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Meachem over Bowe for at least one reason (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Ed Wood
- Start date
OK, two reasons:1) Who would you rather have running your offense? Drew Breese or ?2) Who would you rather have running your team? Payton or Mr. BoneheadMeachem in a walk...
I completely agree. Brees is one of the most accurate QBs in the league (hyperaccurate at times), and Payton is one of the best offensive minds in the league. I don't think Meachem has to be a better "real" player than Bowe to be a much better fantasy player.
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FunkyPlutos
Footballguy
I agree completely on your assessment, but I think he is a better player overall anyway.OK, two reasons:
1) Who would you rather have running your offense? Drew Breese or ?
2) Who would you rather have running your team? Payton or Mr. Bonehead
Meachem in a walk...
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
I said all along of the top 6 or so WRs that Meachem was the top candidate to bust
Say what you want about King, Meachem gained almost 20 pounds after the Combine
What the ... ?
Say what you want about King, Meachem gained almost 20 pounds after the Combine
What the ... ?
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
I disagree. Most WRs take a couple of years to become good NFL starters. QBs and Coaches can change in 2-3 years. I think Brees and Payton will likely be there, but I would bet that KC will have a better QB and coach in 2-3 years.OK, two reasons:1) Who would you rather have running your offense? Drew Breese or ?2) Who would you rather have running your team? Payton or Mr. BoneheadMeachem in a walk...
JohnnyU
Footballguy
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
He is also just like Jeff Webb, the 2nd year late rounder trying to cut it with the Chiefs, in one respect. While being a very solid and physical runner after the catch, he is scared to go over the middle and make plays. It is a tough thing to grasp, physical runner/not a good over the middle receiver, but it is in both of their mental makeups. A little too much fear of that oncoming safety makes a tough runner a soft player sometimes. Toughness is key to transitioning for WRs, and I have big doubts about "beachem."
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
I don't care that much for Bowe either...Contstrux...
I like Bowe. Meachem will bomb.
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
He was 218 Tuesday. He has taken off about 10 and has 10 to go. It is a red flag, regardless.
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
He did a great Maurice Stovall at the Senior Bowl, but he has a real problem with drops. Oddly, he's a good hands catcher but lacks the very important ability, that is so often disregarded as bad form, to catch the ball against his body. Some passes (many passes) dictate the ball be caught with less than perfect extended hands and the great receivers suck those in. They bounce off Bowe.I don't care that much for Bowe either...Contstrux...I like Bowe. Meachem will bomb.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
Wouldn't WR targets and competition be better than who's throwing the ball or coaching.NOs non-#1 WRs combined for 171 targets in 2006, so assuming that Brees' offensive numbers remain the same, Meachum will have to split those 171 targets with Henderson and Copper. KCs non #1 WRs combined for 121 targets so assuming that KC has the same offensive numbers Bowe will have to split those 121 targets with Samie Parker. I'll take my chances splitting less total targets against Samie Parker, then more total targets with Henderson and Copper. And this asssumes that Colston doesn't improve (which is possible) and take more of those 171 targets for himself. KCs #1 WR (Eddie Kennison) probably isn't much of a threat to take more of the targets then he already has.
The Jacket
Footballguy
I don't see how. Bowe has a much more well-rounded game and offers a lot more.Meachem might be the better deep threat and explosive guy, and he might be a better fantasy guy, but I'd take Bowe on my team over Meachem.
I completely acknowledge Meachem's bust risk, but he'll have to be downright horrible for the next 15 months to not be starting in 2008. Henderson is just not reliable and his contract will be up. Copper is nothing more than a slot receiver. Henderson, Horn, and Copper combined for over 1800 yards last year. Even if you projection some deflation into the passing offense, and solid number for the #3, the #2 WR in that offense has to be a 1000 yard guy assuming 16 games, with upside to spare.
Warpig
Footballguy
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Bowe also has his share of concentration lapses a la TO. Strangely enough it is true that drops are an issue with Bowe despite the fact that he's a great natural hands catcher.
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
I certainly prefer Bowe to Meachem in spite of criticizing both some. This is a great class of receivers and they may all be fine, but odds are someone busts.
Bowe has a very good chance of being WR1 on an NFL team very soon.
Meachem will not be WR1 as long as Colston is around (imo), and I doubt anyone but Reggie is WR2 for the next five years or more. Bloom doesn't care for Henderson, but he is steadily improving.
Bowe has a very good chance of being WR1 on an NFL team very soon.
Meachem will not be WR1 as long as Colston is around (imo), and I doubt anyone but Reggie is WR2 for the next five years or more. Bloom doesn't care for Henderson, but he is steadily improving.
I don't disagree with this, but there was still 1800+ yards and 12 TDs for the #2 and #3 to split up last year. I like Henderson's natural ability and speed, but he's Williamsonesque at times with the inexplicable drops.
humans_being
Footballguy
If that's the only "red flag" you can come up with then Meachem owners are in good shape(pun intended). As if 218 is heavy or something? Keep it real.
Dave Stauff
Footballguy
My sentiments exactly . . .
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
Warpig,
If we're gonna add all the recievers in the mix, who would you rather compete against for catches:
Bush (88)
Colston (70)
Henderson (32)
McAllister (30)
Copper (23)
Stecker (19)
Karney (15)
or
Gonzo (73)
Kennison (53)
LJ (41)
Parker (41)
Wilson (15)
Bennett (9)
Webb (3)
Unless you think Colston and Bush are both busts, Meachum has no chance of being the Saints #1 recieving option in the next 5-7 years (maybe even longer). At best he's looking at #3 option. However, Gonzo is 31, Kennison is 34. Within the next two years Bowe could be the #2 option in KC behind Gonzo. In 3-4 years he could be the #1 option.
ETA: NO also had 45 catches from their TE position as well. Just more competition for Meachum.
If we're gonna add all the recievers in the mix, who would you rather compete against for catches:
Bush (88)
Colston (70)
Henderson (32)
McAllister (30)
Copper (23)
Stecker (19)
Karney (15)
or
Gonzo (73)
Kennison (53)
LJ (41)
Parker (41)
Wilson (15)
Bennett (9)
Webb (3)
Unless you think Colston and Bush are both busts, Meachum has no chance of being the Saints #1 recieving option in the next 5-7 years (maybe even longer). At best he's looking at #3 option. However, Gonzo is 31, Kennison is 34. Within the next two years Bowe could be the #2 option in KC behind Gonzo. In 3-4 years he could be the #1 option.
ETA: NO also had 45 catches from their TE position as well. Just more competition for Meachum.
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Chaos Commish
Footballguy
Grabbing one quote and treating it as the "only" anything in a thread is real?Maybe you should review the whole thread and then be able to discuss the many concerns regarding Meachem. That, I believe, would be keeping it real. Thanks.
I think you have to look at the size of the whole pie before answering the question of which slice you'd rather have. The biggest slice of a 3200 yard pie is still not as valuable as being 3rd in line to feed from a 4000+ yard pie.
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Thom Yorke
Footballguy
I will once again quietly pimp David Patten here.
Thom Yorke
Footballguy
hmmmm. do you think someone thought the same thing when the rams drafted holt? bruce sure has kept him down, and he couldn't do anything when bruce and faulk were both there.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
Assuming that Brees has another career year and KC has another bad one. Even then are we comparing the two for 2007 only, or are we talking about 3, 4, 5 year from now, or throughout their entire careers?Because to me the whole pie isn't 2007. It has to include 2008, 2009 and so on...
Yes, but in order to support two WRs like that you need a couple of things to happen:Either #1: You need to throw for a ton of yards 4400+or #2: You need to only go to WR#1 and WR#2. As soon as you start spreading the ball around to RBs, WR#3, WR#4 and you don't have the ton of yards to go with it then the offense doesn't support 2 WRs. Maybe Brees can continue to throw for 4400+ yards year in and year out, but more than likely he'll regress down to about 4000 yards. Take a look at the Rams WRs when the QB doesn't throw for a 4400 yards. In fact whenever the Rams didn't hit at least 4400 yards passing they only had 1 WR hit 1000 yards (since 1999). The optimist in you says Brees can continue to throw for 4400+ yards a season, but the realist in me says he'll probably regress to about 4000-4200 yards (maybe less) which won't be enough to support a WR#2. If Brees regresses to around 4200 yards, in order to support a WR#2, he'll have to throw less to the RBs.
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
Very nice post. I can't understand why in a dynasty league you wouldn't weigh talent more than opportunity because things change in a hurry in the NFL. If you really think Meachem is more talented than Bowe, that's fine (although you're wrong ), but all the conversation in here is about their teams.
), but all the conversation in here is about their teams.
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I think Bowe > Meachem in fantasy and reality
The Shizzle
Footballguy
I knew Torry Holt, and by all means Sir, Robert Meachem is NO Torry Holt.
Warhogs
Footballguy
I see a lot of people looking at yardage here but in most of my leagues the great difference maker is TDs. My view is that NO has a much more explosive offense and there will be a lot more TDs available for Meachem that I give him the edge.
NO threw for 27 TD last season.
KC threw for 18 TD last season.
I really like what NO has going on offense and think they can improve.
KC seems to be on a decline in offense in my opinion.
NO threw for 27 TD last season.
KC threw for 18 TD last season.
I really like what NO has going on offense and think they can improve.
KC seems to be on a decline in offense in my opinion.
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ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
I like the way you think.
Riffraff
Footballguy
I posted my thoughts on the two here:
http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...t&p=6728112
http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...t&p=6728112
Riffraff said:
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thecardiackid
Footballguy
por que?Not being funny, I'm interested to know why you think he'll make some sort of impact after his less than stellar tenure in WAS.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
Here's the problem, you're only looking at next year.How/when will Meachum's position ever change from being the #3 option behind Bush and Colston? Then you have to assume that for KC will never throw more than 18TDs in a season and NO will never throw less then 27. To be honest, I like Huard at QB for KC. He basically played 8.5 games and threw 11 TDs and 1 INT. Trent Green was terrible for KC last year. I look for the KC offense to improve its number from last season.
humans_being
Footballguy
In the spirit of keeping it real, ten pounds is not that much at all and a lot of people have a fast metabolism. I myself can lose/gain ten pounds in one week. It's not a big deal, let alone a red flag IMO.Furthermore; unless your name is Larry Fitzgerald or the like, it's hard enough for a rookie WR to adjust to the NFL. All things being equal, it is an easier transaction for a WR on a team with more talent because there is less pressure and less focus on said rookie WR. Less pressure, more talent(both team and player), better odds.
What are the many concerns? A sprained ankle and 10 pounds overweight. Am i missing something else?
Warpig
Footballguy
This is probably my main point...along with what Bloom said.Sure, Bowe probably has a better shot at being the #1 in KC than Meachem has in NO. However, look at the state of the franchises. KC is probably headed down a dark road for the next two or three years. Bad Karma and bad teams don't mix. Do you think Bowe won't be clamoring to be traded or WILL be traded should things get bad in KC?Let's look at the negatives for KC:1 - The way they are dealing with Trent Green. Other vets see that and don't like it. They aren't gonna want to hang around a club that jerks their vets around like they are. You've already had Waters coming out and saying he doesn't agree with it.2 - Why is it none of their young stars wanna hang around? Jared Allen, LJ, even Gonzalez was trying to find a way out. It's not good if your core of players is unhappy.3 - O-line in decline.4 - QB's in question.5 - Defensive secondary getting old (not counting young safeties).6 - Ownership/GM possibly in flux?7 - Plays on an offense that runs the ball 500 times a year Now the positives in KC that may benefit Bowe:1 - The WR's are either old or suck.The negatives for Meachem in NO:1 - Surrounded by alot of YOUNG talent and may have to settle for #3 or #4 to begin with.Now the positives in NO:1 - Young and bright, players head coach.2 - Loaded with YOUNG talent.3 - Barring injury, QB stability.4 - Good O-line5 - Not a very good defense which means the offense will be on the field alot.6 - Plays on an offense that is balanced, if not likes to throw the ball more than run it.So I don't like Meachem just for this year. If he keeps his head on straight and plays to his ability, I think his future is much brighter than Bowe's.But that is just my perspective. I think they are both solid talents...I just give Meachem the long term advantage.
good WRs can be productive on bad teams.
despite a mess at QB and not much at WR, KC still managed to put up 3243 passing yards and 21 TDs.
as a comparison, the Giants had Eli Manning at QB plus Burress, Shockey and Tiki as weapons in the passing game and managed to put up 3244 passing yards and 24 TDs.
there are plenty of yards and TDs in the KC offense for Bowe to outproduce Meachem.
despite a mess at QB and not much at WR, KC still managed to put up 3243 passing yards and 21 TDs.
as a comparison, the Giants had Eli Manning at QB plus Burress, Shockey and Tiki as weapons in the passing game and managed to put up 3244 passing yards and 24 TDs.
there are plenty of yards and TDs in the KC offense for Bowe to outproduce Meachem.
Thom Yorke
Footballguy
A few reasons:1. When recently asked in a press conference about wide receivers, Patten was the first name out of Payton's mouth, as he stated that Patten would be at split end. He later implied that Henderson was competing with Patten for that job. 2. The team is not terribly happy with Devery Henderson. There are even rumblings that he will not be on the Saints roster this year unless he has a great camp. You should also keep in mind that Henderson is a Haslett guy, i.e. all measurables, but little in the way of football IQ and work ethic. This front office would be quite happy to deal a guy like that to some WR-starved team for a draft pick or for a player who would fill a need at another position, a la Donte Stallworth.3. Patten brings a veteran presence to the WR core that it sorely lacks. Colston, Copper, and Henderson are all 25 years old or younger. I also expect the Saints to bring Meachem along slowly, and allow him to work his way into the no. 3 WR role this year. 4. Patten appears to be healthy. His last two campaigns have been marred by injuries which have basically prevented him from seeing the field (particularly in 2006). If he can stay healthy, he has an opportunity to be a part of an extremely explosive offense. More than anything else, I just want to put Patten back on my fellow FBG's radar given the situation down here. I'll be the first to admit that Patten might not contribute at all. However, given that you probably will be able to get him in the last round of your drafts, or in free agency, I think he's worth keeping an eye on. If he does emerge as the #2 in NO, he'll prove to be a very nice value.
thecardiackid
Footballguy
interesting. i did look @ his stats before asking, and he's been on a serious downward trend for the past few years. Admittedly, I didn't know if he was w/ KC or NO
Last year was brutal though - 5 games w/ 4 targets and 1 catch. It wouldn't seem like he'd be a guy to make a serious comeback due to age and injuries, but thx for the nugget. If he can find a way to get on the field in NO - even in a PT role, he'll certainly outperform his ADP. Maybe he'll turn into the bayou version of Bobby Engram (pre-injury).:endhijack:
The Man Who Met Andy Griffith
Footballguy
I have close to zero confidence in my ability to pick WR's, but I have a bad feeling that both Bowe an Meachem will bust. I think that Meachem is a slightly higher bust risk though.
I don't know how you can be happy about a first round WR showing up fat.
I don't know how you can be happy about a first round WR showing up fat.
az_prof
Footballguy
I can't comment on the physical ability of the two as I haven't seen them play enough in college. But my one reason to prefer Meachem is Brees. You can't assume KC will have a better QB or offensive coach in the future. And, right now, I would rather have the WR3 in NO than the WR2 in KC. It's that simple. When is the last time the WR2 in KC has put up decent fantasy numbers? So, worst case scenario that this year Henderson is WR2 and surprisingly Bowe becomes WR2, I still think Meachem will put up comparable numbers. And, the more likely scenario is that Henderson will be gone next year. He is a better slot WR than an everydown WR.
kensat30
Footballguy
Someone wanna tell me who is the QB for Kansas City this year? How about next year? How about the year after that?
Next question, who coaches Kansas City again?
Just go back to the original post and read it again. That right there should be enough for you to place Meachem above Bowe unless you see a very large talent discrepency.
Next question, who coaches Kansas City again?
Just go back to the original post and read it again. That right there should be enough for you to place Meachem above Bowe unless you see a very large talent discrepency.
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
I like Bowe over Meachem and it is not even close. Herm will be gone in a year or two.
ConstruxBoy
Kate's Daddy
"very large" is a bit of an overstatement, but I think the discrepancy is plenty big.
Rev
Footballguy
Colston also showed out of shape for his rookie season in New Orleans, and he didn't do too bad.
cstu
Footballguy
People act like it's a given that Colston will remain the #1 WR for the Saints. It's not out of the question that Meachem could be the #1 by next year.
