tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Has nothing to do with party. My company won't even hire a junior analyst unless he has a college degree. Seems silly that in this day and age the leader of our country wouldn't be extremely well educated.
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Scott Walker WI governor vs the Packers & teachers (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter cr8f
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tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Those were different times. A college diploma is like a HS diploma 60 years ago.
Why wouldn't we want the leaders of our country to be well educated?
Riversco
Footballguy
How do the numbers not work?
How many people are no longer counted in the Wisconsin workforce because they have given up looking for work? What if those people re-enter the workforce? Are you accounting for that?
Underachievers
Footballguy
Seems to me that it is the higher educated people that have gotten this country into the fricken mess it is in now. Sorry......but a diploma does not mean you are capable of leading a state/country.
MaxThreshold
Footballguy
Oh JHC, I nearly pissed myself I'm laughing so hard.
Let me guess....you're an "independent" too, right?
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IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I have to agree with Gunz on this one. Yeah sure, there are outliers like Bill Gates, but as a general principle I'd expect elected leaders to have a college degree. A BA or BS is the white collar equivalent of a HS diploma in modern society.
Having said that, I'll get a little more elitist and say that "college degree" <> "well-educated" and that theoretically somebody who skipped college and devoted a lot of his or her free time to studying the canon would probably be much better educated that your typical b-school graduate. But again, that would be an outlier.
Having said that, I'll get a little more elitist and say that "college degree" <> "well-educated" and that theoretically somebody who skipped college and devoted a lot of his or her free time to studying the canon would probably be much better educated that your typical b-school graduate. But again, that would be an outlier.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Nobody is claiming it is the norm. However if you make it a requirement to have a college degree, then you are eliminating the outliers. Sometimes the outliers are the most talented people.
Mr.Pack
Footballguy
I didn't know Walker was a surgeon.
But a guy with no medical or insurance experience is entrusted to run a Health Insurance Plan?
Mr.Pack
Footballguy
Disagree. Experience trumps all.
Anyone can read books and claim to learn, but actually doing things is how people learn what works and what doesn't.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Rayderr
Footballguy
Yet, out of the 44 presidents we've had, 35 of them have college degrees, despite most of them holding the office in a "different era"
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Right. By and large, you'd expect/hope that our leaders would be intellectually accomplished. I think that's what TGunz is saying.
Rayderr
Footballguy
I've met plenty of college grads who are as dumb as a box of rocks and plenty of people who haven't graduated college that are pretty damn smart. I'm guessing you have to. Using a degree as the determining factor as to whether someone is smart (or "intellectually accomplished") is rather narrowminded.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I don't think anybody is arguing that there's a one-to-one correspondence between "having a college degree" and "being smart." I'm certainly not, and I've said so a couple of times. I definitely agree that lots of people manage to graduate from college without receiving much of an education.
That said, today's society channels just about all bright people into college. I've argued elsewhere that this isn't necessarily a great thing, but it's the world we live in. So when somebody shows up without a college degree, it's a little strange, and I start from the presumption that the reason for a lack of a college degree is due to a lack of intellectual ability. Like I said above, I'm open to evidence that dispels that presumption (such as the college dropout who goes on to found a leading software company, or the guy who teaches himself law and goes on to a successful political career). But most people who don't go to college in modern America aren't Bill Gates or Abraham Lincoln -- those guys are the exception, not the rule.
Rayderr
Footballguy
Most people who do go to college in modern America aren't Jeff Bezos or Barack Obama - those guys are the exception, not the rule.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
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Rayderr
Footballguy
Same place as where I started off. A degree or lack of one is not a good determining factor of whether or not one will be successful, intelligent, a good leader, has good ideas, etc. So let's drop the narrowmindedness and stop pretending that a piece of parchment is the key difference.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
I doubt you really believe this. Are you indifferent to whether your children attend college? When you hire people, is their educational background also a matter of complete indifference to you? If you had it to do over again, would you skip college? If the answer to these questions is "no," then you must think college matters somehow, if only a little bit.
Rayderr
Footballguy
sho nuff
Footballguy
Hope...yes.
Eliminate those that don't have the degree? No.
My guess...based on his posts over the years...if Walker had a D next to his name, TGunz wouldn't give a flying rat's behind about whether or not he had a degree.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Think of it as a necessary but insufficient condition. Not having a degree should generally be disqualifying (or more accurately, it should establish a presumption that the person is unqualified to hold office, but we might overcome that presumption in extraordinary cases). But just because somebody happens to have a degree doesn't automatically mean that they're qualified. It just clears one hurdle, not all of them.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
You might be right, but I think if Walker wasn't a Republican I would have more success persuading folks that bright people tend to have college degrees.
Rayderr
Footballguy
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Because if someone is going to be making law and policy, I think that person ought to be well-educated.
That's why I think of college as necessary but not sufficient. There are a lot of people with degrees who are still basically uneducated, but it's very rare to meet someone who is well-educated without a degree.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
A university degree is 100% irrelevant to Walker's day to day. He's very successful and very good at what he does, despite lacking a college degree or any experience or career outside of politics. His lack of any meaningful accomplishments or experience could hinder a further political career beyond governor of Wisconsin, but its not in any way hindered his success in his current job.
Rayderr
Footballguy
But a college degree does not determine whether or not someone is "well educated." Hell, I'd say most of our elected officials, who do have college degrees, aren't well educated.
Arsenal of Doom
Footballguy
It's also the same reason that it is generally disqualifying in every other walk of professional life. it's a credential that is fairly easy to obtain if you are at least marginally competent, and not having it is a competitive disadvantage that is inexplicable in someone looking to advance high in any organizational hierarchy.
The popular modern exceptions to this rule are people who have typically built the organization under themselves as opposed to moving through it.
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
$1.50 in late fees?IvanKaramazov said:
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
I think if Scott Walker had just dropped out of college last year, it would make sense to give that fact serious consideration. But he's done some other stuff in the past 24 years that are slightly more revealing in judging his ability to be governor or President. Seems like having dropped out of college is just an interesting sidenote now.
Rayderr
Footballguy
That's not necessarily true either. usually you just have to start lower on the corporate ladder.
Rayderr
Footballguy
well, aside from that second part. I don't have a degree. In fact, over half the people who work at my communications hub don't have degrees. Plenty of smart people out there that don't have degrees.
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Not at all. I'd say the same thing about any Democratic candidate for President as well. The idea that education doesn't matter is beyond silly.
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
No one is saying that all folks w/o a college degree are dumb. Of course there are lots of smart folks out there who for some reason or another never went to college. But come on, if we are selecting one person to lead the executive branch and represent our country for 4 years, why wouldn't we want them as well educated as possible?
Again, not saying degree alone = smart or that folks w/o degrees can't be successful in life.
No doubt. Look at how his ilk went after Palin. "Well, yeah she had a college degree but it wasn't from a GOOD college." And then there was Bush. "Well yeah he graduated from an Ivy League but he only got in because of his family ties, and his GPA sucked." All the while Bush had a similar GPA to Kerry, who was his opponent, yet his detractors never mentioned that.
Arsenal of Doom
Footballguy
I think everyone here has allowed for exceptions. If you look at the demographics for Fortune 500 CEOs, however, I'm pretty sure you will find well over 90% with degrees and a high percent of those with advanced degrees. I also don't think anyone is saying that there should be a legal requirement for the President to have a degree, it's just going to be a large competitive disadvantage. Large enough that I think it's highly unlikely we'll ever see another major party nominee who doesn't have one. Whether right or wrong, enough people will use it as a criteria that the individual would have to be incredibly accomplished to overcome it.
Rayderr
Footballguy
Yes, but it's a very dangerous path that the "pro degree" crowd is heading down. If only people with degrees are qualifies to run the country, what do we do about the people who actually elect them to that position? Shall we limit voting to just those with degrees? If a person without a degree can choose who serves as an elected official, then why can't a person without a degree be elected?
SHIZNITTTT
Footballguy
Summarize:
People can be smart without degrees
A person can be President without a degree
Scott Walker has no chance in He11 being President with or without a degree
People can be smart without degrees
A person can be President without a degree
Scott Walker has no chance in He11 being President with or without a degree
sho nuff
Footballguy
Never said education doesn't matter. I said a degree doesn't matter.
And your denial of what you would do for a D is pretty funny given your history of posting on here.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Personally I think the president should have a college degree at a minimum and not only that we should be able to see the full transcripts and grades for all presidential candidates.
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sho nuff
Footballguy
Id pretty much agree...though, I won't say no chance simply because of how foolish the electorate can be.
Though, he better work better to hide that bald spot of his...always funny watching him talk and will only stand certain ways to try and hide what everyone already knows about his hair going bye bye.
MaxThreshold
Footballguy
I agree with this.
Then again, the electorate also voted Obama in office so anything is possible.
timschochet
Footballguy
Scott Walker in some trouble?
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/20/us/scott-walker-wisconsin-governor.html?hp&_r=0
CHICAGO — Prosecutors in Wisconsin assert that Gov. Scott Walker was part of an elaborate effort to illegally coordinate fund-raising and spending between his campaign and conservative groups during efforts to recall him and several state senators two years ago, according to court filings unsealed Thursday.
The allegations by five county district attorneys, released as part of a federal lawsuit over the investigation into Mr. Walker, suggest that some of the governor’s top campaign aides directed the political spending of the outside groups, most of them nonprofits, and in effect controlled some of them.
The documents made public on Thursday threatened to cloud the political prospects of Mr. Walker, who is seeking election to a second term this fall and is mentioned as a possible Republican presidential candidate in 2016. They provided a rare view of the inner workings of a far-flung network of conservative nonprofit groups that have come to play a decisive role in national and state elections, secretly moving hundreds of millions of dollars into campaigns by avoiding traditional political action committees, which typically face tougher disclosure requirements.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/20/us/scott-walker-wisconsin-governor.html?hp&_r=0
CHICAGO — Prosecutors in Wisconsin assert that Gov. Scott Walker was part of an elaborate effort to illegally coordinate fund-raising and spending between his campaign and conservative groups during efforts to recall him and several state senators two years ago, according to court filings unsealed Thursday.
The allegations by five county district attorneys, released as part of a federal lawsuit over the investigation into Mr. Walker, suggest that some of the governor’s top campaign aides directed the political spending of the outside groups, most of them nonprofits, and in effect controlled some of them.
The documents made public on Thursday threatened to cloud the political prospects of Mr. Walker, who is seeking election to a second term this fall and is mentioned as a possible Republican presidential candidate in 2016. They provided a rare view of the inner workings of a far-flung network of conservative nonprofit groups that have come to play a decisive role in national and state elections, secretly moving hundreds of millions of dollars into campaigns by avoiding traditional political action committees, which typically face tougher disclosure requirements.
NCCommish
Footballguy
snogger
Footballguy
Dig further and you'd find out two judges.. one state and one federal already dismissed this case.. in fact the reason the documents were released by the "club" that the lawsuit was against was to "get the truth out there" in their words... I still think they played loose with the laws.. but when two seperate judges basically say the lawsuit is
it's time to move on.
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timschochet
Footballguy
I have no love for Scott Walker, but I hate these kinds of cases. They're confusing. I've read that article a few times now and I'm still not sure what he did wrong and whether or not it really should be wrong in the first place.
MaxThreshold
Footballguy
He didn't do anything wrong.
TWO judges have already decided that (state and federal). In fact, the Federal judge didn't buy ANY of the DA's allegations and immediately quashed the John Doe and told the DA's they must stop any further investigation and return all documents.
Basically, the DA's in the John Doe are illegally using it as a cudgel to silence conservative groups in WI. It's the same idea behind the IRS scandal, except this time the conservative groups are fighting back and are personally going after the DA's in federal court for illegally using the John Doe and violating their constitutional rights.
This thing has been going on for 3 or 4 years now and they haven't found ANYTHING to charge Walker with, so now they're hoping to convict in the Court of Public Opinion. It's been nothing but a political Witch Hunt with the DA's illegally using the John Doe.
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