starks
Footballguy
I have heard more positive than negative surrounding Ertz future in Philly. I think top 3-5 ceiling and 8-10 floor, I will be aiming for him in redraft for sure.
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
A little dynasty TE discussion... (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter AngryPatriot
- Start date
cstu
Footballguy
McCluster's 53 receptions are gone and McGrath/Fasano combined for 49 catches. They didn't add any receiving options.
There's definitely room for him to be a big part of the offense.
socrates
Footballguy
Good call. Ausberry could be an absolute monster if he finally puts it together on the field.
loose circuits
Footballguy
or he could be Teyo Johnson...
EBF
Footballguy
No risk when the price is zero. Ausberry is a freaky athlete on paper and has shown glimmers of potential on the field. He was on track to start last year and was having a strong preseason before the injury. Not sure he will beat out Rivera, but he certainly could. He seems to have a much higher ceiling for FF.
He's a low risk dice roll that could pop really big ala Jordan Cameron and Julius Thomas.
He's a low risk dice roll that could pop really big ala Jordan Cameron and Julius Thomas.
Last edited by a moderator:
LBH
Footballguy
I think he has a lot more potential for immediate fantasy impact than McDonald. He's in a better passing offense and has less competition for targets.
Noah Davis
Footballguy
Concept Coop
Footballguy
Do you base this on the offense, or how Ertz looked?
I'm an Ertz owner, but I am trying to be cautious, after striking out on Fleener last season. Like Fleener, Ertz's value is based largely on changes we think the offense could make. Of course, Ertz isn't Fleener. He could explode or fade away, and it will have nothing to do with Fleener, but I'd be a bit cautious about investing too much into his current situation.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
Witten has plenty of years left. If Escobar is going to be fantasy relevant, it will be in two TE sets, or on another team. Neither of those are likely, short-term. He's droppable in standard PPR leagues.kb488 said:
Adam Harstad
Moderator
Maybe. Maybe not. I've mentioned in the past, but I like to think of player aging as if each year players have a certain chance of falling off the cliff unexpectedly, and every year they age, that percentage goes up. I think it better models real life. By that model, Witten could completely disappear as early as this year.
To look at it another way... Witten has the most receptions in NFL history through age 31. Here are the next 30 guys, along with their last fantasy-useful season (WR36 or better, TE12 or better).
Larry Fitzgerald (n/a)
Randy Moss (32)
Tony Gonzalez (37)
Andre Johnson (n/a)
Torry Holt (31)
Wes Welker (n/a)
Marvin Harrison (34)
Marshall Faulk (30)
Hines Ward (33)
Brandon Marshall (n/a)
Anquan Boldin (n/a)
Jerry Rice (40)
Andre Reed (33)
Isaac Bruce (36)
Chad Ochocinco (31)
Andre Rison (30)
Reggie Wayne (n/a)
Terrell Owens (37)
Cris Carter (36)
Michael Irvin (31)
Herman Moore (29)
Laveranues Coles (31)
Rob Moore (30)
Steve Largent (33)
Roddy White (n/a)
Steve Smith (n/a)
Gary Clark (31)
Marques Colston (n/a)
Larry Centers (28)
Keyshawn Johnson (33)
It's easy to suggest that Witten has a lot of years left. Plenty of people would have suggested the same about a 32-year-old Randy Moss, Torry Holt, Chad Ochocinco, or Michael Irvin, too. Now, this ignores the fact that a player can be "not fantasy relevant" but still steal enough snaps to ruin someone else's value. It also ignores the fact that TEs have historically not aged as well as WRs.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
I don't mean to sound so certain as to declare it fact. But Witten is a HOF talent whose skill-set I project to age well. For my money, he'll be able to play into his late 30's, if he wants to.
Adam Harstad
Moderator
I don't necessarily disagree with this. I just wanted to point out that I would have once said exactly the same thing about Randy Moss, Torry Holt, and Ochocinco (well, I would have called Ocho a near-HoF talent, instead).
I'd roster Escobar for the same reason I like rostering backup QBs. Namely, because #*$% happens.
BeTheMatch
Footballguy
I tend to think Witten is ripe to fall off a cliff in terms of production. He's never been a burner or anything, but recently he has looked pretty old IMO. I tend to think he will go poof rather than fade away slowly - whenever that is. And I really don't think it will be several years. I honestly think this year could be it for him.
Adam Harstad
Moderator
Yeah, that's another reason I like my aging model (which instead of a gradual decline assumes an ever-increasing chance of completely falling off of a cliff). Historically, guys who have slowly faded have been very much the exception and not the rule.
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
Couple of Rotoworld blurbs on some basketball converts and Toilolo and why you should sell now:
Coach Andy Reid praised second-year TE Demetrius Harris' work at the Chiefs' rookie minicamp.
"This camp was great for him," Reid said. "He played exceptionally well. He’s so big, and he’s worked so stinkin’ hard in that weight room. He’s been living in there this offseason and you can tell." A converted basketball player, Harris spent last season on the practice squad. He stands 6-foot-7 and 230 pounds with 4.52 wheels. Anthony Fasano is the top blocking tight end in Kansas City, while Travis Kelce is expected to be a big part of the 2014 offense. But Harris has an intriguing skill set and is a player to monitor in deep dynasty.
Coach Chuck Pagano said UDFA TE Erik Swoope was "off the charts" at his first minicamp.
Swoope, 6'5/220, was a four-year player on the University of Miami's hoops squad. This minicamp was his first ever exposure to organized football. Swoope "exceeded our expectations way beyond anything that you’d ever imagine for a guy that never played," Pagano said. He'll have to add weight and continue to show rapid progress to earn a developmental spot on the practice squad.
Only 2.7 percent of Matt Ryan's 2013 throws targeted an in-line tight end, the lowest percentage in the league last year.
The stat is skewed because Tony Gonzalez so frequently aligned in the slot, but throwing to in-line or "Y" tight ends hasn't been a big part of OC Dirk Koetter's passing attack. The Falcons will play base-three-receiver offense with Gonzo retired, leaving Levine Toilolo to fill the in-line role. Expect Toilolo to see very limited volume, though he could contribute often in the red zone.
Coach Andy Reid praised second-year TE Demetrius Harris' work at the Chiefs' rookie minicamp.
"This camp was great for him," Reid said. "He played exceptionally well. He’s so big, and he’s worked so stinkin’ hard in that weight room. He’s been living in there this offseason and you can tell." A converted basketball player, Harris spent last season on the practice squad. He stands 6-foot-7 and 230 pounds with 4.52 wheels. Anthony Fasano is the top blocking tight end in Kansas City, while Travis Kelce is expected to be a big part of the 2014 offense. But Harris has an intriguing skill set and is a player to monitor in deep dynasty.
Coach Chuck Pagano said UDFA TE Erik Swoope was "off the charts" at his first minicamp.
Swoope, 6'5/220, was a four-year player on the University of Miami's hoops squad. This minicamp was his first ever exposure to organized football. Swoope "exceeded our expectations way beyond anything that you’d ever imagine for a guy that never played," Pagano said. He'll have to add weight and continue to show rapid progress to earn a developmental spot on the practice squad.
Only 2.7 percent of Matt Ryan's 2013 throws targeted an in-line tight end, the lowest percentage in the league last year.
The stat is skewed because Tony Gonzalez so frequently aligned in the slot, but throwing to in-line or "Y" tight ends hasn't been a big part of OC Dirk Koetter's passing attack. The Falcons will play base-three-receiver offense with Gonzo retired, leaving Levine Toilolo to fill the in-line role. Expect Toilolo to see very limited volume, though he could contribute often in the red zone.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
Care to expand on this? Have you seen him slowing down at all? Aside from early 2012 (he went on to break the single season record for receptions by a TE)--he's looked like the same guy to me.
Last edited by a moderator:
Concept Coop
Footballguy
I think Randy punted on a few productive seasons. I don't see anything that led to Randy's fall applying to Witten.
Torry and Ochocinco were a bit undersized for their position, and relied much more on speed and quickness.
I certainly understand that your point doesn't rely on these names. But I don't see many recent comps for Witten, excpet guys like Sharpe and Gonzo, who are reason for optimism.
Ketamine Dreams
Footballguy
It's based on a combination of factors: looked good especially toward the end of last year IIRC, a year under his belt, increased opportunity with Jackson gone, solid evaluation prior to the draft, and just an overall gestalt.
BeTheMatch
Footballguy
Just have watched most games in recent years, and he just seems to be lumbering even more than usual. It's all completely subjective. To my eyes, it just looks like he's slowing down, and he's just taken so much punishment over the years. A lot of his numbers last year seem to have come in those situations late in halves where he's the wide-open checkdown in hurry-up mode. I know that can continue, but he just doesn't seem like the weapon he once was. Everything looks like more of a struggle now than it ever did before. I even remember quite a few drops too. Just very un-Witten like, IMO. Hope I'm wrong. He's one of my favorite players - fantasy-wise and NFL-wise.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
He's looked the same to me--he's always been lumbering and slower than his 40 time. But, as you said, it is comlpetely subjective.
Also, Garrett (and Romo) runs plays to get Witten open short, and I expect that to continue. I think 2012 had more than usual--with the line being a major weakness. But last year it held up, and--I personally assume--Witten's usage was by design and typical.
Faust
MVP
Rotoworld:
C.J. Fiedorowicz - TE - Texans
Texans coach Bill O'Brien is referring to third-round pick C.J. Fiedorowicz as a "Y" tight end, or in-line player.
It's the position manned by Rob Gronkowski in O'Brien's Patriots offenses. It's also worth noting Greg Cosell drew a poor man's Gronk comparison after watching Fiedorowicz's game tape. Whereas in other offenses "in-line" tight ends focus on blocking and are lightly used in the passing game, O'Brien has been aggressive feeding his in-line tight ends targets. Fiedorowicz's primary competition for starting snaps will be sophomore Ryan Griffin. Garrett Graham will play the "F" or "move" tight end role in O'Brien's attack.
Source: houstontexans.com
May 27 - 12:06 PM
C.J. Fiedorowicz - TE - Texans
Texans coach Bill O'Brien is referring to third-round pick C.J. Fiedorowicz as a "Y" tight end, or in-line player.
It's the position manned by Rob Gronkowski in O'Brien's Patriots offenses. It's also worth noting Greg Cosell drew a poor man's Gronk comparison after watching Fiedorowicz's game tape. Whereas in other offenses "in-line" tight ends focus on blocking and are lightly used in the passing game, O'Brien has been aggressive feeding his in-line tight ends targets. Fiedorowicz's primary competition for starting snaps will be sophomore Ryan Griffin. Garrett Graham will play the "F" or "move" tight end role in O'Brien's attack.
Source: houstontexans.com
May 27 - 12:06 PM
FUBAR
Footballguy
Concept Coop said:
was thinking about the same. Seems to me (and I could be wrong) that the burner types fall off the cliff earlier than the slower possession types. Gonzo was a phenomenal athlete but not a burner. He's more athletic by far than Witten, but I think Sharpe seems pretty close.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Witten basically runs 5 yards down the field, turns around and boxes out the defender and catches the ballBeTheMatch said:
Adam Harstad
Moderator
I haven't seen any comprehensive research on the subject, but in baseball, I believe it's been found that "speed players" age better than guys who don't rely on their speed, because there's a minimum speed threshold necessary to play in the majors and "burners" can lose more steps while remaining above that threshold. Anecdotally, guys like Charlie Joiner, Joey Galloway, and Drew Hill suggest that speedsters are more than capable of hanging around for quite some time in the NFL.Concept Coop said:
Actually, this strikes me as a good idea for a research project.
Todd Andrews
Footballguy
Anyone think Levine Twirlilooloo might break out down in Atlanta? He appears to be set as the starter and I think he may not get a lot of passes but that a lot of them may be in the redzone because he is 6'8".
EBF
Footballguy
I watched him a lot in college. Doesn't run well. Doesn't move well. Basically just a tall guy. I think a Fauria type of season is the best you can hope for.
Anything can happen, but it would be a big surprise to me if he had a meaningful FF career.
FUBAR
Footballguy
Galloway is an aberration.I haven't seen any comprehensive research on the subject, but in baseball, I believe it's been found that "speed players" age better than guys who don't rely on their speed, because there's a minimum speed threshold necessary to play in the majors and "burners" can lose more steps while remaining above that threshold. Anecdotally, guys like Charlie Joiner, Joey Galloway, and Drew Hill suggest that speedsters are more than capable of hanging around for quite some time in the NFL.Concept Coop said:
Actually, this strikes me as a good idea for a research project.
Seriously, how many guys have their best seasons (yardage) at 34 and 35 and another 1,000 yard season after that? While only have 3 1,000 yard seasons before that.
Adam Harstad
Moderator
Everyone who has 1,000 yards at age 35 or later is an aberration. I also mentioned Charlie Joiner, who had 18+ ypr through age 31 and yet still lasted forever, and Drew Hill, who had 19.4 ypr through age 31 and still lasted to 37, with a pair of 1k seasons (and twice setting his career high in receptions) at age 34 and 35.Galloway is an aberration.I haven't seen any comprehensive research on the subject, but in baseball, I believe it's been found that "speed players" age better than guys who don't rely on their speed, because there's a minimum speed threshold necessary to play in the majors and "burners" can lose more steps while remaining above that threshold. Anecdotally, guys like Charlie Joiner, Joey Galloway, and Drew Hill suggest that speedsters are more than capable of hanging around for quite some time in the NFL.Concept Coop said:
Actually, this strikes me as a good idea for a research project.
Seriously, how many guys have their best seasons (yardage) at 34 and 35 and another 1,000 yard season after that? While only have 3 1,000 yard seasons before that.
Edit: James Lofton had 1000 yards at 18+ ypr at age 35. Hank Ellard had 3400 receiving yards at nearly 19 yards per reception at ages 33, 34, and 35 (topping 1k each season). Add in the fact that Jerry Rice began his career as a deep threat, and that's 5 of the 12 players in history to top 1,000 yards at age 35 or later (not including Joiner, who didn't top 1k, but twice topped 900 and had 3600 receiving yards after his 35th birthday).
Again, it's rare for ANYONE to get 1,000 yards at 35 or later, but of the exceptional freaks who have managed the feat, deep threats and burners are quite well represented.
Last edited by a moderator:
Adam Harstad
Moderator
Another way to look at it:
Of all the 1k receiving seasons by a player 35 or older:
25% (4/16) averaged 17+ ypr
44% (7/16) averaged 15+ ypr
Of all the 1k receiving seasons by a player age 33-34:
19% (7/37) averaged 17+ ypr
41% (15/37) averaged 15+ ypr
Of all the 1k receiving seasons by a player age 31-32:
15% (11/71) averaged 17+ ypr
39% (28/71) averaged 15+ ypr
Of all the 1k receiving seasons by a player age 30:
8% (4/49) averaged 17+ ypr
31% (15/49) averaged 15+ ypr
The two simplest ways to interpret that data are that either receivers get faster / become more of a deep threat as they age, or that the players who are naturally faster / bigger deep threats will age better than players who are not.
Of all the 1k receiving seasons by a player 35 or older:
25% (4/16) averaged 17+ ypr
44% (7/16) averaged 15+ ypr
Of all the 1k receiving seasons by a player age 33-34:
19% (7/37) averaged 17+ ypr
41% (15/37) averaged 15+ ypr
Of all the 1k receiving seasons by a player age 31-32:
15% (11/71) averaged 17+ ypr
39% (28/71) averaged 15+ ypr
Of all the 1k receiving seasons by a player age 30:
8% (4/49) averaged 17+ ypr
31% (15/49) averaged 15+ ypr
The two simplest ways to interpret that data are that either receivers get faster / become more of a deep threat as they age, or that the players who are naturally faster / bigger deep threats will age better than players who are not.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
These numbers don't sound right. Mind sharing the raw data?
Also, 17YPC is not a sound cutoff. Even among the fastest--17 is an outlier.
Also, 17YPC is not a sound cutoff. Even among the fastest--17 is an outlier.
Last edited by a moderator:
Adam Harstad
Moderator
They didn't sound right to me, either, but there they are. I started data diving expecting to see a gradual dropoff in the percentage of "deep" seasons, or in the very best case to see the ratio hold relatively constant. I was as surprised as anyone to see that the percentage of "deep" seasons actually increased as we got into older cohorts, and without a more rigorous look at the data, I can't rule out the possibility of some sort of confounding variable (such as time, as 1k seasons have become much more common recently). With that said, it seems there's enough evidence to at the very least be skeptical of the notion that "speed" receivers age worse than "slow" receivers.
Anyway, here's the data:
Age 35+ data
Age 33-34 data
Age 31-32 data
Age 30 data
The 17ypr / 15ypr values were not chosen truly randomly, I picked them because they seemed like natural breakpoints in the data. While 17 YPR is a bit of an outlier today, over the entire course of NFL history, it certainly was not. Like I said, Charlie Joiner had a YPR average of over 18 for the first decade of his career.
If you'd rather, though, we can run the numbers at different values. For instance, at 16ypr, the data goes 25% > 27% > 21% > 16% as you go down the age groups (i.e. arranged from oldest receivers to youngest receivers). At 18ypr, it goes from 13% > 11% > 7% > 4%. If you look at the percentage of 1k seasons that came from players with less than 14 ypr, the percentages go from 38% > 43% > 44% > 49%. The share of players with less than 12 YPR goes from 0% > 5% > 13% > 10%. In each and every case, the share of players with a "high" YPR gets bigger and the share of players with a "low" YPR gets smaller as the population ages.
If anyone's interested, I can dump those numbers into a spreadsheet and calculate the (unweighted and weighted) population-wide YPR average for all 1,000 yard receivers at each age, but given the clear and consistent trends throughout the data, I have no reason to believe that they will do anything except further confirm what we've already discovered- the older a group of receivers, the deeper their average receptions.
Edit: This will not be my last look at this subject, either. I have another idea to try when I get a nice block of free time to data-dive.
Last edited by a moderator:
Adam Harstad
Moderator
Alright, I ran some data. I won't get too far into it, since I plan on spinning it into an article, but the basic breakdown is that I looked at the most productive WRs through age 30, broke them into high-YPR, average-YPR, and low-YPR groups, and then compared the groups' post-30 production against each other. The middle group produced the highest average post-30 value (measured both by median and mean), edging the highest average guys by about 200 yards. The worst group- by far- was the "low average" group, which produced averages (both median and mean) of over 1000 yards below any other group.
Part of the difference between groups was simply survivorship bias- every single player in the middle group continued playing past 31, while about 13% of the "high ypr" group and 33% of the "low ypr" group never played a single game after their age-30 season. If you remove all players from the data who never played a game at age 31 or later, the averages for each group push a bit closer together. In fact, the deep threats edge just a touch past the average WRs in the new adjusted median and mean values, while the low-YPR receivers still lag clearly behind.
Conclusions? Really fast receivers age better than really slow receivers, as long as you accept YPR as a proxy for speed, but middle-of-the-pack receivers age best of all. If you account for survivorship bias (i.e. Chris Collinsworth and Tony Hill tanking their averages), the deep threats actually pull slightly ahead and have the most productive post-age-31 careers of the entire group.
Obviously this isn't determinative, and this was only looking at WRs (because we simply haven't had enough good receiving TEs in history for them to do anything except skew the sample). There's really no way to tell how this will translate to the TE position. Jason Witten has to hope that it won't translate well, though, because among players with 6000 yards receiving through age 30, only Marshall Faulk had a lower YPR average than Witten (Welker checks in just a few hundredths of a yard per reception ahead). Luckily for Witten's sake, Gonzalez ranks just one spot ahead of that, and he seems to have held up to the ravages of time just fine.
Still, there is definitely at least some cause for concern that Jason Witten simply doesn't have the raw speed to afford losing a step and still remain an NFL-viable receiver.
Bruce Hammond
Footballguy
I have him in a couple leagues and receive more trade inquiries about him than any of my other players. Owners are definitely paying attention to the buzz on this guy.kb488 said:I think his price is solidly a TE2 now... I blame rotoworld's clippings.Noah Davis said:I'm hoping he is there late....potential for picking up a TE1 at a TE2/3 price
ZWK
Footballguy
Concept Coop
Footballguy
I agree. Not to backpedal, as your data certainly suggests that I was wrong in my more broad stance--but as it applies to Witten, I think we'd need to remove the WRs from the data. NFL WRs have to beat NFL CBs. Losing a step is a major issue. Jason Witten simply needs to beat NFL zones. He has an uncanny ability to create a gap in coverage--the open area of the field where the LB is passing him off to the safety. In man coverage--he's too crisp for LBs (has never been too fast), and too big for safeties. When he loses a step (I haven't seen it), I don't expect that to change.
saintfool
Dead sexy
the fact that KC did next to nothing to upgrade their WR corps would make a person think Kelce will get opportunities. i know they kind of replaced McCluster through the draft but there has to be another person to help. Smith likes to throw the underneath routes - I'm being a little charitable when I say that - but it's as much there hasn't been anyone other than Charles to target. Bowe is their sole downfield threat and is likely covered accordingly. there is room for a player like Kelce who can get off the line and quickly find that soft spot in the coverage (zone or man).I have him in a couple leagues and receive more trade inquiries about him than any of my other players. Owners are definitely paying attention to the buzz on this guy.kb488 said:I think his price is solidly a TE2 now... I blame rotoworld's clippings.Noah Davis said:
Last edited by a moderator:
Adam Harstad
Moderator
I agree that WR data isn't really applicable to a TE like Witten. We don't really have a lot of historical comps to suggest how he might age, and even the practice of finding historical comps is necessarily an imprecise one; comparisons are suggestive, but not conclusive, or else Jerry Rice never could have existed. Every outlier, by definition, defied his historical comparisons.Concept Coop said:
My main contention is that Witten's lack of speed is either negative or neutral. I don't think the fact that he has made his living on craft and guile can be spun into a positive regarding his value going forward. My secondary contention is that the end often comes quickly and unexpectedly, and I would be unsurprised if age caught up to Witten without any warning within the next season or two. With that in mind, it's worth holding on to Escobar just to see.
Noah Davis
Footballguy
My current predicament is I have both Kelce and Gronk for 3 additional years....trying to figure out if I need to pony up and snag a 3rd TE for a band-aid to start the season.Bruce Hammond said:I have him in a couple leagues and receive more trade inquiries about him than any of my other players. Owners are definitely paying attention to the buzz on this guy.kb488 said:I think his price is solidly a TE2 now... I blame rotoworld's clippings.Noah Davis said:
Concept Coop
Footballguy
Going back to something you said, and I agree with: #### happens. I'd just want to invest my roster spots in RBs and WRs where #### happens more often, and the payoff is bigger and/or easier to project. In other words--if my RB dart ends up in a 20 touch role, I can count on RB2 numbers--something very valuable in most formats. If Escobar ends up the starting TE for the Cowboys--I have no idea what I have. I'd be lucky to get top 10-12 numbers, and even then, was the payoff worth it?
Just my thoughts--and they are of course based on my league formats, and not universal.
EBF
Footballguy
Where did this sudden wave of Kelce hype come from? He was a decent prospect last season, but he played in one game as a rookie and had a microfracture surgery on his knee. Even if he's destined to become a good player, it likely won't happen this season. He's essentially a rookie.
Adam Harstad
Moderator
Yeah, the payoff is better at RB and WR, but the quality of prospect available on the wire is generally much worse. In a lot of leagues, by the time you get to the point where owners are questioning whether or not they want to roster Escobar, the RB group is generally picked so clean that the other choices available are 3rd stringers or 28-year-old backups.
If only 12-18 TEs are rostered in the league, Escobar's probably droppable. In leagues with 20+ TEs rostered, Escobar is very much worth owning.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Ladarius green seems to be overrated. I don't see how you can extrapolate this great player from his limited production
EBF
Footballguy
Wasn't that all true last year too? I don't remember him getting so much hype back then, though he did go fairly high (mid-late 2nd) in most of my rookie drafts.
I had him in one 1.5 PPR for TE league and traded him for Mike Williams a couple months ago. Then the new owner turned around and traded him for Gates and a 2015 1st (dev league). I had previously offered him to a different owner for Pitta straight up with no luck. Wish I had known he had some believers out there. I would've tried to get a lot more for him.
Just wondering why all of a sudden there is excitement for him again. His rookie year was a disaster. He already had a reputation for being brittle and now the microfracture to boot. Are people pumping him up on Twitter and/or did one of the prominent FF sites run a hype piece for him? It just seems like all of a sudden there's a buzz growing.
Similar threads
