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Was Nixon really a bad president? (Offshoot of Rank the prez thread) (1 Viewer)

seriously though Nixon destroy, completely destroyed any confidence or respect the American public had in the Presidency

maybe for all time
I strongly disagree with that. There was a culmination of a lot of things that happened to this country in the 60's and 70's that all kinda hit at the same time when it comes to people supporting the government. But I think that for the most part, there is still a great deal of respect for the Presidency. At least, there isn't that much less then their was in our history. Again, we focus way way too much on the modern times of our political history. Almost every attack made on Bush was made on Washington and Adams and Jefferson.

 
I liked a lot of Nixon did. One or two more votes in the Senate and we'd have a BIG today. If Teddy Kennedy didn't want to make hay over medical care so he could run on it and we already have single payer. Kennedy admitted as much not long before he died. But you can't ignore the elephant that is Watergate.

 
seriously though Nixon destroy, completely destroyed any confidence or respect the American public had in the Presidency

maybe for all time
I strongly disagree with that. There was a culmination of a lot of things that happened to this country in the 60's and 70's that all kinda hit at the same time when it comes to people supporting the government. But I think that for the most part, there is still a great deal of respect for the Presidency. At least, there isn't that much less then their was in our history. Again, we focus way way too much on the modern times of our political history. Almost every attack made on Bush was made on Washington and Adams and Jefferson.
Even worse.

Things got ugly fast. Jefferson's camp accused President Adams of having a "hideous hermaphroditical character, which has neither the force and firmness of a man, nor the gentleness and sensibility of a woman."

In return, Adams' men called Vice President Jefferson "a mean-spirited, low-lived fellow, the son of a half-breed Indian squaw, sired by a Virginia mulatto father."

As the slurs piled on, Adams was labeled a fool, a hypocrite, a criminal, and a tyrant, while Jefferson was branded a weakling, an atheist, a libertine, and a coward.
I mean can you even imagine what would happen today if a candidate went that far? Atwater was a piker.

 
Reading through the thread it's a pretty quick default for most (but not all) people to drop Nixon to the bottom of the list. If not the bottom then close to it. Nixon ends up at the bottom of lots of presidential rankings. However, when I read about the Watergate scandal I wonder if any of the last 3 presidents would have survived office in the same moral climate with the same press in 1974. If Watergate happened now I just don't see it reaching the president. The scandals that have been ignored by the press and the American people in the last 3 administrations seem to outweigh what happened then.

I was only 2 when Nixon resigned and like most people all I've ever heard or been taught about Nixon was either related to Vietnam or Watergate. But a quick google search showed a few things he accomplished...

Although he escalated Vietnam he also ended the war. (Probably a plus for some and a negative for others)

He visited China and opened up diplomatic relations with China in '72

Initiate the ABMT with the Soviets

Pushed forward New Federalism principles to move power back to states and local reps

Initiated first huge federal effort for Cancer research (Sickle Cell also)

Enforced desegregation of Southern Schools

Established the EPA, supporting Clean Air Act and OSHA

First president to balance the federal budget

So this is a quick search, I'm certainly not a Nixon historian or even advocate. I'm sure someone can post just as long of a list even without including Watergate of the things he did wrong, everything is looked at through partisan lenses by just about everyone.

I'm just wondering if he gets a bad shake for a scandal what would have been buried, denied, and minimized by his supporters in this day and age and probably would have been something his opponents complained about but didn't damage his presidency. If that were the case, looking at his other accomplishments how would he be looked at as a president?
Good post. But I have to pick a nit here; Eisenhower was the only Republican President holding office with balanced budgets. 1956 and 1957

 
I've read a lot about Nixon over the years.

I do think he had some pretty deep character flaws, but I really think that aside from those... basically he just got caught playing some dirty politics... er men in power in this country have probably done much worse, just not gotten caught. [\b]

I think he was a good politician and foreign policy man overall. The kind of guy who got a lot of crap done... but just wasn't loved or popular...

It could have gone a lot differently and better for him if he'd just beaten Kennedy like he should have and had his 8 year run from 60 to 68
Sure, when you compare him to mayors, governors and congressman. But do you honestly think you could name one President as dishonest or corrupt? No way.
I don't think particularly highly of Nixon, but if you don't think Clinton was EVERY BIT as dishonest and corrupt as him you are partisan and/or delusional.

 
One of the most fascinating things about Nixon is how many key events he was involved in BEFORE he was President:

Algier Hiss

Helen Douglas

Checkers Speech

Venezuela

Kitchen confrontation

1960 election

I highly recommend Stephen Ambrose's 3 volume biography. Whatever you think of Nixon, he is IMO the most fascinating American political figure of the 20th century.

 
Since we mentioned dirty campaigns if anyone is interested they should check out the mudslinging for the 1828 election. John Quincy Adams was called a pimp and Andrew Jackson's wife was called a slut while his mother was called a British whore. Historians still refer to it as the dirtiest campaign in US history.

 
One of the most fascinating things about Nixon is how many key events he was involved in BEFORE he was President:

Algier Hiss

Helen Douglas

Checkers Speech

Venezuela

Kitchen confrontation

1960 election

I highly recommend Stephen Ambrose's 3 volume biography. Whatever you think of Nixon, he is IMO the most fascinating American political figure of the 20th century.
add the 1962 California gubernatorial election to your list. It's pretty rare for a national figure like Nixon to get beaten badly in a statewide race. It's even rarer for someone to come back from that.

 
I've read a lot about Nixon over the years.

I do think he had some pretty deep character flaws, but I really think that aside from those... basically he just got caught playing some dirty politics... er men in power in this country have probably done much worse, just not gotten caught. [\b]

I think he was a good politician and foreign policy man overall. The kind of guy who got a lot of crap done... but just wasn't loved or popular...

It could have gone a lot differently and better for him if he'd just beaten Kennedy like he should have and had his 8 year run from 60 to 68
Sure, when you compare him to mayors, governors and congressman. But do you honestly think you could name one President as dishonest or corrupt? No way.
I don't think particularly highly of Nixon, but if you don't think Clinton was EVERY BIT as dishonest and corrupt as him you are partisan and/or delusional.
I think people with this mindset might want to read up on all of the illegal things Nixon really did. Add the morally bankrupt part to it and you should get the picture.

 
British historian Paul Johnson, in his book Modern Times, has a very different take on Watergate. He argues that both Kennedy and LBJ were involved in far worse activities involving wire-tapping, breaking into opposition headquarters, using the IRS to harass opponents, etc. But Nixon got exposed because the press hated his guts.

Johnson, a conservative, is actually quite critical of Nixon's presidency for a number of issues, principally because Nixon was the most leftist, collectivist chief of state America had had up to that point. But he thinks the whole Watergate thing was totally bogus.
JFK wasn't legitimately elected in the first place. Nixon's shenanigans were against a guy he beat like 70-30. JFK's shenanigans stole the presidency.

 
British historian Paul Johnson, in his book Modern Times, has a very different take on Watergate. He argues that both Kennedy and LBJ were involved in far worse activities involving wire-tapping, breaking into opposition headquarters, using the IRS to harass opponents, etc. But Nixon got exposed because the press hated his guts.

Johnson, a conservative, is actually quite critical of Nixon's presidency for a number of issues, principally because Nixon was the most leftist, collectivist chief of state America had had up to that point. But he thinks the whole Watergate thing was totally bogus.
JFK wasn't legitimately elected in the first place. Nixon's shenanigans were against a guy he beat like 70-30. JFK's shenanigans stole the presidency.
There's a difference between political shenanigans performed by a campaign staff or Daley machine operatives in Illinois vs. activities carried out under the direction of a sitting President issuing orders from within the Oval Office.

 
British historian Paul Johnson, in his book Modern Times, has a very different take on Watergate. He argues that both Kennedy and LBJ were involved in far worse activities involving wire-tapping, breaking into opposition headquarters, using the IRS to harass opponents, etc. But Nixon got exposed because the press hated his guts.

Johnson, a conservative, is actually quite critical of Nixon's presidency for a number of issues, principally because Nixon was the most leftist, collectivist chief of state America had had up to that point. But he thinks the whole Watergate thing was totally bogus.
JFK wasn't legitimately elected in the first place. Nixon's shenanigans were against a guy he beat like 70-30. JFK's shenanigans stole the presidency.
There's a difference between political shenanigans performed by a campaign staff or Daley machine operatives in Illinois vs. activities carried out under the direction of a sitting President issuing orders from within the Oval Office.
This.

Fact is the Kennedy campaign was a well-oiled machine. They made Nixon's camp seem like amateurs. And really, does anybody think JFK could or would or should stop Daley from delivering Chicago?

 
if someone wants to argue that having to step down from being president because of illegal activity makes you a bad president, you may not agree but it is really hard to fault that logic

so if people don;t automatically put him near the bottom that is fine, but automatically putting him near the bottom for that reason alone IS a perfectly reasonable position

 
I've read a lot about Nixon over the years.

I do think he had some pretty deep character flaws, but I really think that aside from those... basically he just got caught playing some dirty politics... er men in power in this country have probably done much worse, just not gotten caught. [\b]

I think he was a good politician and foreign policy man overall. The kind of guy who got a lot of crap done... but just wasn't loved or popular...

It could have gone a lot differently and better for him if he'd just beaten Kennedy like he should have and had his 8 year run from 60 to 68
Sure, when you compare him to mayors, governors and congressman. But do you honestly think you could name one President as dishonest or corrupt? No way.
I don't think particularly highly of Nixon, but if you don't think Clinton was EVERY BIT as dishonest and corrupt as him you are partisan and/or delusional.
I think people with this mindset might want to read up on all of the illegal things Nixon really did. Add the morally bankrupt part to it and you should get the picture.
I think people with this mindset might want to read up on all of the illegal things Clinton really did. Add the morally bankrupt part to it and you should get the picture.

 
I'm not so naive to think that Nixon was the only President ever to engage in untoward activities. However he was the only one who was caught with enough evidence to force him to resign from office. That's a major part of his legacy that can't be rationalized or equivocated away.

His first term had enough accomplishments to probably rank him among the top half of 20th century Presidents. He was re-elected in a landslide. Presidencies are typically evaluated as a whole, not term by term. Saying Nixon had a good first term is like saying act I of "Our American Cousin" was a laugh riot.

 
NCCommish said:
Things got ugly fast. Jefferson's camp accused President Adams of having a "hideous hermaphroditical character, which has neither the force and firmness of a man, nor the gentleness and sensibility of a woman."

In return, Adams' men called Vice President Jefferson "a mean-spirited, low-lived fellow, the son of a half-breed Indian squaw, sired by a Virginia mulatto father."

As the slurs piled on, Adams was labeled a fool, a hypocrite, a criminal, and a tyrant, while Jefferson was branded a weakling, an atheist, a libertine, and a coward.
I mean can you even imagine what would happen today if a candidate went that far?
They'd become a tea party hero?

:rimshot:

 
Eephus said:
I'm not so naive to think that Nixon was the only President ever to engage in untoward activities. However he was the only one who was caught with enough evidence to force him to resign from office. That's a major part of his legacy that can't be rationalized or equivocated away.

His first term had enough accomplishments to probably rank him among the top half of 20th century Presidents. He was re-elected in a landslide. Presidencies are typically evaluated as a whole, not term by term. Saying Nixon had a good first term is like saying act I of "Our American Cousin" was a laugh riot.
So he should be at the bottom of the rankings because he was not smart enough to not get caught? (sorry double negative)

Now imagine he had the all powerful NSA with today's capabilities at his disposal and the shroud of secrecy that goes with it.

 
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I like that he installed recording devices in the White House to record himself saying hideous things about Jews and Blacks. Great guy.

 
Secret bombings, expanding the war in Vietnam ( nothing gained from 69-73), using government apparatus and agencies to discredit or attack those on his enemies list, expanding regulatory oversight to bloated unprecedented levels, flooding the money supply which increased inflation, expanding entitlements while shrinking the military...tell you what, leave Waterhate completely out of the discussion, and you're still left with despot. Lousy President.

China, detente, yada yada...OK, above average statesman. Terrible domestically, and his unpopular and senseless expansion of the war in Southeast Asia tore the country apart.
take out vietnam, this is the Obama presidency in a nutshell

 
Eephus said:
One of the most fascinating things about Nixon is how many key events he was involved in BEFORE he was President:

Algier Hiss

Helen Douglas

Checkers Speech

Venezuela

Kitchen confrontation

1960 election

I highly recommend Stephen Ambrose's 3 volume biography. Whatever you think of Nixon, he is IMO the most fascinating American political figure of the 20th century.
add the 1962 California gubernatorial election to your list. It's pretty rare for a national figure like Nixon to get beaten badly in a statewide race. It's even rarer for someone to come back from that.
i think the checkers speech might be one of the most amazing political speeches, ever

 
Secret bombings, expanding the war in Vietnam ( nothing gained from 69-73), using government apparatus and agencies to discredit or attack those on his enemies list, expanding regulatory oversight to bloated unprecedented levels, flooding the money supply which increased inflation, expanding entitlements while shrinking the military...tell you what, leave Waterhate completely out of the discussion, and you're still left with despot. Lousy President.

China, detente, yada yada...OK, above average statesman. Terrible domestically, and his unpopular and senseless expansion of the war in Southeast Asia tore the country apart.
take out vietnam, this is the Obama presidency in a nutshell
But under Obama, Americans are have been blessed with more freedoms. Gays can openly serve in the military and marry each other. Pot is now legal in two states. I can play online poker again. I thought we liked freedom? Remember Bush saying 'THEY HATE US FOR OUR FREEDOM'...well? Under Obama, we have more freedom. Right?

 
Secret bombings, expanding the war in Vietnam ( nothing gained from 69-73), using government apparatus and agencies to discredit or attack those on his enemies list, expanding regulatory oversight to bloated unprecedented levels, flooding the money supply which increased inflation, expanding entitlements while shrinking the military...tell you what, leave Waterhate completely out of the discussion, and you're still left with despot. Lousy President.

China, detente, yada yada...OK, above average statesman. Terrible domestically, and his unpopular and senseless expansion of the war in Southeast Asia tore the country apart.
take out vietnam, this is the Obama presidency in a nutshell
Really? I am no fan of Obama but can you point me to the enemies he has been proven to attack using government agencies? Or maybe you can point me to the shrinking military? Or perhaps the increasing inflation? Maybe you can show me the regulatory expansion that is so immense? Perhaps you can point out which military units are involved in secret bombing campaigns?

 
Secret bombings, expanding the war in Vietnam ( nothing gained from 69-73), using government apparatus and agencies to discredit or attack those on his enemies list, expanding regulatory oversight to bloated unprecedented levels, flooding the money supply which increased inflation, expanding entitlements while shrinking the military...tell you what, leave Waterhate completely out of the discussion, and you're still left with despot. Lousy President.

China, detente, yada yada...OK, above average statesman. Terrible domestically, and his unpopular and senseless expansion of the war in Southeast Asia tore the country apart.
take out vietnam, this is the Obama presidency in a nutshell
Really? I am no fan of Obama but can you point me to the enemies he has been proven to attack using government agencies? Or maybe you can point me to the shrinking military? Or perhaps the increasing inflation? Maybe you can show me the regulatory expansion that is so immense? Perhaps you can point out which military units are involved in secret bombing campaigns?
Twerking. Thanks Obama.

 
Secret bombings, expanding the war in Vietnam ( nothing gained from 69-73), using government apparatus and agencies to discredit or attack those on his enemies list, expanding regulatory oversight to bloated unprecedented levels, flooding the money supply which increased inflation, expanding entitlements while shrinking the military...tell you what, leave Waterhate completely out of the discussion, and you're still left with despot. Lousy President.

China, detente, yada yada...OK, above average statesman. Terrible domestically, and his unpopular and senseless expansion of the war in Southeast Asia tore the country apart.
take out vietnam, this is the Obama presidency in a nutshell
But under Obama, Americans are have been blessed with more freedoms. Gays can openly serve in the military and marry each other. Pot is now legal in two states. I can play online poker again. I thought we liked freedom? Remember Bush saying 'THEY HATE US FOR OUR FREEDOM'...well? Under Obama, we have more freedom. Right?
sure if you don't mind the NSA spying on you, the IRS going after enemies, and gov't controlling health care. Not to mention the TSA getttin all up in your ### at the airport, and 70 federal agencies having armed divsions now.

 
Secret bombings, expanding the war in Vietnam ( nothing gained from 69-73), using government apparatus and agencies to discredit or attack those on his enemies list, expanding regulatory oversight to bloated unprecedented levels, flooding the money supply which increased inflation, expanding entitlements while shrinking the military...tell you what, leave Waterhate completely out of the discussion, and you're still left with despot. Lousy President.

China, detente, yada yada...OK, above average statesman. Terrible domestically, and his unpopular and senseless expansion of the war in Southeast Asia tore the country apart.
take out vietnam, this is the Obama presidency in a nutshell
But under Obama, Americans are have been blessed with more freedoms. Gays can openly serve in the military and marry each other. Pot is now legal in two states. I can play online poker again. I thought we liked freedom? Remember Bush saying 'THEY HATE US FOR OUR FREEDOM'...well? Under Obama, we have more freedom. Right?
sure if you don't mind the NSA spying on you, the IRS going after enemies, and gov't controlling health care. Not to mention the TSA getttin all up in your ### at the airport, and 70 federal agencies having armed divsions now.
The IRS checked to see if organizations were breaking the ambiguous law. And they went after people on both sides of the aisle. The only people refused were liberal organizations. You really want to bring up this stupid non-issue again?

 
Yes, Nixon was a bad president.

This was an easy one.

It would be good if people considered what's happened to the imperial presidency since him though.

It's a contradiction - presidents have vastly more powers now but at the same time there is an emphasis on plausible deniability. It's not a good mode of government.

 
So the first link I click on says inflation is 1.5%. Are you really trying to compare that to 6.1% under Nixon? Really?And drone strikes are now secret? Since when? You need to try a lot harder than this crap.

 
Nixon wasn't to blame for high inflation and Obama shouldn't receive credit for low inflation. Some things are beyond the President's control.

 
So the first link I click on says inflation is 1.5%. Are you really trying to compare that to 6.1% under Nixon? Really?And drone strikes are now secret? Since when? You need to try a lot harder than this crap.
take your time, read it all. i know you don't want to, but might enlighten you a little as to why i think this guy sucks so bad

 
So the first link I click on says inflation is 1.5%. Are you really trying to compare that to 6.1% under Nixon? Really?And drone strikes are now secret? Since when? You need to try a lot harder than this crap.
take your time, read it all. i know you don't want to, but might enlighten you a little as to why i think this guy sucks so bad
Not sure about that dude, just got done meeting with my financial guy and my 401k is up 22% and my other IRAs are in the upper teens. Thanks Obama

 
So the first link I click on says inflation is 1.5%. Are you really trying to compare that to 6.1% under Nixon? Really?And drone strikes are now secret? Since when? You need to try a lot harder than this crap.
take your time, read it all. i know you don't want to, but might enlighten you a little as to why i think this guy sucks so bad
Good thing you still have cash to lose to Otis.

 
“Always give your best. Never get discouraged, never be petty. Always remember, others may hate you, but those who hate you don’t win unless you hate them, and then you destroy yourself.” - Aug 9, 1974

 
Second worst president ever after Andrew Johnson.

Broke the law, lied, the birth of the imperial presidency, secret bombings, Cambodia, Laos, in short a disgrace.

 
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The POS is responsible for every single American death in Vietnam between 1968 and the end of the war. He should have been executed for treason.

http://truth-out.org/progressivepicks/item/13994-how-richard-nixon-sabotaged-1968-vietnam-peace-talks-to-get-elected-president

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/nixon-prolonged-vietnam-war-for-political-gainand-johnson-knew-about-it-newly-unclassified-tapes-suggest-3595441/?no-ist

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-21768668

It begins in the summer of 1968. Nixon feared a breakthrough at the Paris Peace talks designed to find a negotiated settlement to the Vietnam war, and he knew this would derail his campaign.He therefore set up a clandestine back-channel involving Anna Chennault, a senior campaign adviser.

At a July meeting in Nixon's New York apartment, the South Vietnamese ambassador was told Chennault represented Nixon and spoke for the campaign. If any message needed to be passed to the South Vietnamese president, Nguyen Van Thieu, it would come via Chennault.

In late October 1968 there were major concessions from Hanoi which promised to allow meaningful talks to get underway in Paris - concessions that would justify Johnson calling for a complete bombing halt of North Vietnam. This was exactly what Nixon feared.

[SIZE=1.077em]Chennault was despatched to the South Vietnamese embassy with a clear message: the South Vietnamese government should withdraw from the talks, refuse to deal with Johnson, and if Nixon was elected, they would get a much better deal.[/SIZE]

So on the eve of his planned announcement of a halt to the bombing, Johnson learned the South Vietnamese were pulling out.
 
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