and society.Swopes agent is pushing some stories about Swopes possibly being a 2nd round pick.
 
Well there's a difference between running routes against air and running routes against a defender. Also, having special athletic qualities can help compensate for a lack of fluidity and route precision. I didn't think Rogers looked great as a route runner either, but he was still a productive receiver in the SEC. The fact that he's big, fast, and an explosive athlete gives him some cushion to run bad routes (at least in college). That might be part of what's going on with Swope. The fact that he has elite straight line speed might be covering up some of his shortcomings in terms of movement and route running. In my view there's two different things at work when you talk about how well a receiver can run routes and separate. One of them is what I would call fluidity or precision. It's just a way of saying that the player has smooth change of direction and movement skills. The other major ingredient is explosiveness. Basically how much fast twitch burst a player can generate with his plants and cuts. The best receivers have both qualities. Part of what makes a player like Demaryius Thomas, Percy Harvin, or Dez Bryant special is that he moves with total efficiency and precision, but also has special burst and explosiveness. That type of player is very rare though. A lot of these prospects only have bits and pieces of the puzzle. Woods, Hopkins, and Patton are fluid, but they don't have the same explosive fast twitch ability as guys like Bryant and Harvin. Rogers and Patterson are explosive athletes, but they don't move and cut as well as the others. At least not yet. I named Boyce as the best athlete of this WR group because he was the one guy who had both qualities.

 
Went back and watched both receiver groups go through the pass catching/route running drills again last night. Putting aside the workout numbers and just looking at the receiver drills, I thought Robert Woods and DeAndre Hopkins did well. They ran crisp routes and I don't remember either of them dropping a pass. They look like they can play the game, which jives with the scouting reports on both of them. Josh Boyce is the best athlete in this WR class. If that sounds stupid, remember that he ran a faster 40 than Patterson and only .04 seconds slower than Austin even though he's 30 pounds heavier. He also had a 10'11" broad jump, which is great for someone under 6' tall. From what I saw in drills, he isn't just a workout warrior. Noticeably thicker than most of the receivers in attendance, yet still ran smooth and explosive routes. The main negative I saw is that he dropped several passes. Got eaten up in the gauntlet drill and also dropped an over the shoulder deep ball that him right in the hands. This is roughly how I would rank the receivers in attendance strictly on route running (not taking hands/size/speed into account). Basically just trying to get a sense for how well they move and cut. J Boyce (drops)R WoodsA Sanders (drops)Q Patton (drops)D Hopkins T Austin =========J HunterM Goodwin (drops)C PattersonC HarperC HamiltonM WheatonM WilsonM DavisA Mellette===========D RogersR SmithD RobinsonR SwopeKing, Bailey, and Vernon did fine, but in my view lack the athletic gifts to be useful FF players. Others like Goard and Kaufman looked undraftable to me.
I am wondering what you and others think about Kenny Stills. He seems like the forgotten man in this draft class. I can't seem to find a complete scouting report on him.
 
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Went back and watched both receiver groups go through the pass catching/route running drills again last night. Putting aside the workout numbers and just looking at the receiver drills, I thought Robert Woods and DeAndre Hopkins did well. They ran crisp routes and I don't remember either of them dropping a pass. They look like they can play the game, which jives with the scouting reports on both of them. Josh Boyce is the best athlete in this WR class. If that sounds stupid, remember that he ran a faster 40 than Patterson and only .04 seconds slower than Austin even though he's 30 pounds heavier. He also had a 10'11" broad jump, which is great for someone under 6' tall. From what I saw in drills, he isn't just a workout warrior. Noticeably thicker than most of the receivers in attendance, yet still ran smooth and explosive routes. The main negative I saw is that he dropped several passes. Got eaten up in the gauntlet drill and also dropped an over the shoulder deep ball that him right in the hands. This is roughly how I would rank the receivers in attendance strictly on route running (not taking hands/size/speed into account). Basically just trying to get a sense for how well they move and cut. J Boyce (drops)R WoodsA Sanders (drops)Q Patton (drops)D Hopkins T Austin =========J HunterM Goodwin (drops)C PattersonC HarperC HamiltonM WheatonM WilsonM DavisA Mellette===========D RogersR SmithD RobinsonR SwopeKing, Bailey, and Vernon did fine, but in my view lack the athletic gifts to be useful FF players. Others like Goard and Kaufman looked undraftable to me.
I am wondering what you and others think about Kenny Stills. He seems like the forgotten man in this draft class. I can't seem to find a complete scouting report on him.
I'm not all that excited about him. He's got good speed and does everything well enough to make a team and maybe even become a relevant player. I just don't see a lot of special qualities. He looks and plays smaller than his listed height/weight. And while it's not really a big deal, his appearance and demeanor make me wonder if he's got the right attitude and level of professionalism to get the most out of his skill set. He's no more than a 3rd-4th round rookie pick for me in most leagues.
 
I'll probably do a full update sometime before the draft, but for now here's a quick update after the combine.

In general, I'm really not excited about the top of this class. I've been saying that for a while and it's still true. I feel like the 1.03-1.10 range is a real minefield. There is virtually nobody there that I really like. So pick your poison and cross your fingers. Or better yet, trade down or up.

This is an interesting WR class because so many of the guys fall into one of the two categories:

A. Great football players with suspect physical tools.

B. Great athletes with suspect football ability.

In general, I favored the latter over the former because I value upside pretty highly.

1. RB Eddie Lacy - Not amazing, but good in every facet of the game. Put him in a starting role and he should be a top 10-15 FF back.

2. WR Cordarrelle Patterson - Have to rank him high because of difference-maker potential. Electric with the ball. Route running and separation? Boom-or-bust.

3. WR Keenan Allen - Looks like a solid prospect when you watch him. Lack of great strength or speed is a concern. Atypical game makes him a bit of a risk.

4. TE Tyler Eifert - The #2 pick in 1.5 PPR for TE leagues. One of the only safe bets in this draft. No real risk that I can see. Solid upside.

5. WR Da'Rick Rogers - Gifted athlete who always gets results. Big and strong. Explosive numbers in his combine workouts. Needs to refine his game. Especially route running. Not a sudden or effective route runner.

6. WR Justin Hunter - Atypical build and style. Sidney Rice type. Very tall and thin. Explosive vertically. Not very agile or elusive. Routes are also a question mark.

7. RB Gio Bernard - Monster production. Good vision, instincts, and receiving skills. Average athlete. Does not pop when I watch his clips. May lack starter tools.

8. WR Marcus Davis - Boom-or-bust project with the upside to become the best WR/RB from this class. Huge frame. Better hands than advertised. Impossible to jam. Needs to refine his technique and improve his suddenness out of his routes. If he can do that, the sky is the limit.

9. WR Robert Woods - Safe #2 receiver with minimal upside. Average athlete on paper. Instinctive and natural player on the field. Runs good routes and catches the ball well. Should be useful for FF purposes, but does not obviously have the potential to be more than a WR2-WR3.

10. WR DeAndre Hopkins - Tall with good hands and ball skills. Precise route runner, but does not possess a great deal of speed or explosiveness. A bit of a possession/finesse tweener. I think he lacks the sheer physical ability to be a #1 target.

11. WR Markus Wheaton - Quick twitch athlete with above average speed. Playmaker. Lacks height and bulk. May struggle with the physicality of the NFL. I like him, but I think he is strictly a complementary WR. Does not have the right set of physical tools to be a 130+ target per season guy.

12. RB Christine Michael - Great combination of bulk/speed/explosiveness. Elite physical tools guarantee that he won't be out of his depth in the NFL. Never produced on par with his talent though. Never had a 1000+ yard season in college. Not particularly elusive beyond the line of scrimmage. Not great in space. Struggles to avoid hits and (probably as a result) has had some durability issues. He will be serviceable, but I don't expect top 15 numbers at any point.

13. WR Quinton Patton - Good at everything. Great at nothing. Solid frame. Speed is only average. Quick in and out of his routes, but doesn't have the sheer explosiveness or speed to frighten NFL defenders. Elusive after the catch. Figures to be a good #2 target. I don't see the upside to become a strong #1.

14. WR Josh Boyce - The best athlete in this year's WR class. Very fast for his size and flashed special vertical skills at the combine with his 4.38 speed and 10'11" broad jump. However, he's only rated as a 4th-5th round talent by most evaluators. Shorter than ideal. Was always good in college, but never dominant. Looks okay on film. Not amazing. Injury questions. Bit of a slot/outside tweener. Has the potential to emerge as a big surprise down the road and could end up being something like Pierre Garcon, but there are enough minor red flags to just keep him out of the first two tiers.

15. RB Knile Davis - Awesome combination of weight and straight line speed. Great production in 2010 before falling off the map due to injuries and lack of playing time. Does not run with as much power as his listed dimensions would lead you to believe. The biggest problem is that he is not elusive in tight spaces and struggles to string moves together and make people miss. He is a like a more compact Darren McFadden. Fantastic in a straight line when working with big lanes. Incapable of eluding or creating on his own.

16. RB Marcus Lattimore - I wasn't sky high on him even before his injuries. Runs with a lot of bounce and has the weight you look for in a featured back. Productive college standout in a tough conference. Thin lower body though and IMO will always struggle to stay healthy, even if he manages to recover fully from his catastrophic injury. Likely to be overdrafted in FF on the basis of name recognition. If I took him, it would be with an eye towards shifting him for a profit the minute he gets healthy and shows any promise in the NFL.

17. QB Geno Smith - Good stats in college. How much of that was the system? Has the physical tools to play in the NFL. The main question is about his ability to do the little things. Can he look off defenders and move through his progressions? Can he thrive under center? Can he thrive under pressure? The consensus seems to be that Smith is worth a first round investment, but that he's not a slam dunk lock to succeed.

18. WR Chris Harper - Big frame. Not explosive, but moves reasonably well before and after the catch. Reliable hands catcher. Size and strength will make him a difficult cover for most cornerbacks. Solid prospect. Lack of dynamic qualities means he is probably destined for a supporting role.

19. WR Marquess Wilson - A poor-man's AJ Green. Tall with great natural hands and jump ball skills. Monster production. Deceptively good route runner. Lacks any semblance of strength and bulk. May get pushed around at the next level. Character issues. Has the upside to surprise though. Good 2nd round rookie pick.

20. WR Tavon Austin - My pick for most overrated FF prospect in the draft. People will see him as a Welker/Harvin proposition for FF and that might be possible, but in my view he's too small to handle a huge volume of targets and will be best used as a complementary weapon. I think he'll be like a better Andrew Hawkins. Someone who can make things happen with the ball in his hands, but not a guy who will get enough targets to be a reliable FF weapon. More valuable in the NFL than in FF. Will be overdrafted in FF on the basis of where a team takes him in April.

21. RB Spencer Ware - Poor college production. Low YPC. Not explosive and relies too much on his power when confronted by defenders, barreling into them when he should seek to avoid. Might lack the elusiveness to be a good pro. Great frame though and has the look of a sleeper talent to me. If nothing else, should find a niche role. Can catch the ball, pass protect, and run in short yardage very well. Rare receiving ability for a big back.

22. WR Ryan Swope - Looked a bit awkward in positional drills, but has a lot of things going for him. Good college production. Very explosive workout numbers. Not as natural or fluid as some of the other receivers in this draft, but possesses special qualities that help him compensate. He reminds me a little bit of Jordy Nelson and could make a good #2 for a team that likes to throw downfield.

23. RB Montee Ball - Just okay at everything. He has a decent frame with okay speed, quickness, and power. Will that be enough in the NFL? Ball really lacks dynamic qualities and will only be as good as the team around him. I view him more as a backup than a lock starter. On the right team, he can be a capable stopgap guy.

24. TE Zach Ertz - 20 spots below Eifert might be a bit harsh. He doesn't look as good to me though and the combine exposed his lack of standout tools. He is slightly built with just okay speed and burst. His best assets are his tall frame and natural hands. I don't personally see special potential and FF TEs aren't worth much unless they're in that super elite class, so for me he's not really worth a shot higher than this in most formats.

OTHERS:

QB Matt Barkley - I would definitely consider taking a chance on him in the late 2nd-early 3rd of a typical league if he were available.

RB Andre Ellington - Good talent. Too small to be a featured guy and doesn't have the Spiller/Charles type of speed to compensate.

RB LeVeon Bell - Interesting prospect with a unique package of skills. Could have some success on the right team. Soft body who lacks innate explosiveness.

RB Stepfan Taylor - Totally bombed the combine. Put up the numbers of a high school kid. Shocking performance raises big questions about his NFL potential.

RB Zac Stacy - A reasonable late round gamble. Not a superstar, but could be capable.

RB Kenjon Barner - Strictly a committee guy/role player.

RB Jonathan Franklin - Okay prospect. Lacks standout traits.

RB Michael Ford - Awesome combine numbers. At LSU I always thought he was too much of a straight-line runner.

WR Terrance Williams - Never been a big fan. Timed speed was a minor disappointment. Not as fluid in his routes as guys like Woods and Patton.

WR Cobi Hamilton - Looked like a decent mid-late round gamble in the positional drills.

WR Marquise Goodwin - Awesome speed. Below average innate football talent. Strictly a field stretcher for now.

WR Ace Sanders - Fun to watch. Lightning quick. Short frame and suspect receiving skills. Likely just a low volume slot guy/return man in the NFL.

WR Aaron Mellette - A draftable third day prospect with reasonable talent and upside. Nothing amazing.

WR Aaron Dobson - A tall and lanky Justin Hunter type. Did not work out at the combine. Figures to be a 3rd-4th round pick.

TE Gavin Escobar - Scouts seem to really like his vertical ability, catch radius, and natural hands. Billed to become a quality pro player.

 
I'll probably do a full update sometime before the draft, but for now here's a quick update after the combine.
:goodposting: I like the rankings. I own the 1.01 in a 2PPR(TE) league and am really considering Eifert right now, despite my thoughts on Lacy, so I agree, that he is worth a top 3 pick in 1.5+PPR leagues.
 
Another forum I'm a part of recently did a rookie mock, pre-combine and post-combine. There is some serious value falling deep into the 2nd round and some really undervalued guys. Somehow Da'Rick Rogers fell to the 2.09. Considering I'm in one league that drafts before the NFL draft, I'm salivating over how far he could potentially fall due to owners pre-draft character concerns. I imagine once people do more homework, read Waldman's RSP, and see actual landing spots value like that will be hard to come by in rookie drafts. There are still an astonishing number of owners who haven't really done their homework, and it's March. Makes me wish I was in more than one league that drafted pre-NFL draft.

 
Another forum I'm a part of recently did a rookie mock, pre-combine and post-combine. There is some serious value falling deep into the 2nd round and some really undervalued guys. Somehow Da'Rick Rogers fell to the 2.09. Considering I'm in one league that drafts before the NFL draft, I'm salivating over how far he could potentially fall due to owners pre-draft character concerns. I imagine once people do more homework, read Waldman's RSP, and see actual landing spots value like that will be hard to come by in rookie drafts. There are still an astonishing number of owners who haven't really done their homework, and it's March. Makes me wish I was in more than one league that drafted pre-NFL draft.
Like I said, the best value spots this year might be picks 10-18. Mainly because of the WR depth. Don't really see a huge, huge gap between the first 8-10 WRs. It's conceivable that some of the later picks like Harper, Davis, Boyce, and Wilson might end up being better than the household names like Woods, Allen, and Hunter. This is a year where I strongly suspect we'll look back and see that the best player from the draft was someone unexpected. Not to say that Lacy/Allen/Patterson aren't good players, but prospects of that caliber enter the league every year. I've got the 1.02 in one of my leagues and I'm not at all excited about using it. Big contrast from last year, when there were 4 or 5 guys I would've been thrilled to take there.
 
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Still working through some details, but as of now...

Barkley, Bray, Manuel, Smith?

Lacy, Michael, Bernard, Stacy, Ware?

Hopkins, Patton, Rodgers, Austin, King, Bailey (Patterson not evaluated)

Eifert, Escobar, Ertz

 
Still working through some details, but as of now...Barkley, Bray, Manuel, Smith?Lacy, Michael, Bernard, Stacy, Ware?Hopkins, Patton, Rodgers, Austin, King, Bailey (Patterson not evaluated)Eifert, Escobar, Ertz
Looks like some major changes to your RB rankings from early January, with Michael & Stacy rising and Lattimore, Davis, and Marshall falling. I'm curious about what your model sees in Ware, since the only thing I've liked about him (other than his size) is what I saw on video; his numbers are unimpressive every way I've cut them. That's also true of Alfred Morris and Stevan Ridley, so there may be a type of RB that I'm just missing.
 
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Still working through some details, but as of now...

Barkley, Bray, Manuel, Smith?

Lacy, Michael, Bernard, Stacy, Ware?

Hopkins, Patton, Rodgers, Austin, King, Bailey (Patterson not evaluated)

Eifert, Escobar, Ertz
Allen?
He is a possibility.Some people like Travis Kelce who is a good blocker and receiving option.

For FF it can be a good thing if the TE is used mostly as a receiver. But being a good blocker gives the player more snaps and therefore opportunity as well. This guy is a bit under the radar atm because of an abdominal tear on Feb 22 that meant he couldn't participate in senior bowl or combine. Still need to see his pro day but this is a TE who might be in the same conversation as the 3 E's.

EBF - I just wanted to say nice write up. I see how things are galvanizing for you now after some objective evaluation, and putting those factors together into a combined ranking. Thanks for sharing that and part of the process.

I just wanted to add that this draft class is shaping up to be one where people who really do their homework may be able to find great value with later rookie picks in this draft. The depth is excellent for a team that has roster space to take on a lot of rookies. I would be trying to buy 2nd round picks if people are still not too excited about the lack of big names at the top.

I think this draft class has more quality linemen on both sides of the ball than average with the skill players not being quite at the same level as prospects as those top players. The depth of the receiver class likely has many teams saying to themselves that they can wait until round 2 or later to address the position because of that depth and instead take players from other positions that are not quite as deep in the 1st round. This will make judging the skill players pedigree a bit tricky as some of these players might have been higher picks in other draft classes not as deep at the other positions. I am taking the view that a WR drafted in this class might have gone a few slots higher in a average draft class.

2 players that are not on your list that I think maybe should be are QB Tyler Bray and WR Stedman Bailey.

 
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I'll probably do a full update sometime before the draft, but for now here's a quick update after the combine. In general, I'm really not excited about the top of this class. I've been saying that for a while and it's still true. I feel like the 1.03-1.10 range is a real minefield. There is virtually nobody there that I really like. So pick your poison and cross your fingers. Or better yet, trade down or up. This is an interesting WR class because so many of the guys fall into one of the two categories:A. Great football players with suspect physical tools.B. Great athletes with suspect football ability.In general, I favored the latter over the former because I value upside pretty highly. 1. RB Eddie Lacy - Not amazing, but good in every facet of the game. Put him in a starting role and he should be a top 10-15 FF back. 2. WR Cordarrelle Patterson - Have to rank him high because of difference-maker potential. Electric with the ball. Route running and separation? Boom-or-bust.3. WR Keenan Allen - Looks like a solid prospect when you watch him. Lack of great strength or speed is a concern. Atypical game makes him a bit of a risk. 4. TE Tyler Eifert - The #2 pick in 1.5 PPR for TE leagues. One of the only safe bets in this draft. No real risk that I can see. Solid upside.5. WR Da'Rick Rogers - Gifted athlete who always gets results. Big and strong. Explosive numbers in his combine workouts. Needs to refine his game. Especially route running. Not a sudden or effective route runner.6. WR Justin Hunter - Atypical build and style. Sidney Rice type. Very tall and thin. Explosive vertically. Not very agile or elusive. Routes are also a question mark. 7. RB Gio Bernard - Monster production. Good vision, instincts, and receiving skills. Average athlete. Does not pop when I watch his clips. May lack starter tools.8. WR Marcus Davis - Boom-or-bust project with the upside to become the best WR/RB from this class. Huge frame. Better hands than advertised. Impossible to jam. Needs to refine his technique and improve his suddenness out of his routes. If he can do that, the sky is the limit. 9. WR Robert Woods - Safe #2 receiver with minimal upside. Average athlete on paper. Instinctive and natural player on the field. Runs good routes and catches the ball well. Should be useful for FF purposes, but does not obviously have the potential to be more than a WR2-WR3. 10. WR DeAndre Hopkins - Tall with good hands and ball skills. Precise route runner, but does not possess a great deal of speed or explosiveness. A bit of a possession/finesse tweener. I think he lacks the sheer physical ability to be a #1 target.11. WR Markus Wheaton - Quick twitch athlete with above average speed. Playmaker. Lacks height and bulk. May struggle with the physicality of the NFL. I like him, but I think he is strictly a complementary WR. Does not have the right set of physical tools to be a 130+ target per season guy. 12. RB Christine Michael - Great combination of bulk/speed/explosiveness. Elite physical tools guarantee that he won't be out of his depth in the NFL. Never produced on par with his talent though. Never had a 1000+ yard season in college. Not particularly elusive beyond the line of scrimmage. Not great in space. Struggles to avoid hits and (probably as a result) has had some durability issues. He will be serviceable, but I don't expect top 15 numbers at any point. 13. WR Quinton Patton - Good at everything. Great at nothing. Solid frame. Speed is only average. Quick in and out of his routes, but doesn't have the sheer explosiveness or speed to frighten NFL defenders. Elusive after the catch. Figures to be a good #2 target. I don't see the upside to become a strong #1. 14. WR Josh Boyce - The best athlete in this year's WR class. Very fast for his size and flashed special vertical skills at the combine with his 4.38 speed and 10'11" broad jump. However, he's only rated as a 4th-5th round talent by most evaluators. Shorter than ideal. Was always good in college, but never dominant. Looks okay on film. Not amazing. Injury questions. Bit of a slot/outside tweener. Has the potential to emerge as a big surprise down the road and could end up being something like Pierre Garcon, but there are enough minor red flags to just keep him out of the first two tiers. 15. RB Knile Davis - Awesome combination of weight and straight line speed. Great production in 2010 before falling off the map due to injuries and lack of playing time. Does not run with as much power as his listed dimensions would lead you to believe. The biggest problem is that he is not elusive in tight spaces and struggles to string moves together and make people miss. He is a like a more compact Darren McFadden. Fantastic in a straight line when working with big lanes. Incapable of eluding or creating on his own. 16. RB Marcus Lattimore - I wasn't sky high on him even before his injuries. Runs with a lot of bounce and has the weight you look for in a featured back. Productive college standout in a tough conference. Thin lower body though and IMO will always struggle to stay healthy, even if he manages to recover fully from his catastrophic injury. Likely to be overdrafted in FF on the basis of name recognition. If I took him, it would be with an eye towards shifting him for a profit the minute he gets healthy and shows any promise in the NFL. 17. QB Geno Smith - Good stats in college. How much of that was the system? Has the physical tools to play in the NFL. The main question is about his ability to do the little things. Can he look off defenders and move through his progressions? Can he thrive under center? Can he thrive under pressure? The consensus seems to be that Smith is worth a first round investment, but that he's not a slam dunk lock to succeed.18. WR Chris Harper - Big frame. Not explosive, but moves reasonably well before and after the catch. Reliable hands catcher. Size and strength will make him a difficult cover for most cornerbacks. Solid prospect. Lack of dynamic qualities means he is probably destined for a supporting role. 19. WR Marquess Wilson - A poor-man's AJ Green. Tall with great natural hands and jump ball skills. Monster production. Deceptively good route runner. Lacks any semblance of strength and bulk. May get pushed around at the next level. Character issues. Has the upside to surprise though. Good 2nd round rookie pick.20. WR Tavon Austin - My pick for most overrated FF prospect in the draft. People will see him as a Welker/Harvin proposition for FF and that might be possible, but in my view he's too small to handle a huge volume of targets and will be best used as a complementary weapon. I think he'll be like a better Andrew Hawkins. Someone who can make things happen with the ball in his hands, but not a guy who will get enough targets to be a reliable FF weapon. More valuable in the NFL than in FF. Will be overdrafted in FF on the basis of where a team takes him in April. 21. RB Spencer Ware - Poor college production. Low YPC. Not explosive and relies too much on his power when confronted by defenders, barreling into them when he should seek to avoid. Might lack the elusiveness to be a good pro. Great frame though and has the look of a sleeper talent to me. If nothing else, should find a niche role. Can catch the ball, pass protect, and run in short yardage very well. Rare receiving ability for a big back. 22. WR Ryan Swope - Looked a bit awkward in positional drills, but has a lot of things going for him. Good college production. Very explosive workout numbers. Not as natural or fluid as some of the other receivers in this draft, but possesses special qualities that help him compensate. He reminds me a little bit of Jordy Nelson and could make a good #2 for a team that likes to throw downfield. 23. RB Montee Ball - Just okay at everything. He has a decent frame with okay speed, quickness, and power. Will that be enough in the NFL? Ball really lacks dynamic qualities and will only be as good as the team around him. I view him more as a backup than a lock starter. On the right team, he can be a capable stopgap guy. 24. TE Zach Ertz - 20 spots below Eifert might be a bit harsh. He doesn't look as good to me though and the combine exposed his lack of standout tools. He is slightly built with just okay speed and burst. His best assets are his tall frame and natural hands. I don't personally see special potential and FF TEs aren't worth much unless they're in that super elite class, so for me he's not really worth a shot higher than this in most formats. OTHERS:QB Matt Barkley - I would definitely consider taking a chance on him in the late 2nd-early 3rd of a typical league if he were available.RB Andre Ellington - Good talent. Too small to be a featured guy and doesn't have the Spiller/Charles type of speed to compensate.RB LeVeon Bell - Interesting prospect with a unique package of skills. Could have some success on the right team. Soft body who lacks innate explosiveness.RB Stepfan Taylor - Totally bombed the combine. Put up the numbers of a high school kid. Shocking performance raises big questions about his NFL potential.RB Zac Stacy - A reasonable late round gamble. Not a superstar, but could be capable.RB Kenjon Barner - Strictly a committee guy/role player.RB Jonathan Franklin - Okay prospect. Lacks standout traits.RB Michael Ford - Awesome combine numbers. At LSU I always thought he was too much of a straight-line runner. WR Terrance Williams - Never been a big fan. Timed speed was a minor disappointment. Not as fluid in his routes as guys like Woods and Patton.WR Cobi Hamilton - Looked like a decent mid-late round gamble in the positional drills. WR Marquise Goodwin - Awesome speed. Below average innate football talent. Strictly a field stretcher for now. WR Ace Sanders - Fun to watch. Lightning quick. Short frame and suspect receiving skills. Likely just a low volume slot guy/return man in the NFL. WR Aaron Mellette - A draftable third day prospect with reasonable talent and upside. Nothing amazing.WR Aaron Dobson - A tall and lanky Justin Hunter type. Did not work out at the combine. Figures to be a 3rd-4th round pick. TE Gavin Escobar - Scouts seem to really like his vertical ability, catch radius, and natural hands. Billed to become a quality pro player.
Great write-up, when I get the chance I will respond, think your wrong on,Bell,Franklin on the low side, too high on Ware. Dead nut's on Taylor, don't see him being able to make an NFL difference.
 
The more I see of him, the more I think Zac Stacy is exactly what people WANT Bernard to be.

Zac Stacy is ridiculously underrated. After Lacy, I can't find anyone I definitely prefer over him. Not Bernard, not Ball, not Bell, not Randle or anyone else. Not definitely. Dude is a stud. Sick change of direction skills, sharp cuts, enough long speed to get the job done. Seems to have top-notch vision, low center of gravity, production in a tough conference on a pretty average team without much of an OL. Really passes the eyeball test. Shoot, even his athleticism is a little underrated though. Top-5 in bench and 3-cone, not horrible in the broad or vert. Nice numbers for a rock-solid, squat 215 lb guy at 5'8". At least, nice numbers for a guy without the elite pedigree. He's a guy who will show up and turn heads in camp and steal a starting job if he lands in a good situation. Just needs to work on his pass pro, but what rookie RB doesn't, for the most part.

 
The more I see of him, the more I think Zac Stacy is exactly what people WANT Bernard to be.Zac Stacy is ridiculously underrated. After Lacy, I can't find anyone I definitely prefer over him. Not Bernard, not Ball, not Bell, not Randle or anyone else. Not definitely. Dude is a stud. Sick change of direction skills, sharp cuts, enough long speed to get the job done. Seems to have top-notch vision, low center of gravity, production in a tough conference on a pretty average team without much of an OL. Really passes the eyeball test. Shoot, even his athleticism is a little underrated though. Top-5 in bench and 3-cone, not horrible in the broad or vert. Nice numbers for a rock-solid, squat 215 lb guy at 5'8". At least, nice numbers for a guy without the elite pedigree. He's a guy who will show up and turn heads in camp and steal a starting job if he lands in a good situation. Just needs to work on his pass pro, but what rookie RB doesn't, for the most part.
I'm high on Stacy as well, but I wouldn't put him above Bernard.
 
The more I see of him, the more I think Zac Stacy is exactly what people WANT Bernard to be.Zac Stacy is ridiculously underrated. After Lacy, I can't find anyone I definitely prefer over him. Not Bernard, not Ball, not Bell, not Randle or anyone else. Not definitely. Dude is a stud. Sick change of direction skills, sharp cuts, enough long speed to get the job done. Seems to have top-notch vision, low center of gravity, production in a tough conference on a pretty average team without much of an OL. Really passes the eyeball test. Shoot, even his athleticism is a little underrated though. Top-5 in bench and 3-cone, not horrible in the broad or vert. Nice numbers for a rock-solid, squat 215 lb guy at 5'8". At least, nice numbers for a guy without the elite pedigree. He's a guy who will show up and turn heads in camp and steal a starting job if he lands in a good situation. Just needs to work on his pass pro, but what rookie RB doesn't, for the most part.
Shhh... :ph34r:
 
Still working through some details, but as of now...Barkley, Bray, Manuel, Smith?Lacy, Michael, Bernard, Stacy, Ware?Hopkins, Patton, Rodgers, Austin, King, Bailey (Patterson not evaluated)Eifert, Escobar, Ertz
Allen?
Allen's combination of measurables just doesn't seem to translate into a good NFL player. Even if he ran in the 4.4s I wouldn't like him -- and I'm pretty sure if he could do that he'd have run at the combine. I think he's basically Brandon LaFell lite.ETA: I think a player that's potentially slipping under people's radar is King. I'll be very interested to find out what the NFL actually thinks of him. He's in a pretty rare niche of players, so I'm not super confident, but if he gets drafted higher than expected I'll be excited.
 
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Allen was always going to be a tough guy to peg because he's so unconventional. He's tall and thin like a finesse receiver, but his playing style is more like a possession/YAC receiver. I think the LaFell comparison is a bit harsh though and doesn't really capture the essence of his game. In a best case scenario I think he'll end up being used kind of like a Crabtree/Boldin/Colston. He isn't as thick as those guys, but that's who his playing style and overall package of skills most closely resembles. Basically a big frame possession WR who has a knack for getting open on short routes and making things happen after the catch.

I don't see top 5 upside with him. He's not going to be a dominant athlete at the NFL level. Doesn't have great strength. Doesn't have great speed. He's a guy who looks pretty safe when you watch the game clips though. The team that drafts him will know what they're getting. He's not going to make a ton of big plays downfield. If you move him around and let him work out of the slot, he'll be effective.

 
As for T King, he's a solid player who lacks obvious standout traits. He tested pretty well at the combine. In the drills, he just looked like an average player. I see him being a complementary target in the NFL. Maybe a #2. Maybe even a #3 or #4. If he ever becomes a big time FF player it will be a major shock to me. I would say he's like a journeyman version of Reggie Wayne.

 
Allen was always going to be a tough guy to peg because he's so unconventional. He's tall and thin like a finesse receiver, but his playing style is more like a possession/YAC receiver. I think the LaFell comparison is a bit harsh though and doesn't really capture the essence of his game. In a best case scenario I think he'll end up being used kind of like a Crabtree/Boldin/Colston. He isn't as thick as those guys, but that's who his playing style and overall package of skills most closely resembles. Basically a big frame possession WR who has a knack for getting open on short routes and making things happen after the catch.

I don't see top 5 upside with him. He's not going to be a dominant athlete at the NFL level. Doesn't have great strength. Doesn't have great speed. He's a guy who looks pretty safe when you watch the game clips though. The team that drafts him will know what they're getting. He's not going to make a ton of big plays downfield. If you move him around and let him work out of the slot, he'll be effective.
I remember the last 'safe' guy I drafted and his name was Brian Robiskie.
 
Still working through some details, but as of now...Barkley, Bray, Manuel, Smith?Lacy, Michael, Bernard, Stacy, Ware?Hopkins, Patton, Rodgers, Austin, King, Bailey (Patterson not evaluated)Eifert, Escobar, Ertz
Have you or will you take a look at Jordan Reed? If so, let me know what you think.
 
Two sleeper RBs who have reasonable potential:

The guy who mostly kept Knile Davis on the bench last season. He's a fifth year senior who never had great yardage totals in any given season, but was consistently effective when called upon throughout his entire career. He averaged 5+ YPC every season. He's short, but very powerful for his height. I wouldn't describe him as an explosive runner, but the fact that he's effective on kick returns suggests that he's not without some speed/quickness. His playing style should translate pretty well to the NFL and he has a chance to be a good backup or maybe more.

 
Allen was always going to be a tough guy to peg because he's so unconventional. He's tall and thin like a finesse receiver, but his playing style is more like a possession/YAC receiver. I think the LaFell comparison is a bit harsh though and doesn't really capture the essence of his game. In a best case scenario I think he'll end up being used kind of like a Crabtree/Boldin/Colston. He isn't as thick as those guys, but that's who his playing style and overall package of skills most closely resembles. Basically a big frame possession WR who has a knack for getting open on short routes and making things happen after the catch.

I don't see top 5 upside with him. He's not going to be a dominant athlete at the NFL level. Doesn't have great strength. Doesn't have great speed. He's a guy who looks pretty safe when you watch the game clips though. The team that drafts him will know what they're getting. He's not going to make a ton of big plays downfield. If you move him around and let him work out of the slot, he'll be effective.
I remember the last 'safe' guy I drafted and his name was Brian Robiskie.
A guy that I called a bust all along.
22. Brian Robiskie, WR, Ohio State

Positives: Tall with excellent hands. Made a number of big catches for the Buckeyes over the past two seasons. Polished player who does the little things well and gets the most out of his physical ability. Comes from an NFL family. Really helped himself at the combine, performing better than expected in drills.

Negatives: Neither quick nor fast. Not a threat after the catch. Really just a catch-and-fall WR with very limited upside.

Overall: What you see is what you get with Robiskie. He’s a solid player and he has decent computer numbers on paper, but he’s a very middling talent who doesn’t have the obvious physical gifts needed to rise above mediocrity. I see him as a backup type or a WR2 at best in the NFL.

NFL Comparison: Michael Jenkins

Evidence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urUgs3FeiGc
Robiskie is more akin to someone like Tavarres King. A downfield finesse WR who didn't quite have the juice to scare NFL defenders. Allen is a much different type of player. He has a possession/YAC game that Robiskie never flashed. That's why I used Colston, Blackmon, and Crabtree as examples of his upside. Those guys do not have scary downfield speed. They make a living on short routes and are dangerous out of the slot. I think that will be Allen's game. The only difference is that he doesn't have the upper body strength of that crew. He's tall and stringy, which is a weird match for his playing style. I think that's why the formulas don't like him.

 
Allen was always going to be a tough guy to peg because he's so unconventional. He's tall and thin like a finesse receiver, but his playing style is more like a possession/YAC receiver. I think the LaFell comparison is a bit harsh though and doesn't really capture the essence of his game. In a best case scenario I think he'll end up being used kind of like a Crabtree/Boldin/Colston. He isn't as thick as those guys, but that's who his playing style and overall package of skills most closely resembles. Basically a big frame possession WR who has a knack for getting open on short routes and making things happen after the catch. I don't see top 5 upside with him. He's not going to be a dominant athlete at the NFL level. Doesn't have great strength. Doesn't have great speed. He's a guy who looks pretty safe when you watch the game clips though. The team that drafts him will know what they're getting. He's not going to make a ton of big plays downfield. If you move him around and let him work out of the slot, he'll be effective.
I used to think he was safe pick for an NFL team (not fantasy) but now I am not so sure. Unfortunately, Pac 10 wideouts like Dwayne Jarret have me questioning his pro potential. I know that it unfair to judge a player based on where he plays but I can't ignore it.
 
Allen was always going to be a tough guy to peg because he's so unconventional. He's tall and thin like a finesse receiver, but his playing style is more like a possession/YAC receiver. I think the LaFell comparison is a bit harsh though and doesn't really capture the essence of his game. In a best case scenario I think he'll end up being used kind of like a Crabtree/Boldin/Colston. He isn't as thick as those guys, but that's who his playing style and overall package of skills most closely resembles. Basically a big frame possession WR who has a knack for getting open on short routes and making things happen after the catch.

I don't see top 5 upside with him. He's not going to be a dominant athlete at the NFL level. Doesn't have great strength. Doesn't have great speed. He's a guy who looks pretty safe when you watch the game clips though. The team that drafts him will know what they're getting. He's not going to make a ton of big plays downfield. If you move him around and let him work out of the slot, he'll be effective.
I used to think he was safe pick for an NFL team (not fantasy) but now I am not so sure. Unfortunately, Pac 10 wideouts like Dwayne Jarret have me questioning his pro potential. I know that it unfair to judge a player based on where he plays but I can't ignore it.
Here is a highlight video of Keenan Allen He's a good player
 
Allen was always going to be a tough guy to peg because he's so unconventional. He's tall and thin like a finesse receiver, but his playing style is more like a possession/YAC receiver. I think the LaFell comparison is a bit harsh though and doesn't really capture the essence of his game. In a best case scenario I think he'll end up being used kind of like a Crabtree/Boldin/Colston. He isn't as thick as those guys, but that's who his playing style and overall package of skills most closely resembles. Basically a big frame possession WR who has a knack for getting open on short routes and making things happen after the catch.

I don't see top 5 upside with him. He's not going to be a dominant athlete at the NFL level. Doesn't have great strength. Doesn't have great speed. He's a guy who looks pretty safe when you watch the game clips though. The team that drafts him will know what they're getting. He's not going to make a ton of big plays downfield. If you move him around and let him work out of the slot, he'll be effective.
I used to think he was safe pick for an NFL team (not fantasy) but now I am not so sure. Unfortunately, Pac 10 wideouts like Dwayne Jarret have me questioning his pro potential. I know that it unfair to judge a player based on where he plays but I can't ignore it.
Here is a highlight video of Keenan Allen He's a good player
Thanks I have seen those. I just don't see him as being a safe pick when he doesn't have elite size or speed. Can a NFL team justify spending a high first round pick on him? I think he should be going near the bottom of the first ala Hakeem Nicks.
 
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Still working through some details, but as of now...Barkley, Bray, Manuel, Smith?Lacy, Michael, Bernard, Stacy, Ware?Hopkins, Patton, Rodgers, Austin, King, Bailey (Patterson not evaluated)Eifert, Escobar, Ertz
Have you or will you take a look at Jordan Reed? If so, let me know what you think.
I think I'm going to tackle TEs next because there are a lot fewer permutations and a lot fewer prospects than at RB or WR. Watch my sig for the write up on Reed.But IIRC Reed is both undersized and his performance measure wasn't very good. I do know I didn't like what I saw.T King reminds me a ton of Donald Driver, but doesn't seem to be generating much buzz. Still, he's someone to watch on draft day IMO. If he's a ~top 45 pick I think he leaps into a small group at the top of the WR class.
 
Allen was always going to be a tough guy to peg because he's so unconventional. He's tall and thin like a finesse receiver, but his playing style is more like a possession/YAC receiver. I think the LaFell comparison is a bit harsh though and doesn't really capture the essence of his game. In a best case scenario I think he'll end up being used kind of like a Crabtree/Boldin/Colston. He isn't as thick as those guys, but that's who his playing style and overall package of skills most closely resembles. Basically a big frame possession WR who has a knack for getting open on short routes and making things happen after the catch.

I don't see top 5 upside with him. He's not going to be a dominant athlete at the NFL level. Doesn't have great strength. Doesn't have great speed. He's a guy who looks pretty safe when you watch the game clips though. The team that drafts him will know what they're getting. He's not going to make a ton of big plays downfield. If you move him around and let him work out of the slot, he'll be effective.
I used to think he was safe pick for an NFL team (not fantasy) but now I am not so sure. Unfortunately, Pac 10 wideouts like Dwayne Jarret have me questioning his pro potential. I know that it unfair to judge a player based on where he plays but I can't ignore it.
Here is a highlight video of Keenan Allen He's a good player
Thanks I have seen those. I just don't see him as being a safe pick when he doesn't have elite size or speed. Can a NFL team justify spending a high first round pick on him? I think he should be going near the bottom of the first ala Hakeem Nicks.
Elite size/speed guarantees nothing. Ramses Barden is 6'6...nothing. Clyde Gates had great speed...nothing.
 
Necessary does not equal sufficient.

Most of the really top guys in the NFL have elite something.

I like Allen, but it's tough to envision him reaching the Pro Bowl level without having any scary qualities.

 
'EBF said:
Necessary does not equal sufficient.Most of the really top guys in the NFL have elite something. I like Allen, but it's tough to envision him reaching the Pro Bowl level without having any scary qualities.
It's amazing how many times you have to repeat this, but it is worth it. It's very difficult to be a true #1 WR in the NFL without elite athleticism and or size/speed combo. Therefore, those attributes are the the first thing you should look for among college players.
 
'EBF said:
Necessary does not equal sufficient.Most of the really top guys in the NFL have elite something. I like Allen, but it's tough to envision him reaching the Pro Bowl level without having any scary qualities.
Here are some fantasy WR1s from 2012, what is their elite attribute other than getting open?WhiteWayneWelkerDeckerIf you start looking at WR2s from 2012Stevie JohnsonMike WilliamsJames JonesColston CrabtreeLance MooreIf you mean "All Pro" level, yeah maybe. But "Pro Bowl" level, I don't get it.Which of the guys above are better athletes than Allen, esp if you bring in he's 6'3" (honest question)
 
'EBF said:
Necessary does not equal sufficient.Most of the really top guys in the NFL have elite something. I like Allen, but it's tough to envision him reaching the Pro Bowl level without having any scary qualities.
Here are some fantasy WR1s from 2012, what is their elite attribute other than getting open?WhiteWayneWelkerDeckerIf you start looking at WR2s from 2012Stevie JohnsonMike WilliamsJames JonesColston CrabtreeLance MooreIf you mean "All Pro" level, yeah maybe. But "Pro Bowl" level, I don't get it.Which of the guys above are better athletes than Allen, esp if you bring in he's 6'3" (honest question)
Many of them are better athletes than Allen. Certainly someone like Mike Williams has him trumped in every way on paper.Most of those guys aren't elite NFL receivers though. I fully believe that Allen can become a Steve Johnson/James Jones/Mike Williams/Eric Decker level player. Those guys are not special talents. I think people holding a 1.01 or 1.02 rookie pick would probably be hoping for someone better. Can he become a Colston or Crabtree? Yes, that's why I named those two guys just a couple posts ago. I would caution against describing them as average athletes though. Crabtree has an extremely high weight-to-height ratio for a WR. At 6'1.3" 215 pounds, he has a 28.1 BMI. That's Calvin/Dez/Fitzgerald territory. Allen doesn't have that kind of mass. His 26.4 BMI is lower than guys like Maclin, Wallace, and Wayne. All of those guys ran sub 4.5. They have above average speed to compensate for their lack of bulk. Allen doesn't. Colston doesn't have great bulk, but he's still taller and much heavier than Allen. He ran 4.50 at the combine and jumped 37" in the vert and 10'3" in the broad jump. Solid numbers across the board. Not amazing, but probably better in every category than what Allen will do. Hard to say without having Allen's numbers in front of us. I would say Colston is the best comparison for Allen. Allen is smaller though. Roddy really doesn't belong in the conversation. 27.2 BMI. 4.46 40. 41" vertical leap. 10'6" broad jump. Very good numbers.Welker is a unique player. I think he benefits from the system he plays in tremendously. Even so, he has a 29.1 BMI. Highest of any elite WR besides Andre Johnson. He is short, but he is strong for his height.The basic rule of thumb for WRs and RBs is pretty simple. Big and explosive is best. If you're not big, you need to be extra explosive (DeSean Jackson, CJ Spiller). If you're not explosive, you need to be extra big (Anquan Boldin, Brandon Marshall). The problem is that a lot of people only know to look at 40 times, so when they see a guy like Crabtree or Marshall they don't understand the fact that the bulk is an elite athletic trait. Football is a strength game as much as it's a speed game. That's reflected in the results. Virtually every top NFL receiver checks out well from a BMI standpoint. You can see for yourself:Calvin - 1 - 28.3Bryant - 1 - 28.8Fitzgerald - 1 - 28.3Harvin - 1 - 26.7Green - 1 - 26.0Andre - 1 - 29.5Thomas - 1 - 27.8White - 1 - 27.2Wayne - 1 - 26.9Bowe - 1 - 28.2Julio - 1 - 27.8Crabtree - 1 - 28.1Maclin - 1 - 26.7Blackmon - 1 - 27.5Nicks - 1 - 28.3Decker - 2 - 27.0Boldin - 2 - 28.9Torrey - 2 - 27.1VJax - 2 - 28.9Cobb - 2 - 27.2Jennings - 2 - 27.4Jordy - 2 - 27.5Jam Jones - 3 - 27.6Smith CAR - 3 - 27.2Wallace - 3 - 26.8LMW - 4 - 29.2Lloyd - 4Hartline - 4Marshall - 4 - 27.6Shorts - 4 - 28.1Garcon - 6 - 28.7Stevie - 7 - 27.2Colston - 7 - 26.9Cruz - UDFA - 28.3Welker - UDFAMoore - UDFAAustin - UDFA - 27.5Allen is a 26.4. That's not shockingly low, but it's not good for a guy who will probably clock 4.5-4.6 in the 40. I would say he basically has no chance of becoming a top end Pro Bowl type of receiver like Bryant, Fitzgerald, or Calvin. At best he will probably be a Colston type. A fringe Pro Bowler who has high reception totals, but relatively low YPC and big play numbers.
 
'EBF said:
Necessary does not equal sufficient.Most of the really top guys in the NFL have elite something. I like Allen, but it's tough to envision him reaching the Pro Bowl level without having any scary qualities.
Here are some fantasy WR1s from 2012, what is their elite attribute other than getting open?White - hes an elite atheleteWayne - Peyton Manning & Andrew Luck, he's no slouch athleticallyWelker - Tom BradyDecker - Peyton ManningIf you start looking at WR2s from 2012Stevie JohnsonMike WilliamsJames Jones - Aaron RodgersColston - Drew BreesCrabtree -Lance Moore - Drew BreesIf you mean "All Pro" level, yeah maybe. But "Pro Bowl" level, I don't get it.Which of the guys above are better athletes than Allen, esp if you bring in he's 6'3" (honest question)
All of the above guys you listed besides Stevie Johnson have elite level QB play, Brees, Brady, Peyton, Rodgers. Crabtree did ok with Alex Smith, but he was downright scary with Kaeper."Really Good" with elite level Qb play can be just as valuable as the truely elite level playersPut Keenan Allen with a top tier QB, lets watch n see
 
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'EBF said:
Necessary does not equal sufficient.Most of the really top guys in the NFL have elite something. I like Allen, but it's tough to envision him reaching the Pro Bowl level without having any scary qualities.
Here are some fantasy WR1s from 2012, what is their elite attribute other than getting open?WhiteWayneWelkerDeckerIf you start looking at WR2s from 2012Stevie JohnsonMike WilliamsJames JonesColston CrabtreeLance MooreIf you mean "All Pro" level, yeah maybe. But "Pro Bowl" level, I don't get it.Which of the guys above are better athletes than Allen, esp if you bring in he's 6'3" (honest question)
:goodposting: This is my point. Keenan Allen is like Matt Forte or Doug Martin. Not great at any one thing, but above average at about everything.Above average sizeAbove average handsAbove average quickness/speed for sizeAbove average after the catchyou get my point
 
'EBF said:
Necessary does not equal sufficient.

Most of the really top guys in the NFL have elite something.

I like Allen, but it's tough to envision him reaching the Pro Bowl level without having any scary qualities.
Here are some fantasy WR1s from 2012, what is their elite attribute other than getting open?White

Wayne

Welker

Decker

If you start looking at WR2s from 2012

Stevie Johnson

Mike Williams

James Jones

Colston

Crabtree

Lance Moore

If you mean "All Pro" level, yeah maybe. But "Pro Bowl" level, I don't get it.

Which of the guys above are better athletes than Allen, esp if you bring in he's 6'3" (honest question)
Many of them are better athletes than Allen. Certainly someone like Mike Williams has him trumped in every way on paper.Most of those guys aren't elite NFL receivers though. I fully believe that Allen can become a Steve Johnson/James Jones/Mike Williams/Eric Decker level player. Those guys are not special talents. I think people holding a 1.01 or 1.02 rookie pick would probably be hoping for someone better.

Allen is a 26.4. That's not shockingly low, but it's not good for a guy who will probably clock 4.5-4.6 in the 40. I would say he basically has no chance of becoming a top end Pro Bowl type of receiver like Bryant, Fitzgerald, or Calvin. At best he will probably be a Colston type. A fringe Pro Bowler who has high reception totals, but relatively low YPC and big play numbers.
Mike Williams has him trumped in every way on paper? I can't believe how much junk you spew out like it's a fact.Mike Williams at the combine:

Size 6'1.5 221

Arm length 32.5

Hand size 9.25

40=4.53

Short Shuttle=4.31

3 cone= 6.90

Vertical= 33.5

Broad Jump= 9 feet 8 inches

Keenan Allen at the combine:

Size 6'2.1 206

Arm length 32.75

Hand Size 10

The only thing Williams wins so far is weight and i'd be beyond shocked if he can't beat those poor athletic marks.

Nobody said Keenan Allen is elite or will be a top end pro bowl player.

BMI- Allen can't gain weight?

40 time- He will be closer to 4.49 than 4.6. Alshon Jeffery ran a 4.48 at his pro day

 
Doug Martin is huge. He's 223 pounds at just 5'9.2". One of the stockiest starting backs in the NFL. Only below guys like Turner, MJD, and T Rich.

Allen has above average size if all you look at is height, but he has below average size if you think in terms of weight and bulk, which I'd argue is a much better method. Here are the top 20 FF WRs in my PPR league last season and their corresponding BMI:

1. Calvin - 28.3

2. Marshall - 27.6

3. Bryant - 28.8

4. Green - 26.0

5. Thomas - 27.8

6. A Johnson - 29.5

7. Welker - 29.1

8. Wayne - 26.9

9. Decker - 27.0

10. Roddy - 27.2

11. Julio - 27.8

12. VJax - 28.9

13. Colston - 26.9

14. Cruz - 28.3

15. Crabtree - 28.1

16. Cobb - 27.2

17. Jam Jones - 27.6

18. Stevie - 27.2

19. M Williams - 29.2

20. Smith CAR - 27.2

What you notice is that there's a pretty narrow range of effective body types. 19 of the 20 WRs on this list have a higher BMI than Allen, so it's fair to say that his size is well below average. Here are the 40 times for the guys who are within 1 BMI point of Allen:

Green - 26.0 - 4.48

Wayne - 26.9 - 4.45

Decker - 27.0 - N/A

Roddy - 27.2 - 4.46

Colston - 26.9 - 4.50

Cobb - 27.2 - 4.46

Stevie - 27.2 - 4.58

Smith CAR - 27.2 - 4.41

What this shows is that most of the lighter WRs are also pretty fast. Stevie is the only guy on this list who clocked above 4.50, and I'd argue that he's just a #2 WR masquerading as a #1 on a team that lacks options. And therein lies the risk with Allen. Not only is he on the light side for WR, but he also doesn't have the speed that you would expect from a thinner player. That could change depending on how well he clocks at his pro day, but from where we stand now I think it's fair to say that he's lacking from a size/speed standpoint.

I still think he can be a solid contributor because he has a lot of the intangibles, but from a physical standpoint he doesn't stack up with the NFL's best and that's a concern, especially if you're hoping that he can become a really top notch player and not just a solid pro.

 
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Mike Williams has him trumped in every way on paper? I can't believe how much junk you spew out like it's a fact.
Yea, I was wrong about Williams. I went back and checked his workouts after I typed that and realized that he didn't perform as well as I remembered. He did have a pretty good pro day though and he's at the very top of the scale in terms of weight per height, so he has that going for him. And bear in mind that Williams is not an elite NFL WR. More of a #2.
BMI- Allen can't gain weight?
The combine is the only time in a player's career when you get an accurate and objective measurement of his height and weight. Maybe Allen will gain weight. Then again, maybe Marshall, Fitzgerald, VJax, Wayne, and Harvin all gained weight after the combine too. If you are going to move the goalposts for one guy, you have to move it for the entire set of players. If you assume that the average pro WR prospect gains the same amount of weight after the combine that Allen will gain, then it's a moot point. He'll still check in well below average compared to the field of standout NFL receivers.
40 time- He will be closer to 4.49 than 4.6. Alshon Jeffery ran a 4.48 at his pro day
Which is another debate entirely. How do we compare pro day 40 times to combine 40 times? I think most people would agree that the former tend to be faster. I'm sure Rob could chime in about this.
 
Pro day times are faster because they are handtimed or guys are more relaxed or the ran harder. Montee Ball ran a faster time because he ran harder. He was reported at 4.49, but I have him at 4.53. He wasn't running very hard on his 4.66. Lane Johnson was really straining on his 40 at the combine with his 4.73, but in his training video he ran legit 4.67 and 4.69.

If you have the video you can measure and believe for yourself what the actual time is. Otherwise I don't put too much stock into it.

 
When a guy runs the 40 at his Pro Day is usually means they had a disappointing time at the Combine. Otherwise they usually don't run it. Most of the time the Pro Day is at least .05 faster, with the average being closer to .1.

Some of them are much different and closer to .2 - Sanu (.19 faster) and Rishard Matthews (.18 faster).

I don't put too much into the Pro Day 40 times other than making sure they run 4.5 or less (which they generally do). Criner is the only guy who I have running over 4.5 at his Pro Day (4.54) - much faster than his 4.68 combine.

 
Pro day times are faster because they are handtimed or guys are more relaxed or the ran harder. Montee Ball ran a faster time because he ran harder. He was reported at 4.49, but I have him at 4.53. He wasn't running very hard on his 4.66. Lane Johnson was really straining on his 40 at the combine with his 4.73, but in his training video he ran legit 4.67 and 4.69.If you have the video you can measure and believe for yourself what the actual time is. Otherwise I don't put too much stock into it.
What possible reason would Ball have for not running hard at the combine? How does that make any sense?I have no idea if guys are really faster at their pro days -- taking advantage of a non-standard, uncontrolled environment -- or if the times are just faster because there's less infrastructure in place to get an accurate reading. But IMO while pro days are better than nothing they should be taken with a big grain of salt if the player is someone whose speed is a make or break issue (there actually aren't very many of these).I do like the idea of measuring the times using video, but the problem is that it makes it hard to compare with historic data.In one of the 'crowd' shots from Indy it looked like one of the teams (the Giants?) had like ten guys there with stopwatches. Something like that, with the two fastest and two slowest times thrown out would also make a lot of sense. And I'd standardize on-campus visits as well. Same location, same timers, same temperature, same time of day, etc. Basically collect as much data and have it be as accurate as possible.
 
Mike Williams has him trumped in every way on paper? I can't believe how much junk you spew out like it's a fact.
Yea, I was wrong about Williams. I went back and checked his workouts after I typed that and realized that he didn't perform as well as I remembered. He did have a pretty good pro day though and he's at the very top of the scale in terms of weight per height, so he has that going for him. And bear in mind that Williams is not an elite NFL WR. More of a #2.
BMI- Allen can't gain weight?
The combine is the only time in a player's career when you get an accurate and objective measurement of his height and weight. Maybe Allen will gain weight. Then again, maybe Marshall, Fitzgerald, VJax, Wayne, and Harvin all gained weight after the combine too. If you are going to move the goalposts for one guy, you have to move it for the entire set of players. If you assume that the average pro WR prospect gains the same amount of weight after the combine that Allen will gain, then it's a moot point. He'll still check in well below average compared to the field of standout NFL receivers. I would venture to guess the odds of a player with a lower BMI are higher in increasing weight over players with a higher BMI increasing their weight. This was my point. I'm sure Marquess Wilson has a much easier time increasing in weight over your boy Marcus Davis. Do you disagree?

40 time- He will be closer to 4.49 than 4.6. Alshon Jeffery ran a 4.48 at his pro day
Which is another debate entirely. How do we compare pro day 40 times to combine 40 times? I think most people would agree that the former tend to be faster. I'm sure Rob could chime in about this.But considering that neither Jeffery nor Allen ran at at the combine, we have nothing to compare it to. You're simply guessing he runs between a 4.5-4.6. He could run a 4.44 for all we know. He isn't a burner, but he isn't a sloth.
 
Pro day times are faster because they are handtimed or guys are more relaxed or the ran harder. Montee Ball ran a faster time because he ran harder. He was reported at 4.49, but I have him at 4.53. He wasn't running very hard on his 4.66. Lane Johnson was really straining on his 40 at the combine with his 4.73, but in his training video he ran legit 4.67 and 4.69.If you have the video you can measure and believe for yourself what the actual time is. Otherwise I don't put too much stock into it.
What possible reason would Ball have for not running hard at the combine? How does that make any sense?I have no idea if guys are really faster at their pro days -- taking advantage of a non-standard, uncontrolled environment -- or if the times are just faster because there's less infrastructure in place to get an accurate reading. But IMO while pro days are better than nothing they should be taken with a big grain of salt if the player is someone whose speed is a make or break issue (there actually aren't very many of these).I do like the idea of measuring the times using video, but the problem is that it makes it hard to compare with historic data.In one of the 'crowd' shots from Indy it looked like one of the teams (the Giants?) had like ten guys there with stopwatches. Something like that, with the two fastest and two slowest times thrown out would also make a lot of sense. And I'd standardize on-campus visits as well. Same location, same timers, same temperature, same time of day, etc. Basically collect as much data and have it be as accurate as possible.
I have no idea why Ball didn't run hard, but if you watch him run, he wasn't running that hard. If you watched someone like Desmond Trufant run, that's what I call running hard. If everyone ran as hard as Trufant did, they'd have better times, guaranteed.http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-combine/0ap2000000145268/Desmond-Trufant-runs-the-40-yard-dash
 

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