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Disturbing video with parents' reaction to son coming out as gay (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter gianmarco
- Start date
El Floppo
Footballguy
I provided you with anecotal evidence of why I believe what I believe.
How did you come up with your assumption? You have provided no evidence of anything for where this has epiphany come from...or did it just pop in your brain out of thin air. An assumption based on fantasy?
fatness
Footballguy
bigbottom
Footballguy
Let's start with the testimony of the countless gay people who say they've been gay for as long as they can remember, were born that way, and it's not a choice.
The burden of proof now shifts to you. Prove that each of them are testifying falsely.
G
Guest
Guest
Your whole shtick is that you demand that people have a more open mind towards you, but are unable or unwilling to demonstrate remotely close to the same towards others.
G
Guest
Guest
Autocorrect. Gayness =Maurile Tremblay said:
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Getting back to the video for a minute. It is odd that the Mom says that she had known her son was gay since he was a tiny little boy and the kid agrees saying that he was born that way. Then she says no, God didn't make him that way and that he made the choice to be gay.
How does a tiny little boy choose to be gay?
How does a tiny little boy choose to be gay?
shader
Footballguy
What about the gay or bi people who realized it as a teenager or made the choice?
I think there isn't an easy answer and the ol "but lots of gay people say they've always felt that way" is a little misleading,, as there are many who haven't.
bigbottom
Footballguy
I agree that there are gay people who weren't born that way (stated this upthread). Em's assertion is that none of them were born that way. My assertion is that many were. I'm talking about those people.
G
Guest
Guest
Not all opinions are created equal. I found your view that a gay man chooses to be gay, and is therefore a failure as a man, to be contemptible. I trust the testimony of one in those shoes over you, and evaluate the character of that person on merit, as I would anyone else. To pre-judge and make assumptions otherwise based on a gut feeling has proven to be a harmful approach.Eminence said:
My contempt for you is born from experience with people I know/have known that would dunk so easily on you as a human being, it's laughable. And they are/were gay and would tell you (if you cared to listen, which you don't), that it was never a choice.
Is this a thread about Eminence? Did I share my opinions negatively about people I disagreed with?
El Floppo
Footballguy
I'll definitely keep an open mind to it- but I haven't met any gay people who have said that they made a choice. Some made a choice to try to not be gay- date women, marry women, have families... only to eventually come back to being gay because- according to them- they always knew they were gay, but felt that it was wrong (from family/society/etc) so tried not to be.
That said- I've never discussed this with somebody actively bi. I've talked with gay men and women about it who used to be bi... but it was always the same idea as the married person- they always knew they were gay, but chose to try out hetero for various reasons.
El Floppo
Footballguy
how many gay people have you talked to about this?
and again- where are you getting your ideas from? I keep asking, because they run counter to everything I know and so far have been presented as completely baseless opinion... plus, as Ham has said... mean-spirited and offensive (contemptible).
the definitive science isn't there yet (as far as I know) to "prove" choice or biology- so I choose to base my opinion on the matter from real life testimonial from friends and colleagues. Could these men and women from all over the world ALL be lying to me in some kind of tinfoil hat syndrome that spans the days before the internet?
bigbottom
Footballguy
shader
Footballguy
Gotcha. My fault for not reading.
Personally, I have no idea whether it's possible to be born gay. Most of us only remember bits and pieces of our lives in the first 4-5 years. So I think relying on anecdotal "I was born gay" comments is not sufficient for me one way or the other.
El Floppo
Footballguy
it's definitely not science, but I am more than ready to accept it if I keep hearing the same story over and over again. an I accept it also because I can remember my earliest jumpy and quo thoughts being about girls- it never occurred to me that boys could even be attracted to boys until I first heard what 'gay' was. the reverse was true for my gay friends. eta: except that they were told over and over that they were supposed to be attracted to the opposite sex.
do you think being straight is a choice?
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shader
Footballguy
How many gay people have any of us REALLY talked to. 2% of men self-identify as gay, right? Do most people have 100 really solid friends and colleagues over the course of a career? 200? 300? Unless a person is seriously nosy and doesn't mind jumping in whenever they meet a gay person to ask them why they are gay, I can't imagine that you would closely associate with more than 5-6 gay people over the course of 20-30 years, although that could easily vary among people who worked with or associated with groups of gay people in some capacity.
timschochet
Footballguy
Have you ever met a gay person who agrees with you, Eminence? Actually, have you ever met a gay person? Do you hVe any gay friends?
fatness
Footballguy
When several people here are telling you their conversations with gay people they've known, I don't get why you're asking these things.
El Floppo
Footballguy
"you" being "one" here, and not specifically me, correct?
for specifically me- hundreds, if not thousands over the years. roommates, close circle of friends, and lots and lots of school/work colleagues (I'm an architect, wife is a fashion designer) like I said- I stopped having this conversation (which usually began organically, not me nosing in) after the 20th or so time because the answer was always- always- the same. And fwiw- I'd only have this conversation with people I considered friends- not random work colleagues.
That doesn't mean that there are gay men and women out there who figured it out later and chose it... but I have yet to meet those people and won't base my own opinion on that hypothetical.
And for me- if being gay is a choice, that means being straight is a choice as well; I haven't seen an argument made yet to dissuade from that, although I'm open to it. I don't remember ever choosing to not be gay and be straight instead. You? Anybody else?
Rayderr
Footballguy
I really don't get why it's such a big deal if a person was born gay, chose to be gay, or ended up gay because of how they were raised. (personally I suspect there are some in all of those groups)
Either way, it's still a person that finds the same sex attractive. Not sure how that harms anyone. And as long as the sex between the parties involved is consensual, who cares if it's MF, MM, FF, MT, FT, TT, etc. Why are people so freaking concerned about what other people are doing in their bedrooms?
Either way, it's still a person that finds the same sex attractive. Not sure how that harms anyone. And as long as the sex between the parties involved is consensual, who cares if it's MF, MM, FF, MT, FT, TT, etc. Why are people so freaking concerned about what other people are doing in their bedrooms?
Green and Gold
Footballguy
I agree with El Floppo. I don't remember choosing to be attracted to women, I just am. I assume it's the same for gay people. 
Rayderr
Footballguy
There was a big controversy a few years ago when Cynthia Nixon (The red head from Sex and The City. The one that looks like Dave Foley.) announced that she chose to be gay. But what does it matter if they chose to be or not?I agree with El Floppo. I don't remember choosing to be attracted to women, I just am. I assume it's the same for gay people.
timschochet
Footballguy
Because the more gay people, the bigger Eminence's burden to procreate.
Rayderr
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
we're talking about Eminence having children. Do you really WANT to improve his chances ?
World need ditch diggers, but with the way the world is going now, by the time they are working, they'll probably have to sneak into Mexico as illegal immigrants to take low paying jobs away from law-abiding Mexicans.
Rayderr
Footballguy
Cold Dead Hands
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
black gays are the best gays.
El Floppo
Footballguy
it doesn't... except in a conversation about whether gay people choose to be gay or not- which is what I thought I was a part of right there.There was a big controversy a few years ago when Cynthia Nixon (The red head from Sex and The City. The one that looks like Dave Foley.) announced that she chose to be gay. But what does it matter if they chose to be or not?I agree with El Floppo. I don't remember choosing to be attracted to women, I just am. I assume it's the same for gay people.
Rayderr
Footballguy
It's a pointless argument, tho. So time and energy get wasted on dealing with if it's biological, choice, or what not instead of what really matters. That people who are gay deserve to be treated the same way as other people. I'm not sure why people on both sides think that if it's a choice it destroys the argument for equal rights and treatment. It doesn't. We don't outlaw marriage because a person chooses to marry someone of a different race. We haven't rushed Christo off to be rehabilitated because he chooses to wank off to fat chicks. And have you ever heard someone say "Gays are immoral! They should be removed from society!! What? Oh, they're born that way? Oh, well then I guess they're cool."it doesn't... except in a conversation about whether gay people choose to be gay or not- which is what I thought I was a part of right there.There was a big controversy a few years ago when Cynthia Nixon (The red head from Sex and The City. The one that looks like Dave Foley.) announced that she chose to be gay. But what does it matter if they chose to be or not?I agree with El Floppo. I don't remember choosing to be attracted to women, I just am. I assume it's the same for gay people.
top dog
Footballguy
I haven't read the whole thread, but does it REALLY matter if it is a choice vs. born that way?
I'm sure this will come across as incoherent rambling, but I'll give it a shot anyway.
I love red heads.. I didn't always love red heads, but over the course of my life I now REALLY like red heads. I wasn't born that way. Does it really make a difference that I wasn't born loving red heads? That's what I REALLY like now!
I had this conversation with a friend who is in HR and a diversity leader for a fortune 400 company. He kept trying to get me to believe that gays were born that way. I just kept taking the stance that I wasn't convinced that every person who is gay was born gay, but it didn't make a difference to me. Why should that matter to me?
He got irritated with me.
So you want to be with someone of the same sex, great. Whatever.
I'm sure this will come across as incoherent rambling, but I'll give it a shot anyway.
I love red heads.. I didn't always love red heads, but over the course of my life I now REALLY like red heads. I wasn't born that way. Does it really make a difference that I wasn't born loving red heads? That's what I REALLY like now!
I had this conversation with a friend who is in HR and a diversity leader for a fortune 400 company. He kept trying to get me to believe that gays were born that way. I just kept taking the stance that I wasn't convinced that every person who is gay was born gay, but it didn't make a difference to me. Why should that matter to me?
He got irritated with me.
So you want to be with someone of the same sex, great. Whatever.
Well now I just feel stupid for wasting time and energy on the Innernet. :(It's a pointless argument, tho. So time and energy get wasted on dealing with if it's biological, choice, or what not instead of what really matters.it doesn't... except in a conversation about whether gay people choose to be gay or not- which is what I thought I was a part of right there.There was a big controversy a few years ago when Cynthia Nixon (The red head from Sex and The City. The one that looks like Dave Foley.) announced that she chose to be gay. But what does it matter if they chose to be or not?I agree with El Floppo. I don't remember choosing to be attracted to women, I just am. I assume it's the same for gay people.
timschochet
Footballguy
Actually there is IMO a reason why the question of choice is important. The majority of Americans are Christian, and Scripture condemns homosexuality as a sin. A sin, of course , implies that an action is voluntary. (at least logically it should, though many Christians believe we are all born in sin, which makes no sense, but that's a whole other topic).
So long as Christians believe that gayness is sinful, it not only provides moral justification for more overt homophobia, it also prevents society from regarding homosexuals with true equality. Only by convincing most Christians that it is not a choice for most gay people (and especially gay men) can we ever hope to change these attitudes.
So long as Christians believe that gayness is sinful, it not only provides moral justification for more overt homophobia, it also prevents society from regarding homosexuals with true equality. Only by convincing most Christians that it is not a choice for most gay people (and especially gay men) can we ever hope to change these attitudes.
Rayderr
Footballguy
El Floppo
Footballguy
yeah... Rayderr... this is why it can matter.
but I'm with you- born or chosen, it doesn't matter to me with whom, or how other consenting adults love or have sex with each other.
I know some people say this, but I think it is rooted in the concept that procreation should only be done to produce offspring - all other procreation is generally "sinful". So, I think it really comes down to finding homosexual sex to be sinful - not necessarily loving your same-sex neighbor (as taught by Jesus).
El Floppo
Footballguy
is that true?
seems to be a pretty common fall-back for the religious folk looking to not accept gays- that it was "chosen" by the gay person and not born into (which would imply- it seems- god's will).
shader
Footballguy
There is a problem. You shouldn't be able to get Christians to go against Scripture. So why would it be anyone's desire to "change these attitudes"? What are you the thought police?
Now in terms of gay marriage, laws regarding gay people, whatever. Who cares. Christians who fight against this and try to muddle in the personal affairs of gay people all across the country aren't acting like Christians, imo.
timschochet
Footballguy
There homophobes don't, I agree . But there are lots of religious people out there, probably millions, who aren't homophobic but who are troubled that by giving legal recognition to gay behavior they are violating God's will. These are the ones who can potentially be persuaded otherwise.
top dog
Footballguy
shader
Footballguy
If someone believes everything is God's will, than they have already turned a blind eye to logic, so I don't think they will see this as a problem.
butcher boy
Footballguy
How about we just get rid of Christianity? People who believe in God can start over with a new religion that doesn't have such screwed up social opinions.
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