Kleck.
Footballguy
Everything I have seen has him as a UFA in 2007, but there is a clause with the contract allowing the final year to be voidable after the 2006 season.
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Falcons trade RB Duckett to Redskins (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter MKB4®
- Start date
Nigel Tufnel
Footballguy
Shooter McGavin
Down the middle
Seriously. They've got to bring in someone else, don't they? Does this make Griffith the 3rd string back? Deandra Cobb?
T
trader jake
Guest
I agree now that we know that entire draft pick details going from Washington to Denver. This deal still doesn't make sense to me for Atlanta though.
Significant Shrinkage
Footballguy
This is a reasonable argument, but based on the assumption that no surgery = perfect health. Just because Portis doesn't need surgery doesn't ensure he will be 100%. If he is 100%, I agree w/ your assessment, but I'm not sure we can draw that conclusion given the recent trade as well as the fact that the timetable for his return is a bit uncertain
my man otis
Footballguy
Well, he's had 90 and 89 in the past two years. It only takes 2 more carries per game to get him from 90 to 125.
This is a very interesting take (I know the numbers are up to 225 carries and 6 TDs now)...The bolded part definitely means that you think Portis injury is way worse than advertised (like you mention in the post)... contradicting the statement made by Dr. Andrews - who said that Portis would not require surgery and would not have to be "shut down"...
I don't think that the Redskins are able to put words into Dr. Andrews's mouth - since he has often stated in the past that pitchers required surgery (or not) - just think Eric Gagne - and he has never lobbied his comments...
This has to be the base of the "I would not draft Portis this year" comment because... if Portis falls to #28 (i.e. behind Dunn) only because Duckett is now in the Redskins backfield - this means that you think that Dunn is a better "yardage" runner than Portis... (if not, why would Dunn be #20 when Duckett is there... and Portis is #28 now that Duckett is there?)
And why would Barber be a good pick at 1.04/1.05 with Jacobs around... and Portis becomes "undraftable" only because Duckett is on board (when Sellers and Betts to some extent were already taking some of the GL carries away from Portis)...
If FBG knows more about the Portis injury that we do know now... please state so because the entire FF world is watching!...
(I'm sure FBG will pass the verified information along as quickly as possible when it is made available)
---
We all know that "Everyone is a risk injury"... and many RBs will miss regular season action (not preseason) when they'll get hit this year...
Let's be objective and not jump the gun on the first news we get... credibility is at stake...
I know that he seems new, but Will Carroll's article on ESPN yesterday hasn't been mentioned yet. Will is probably the best sports injury reporter in the business - he's been reporting on baseball injuries for Baseball Prospectus, has been hired by the NBA as an injury expert, and now has official NFL credentials with this new job.Like JayMan just said, it takes an incredible amount of arrogance to go against Dr. Andrews' word. There also has been an incredible amount of misinformation thrown around in this thread regarding Portis' injury.
Dropping him down to RB28 makes sense - but only if Portis were coming back from ACL surgery.
Real Man of Genius
Footballguy
I agree. Reports have the Redskins hopeful that Portis will be back by the opener. It would be insane of them not to be cautious with him (i.e. less touches, very few red zone and short yardage looks). It is a statistical impossibility (wink) that he will reach last year's numbers (RB7 in PPR). I would put him around RB12-14 with little upside and significant downside.
jafo
Out of Mind
I think a lot of you are missing the point of Portis being downgraded. Right now, he's about as low as his value can be. If I was drafting today I'd be hard pressed to take him in the first or second round. He had already slipped to the bottom of the first round in many drafts before the Duckett trade. I think that is all Dodds is trying to show with the downgrade.
I imagine we'll see Portis start climbing back up the projections as more information becomes available. If you are looking to get Portis cheap, now is the time. Of course there is a gamble involved but in FF when isn't it a gamble.
I imagine we'll see Portis start climbing back up the projections as more information becomes available. If you are looking to get Portis cheap, now is the time. Of course there is a gamble involved but in FF when isn't it a gamble.
ATC1
Footballguy
As a medical professional this guy Will Carroll seems to know what he is talking about.This is a very interesting take (I know the numbers are up to 225 carries and 6 TDs now)...The bolded part definitely means that you think Portis injury is way worse than advertised (like you mention in the post)... contradicting the statement made by Dr. Andrews - who said that Portis would not require surgery and would not have to be "shut down"...
I don't think that the Redskins are able to put words into Dr. Andrews's mouth - since he has often stated in the past that pitchers required surgery (or not) - just think Eric Gagne - and he has never lobbied his comments...
This has to be the base of the "I would not draft Portis this year" comment because... if Portis falls to #28 (i.e. behind Dunn) only because Duckett is now in the Redskins backfield - this means that you think that Dunn is a better "yardage" runner than Portis... (if not, why would Dunn be #20 when Duckett is there... and Portis is #28 now that Duckett is there?)
And why would Barber be a good pick at 1.04/1.05 with Jacobs around... and Portis becomes "undraftable" only because Duckett is on board (when Sellers and Betts to some extent were already taking some of the GL carries away from Portis)...
If FBG knows more about the Portis injury that we do know now... please state so because the entire FF world is watching!...
(I'm sure FBG will pass the verified information along as quickly as possible when it is made available)
---
We all know that "Everyone is a risk injury"... and many RBs will miss regular season action (not preseason) when they'll get hit this year...
Let's be objective and not jump the gun on the first news we get... credibility is at stake...
Like JayMan just said, it takes an incredible amount of arrogance to go against Dr. Andrews' word. There also has been an incredible amount of misinformation thrown around in this thread regarding Portis' injury.
Dropping him down to RB28 makes sense - but only if Portis were coming back from ACL surgery.
Unfortunately I'm not an insider. This would be the first time I would ever want to be really because I'm intrigued. Can anyone who is an insider read it and give me the run down of what he thinks. Sounds informative to the board here.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Manning....Peyton Manning
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M
MelvinTScupper
Guest
and only 2 less per game to go to 65
M
MelvinTScupper
Guest
"Just broke his leg in a car accident."Yeah, no gamble since that statement could be uttered at any moment.
ATC1
Footballguy
Before information gets out. This will be his lowest point unless he needs surgery.I don't know if it was mentioned here, but Al Saunders the past 3 years has not used T. Richardson in Goal-line situations.2003: 24-60-0
2004: 12-56-0
2005: 6-20-0
It seems that since LJ came Richardson has been used less. Now with Duckett I know it might be different because he is a RB not a full fleged FB, but thought the stats for a GL back in his offense was good info, and Betts maybe able to fill that LJ back up role.
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I'm not sure what the regulations are here, so I won't give a full quote, except for the medical mumbo-jumbo:[QUOTE='Will Carroll via ESPN Fantasy]Portis had a subluxation of his right shoulder, commonly called a 'partial dislocation.' The humeral head sits in the shallow cup of the glenoid fossa. When the head comes all the way out of the cup and has to be put back in place, that's a dislocation. A subluxation comes up to the rim, but not quite out. There's still trauma, usually a stretching of the ligaments and tendons in the shoulder capsule that are not designed for such motion.As a medical professional this guy Will Carroll seems to know what he is talking about.
[/QUOTE]Reinjury seems to be a very unlikely. The most possible scenario that would lead to reinjury would be falling again with his arm outstretched. Will then reiterates Dr. Andrews' diagnosis - that he should be good to go Week 1. He describes the injury as "insignificant". I'll echo those who label the Duckett move as "insurance". Jacobs will get more GL TDs than Duckett will.
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my man otis
Footballguy
OK, let's go this way then - do you see Portis getting more than 275 carries? if not, then who gets the other 200 doesn't really matter for purposes of discussing Portis' stats this year. Duckett or Betts or RB X, it's the same impact to Portis.If you think he'll get more than 275 then we'll agree to disagree.
Noahs Troopers
Footballguy
McGahee >>>>>>>>>>>>> Portis 
M
MelvinTScupper
Guest
McGahee >>>>>>>>>>>>> Portis
Jedimaster21
Footballguy
I know this isn't exactly the focus of the original thread, but as an Eagle's fan I couldn't let this sarcastic comment go. First of all, Thrash was a solid possession WR, and was one of the best available FA that season, although he wasn't a difference maker. It wasn't a terrible move to pick him up at the time, and he was clearly better than Charles Johnson and T. Small. The other WR you spoke of, McMullen, Mitchell, and Pinkston were taken before Heckert was making most of the decisions, along with Andy Reid. Tom Modrak was responsible for the scouting and drafting during that time. You cannot judge the current group of young WR based on the last few drafted, because different people were responsible, and the new group is much more promising. As for Portis's value, I definitely think it takes a major hit. I'm not sure that he should drop to #28, but he has an injury that could be a problem the entire season and he will probably get less than half the goal line opportunities previously predicted. Both of those factors clearly take him from being a top 4 pick to a late first, early second round pick at the earliest.McMullen, Freddie Mitchell, James Thrash, Pinkston....yep Philly nows how to scout and develop those young WR's...Not to continue the threadjack but that's a stretch.Baskett has a couple of decent preseason games and suddenly he's the franchise saviour at the position? What has Jason Avant shown which would make any fan feel he's better than Billy McMullen? I'll agree that I'm high on Reggie Brown but just because there's new faces in Philly at the wide receiver position, and they're young, does not automatically make them good and promising.Hi Pat,Not to hijack, but (1) the Eagles have some of the best young WRs that they've ever had under Andy Reid with Avant, Bakett, and Reggie Brown. Now, (2) Lelie === Pinkston in many ways, and the Eagles aren't thrilled with either. Finally (3) Matt McCoy looks to be a starting LB come September.The fans that are happy not to see Lelie in Philly (I'm one of them) are thankful that a marginal talent with issues with management aren't coming to rooste.What is the Eagles problem? They have the worst receivers in the league, this side of the Patriots without Branch. Why wouldnt they give up a 3rd rounder for Lelie? Hell, they drafted Matt McCoy in the 2nd round last year and he is already a bust. I dont get it.So does this mean that Gargano of WIP in Philly was wrong again?
BigRed
Footballguy
Exactly And yet people don't seem to be the least worried about guys who ARE coming back from ACL this year.
Nigel Tufnel
Footballguy
Reinjury seems to be a very unlikely. The most possible scenario that would lead to reinjury would be falling again with his arm outstretched. Will then reiterates Dr. Andrews' diagnosis - that he should be good to go Week 1. He describes the injury as "insignificant". I'll echo those who label the Duckett move as "insurance". Jacobs will get more GL TDs than Duckett will.[/QUOTE]I'm not sure what the regulations are here, so I won't give a full quote, except for the medical mumbo-jumbo:[QUOTE='Will Carroll via ESPN Fantasy]Portis had a subluxation of his right shoulder, commonly called a 'partial dislocation.' The humeral head sits in the shallow cup of the glenoid fossa. When the head comes all the way out of the cup and has to be put back in place, that's a dislocation. A subluxation comes up to the rim, but not quite out. There's still trauma, usually a stretching of the ligaments and tendons in the shoulder capsule that are not designed for such motion.As a medical professional this guy Will Carroll seems to know what he is talking about.
JayMan
Footballguy
Reinjury seems to be a very unlikely. The most possible scenario that would lead to reinjury would be falling again with his arm outstretched. Will then reiterates Dr. Andrews' diagnosis - that he should be good to go Week 1. He describes the injury as "insignificant". I'll echo those who label the Duckett move as "insurance". Jacobs will get more GL TDs than Duckett will.I'm not sure what the regulations are here, so I won't give a full quote, except for the medical mumbo-jumbo:[QUOTE='Will Carroll via ESPN Fantasy]Portis had a subluxation of his right shoulder, commonly called a 'partial dislocation.' The humeral head sits in the shallow cup of the glenoid fossa. When the head comes all the way out of the cup and has to be put back in place, that's a dislocation. A subluxation comes up to the rim, but not quite out. There's still trauma, usually a stretching of the ligaments and tendons in the shoulder capsule that are not designed for such motion.As a medical professional this guy Will Carroll seems to know what he is talking about.
[/QUOTE]
(not to say Excellent posting!)...In my opinion... the Redskins saw an opportunity:1. Betts is a UFA at the end of the year - so is Duckett, but they are already talking extension;
2. Duckett is a better back in their opinion than Betts (even though Saunders sent smoke signals suggesting that Betts is tremendous);
3. They have a win now mentality - so a 3rd rounder is not much to their eyes;
4. Their RB crew is hurting all over;
5. Duckett brings insurance to Portis in case he comes back and dislocate it (alot easier to dislocate after a subluxation);
6. Duckett is a big bruising back that will help with GL carries
Of course, this means a downgrade to Portis FF value: less carries altogether, less GL carries plus the fact that he can reinjure his shoulder "more easily" now... but to have him at #28?... no way...
(HULK)
(Smash)
Case in point, David and Joe have Portis behind Foster right now.Foster is more likely to be injured this season than Portis.Foster has more talented competition at halfback.Foster is less talented than Portis.Essentially, you guys need to think this out more.Exactly And yet people don't seem to be the least worried about guys who ARE coming back from ACL this year.
Real Man of Genius
Footballguy
I don't disagree with the rest of your post, but why do so many people seem to be ignoring the fact that Portis is already injured?Case in point, David and Joe have Portis behind Foster right now.Foster is more likely to be injured this season than Portis.ExactlyAnd yet people don't seem to be the least worried about guys who ARE coming back from ACL this year.
Foster has more talented competition at halfback.
Foster is less talented than Portis.
Essentially, you guys need to think this out more.
ATC1
Footballguy
Bills | McGahee injures shoulder in practiceWed, 23 Aug 2006 08:42:42 -0700Leo Roth, of the Democrat and Chronicle, reports Buffalo Bills RB Willis McGahee (shoulder) suffered a shoulder injury in practice Tuesday, Aug. 22. McGahee finished practice, but had his shoulder heavily wrapped afterwards. From KFFL. Still feel the same way? Don't know the extent of the shoulder injury, but I'm sure this site will be one of the first to report it.McGahee >>>>>>>>>>>>> Portis
(HULK)
(Smash)
Sure, injured enough to sit out preseason games he already doesn't want to play. He'll start week 1. And it is not highly probable that he will reinjure this injury, according to several medical experts. Sure, its possible, but less possible than an injury to Foster, who gets injured looking at a football field.I don't disagree with the rest of your post, but why do so many people seem to be ignoring the fact that Portis is already injured?Case in point, David and Joe have Portis behind Foster right now.Foster is more likely to be injured this season than Portis.ExactlyAnd yet people don't seem to be the least worried about guys who ARE coming back from ACL this year.
Foster has more talented competition at halfback.
Foster is less talented than Portis.
Essentially, you guys need to think this out more.
JayMan
Footballguy
Is McGahee now #29?...Bills | McGahee injures shoulder in practiceWed, 23 Aug 2006 08:42:42 -0700Leo Roth, of the Democrat and Chronicle, reports Buffalo Bills RB Willis McGahee (shoulder) suffered a shoulder injury in practice Tuesday, Aug. 22. McGahee finished practice, but had his shoulder heavily wrapped afterwards. From KFFL. Still feel the same way? Don't know the extent of the shoulder injury, but I'm sure this site will be one of the first to report it.McGahee >>>>>>>>>>>>> Portis
ATC1
Footballguy
No we have to wait until Staley gets traded to the Bills.Is McGahee now #29?...Bills | McGahee injures shoulder in practiceWed, 23 Aug 2006 08:42:42 -0700Leo Roth, of the Democrat and Chronicle, reports Buffalo Bills RB Willis McGahee (shoulder) suffered a shoulder injury in practice Tuesday, Aug. 22. McGahee finished practice, but had his shoulder heavily wrapped afterwards. From KFFL. Still feel the same way? Don't know the extent of the shoulder injury, but I'm sure this site will be one of the first to report it.McGahee >>>>>>>>>>>>> Portis
Duckett doesn't pound the ball. Get over that. It's wrong.Go watch him play. I've seen ever game he's played. He breaks it OUTSIDE constantly. He doesn't run with the tilt. Bettis had a tilt. Duckett doesn't have a tilt. He doesn't fall forward. He gets pushed back on initial contact. He runs like he's 190. End of story. Striaght up, always bouncing it outside. He does not pound the ball. Go check the film on this guy. People assume because he's 250 he's a bruiser. He's not. Nothing close.
Nigel Tufnel
Footballguy
Bills | McGahee injures shoulder in practiceWed, 23 Aug 2006 08:42:42 -0700Leo Roth, of the Democrat and Chronicle, reports Buffalo Bills RB Willis McGahee (shoulder) suffered a shoulder injury in practice Tuesday, Aug. 22. McGahee finished practice, but had his shoulder heavily wrapped afterwards. From KFFL. Still feel the same way? Don't know the extent of the shoulder injury, but I'm sure this site will be one of the first to report it.McGahee >>>>>>>>>>>>> Portis
Go gloat somewhere else!
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
Thanks. Well, of the other 14, only 2 of them were players listed as Probable that week and one of them was Daniel Graham in week 17 when lots of banged up players sit (The other was Mike Clayton in week 5). I would say that combining that information with the comparison of fantasy points performance makes me think that shoulder injuries may not have as much of a negative fantasy impact as some might think. However, the Washington Redskins had 22 fantasy starter injuries listed last year and only 13, or 59%, played that week. That's 10th worst in the league for teams reporting at least 14 fantasy starter injuries. Clinton Portis himself was listed as Probable 3 weeks: week 6 he played with a calf injury and scored 2.2 points below his avg; week 7 he played as well with the calf injury and almost doubled his season fantasy point average; week 12 he played with an illness and scored 4 points below his average. In conclusion, I think the worries about the shoulder injury IN GENERAL are overblown in terms of his fantasy impact if he plays. I understand the idea of using Duckett to pound it in and spelling him some, but I would guess that the 200 carry prediction is way too low. However the Redskins did play injured players at a rate in the bottom 3rd of the league, so you may be in some trouble if he's listed on the injury report all year. Again, small sample sizes, but it's what happened last year.
dgreen
Footballguy
I'm not too worried about Portis' shoulder, but that doesn't necessarily lead to Duckett not getting significant GL TDs and only being insurance. I believe Duckett will have a significant role on this team; that's why they traded for him.
redman
Footballguy
Won't happen. They'd rather get no compensation for Betts when he walks after this year than help the Eagles shore up a position that has both injury and power problems with a guy who's pretty talented.Sig I think you may have been
while watching Duckett because I just went to youtube and watched two films of him that show him running around, thru and over the defense. Lowers his head and flat puts them on their back.
Big Score
Footballguy
Hate to say it Sigfawn, but doing what you suggest and looking at the film on Duckett, ends up contradicting just about everything you've said.
The hit Duckett puts on John Lynch as he's running over him, is just brutal. Put Lynch out of that game too IIRC.Film on TJ Duckett
redman
Footballguy
Agreed. Portis has worn down late in the year both years he's been with the 'Skins. Not coincidentally, those have also been the two years in which he's had the most carries. Like a pitcher with a pitch count, Portis needs to be on a carry count that has him ending up with no more than 290 carries. On a team that has averaged 500 carries the last two years (and with a new offensive coordinator who's averaged even more during that time), that still leaves a significant amount of work for the other RB's.
Fair enough on both counts.
redman
Footballguy
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
Because he's not a punter.Nigel Tufnel said:
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
TOOL FACTOR -------> Still CODE REDSigfawn said:
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Is the shoulder injury Portis suffered similar to Benson's shoulder injury?
ATC1
Footballguy
Exactly the same thing. A shoulder subluxation. How it happened, or mechanism of injury is different. Benson got hit in the shoulder. Portis fell with an out stretched arm. Both MRIs were negative.
redman
Footballguy
I thought Benson had a mild separation, which is different from the subluxation that Portis suffered.
ATC1
Footballguy
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/wire?sectio...&id=2543881
AKA Shoulder subluxation.Saying the sprained shoulder is a generic name for a mild separated shoulder, but people not in the medical field get them mixed up all the time. I would go by the MRI report.
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goonsquad
Think different.
Big Score said:Hate to say it Sigfawn, but doing what you suggest and looking at the film on Duckett, ends up contradicting just about everything you've said.
The hit Duckett puts on John Lynch as he's running over him, is just brutal. Put Lynch out of that game too IIRC.
Film on TJ Duckett
Duckett = Bonecrusher is da TRUTH!
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Clipped this from RTSports but it has the source listed.
Aug 21 2006 11:46PM
Gary Fitzgerald, of Redskins.com, reports Washington Redskins RB Clinton Portis (shoulder) did some stretching and light running Monday, Aug. 21. He did not wear the sling that he wore last week to protect his injured shoulder. "It feels okay. The pain is still there, but as far as my movement and being able to do everything, I feel fine," said Portis. He added he had a similar shoulder injury during his senior year of high school and that is helping him since he knows what to expect from the healing process. "The other good thing about it is, I'm not in a rush to get back and there's time for me to get fully healthy so it's not nagging throughout the season."
So are we to dismiss Portis and his comments? I mean he isn't wearing the sling...he says he ahs time to get fully healthy...why would we think he will get less than 325-350 touches in that offense? I said touches not carries. If he gets 18 carries a game that's 288 carries...40+ receptions puts him in the 325+ range...Why would 1,500 total yds be a stretch? And you can't project TDs because you just do not know how many long TDs he could break or if he is 100% that he will get pulled everytime at the goal line...Saunder didn't pull Priest much and he was injury prone too.
People gotta sit back and relax a tad here.
Aug 21 2006 11:46PM
Gary Fitzgerald, of Redskins.com, reports Washington Redskins RB Clinton Portis (shoulder) did some stretching and light running Monday, Aug. 21. He did not wear the sling that he wore last week to protect his injured shoulder. "It feels okay. The pain is still there, but as far as my movement and being able to do everything, I feel fine," said Portis. He added he had a similar shoulder injury during his senior year of high school and that is helping him since he knows what to expect from the healing process. "The other good thing about it is, I'm not in a rush to get back and there's time for me to get fully healthy so it's not nagging throughout the season."
So are we to dismiss Portis and his comments? I mean he isn't wearing the sling...he says he ahs time to get fully healthy...why would we think he will get less than 325-350 touches in that offense? I said touches not carries. If he gets 18 carries a game that's 288 carries...40+ receptions puts him in the 325+ range...Why would 1,500 total yds be a stretch? And you can't project TDs because you just do not know how many long TDs he could break or if he is 100% that he will get pulled everytime at the goal line...Saunder didn't pull Priest much and he was injury prone too.
People gotta sit back and relax a tad here.
wannabee
Footballguy
I think this is the time to acquire Portis in dynasty from a scared owner
ATC1
Footballguy
Them and Dr. Andrews, who said he should be ready for week one, but you are right. Unless we get continued reports of his rehab it is mostly speculation.
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