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Walking on eggshells (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter pats3in4
- Start date
Zegras11
Footballguy
Glad things are getting better... Is there anything specific you did to resolve the part in bold?17seconds and (HULK)...
My wife and I found an MFT whose focus is Cognitive Behavior Therapy (CBT). We had a bunch of double-sessions (, but worth it) that we decided to stop at the end of May thanks to the progress we made. My wife has made a huge transformation. Her motto is now "You didn't make me angry, I make myself angry." She also has let go of so much control and expectations of things (and people...primarily our kids) and instead rolls with the punches when her preferred outcome doesn't happen. She's had some slips, but recovers much quicker than before and uses our therapy teachings as the basis of that recovery.
On my side, I've learned how to recognize anger as just anger...my motto when she blows up is, "She's not angry at you, she's just angry, period." By not taking her attacks personally, this helps immensely with engaging her to resolve the issue. I've also learned that by walking on eggshells around her, I was actually trying to control her behavior. In the past, I was afraid to bring up topics in anticipation of a blowup, so I wouldn't communicate fully with her. She could sense that I wasn't as communicative as a husband should be and this frustrated her and contributed to our cycle. Now if something needs to be said, I say it. If she gets upset, that's her reaction to it and not my doing and we'll work through that. But since she's taking her motto to heart, that shouldn't be a big problem going forward.
I didn't post an update since we stopped because I wanted to give this therapy some time before making any conclusions. Since the thread got bumped with a direct update request, I figured I'd share some info.
BTW, earlier in the thread someone inquired if going to therapy when things were "fine" was a good idea just to help reconnect in case things were getting stagnant in the marriage. I say yes. My wife and I got to the point of a flash fire that needed extinguishing, but maybe other marriages are suffering a slow burn that still could use some cooling off.
pats3in4
Footballguy
Just have to remind myself, "She's just lashing out. Don't take the pointed barbs personally." Usually we get so hung up on the attack and get angry ourselves with thoughts of, "What did I do to deserve this attack? She's overreacting! She's falsely accusing me! She's completely twisting all the facts! What a #####!" Then the fight or flight mechanism kicks in.Glad things are getting better... Is there anything specific you did to resolve the part in bold?17seconds and (HULK)...
My wife and I found an MFT whose focus is Cognitive Behavior Therapy (CBT). We had a bunch of double-sessions (
On my side, I've learned how to recognize anger as just anger...my motto when she blows up is, "She's not angry at you, she's just angry, period." By not taking her attacks personally, this helps immensely with engaging her to resolve the issue. I've also learned that by walking on eggshells around her, I was actually trying to control her behavior. In the past, I was afraid to bring up topics in anticipation of a blowup, so I wouldn't communicate fully with her. She could sense that I wasn't as communicative as a husband should be and this frustrated her and contributed to our cycle. Now if something needs to be said, I say it. If she gets upset, that's her reaction to it and not my doing and we'll work through that. But since she's taking her motto to heart, that shouldn't be a big problem going forward.
I didn't post an update since we stopped because I wanted to give this therapy some time before making any conclusions. Since the thread got bumped with a direct update request, I figured I'd share some info.
BTW, earlier in the thread someone inquired if going to therapy when things were "fine" was a good idea just to help reconnect in case things were getting stagnant in the marriage. I say yes. My wife and I got to the point of a flash fire that needed extinguishing, but maybe other marriages are suffering a slow burn that still could use some cooling off.
If she gets into attack mode, I usually respond with, "I see you're upset. Let's talk about this later when we're both in a better place.*" I leave it up to her to remember her motto and cool off. It's not my job to play therapist and remind her of what we learned together. Later, I'll approach her (or she'll approach me) and ask her if she wants to talk about it and then we're fine. If she's still upset, that's on her and I'll continue to give her space.
* If she spices the attack up with calling me names, I'll respond a little more pointedly with something like, "I see you're upset and you're calling me names which is definitely out of bounds. Let's talk..."
It's worked pretty well. We both have our parts to do, so she doesn't have a free pass to be perpetually angry while it's soley my job to cope better. We're both committed to doing our parts.
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![[icon]](/data/avatars/m/5/5167.jpg?1660313464){kind=avatar}
Mad Cow
Welshers and Dawdlers Beware!
There are some interesting things going on in this thread. I have some experience in seeing couples deal with therapists. As an LDS bishop, I see couples come in with regularity and will often have them seek therapy as part of it all. Now, I will say this as clearly as possible, and also acknowledge that this statement is based on my smaller sample size. However, I have noted that more often than not, a woman therapist tends to side with the wife frequently, leading to cessation of therapy out of frustration on the part of the husband. Male therapists, while having some initial resistance from the wife, tend to have had better results over time, in the sample size that I have seen. I would say that those I have seen tend to try to be overly conscientious of the 2 males vs 1 female dynamic. Again, just my 2 cents worth, but it has happened enough that it has been obvious to me. 
17seconds
root of all aliai
I think I detailed it before. When I met her she was finishing her master's degree and had a job as a publicist - she was 26. Prior to that she had been employed continually since she was 16. So I had a certain impression of her as a career person and I liked where she was going with that.
As soon as the wedding was imminent she quit her job. It wasn't for no reason, she hated the people there, but she quit. She never bothered trying to get another job. Said she was done with the office world and wanted to pursue her art as a business instead. She's been doing that for several years now. The last couple of years she was spending a lot on it but that has slowed down somewhat. It's usually a $6K writeoff every year ($8K in expenses, $2K in revenue). I would be totally fine if it was a hobby but she refuses to do that. She's convinced it can take off. I believe she has the talent but I just don't think the business side is there for it to ever support the family. I'd rather she get a part time job and give the art a shot on the side. When the kids are a little older, of course. We still have one in preschool.
Zegras11
Footballguy
Really cool stuff. Thanks... I've recently been blindsided by the new bold above twice in the last two weeks in sessions.Just have to remind myself, "She's just lashing out. Don't take the pointed barbs personally." Usually we get so hung up on the attack and get angry ourselves with thoughts of, "What did I do to deserve this attack? She's overreacting! She's falsely accusing me! She's completely twisting all the facts! What a #####!" Then the fight or flight mechanism kicks in.Glad things are getting better... Is there anything specific you did to resolve the part in bold?17seconds and (HULK)...
My wife and I found an MFT whose focus is Cognitive Behavior Therapy (CBT). We had a bunch of double-sessions (
On my side, I've learned how to recognize anger as just anger...my motto when she blows up is, "She's not angry at you, she's just angry, period." By not taking her attacks personally, this helps immensely with engaging her to resolve the issue. I've also learned that by walking on eggshells around her, I was actually trying to control her behavior. In the past, I was afraid to bring up topics in anticipation of a blowup, so I wouldn't communicate fully with her. She could sense that I wasn't as communicative as a husband should be and this frustrated her and contributed to our cycle. Now if something needs to be said, I say it. If she gets upset, that's her reaction to it and not my doing and we'll work through that. But since she's taking her motto to heart, that shouldn't be a big problem going forward.
I didn't post an update since we stopped because I wanted to give this therapy some time before making any conclusions. Since the thread got bumped with a direct update request, I figured I'd share some info.
BTW, earlier in the thread someone inquired if going to therapy when things were "fine" was a good idea just to help reconnect in case things were getting stagnant in the marriage. I say yes. My wife and I got to the point of a flash fire that needed extinguishing, but maybe other marriages are suffering a slow burn that still could use some cooling off.
If she gets into attack mode, I usually respond with, "I see you're upset. Let's talk about this later when we're both in a better place.*" I leave it up to her to remember her motto and cool off. It's not my job to play therapist and remind her of what we learned together. Later, I'll approach her (or she'll approach me) and ask her if she wants to talk about it and then we're fine. If she's still upset, that's on her and I'll continue to give her space.
* If she spices the attack up with calling me names, I'll respond a little more pointedly with something like, "I see you're upset and you're calling me names which is definitely out of bounds. Let's talk..."
It's worked pretty well. We both have our parts to do, so she doesn't have a free pass to be perpetually angry while it's soley my job to cope better. We're both committed to doing our parts.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Two things with women.
1) Preface everything they say with "Right now I feel like"
2) Their actions should be considered much more than their words.
1) Preface everything they say with "Right now I feel like"
2) Their actions should be considered much more than their words.
pats3in4
Footballguy
A lot has happened since the last post in July 2013 leading up to today's decision to get divorced...
In a nutshell, my wife has been diagnosed with a personality disorder by two separate marriage counselors of her choosing, both of whom she quit once the heat started getting turned up to look within ourselves. Both counselors also told me that unless she owns it and does something about it, the prospects for a happy marriage going forward are slim. As is true with most people who suffer a PD, she doesn't think anything is wrong with her so the burden to be the emotional center for two people falls on me and I'm not up for that. Mixed in all of this is a separation I initiated back in October of 2013 that has at times triggered her fears of abandonment typical for PD sufferers with ugly results around our children. Today's decision is for the best of everyone.
So now I'm a mid-40s father of 3 young girls with a big hole in my life where an intimate relationship had once been. And I'm a combination of unsure and intimidated on how to fill it. I'll obviously take some time to mourn the loss of my marriage and emotionally heal, but I don't want to become a hermit. Any advice is appreciated here.
Thanks again to everyone who tried to help me in this thread. And to pay it back/forward, I want to share what I've learned in my lengthy time spent at support forums for family members of PD sufferers. At those forums the members have shared their stories and they are so similar it's like we all married the same person. Sometimes I read threads here, see the same and think, "Maybe if you knew about PDs, things would make more sense. I wish I had known about them." And that's so true...I wish I knew years ago what I know now and would have been better equipped to handle what I was dealing with. Ignorance is not bliss, not with PDs.
In a nutshell, my wife has been diagnosed with a personality disorder by two separate marriage counselors of her choosing, both of whom she quit once the heat started getting turned up to look within ourselves. Both counselors also told me that unless she owns it and does something about it, the prospects for a happy marriage going forward are slim. As is true with most people who suffer a PD, she doesn't think anything is wrong with her so the burden to be the emotional center for two people falls on me and I'm not up for that. Mixed in all of this is a separation I initiated back in October of 2013 that has at times triggered her fears of abandonment typical for PD sufferers with ugly results around our children. Today's decision is for the best of everyone.
So now I'm a mid-40s father of 3 young girls with a big hole in my life where an intimate relationship had once been. And I'm a combination of unsure and intimidated on how to fill it. I'll obviously take some time to mourn the loss of my marriage and emotionally heal, but I don't want to become a hermit. Any advice is appreciated here.
Thanks again to everyone who tried to help me in this thread. And to pay it back/forward, I want to share what I've learned in my lengthy time spent at support forums for family members of PD sufferers. At those forums the members have shared their stories and they are so similar it's like we all married the same person. Sometimes I read threads here, see the same and think, "Maybe if you knew about PDs, things would make more sense. I wish I had known about them." And that's so true...I wish I knew years ago what I know now and would have been better equipped to handle what I was dealing with. Ignorance is not bliss, not with PDs.
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tommyboy
Footballguy
Thats sad but your future is bright. The next woman you end up with, im 1000% sure you'll know doesnt suffer from narcissism or bipolar, because you now know the signs.
The most important thing you need to do for your kids is let them know yiu arent leaving "them". Its very confusing for kids in divorce and you know they aren't getting a good example of a loving adult from momma, so you have to be their rock. Good luck
The most important thing you need to do for your kids is let them know yiu arent leaving "them". Its very confusing for kids in divorce and you know they aren't getting a good example of a loving adult from momma, so you have to be their rock. Good luck
pats3in4
Footballguy
Thanks. Our kids' well-being means the world to me and I'll make sure I do what I can to soften the blow. PDs affect all relationships to various degrees, usually to those closest so after me the kids face the most amount of emotional punishment. Our last counselor said to me, "At least when the kids are with you, they will get a respite from her disordered world view...some normalcy."
And yes, my radar is tuned to find the signs in my future relationships. My biggest fear is that it's too sensitive and I'll start picking up false positives, thinking normal conflict is a sign of a PD. I'll need to be aware of that.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Stay fit. Eat well. Exercise. Sorry to hear about your divorce but you had no other options left.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I followed this thread the whole time and while it's sad that this is happening it seems like it was inevitable. Good luck.
FUBAR
Footballguy
Sorry to hear it came to this, but it seems the best choice.
FWIW, a good buddy of mine went through similar stuff a few years back (don't think his wife was diagnosed but sounds like she should have been); with two daughters. His ex is now getting a 3rd divorce and living with a new guy while her current divorce is pending. My buddy's life is pretty decent, his new wife is great without the issues. It falls on him and his new wife to be the rock for his daughters who are approaching dating age. That's the scariest part - girls tend to mimic their mother's behavior while unintentionally seeking a guy like their father. So, good on one side, but the other is terrifying.
Be the rock, try to have your daughters spend time with good woman role models, and pray.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Yeah, conversely you could be living like my friend. He's not getting divorced but recently purchased a home for his wife to live seperately from him, with a boyfriend...and their kids when she wants them. It's absolutely mind blowing the level of denial he is in. He's still trying to buy her love. At least you have to stones to cut the cord.
El Floppo
Footballguy
Sorry to hear about this- but definitely sounds like it's for the best. And that big hole... I have a feeling once the shock of loss and day-to-day "normalcy" disappears, you'll find that the unhealthy intimate relationship can and will be replaced by something far easier and healthier.
Good luck!
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johnnycakes
Footballguy
The divorce process sucks. But you have lots of company here in people who have gone through it. Let me know when you want to go to China. I'll show you around. My wife might even be able to get you hooked up.
El Floppo
Footballguy
Hawks64
Footballguy
T Bell
Footballguy
FWIW, my former girlfriend was a psychology Ph.d., and she always told me that personality disorders are non-curable. You can maybe alleviate a few of the symptoms with a lot of work, but there's really no happy ending with those. Again, sorry for your distress but things will improve.
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
Sorry man. My wife just left by mutual agreement after a couple years of walking on eggshells myself. She is quite possibly the most self entitled person i've ever met. It would take multiple hands to count the number of times in the past year she said she hated me, wanted to punch me in the face etc. Got much much worse when our daughter was born. We went to one marriage counseling session. The female doctor sided with me too much apparently and she refused to go back again. Said she felt ganged up on. Only been a couple weeks since she moved out and its been tough but it definitely gets a little easier each day. Mornings are the worst. Best i've heard it described was that there's like a ghost in the house. You can feel a presence there but it's just an emptiness that follows you around. Keep yourself busy. I replaced all the lights in the house, bought new furniture, started learning how to play guitar and have been hitting the gym with a vengeance. And of course spending time with my daughter, i have her 5 days one week and 3 the next. I've seen this coming for awhile and i thought i prepared myself but it doesn't truly hit until they're gone. Hang in there.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
I guess I was hesitant to make this "diagnosis" initially, but there is a reason that the main book on BPD is called Stop Walking on Eggshells. I went through a similar situation and it was certainly sad, but in the end, I believe that it was for the best that we divorced. I am happier. I am more present for my daughter. You can get that book here: http://www.hazelden.org/web/public/document/famborderguide_2624.pdf
Maybe you already know about it, but it might help to contextualize everything and understand how to deal with her better going forward, and not to feel like things are your fault.
I would suggest exercise, preferably socially. I got involved with some groups on meetup.com and it was a good way to stay active and to meet some new people.
gianmarco
Footballguy
pats3in4
Footballguy
pats3in4
Footballguy
I've read otherwise, but for it to happen it takes years of therapy and perhaps medication, all driven by the person who suffers the PD. The first hurdle, acknowledgement, is a tough one as it is. The second one, commitment to long-term therapy, is an even bigger hurdle. In essence the therapy is attempting to rewire a brain whose capacity for empathy is severely underdeveloped. That's far from trivial.
pats3in4
Footballguy
pats3in4
Footballguy
The title of that book was the inspiration of this thread title. I had a gut feeling my wife was suffering something and from what I read about that book, there seemed to be a fit so I used the title. Still, at the time I knew so little about PDs and so much of the focus on BPD literature in particular is on the low-functioning sufferers (e.g. cutters, substance abusers, serial cheaters) that I didn't understand it's a spectrum disorder and that my wife was on the high-functioning side. Since the first diagnosis in October, I've read a ton on the topic and will continue to pimp the support forum that was very helpful (the link is a few posts up).
Thanks for your advice on moving forward. I signed up for match.com over the weekend and already received a few winks...I'll be checking out the iDating thread to learn the ropes.
17seconds
root of all aliai
pats3in4, I hope everything works out well for you, looks like you are making the right decision in the long run.
Similar situation here, although in my case she is aware of it and works at it. Makes it really complicated when the person you are with has a lot of personality traits that cause you enormous stress, but also has good qualities and is working hard at being better. She is a good person who wants to be married and be there for me and the kids. So you start questioning yourself - why can't I find ways to live with these traits? I could tell you 3 or 4 things about my wife that would make you say "why the hell would you ever leave her?", and 3 or 4 things that would make you say "why the hell would you stay with her?"
Lots in common and lots to discuss - would like to continue on PM if you are up for it.
Similar situation here, although in my case she is aware of it and works at it. Makes it really complicated when the person you are with has a lot of personality traits that cause you enormous stress, but also has good qualities and is working hard at being better. She is a good person who wants to be married and be there for me and the kids. So you start questioning yourself - why can't I find ways to live with these traits? I could tell you 3 or 4 things about my wife that would make you say "why the hell would you ever leave her?", and 3 or 4 things that would make you say "why the hell would you stay with her?"
Lots in common and lots to discuss - would like to continue on PM if you are up for it.
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Not sure I understand the big rush in to this. Unless you've already been separated awhile (if you have been and it's been posted, then apologies) I just don't see the rush to get in to the dating scene before the dust has even settled, esecially emotionally.
mr roboto
Footballguy
I've had 2 buddies get married and divorced within the first 5 years of marriage. Both of their wives had BPD. Both were diagnosed and constantly refused or quit counseling.
A third friend is going through the same thing and trying to make the marriage work. She too won't come to terms with her own issues. Sad.
A third friend is going through the same thing and trying to make the marriage work. She too won't come to terms with her own issues. Sad.
johnnycakes
Footballguy
I don't know about the OP, but I was already emotionally detached by the time she filed for divorce.
pats3in4
Footballguy
Very willing to PM, 17seconds. Your 2nd paragraph is one I could have written myself (except the parts about her working on it).
17seconds
root of all aliai
It's a roller coaster. I'm convinced I'm going one way or the other, then it changes the next day. Been like that for over a year. My support network thinks I'm a total headcase.
pats3in4
Footballguy
We've been separated since October and I started to emotionally detach. Since July when the 2nd diagnosis confirmed the first wasn't off base, I've pretty much completed the detachment process. But your point is spot on...I would not have done this back in October.
I've been out of the dating scene for over 18 years and the rules have changed a ton (online dating sites, mobile apps). I'm not jumping in so much to find a new relationship, but more to just kind of reacquaint myself with the dos and don'ts of dating, especially in this new online world. Should be a good comedy of errors, I'm sure.
iamsmilin
I want one, but I'm not creative
Sorry to hear about your divorce and I wish you the best.
My only advice for you is to take your relationship with your ex-wife one day at a time. You will have to be the bigger person most of the time, but suck it up because the kids will need one stable person who makes good decisions to look up to. Never bad mouth her in front of them if you can. Be a good father, the world has enough f'ed up women with daddy issues.
Take time getting back into dating, serious dating. Bang whoever you want just don't bring them home to meet the kids. When/if you do get married again find a nice stable person who can be a good female influence in their lives. Also, if you don't want more kids, you better date someone who already has some of her own.
Good luck!
My only advice for you is to take your relationship with your ex-wife one day at a time. You will have to be the bigger person most of the time, but suck it up because the kids will need one stable person who makes good decisions to look up to. Never bad mouth her in front of them if you can. Be a good father, the world has enough f'ed up women with daddy issues.
Take time getting back into dating, serious dating. Bang whoever you want just don't bring them home to meet the kids. When/if you do get married again find a nice stable person who can be a good female influence in their lives. Also, if you don't want more kids, you better date someone who already has some of her own.
Good luck!
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pats3in4
Footballguy
Thanks, iamsmilin. This is my plan to a T so it's so great to be validated like this.
And don't get me started on the bolded...yeesh!
Grahamburn
Footballguy
I'm sure some women are much more severe than others, but I'm not sure I've ever met one who didn't have a personality disorder.
Well, it's a whole other level. The BPDs are virtually non-functional in all their relationships as far as I can tell and their yelling and accusations are over the top.
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johnnycakes
Footballguy
MikeIke
Footballguy
17seconds
root of all aliai
Update on me...
I told my wife I wanted a divorce on 10/14, moved down to the guest bedroom. We were doing just fine, avoiding each other except when around the kids. After about 5 days of that I told her let's sit down and start talking about how we want to settle matters, make it as easy as possible. I told her we should separate our credit cards - she should just use hers, I'll use mine. Then she put a big charge on the joint card for 3 years of pro website support for her art website (which doesn't expire until Feb, BTW). I pleaded with her to do a monthly thing or a 6mo plan or something because we won't be together after a year or so. She refused. I went back to the guest bedroom, frustrated. Next morning I asked her one last time nicely and she said no.
So I go to work and tried to call her a few times to get some info from her on my filing. No response to calls and texts. It was weird. I went straight home after lunch. She's gone and took the kids an animals. I call my lawyer and finds out she went to her mother's house and is claiming I broke into the MBR and grabbed her and will be filing a restraining order. This was on 10/24. Completely false. We didn't even have a real argument, just a disagreement about the CC charge.
She stayed with the kids at her mom's through Monday. I go to work on Tues and while I'm there she returns to the house with the kids. Attorney advises me not to go near her or she'll file a restraining order. Since Tues I've been staying at a buddies place and trying to get some kind of visitation and temporary support going so I can see my kids. Been emailing her once a day saying the kids need a father and I miss them.
So no Halloween with the family this year.
pats3in4 and I have been IM'ing and talking on the phone for the last couple of weeks since our situations are similar. He's a great guy and helping me a lot on how to deal with a crazy person.
FBGs stick together.
I told my wife I wanted a divorce on 10/14, moved down to the guest bedroom. We were doing just fine, avoiding each other except when around the kids. After about 5 days of that I told her let's sit down and start talking about how we want to settle matters, make it as easy as possible. I told her we should separate our credit cards - she should just use hers, I'll use mine. Then she put a big charge on the joint card for 3 years of pro website support for her art website (which doesn't expire until Feb, BTW). I pleaded with her to do a monthly thing or a 6mo plan or something because we won't be together after a year or so. She refused. I went back to the guest bedroom, frustrated. Next morning I asked her one last time nicely and she said no.
So I go to work and tried to call her a few times to get some info from her on my filing. No response to calls and texts. It was weird. I went straight home after lunch. She's gone and took the kids an animals. I call my lawyer and finds out she went to her mother's house and is claiming I broke into the MBR and grabbed her and will be filing a restraining order. This was on 10/24. Completely false. We didn't even have a real argument, just a disagreement about the CC charge.
She stayed with the kids at her mom's through Monday. I go to work on Tues and while I'm there she returns to the house with the kids. Attorney advises me not to go near her or she'll file a restraining order. Since Tues I've been staying at a buddies place and trying to get some kind of visitation and temporary support going so I can see my kids. Been emailing her once a day saying the kids need a father and I miss them.
So no Halloween with the family this year.
pats3in4 and I have been IM'ing and talking on the phone for the last couple of weeks since our situations are similar. He's a great guy and helping me a lot on how to deal with a crazy person.
FBGs stick together.
