Verbal Kint
Footballguy
Finally, aredman said:
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Rudi Johnson (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter turfman
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Verbal Kint
Footballguy
Perry has been electric when he could actually get on the field.LHUCKS said:
Synthesizer
Footballguy
Rudi is like a worst-case RB1 for me. No explosion, no excitement. You tune in every week to watch him creep to 100 total yards and an occasional TD. BORING. He'll keep you in your games but he'll never carry you to a win (or a championship).
redman
Footballguy
Has anyone done any regression analysis of this type, meaning computed as much as possible to what extent Rudi (and other RB's) contributed to championships in FF?
joey
Footballguy
Data point #1: I won a championship last year with Rudi as my RB1.So I guess the word "never" might be a bit extreme.Has anyone done any regression analysis of this type, meaning computed as much as possible to what extent Rudi (and other RB's) contributed to championships in FF?
joffer
Footballguy
also a difference between being on a championship team and carrying a team to the championship. Of all the backs that go for 1300-1400 yards and 12TDs, he might be the least likely to go for 1700-1800 yards and 18TDs.Data point #1: I won a championship last year with Rudi as my RB1.So I guess the word "never" might be a bit extreme.Has anyone done any regression analysis of this type, meaning computed as much as possible to what extent Rudi (and other RB's) contributed to championships in FF?
Where are you getting your contract details as they seem out of date?Palmer: signed a 9-year, $118.75 million contract extension on December 29, 2005.
CJ: On April 20, 2006, Johnson signed a contract extension. The deal, which pays Johnson an additional $35.5 million, will last up to 2011.
Housh: he was rewarded by the Bengals' organization in March of 2005 with a 4-year, $13 million contract and an undisclosed bonus.
This is somewhat misleading as they selected Perry in the 2004 draft before Rudi was the full time starter. The Bengals were coming off a year where Rudi had filled in splitting time for an injured and headcase Dillon and they had no idea what they had in Rudi. They certainly didn't feel confident going into the season with only a 4th round pick with only a half season experience as their only RB. But if they were dissatisfied with Rudi's performance, then why give him a 5yr, 26M contract extension with 12M guaranteed the year AFTER they drafted Perry? Link Compare this to contracts this year like Willis McGahee who got 7yrs, $32M, 14M guaranteed this past offseason (much of the total contract being backloaded) or Travis Henry who got 5yrs, 22.5M & 12M guaranteed. Also take into account Rudi signed his extension 2 years ago BEFORE the new CBA and the salary cap increase.redman said:
I can't argue with the defense comment, but Rudi isn't even acceptable? An unhappy Dillon was traded to the New England Patriots after the 2003 season and Rudi Johnson was named the starter. He did not disappoint, starting every game and setting a franchise rushing record with 1,454 yards. He also scored 12 touchdowns and was named to the AFC Pro Bowl squad. He later broke that same franchise rushing record the next season. Rudi is the best RB the Bengals have ever had and he's not even acceptable?
Indeed!
Tau837
Footballguy
While I agree with Banger and joffer and would prefer to have a better RB1 than Rudi, this is a great post.
bcr8f
Footballguy
How about a #2 or #3?
FantasyTrader
Footballguy
Wrong.
redman
Footballguy
On the contrary, I think the Bengals knew exactly what they had in Rudi when they drafted Perry in 2004. Rudi had been on that team for two seasons at that point and Marvin had had the benefit of watching him during his busiest year in 2003. Check out his 2003 game-by-game breakdown:
2003+----------+-------------+--------+----+| WK OPP | RSH YD | RECYD | TD |+----------+-------------+--------+----+| 4 cle | 15 51 | 11 | 0 || 5 buf | 20 69 | 10 | 1 || 7 bal | 3 5 | 0 | 0 || 8 sea | 27 101 | 16 | 1 || 9 ari | 8 34 | 0 | 1 || 10 hou | 43 182 | 18 | 2 || 11 kan | 22 165 | 12 | 0 || 12 sdg | 17 55 | 21 | 0 || 13 pit | 10 29 | 4 | 0 || 14 bal | 4 10 | 4 | 0 || 15 sfo | 21 174 | 8 | 2 || 16 stl | 11 30 | 17 | 0 || 17 cle | 14 52 | 25 | 2 |+----------+-------------+--------+----+| TOTAL | 215 957 | 146 | 9 |+----------+-------------+--------+----+What jumps out to me is that the big games he had, against Houston, KC and SF, were three of the lowliest rush defenses in the league at that time. All three were atrocious. In fact, if you take those three games they account for over 54% of his rushing yards on the year and for 4 of his 9 TD's. The rest of the year, in 10 games played, he rushed 129/436/5, for a 3.4 ypc average. Yes, I agree you take the good with the bad, but this divergence in performance against bad versus average and good opposition is simply too stark for Marvin Lewis not to have noticed. Marvin BTW was in Baltimore those years when Priest Holmes had those awesome games against the Bengals and was mediocre against everyone else, and he certainly knew that Priest was a far more dynamic player than Rudi. As for the new contract in 2004, I'm chuckling to myself at someone pointing to the actions of the Bengals front office for support in a discussion. Regardless, Rudi undeniably had a great year and proved to be adequate as the RB for the offense to be run successfully. The Cincy faithful (both of them
) would have protested loudly had the guy who just set the franchise rushing record was not locked up. Let's not forget, though, that Perry had had an injury riddled rookie season with no assurances about what the future held for him.Family Matters
Footballguy
I find your post a bit of a riddle. For the Bengals fans (yes both of us) that witnessed the Rudi contract discussions and drafting of Perry, we felt oddly confused and frustrated in the way it was handled. Dillon wanted out and whinned the entire time so as fans we became enamoured with Rudi as he appeared as a nice surprise to us fans. But when the Bengals didn't get him signed before the draft they decided to play the draft against Rudi and that's when Perry came into the picture. Rudi wanted a long term deal and the Bengals wanted a short term deal and only offered a 1 yr deal. So they drafted Perry just in case and then in May Rudi signed the deal assumming all the risk that a 1 year deal puts on a player. He proceeded to kick butt while Perry hasn't been able to stay healthy.Rudi isn't flashy but he's a solid and reliable back that wears down defenses. Palmer trusts him and he fits in this offense nicely. He may not have all the flash but he's good for top 10 scoring every year he's been the starter. I would expect more of the same from him. And if you can nab him at the end of the round and pair him up with another solid player or maybe even a top WR then you're in pretty good shape.On the contrary, I think the Bengals knew exactly what they had in Rudi when they drafted Perry in 2004. Rudi had been on that team for two seasons at that point and Marvin had had the benefit of watching him during his busiest year in 2003. Check out his 2003 game-by-game breakdown:
2003+----------+-------------+--------+----+| WK OPP | RSH YD | RECYD | TD |+----------+-------------+--------+----+| 4 cle | 15 51 | 11 | 0 || 5 buf | 20 69 | 10 | 1 || 7 bal | 3 5 | 0 | 0 || 8 sea | 27 101 | 16 | 1 || 9 ari | 8 34 | 0 | 1 || 10 hou | 43 182 | 18 | 2 || 11 kan | 22 165 | 12 | 0 || 12 sdg | 17 55 | 21 | 0 || 13 pit | 10 29 | 4 | 0 || 14 bal | 4 10 | 4 | 0 || 15 sfo | 21 174 | 8 | 2 || 16 stl | 11 30 | 17 | 0 || 17 cle | 14 52 | 25 | 2 |+----------+-------------+--------+----+| TOTAL | 215 957 | 146 | 9 |+----------+-------------+--------+----+What jumps out to me is that the big games he had, against Houston, KC and SF, were three of the lowliest rush defenses in the league at that time. All three were atrocious. In fact, if you take those three games they account for over 54% of his rushing yards on the year and for 4 of his 9 TD's. The rest of the year, in 10 games played, he rushed 129/436/5, for a 3.4 ypc average. Yes, I agree you take the good with the bad, but this divergence in performance against bad versus average and good opposition is simply too stark for Marvin Lewis not to have noticed. Marvin BTW was in Baltimore those years when Priest Holmes had those awesome games against the Bengals and was mediocre against everyone else, and he certainly knew that Priest was a far more dynamic player than Rudi. As for the new contract in 2004, I'm chuckling to myself at someone pointing to the actions of the Bengals front office for support in a discussion. Regardless, Rudi undeniably had a great year and proved to be adequate as the RB for the offense to be run successfully. The Cincy faithful (both of them) would have protested loudly had the guy who just set the franchise rushing record was not locked up. Let's not forget, though, that Perry had had an injury riddled rookie season with no assurances about what the future held for him.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
I'll agree with this.....I had him last year and watched a lot of Bengal games and found myself bored with a RB1 who is not explosive at all. Yes he is consistant but I don't believe many with him last year won leagues.I don't really understand this whole "few people will win leagues with Rudi" argument. Last I checked, a fantasy team was made up of more than 1 RB. How many teams won with Ronnie Brown last year? Or Edge? Or Caddy? Or Portis? Or Lamont Jordan? All of those guys had similar ADP to Rudi last year. I'm sure your team was a lot better off with Rudi than any of those guys just mentioned.
Family Matters
Footballguy
I ahve to agree with your questioning of this statement. It takes a total team to win championships. Rudi could easily be a part of a winning championship.You have to ask yourself thsi
o I get excited about my players or do I get excited about winning championships? Losing makes all my players look boring.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
For the record, I only have Rudi in 1 of 6 leagues, so it's not like I'm attached to him that much, but the voice of reason is mostly absent in this thread. Rudi is still relatively young and should remain productive for at least two or three more years. There's no reason given that changes my mind otherwise. He's not a great RB #1, but he is a great RB #2. He went 2.07 in a recent inaugural dynasty draft (ppr for wr and te only), which is great value IMO.
Brutis
Footballguy
I can understand Rudi dropping to the mid to late 2nd in a ppr dynasty league but what about a non ppr redraft league? I would think he would be pretty good value at the end of rd1 in a 12 team league.
redman
Footballguy
Your post is not inconsistent with mine. To be clear here, I'm not bashing Rudi. I admire the tough, disciplined way he goes about his business. That's a different statement, however, from saying that he's so talented that the Bengals won't look for a replacement for him even before he's out of his prime.Family Matters said:I find your post a bit of a riddle. For the Bengals fans (yes both of us) that witnessed the Rudi contract discussions and drafting of Perry, we felt oddly confused and frustrated in the way it was handled. Dillon wanted out and whinned the entire time so as fans we became enamoured with Rudi as he appeared as a nice surprise to us fans. But when the Bengals didn't get him signed before the draft they decided to play the draft against Rudi and that's when Perry came into the picture. Rudi wanted a long term deal and the Bengals wanted a short term deal and only offered a 1 yr deal. So they drafted Perry just in case and then in May Rudi signed the deal assumming all the risk that a 1 year deal puts on a player. He proceeded to kick butt while Perry hasn't been able to stay healthy.Rudi isn't flashy but he's a solid and reliable back that wears down defenses. Palmer trusts him and he fits in this offense nicely. He may not have all the flash but he's good for top 10 scoring every year he's been the starter. I would expect more of the same from him. And if you can nab him at the end of the round and pair him up with another solid player or maybe even a top WR then you're in pretty good shape.redman said:On the contrary, I think the Bengals knew exactly what they had in Rudi when they drafted Perry in 2004. Rudi had been on that team for two seasons at that point and Marvin had had the benefit of watching him during his busiest year in 2003. Check out his 2003 game-by-game breakdown:Just Win Baby said:
2003+----------+-------------+--------+----+| WK OPP | RSH YD | RECYD | TD |+----------+-------------+--------+----+| 4 cle | 15 51 | 11 | 0 || 5 buf | 20 69 | 10 | 1 || 7 bal | 3 5 | 0 | 0 || 8 sea | 27 101 | 16 | 1 || 9 ari | 8 34 | 0 | 1 || 10 hou | 43 182 | 18 | 2 || 11 kan | 22 165 | 12 | 0 || 12 sdg | 17 55 | 21 | 0 || 13 pit | 10 29 | 4 | 0 || 14 bal | 4 10 | 4 | 0 || 15 sfo | 21 174 | 8 | 2 || 16 stl | 11 30 | 17 | 0 || 17 cle | 14 52 | 25 | 2 |+----------+-------------+--------+----+| TOTAL | 215 957 | 146 | 9 |+----------+-------------+--------+----+What jumps out to me is that the big games he had, against Houston, KC and SF, were three of the lowliest rush defenses in the league at that time. All three were atrocious. In fact, if you take those three games they account for over 54% of his rushing yards on the year and for 4 of his 9 TD's. The rest of the year, in 10 games played, he rushed 129/436/5, for a 3.4 ypc average. Yes, I agree you take the good with the bad, but this divergence in performance against bad versus average and good opposition is simply too stark for Marvin Lewis not to have noticed. Marvin BTW was in Baltimore those years when Priest Holmes had those awesome games against the Bengals and was mediocre against everyone else, and he certainly knew that Priest was a far more dynamic player than Rudi. As for the new contract in 2004, I'm chuckling to myself at someone pointing to the actions of the Bengals front office for support in a discussion. Regardless, Rudi undeniably had a great year and proved to be adequate as the RB for the offense to be run successfully. The Cincy faithful (both of them
JohnnyU
Footballguy
That wasn't a PPR league for RBs, just WR and TE only get 0.5 ppr. The league I'm talking about is Fantasy Legends III dynasty league. I would expect Rudi to go a little earlier than 2.07 in a redraft league.Brutis said:I can understand Rudi dropping to the mid to late 2nd in a ppr dynasty league but what about a non ppr redraft league? I would think he would be pretty good value at the end of rd1 in a 12 team league.JohnnyU said:Buckna said:For the record, I only have Rudi in 1 of 6 leagues, so it's not like I'm attached to him that much, but the voice of reason is mostly absent in this thread. Rudi is still relatively young and should remain productive for at least two or three more years. There's no reason given that changes my mind otherwise. He's not a great RB #1, but he is a great RB #2. He went 2.07 in a recent inaugural dynasty draft (ppr for wr and te only), which is great value IMO.
TheLastDispatch
Footballguy
The Scientist said:I'll agree with this.....I had him last year and watched a lot of Bengal games and found myself bored with a RB1 who is not explosive at all. Yes he is consistant but I don't believe many with him last year won leagues.
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sho nuff
Footballguy
At the same time...Rudi most likely will not burn you like some other backs (ask the Ronnie Brown and Cadillac owners last year)
sho nuff
Footballguy
San Fran was ranked 9th in rushing yards allowed and 18th in rushing TDs allowed that year. Not really atrocious.KC was bad for sure...as was Houston.redman said:On the contrary, I think the Bengals knew exactly what they had in Rudi when they drafted Perry in 2004. Rudi had been on that team for two seasons at that point and Marvin had had the benefit of watching him during his busiest year in 2003. Check out his 2003 game-by-game breakdown:Just Win Baby said:
2003+----------+-------------+--------+----+| WK OPP | RSH YD | RECYD | TD |+----------+-------------+--------+----+| 4 cle | 15 51 | 11 | 0 || 5 buf | 20 69 | 10 | 1 || 7 bal | 3 5 | 0 | 0 || 8 sea | 27 101 | 16 | 1 || 9 ari | 8 34 | 0 | 1 || 10 hou | 43 182 | 18 | 2 || 11 kan | 22 165 | 12 | 0 || 12 sdg | 17 55 | 21 | 0 || 13 pit | 10 29 | 4 | 0 || 14 bal | 4 10 | 4 | 0 || 15 sfo | 21 174 | 8 | 2 || 16 stl | 11 30 | 17 | 0 || 17 cle | 14 52 | 25 | 2 |+----------+-------------+--------+----+| TOTAL | 215 957 | 146 | 9 |+----------+-------------+--------+----+What jumps out to me is that the big games he had, against Houston, KC and SF, were three of the lowliest rush defenses in the league at that time. All three were atrocious. In fact, if you take those three games they account for over 54% of his rushing yards on the year and for 4 of his 9 TD's. The rest of the year, in 10 games played, he rushed 129/436/5, for a 3.4 ypc average. Yes, I agree you take the good with the bad, but this divergence in performance against bad versus average and good opposition is simply too stark for Marvin Lewis not to have noticed. Marvin BTW was in Baltimore those years when Priest Holmes had those awesome games against the Bengals and was mediocre against everyone else, and he certainly knew that Priest was a far more dynamic player than Rudi. As for the new contract in 2004, I'm chuckling to myself at someone pointing to the actions of the Bengals front office for support in a discussion. Regardless, Rudi undeniably had a great year and proved to be adequate as the RB for the offense to be run successfully. The Cincy faithful (both of them
And I notice you ignore his game against Seattle, who were ranked 14th in rushing yards against and 5th in rushing TDs against.
And guys will play against weak defenses every year...so I always hate that attempt at knocking what a guy does.
"if you take away this run or this game...he was just so-so". Well, sorry, in FF, we don't take away games against weak opponents.
joey
Footballguy
Re: redraft...The question is: who would you take before him and how much risk/reward can you handle?Of course, LT, SJax and LJ go before him. But then, there's question marks for almost allthe other RB1-type guys:Gore, SAlex, Westbrook, Maroney - healthAddai - can he carry the load?Parker - coaching changeHenry - the Shannarat factorA case can be made that Rudi could go as high as 1.06. I'm not saying that that'swhere I have him ranked but a case can be made for someone selecting him that high.Heck, at 1.04, you couldgo Rudi/Holt/Wayne (or something like that) in the first 3 roundsand have a pretty "bust-proof" start to your team.Brutis said:
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Family Matters
Footballguy
Got it. Thanks for clarifying. What the Bengals and some other organizations do is look to replace rather than pay big contracts. So I wouldn't be surprised to see the Bengals do that again.Your post is not inconsistent with mine. To be clear here, I'm not bashing Rudi. I admire the tough, disciplined way he goes about his business. That's a different statement, however, from saying that he's so talented that the Bengals won't look for a replacement for him even before he's out of his prime.Family Matters said:I find your post a bit of a riddle. For the Bengals fans (yes both of us) that witnessed the Rudi contract discussions and drafting of Perry, we felt oddly confused and frustrated in the way it was handled. Dillon wanted out and whinned the entire time so as fans we became enamoured with Rudi as he appeared as a nice surprise to us fans. But when the Bengals didn't get him signed before the draft they decided to play the draft against Rudi and that's when Perry came into the picture. Rudi wanted a long term deal and the Bengals wanted a short term deal and only offered a 1 yr deal. So they drafted Perry just in case and then in May Rudi signed the deal assumming all the risk that a 1 year deal puts on a player. He proceeded to kick butt while Perry hasn't been able to stay healthy.Rudi isn't flashy but he's a solid and reliable back that wears down defenses. Palmer trusts him and he fits in this offense nicely. He may not have all the flash but he's good for top 10 scoring every year he's been the starter. I would expect more of the same from him. And if you can nab him at the end of the round and pair him up with another solid player or maybe even a top WR then you're in pretty good shape.redman said:On the contrary, I think the Bengals knew exactly what they had in Rudi when they drafted Perry in 2004. Rudi had been on that team for two seasons at that point and Marvin had had the benefit of watching him during his busiest year in 2003. Check out his 2003 game-by-game breakdown:Just Win Baby said:
2003+----------+-------------+--------+----+| WK OPP | RSH YD | RECYD | TD |+----------+-------------+--------+----+| 4 cle | 15 51 | 11 | 0 || 5 buf | 20 69 | 10 | 1 || 7 bal | 3 5 | 0 | 0 || 8 sea | 27 101 | 16 | 1 || 9 ari | 8 34 | 0 | 1 || 10 hou | 43 182 | 18 | 2 || 11 kan | 22 165 | 12 | 0 || 12 sdg | 17 55 | 21 | 0 || 13 pit | 10 29 | 4 | 0 || 14 bal | 4 10 | 4 | 0 || 15 sfo | 21 174 | 8 | 2 || 16 stl | 11 30 | 17 | 0 || 17 cle | 14 52 | 25 | 2 |+----------+-------------+--------+----+| TOTAL | 215 957 | 146 | 9 |+----------+-------------+--------+----+What jumps out to me is that the big games he had, against Houston, KC and SF, were three of the lowliest rush defenses in the league at that time. All three were atrocious. In fact, if you take those three games they account for over 54% of his rushing yards on the year and for 4 of his 9 TD's. The rest of the year, in 10 games played, he rushed 129/436/5, for a 3.4 ypc average. Yes, I agree you take the good with the bad, but this divergence in performance against bad versus average and good opposition is simply too stark for Marvin Lewis not to have noticed. Marvin BTW was in Baltimore those years when Priest Holmes had those awesome games against the Bengals and was mediocre against everyone else, and he certainly knew that Priest was a far more dynamic player than Rudi. As for the new contract in 2004, I'm chuckling to myself at someone pointing to the actions of the Bengals front office for support in a discussion. Regardless, Rudi undeniably had a great year and proved to be adequate as the RB for the offense to be run successfully. The Cincy faithful (both of them
Keysersoze666
Footballguy
To Family Matters, Buckna and Redman ....
Everyone on this board looks for knowledgable "homers" to give insight on their local team. You guys should be paying attention to what both Family Matters and Buckna are saying about the Bengals (you beat me to the Contract sillyness, Buckna). I live in Dayton, 50 miles from the Cincy and I follow the Bengals as my 2nd Favorite team ... Go Packers! But I grew up here and have followed the Bengals since their inception. Redman, you have some good points and I enjoy your posts but I do have one major disagreement which I'll address here.
Point #1) Cincy plays in a division KNOWN for tough defense and late season BAD-weather games in four OUTDOOR stadiums. The successful teams that win this division ALWAYS have the ability to run the ball.
Point #2) Family Matters has Rudi's eary days pegged. He was not signed when they drafted Perry and the Bengals had to protect themselves. I was at the stadium at the Draft party and the crowd BOOOED when Perry was selected. First, he was a Michigan player in an Ohio State town AND the Bengals needed CB's and passed on Ohio State's Chris Gamble. Gamble would STILL be a starter here and the Bengals also traded down and COULD have taken Stephen Jackson if they had rated him higher than Perry.
Point #3) RISK. Marvin Lewis wanted to mold the Bengals in the image of the Raven team he left. The defense did not respond early (or ever, actually) but Rudi did. He got the tough yards, never fumbled, showed up in every practice and every game and his workman-like, team first attitude was EXACTLY what the Bengals franchise needed. It was the polar opposite of Dillon, who was ridden out-of-town on a rail because of his attitude. Rudi was among the first pieces of the Bengals puzzle to emerge that Marvin could DEPEND on.
Point #4) RISK again. The Bengal passing attack emerged quickly giving the Bengals explosiveness. This attack utililizes it's WRs way more than RB's or TEs. They didn't need explosiveness at RB, they needed tough first-down yards, yards after contact, protect the ball, short yardage effort and red-zone efficiency. The fact that the player giving you all of this is an EXAMPLE in the locker room, and a Fan FAVORITE to boot ... sign me up! (I will admit to fantasizing ... IMAGINE if the Bengals had taken Stephen Jackson!).
Point #5) Rudi himself. He went to Junior College and his sophmore year, in the Jr. College Championship game ... against the #1 defense in the country, he put up over 300 yards and scored SEVEN touchdowns in a Championship for his team. He went to Auburn, wasn't guaranteed to be a starter, won the job, ran for over 1400 yards and double-digit TD's and was the SEC Offensive Player of the Year. He went pro as a junior to support his family, sat behind Corey Dillon (who was great in Cincy) but the FIRST time he got a chance to play, he produced. He made Dillon expendable and has done everything asked of him. Underestimating Rudi has been a losing proposition for a LONG time.
Point #6) The Team Puzzle. Rudi is a perfect fit in the Cincy offense. His skills allow the Bengals to hatch innovative passing gameplans with little risk in their running game. He can grind out wins in the 4th quarter with a lead. I won't argue that Stephen Jackson wouldn't be great here, he has power AND explosiveness. However, Rudi is better for the Bengals than a more explosive back who has few of his attributes listed above.
Redman, I would argue that given his situation, Rudi is a better NFL back than a fantasy back. As mentioned before, he loses value in PPR leagues, though he is viable in non-PPR leagues. He does leave the field on many obvious 3rd and longs ... but most NFL backs do, 3 down backs are rare indeed. His additions to his team in REAL-life far surpass his additions in fantasy. On a team with many questionable "characters", Rudi has maximized his physical skills while being a player and teammate that EVERYONE can depend on. In my mind, the fact that he has Maximized his physical talents puts him in a different league than most NFL players. I agree that 2-3 years is probably the window for Rudi and he will go down as an all-time great Bengal. I can see the knocks on Rudi as a fantasy #1 in many leagues but knocking him as an NFL back is simply missing the point.
Everyone on this board looks for knowledgable "homers" to give insight on their local team. You guys should be paying attention to what both Family Matters and Buckna are saying about the Bengals (you beat me to the Contract sillyness, Buckna). I live in Dayton, 50 miles from the Cincy and I follow the Bengals as my 2nd Favorite team ... Go Packers!
But I grew up here and have followed the Bengals since their inception. Redman, you have some good points and I enjoy your posts but I do have one major disagreement which I'll address here.Point #1) Cincy plays in a division KNOWN for tough defense and late season BAD-weather games in four OUTDOOR stadiums. The successful teams that win this division ALWAYS have the ability to run the ball.
Point #2) Family Matters has Rudi's eary days pegged. He was not signed when they drafted Perry and the Bengals had to protect themselves. I was at the stadium at the Draft party and the crowd BOOOED when Perry was selected. First, he was a Michigan player in an Ohio State town AND the Bengals needed CB's and passed on Ohio State's Chris Gamble. Gamble would STILL be a starter here and the Bengals also traded down and COULD have taken Stephen Jackson if they had rated him higher than Perry.
Point #3) RISK. Marvin Lewis wanted to mold the Bengals in the image of the Raven team he left. The defense did not respond early (or ever, actually) but Rudi did. He got the tough yards, never fumbled, showed up in every practice and every game and his workman-like, team first attitude was EXACTLY what the Bengals franchise needed. It was the polar opposite of Dillon, who was ridden out-of-town on a rail because of his attitude. Rudi was among the first pieces of the Bengals puzzle to emerge that Marvin could DEPEND on.
Point #4) RISK again. The Bengal passing attack emerged quickly giving the Bengals explosiveness. This attack utililizes it's WRs way more than RB's or TEs. They didn't need explosiveness at RB, they needed tough first-down yards, yards after contact, protect the ball, short yardage effort and red-zone efficiency. The fact that the player giving you all of this is an EXAMPLE in the locker room, and a Fan FAVORITE to boot ... sign me up! (I will admit to fantasizing ... IMAGINE if the Bengals had taken Stephen Jackson!).
Point #5) Rudi himself. He went to Junior College and his sophmore year, in the Jr. College Championship game ... against the #1 defense in the country, he put up over 300 yards and scored SEVEN touchdowns in a Championship for his team. He went to Auburn, wasn't guaranteed to be a starter, won the job, ran for over 1400 yards and double-digit TD's and was the SEC Offensive Player of the Year. He went pro as a junior to support his family, sat behind Corey Dillon (who was great in Cincy) but the FIRST time he got a chance to play, he produced. He made Dillon expendable and has done everything asked of him. Underestimating Rudi has been a losing proposition for a LONG time.
Point #6) The Team Puzzle. Rudi is a perfect fit in the Cincy offense. His skills allow the Bengals to hatch innovative passing gameplans with little risk in their running game. He can grind out wins in the 4th quarter with a lead. I won't argue that Stephen Jackson wouldn't be great here, he has power AND explosiveness. However, Rudi is better for the Bengals than a more explosive back who has few of his attributes listed above.
Redman, I would argue that given his situation, Rudi is a better NFL back than a fantasy back. As mentioned before, he loses value in PPR leagues, though he is viable in non-PPR leagues. He does leave the field on many obvious 3rd and longs ... but most NFL backs do, 3 down backs are rare indeed. His additions to his team in REAL-life far surpass his additions in fantasy. On a team with many questionable "characters", Rudi has maximized his physical skills while being a player and teammate that EVERYONE can depend on. In my mind, the fact that he has Maximized his physical talents puts him in a different league than most NFL players. I agree that 2-3 years is probably the window for Rudi and he will go down as an all-time great Bengal. I can see the knocks on Rudi as a fantasy #1 in many leagues but knocking him as an NFL back is simply missing the point.
One of the best posts of the summer.Keysersoze666 said:To Family Matters, Buckna and Redman ....Everyone on this board looks for knowledgable "homers" to give insight on their local team. You guys should be paying attention to what both Family Matters and Buckna are saying about the Bengals (you beat me to the Contract sillyness, Buckna). I live in Dayton, 50 miles from the Cincy and I follow the Bengals as my 2nd Favorite team ... Go Packers!But I grew up here and have followed the Bengals since their inception. Redman, you have some good points and I enjoy your posts but I do have one major disagreement which I'll address here.Point #1) Cincy plays in a division KNOWN for tough defense and late season BAD-weather games in four OUTDOOR stadiums. The successful teams that win this division ALWAYS have the ability to run the ball.Point #2) Family Matters has Rudi's eary days pegged. He was not signed when they drafted Perry and the Bengals had to protect themselves. I was at the stadium at the Draft party and the crowd BOOOED when Perry was selected. First, he was a Michigan player in an Ohio State town AND the Bengals needed CB's and passed on Ohio State's Chris Gamble. Gamble would STILL be a starter here and the Bengals also traded down and COULD have taken Stephen Jackson if they had rated him higher than Perry.Point #3) RISK. Marvin Lewis wanted to mold the Bengals in the image of the Raven team he left. The defense did not respond early (or ever, actually) but Rudi did. He got the tough yards, never fumbled, showed up in every practice and every game and his workman-like, team first attitude was EXACTLY what the Bengals franchise needed. It was the polar opposite of Dillon, who was ridden out-of-town on a rail because of his attitude. Rudi was among the first pieces of the Bengals puzzle to emerge that Marvin could DEPEND on.Point #4) RISK again. The Bengal passing attack emerged quickly giving the Bengals explosiveness. This attack utililizes it's WRs way more than RB's or TEs. They didn't need explosiveness at RB, they needed tough first-down yards, yards after contact, protect the ball, short yardage effort and red-zone efficiency. The fact that the player giving you all of this is an EXAMPLE in the locker room, and a Fan FAVORITE to boot ... sign me up! (I will admit to fantasizing ... IMAGINE if the Bengals had taken Stephen Jackson!).Point #5) Rudi himself. He went to Junior College and his sophmore year, in the Jr. College Championship game ... against the #1 defense in the country, he put up over 300 yards and scored SEVEN touchdowns in a Championship for his team. He went to Auburn, wasn't guaranteed to be a starter, won the job, ran for over 1400 yards and double-digit TD's and was the SEC Offensive Player of the Year. He went pro as a junior to support his family, sat behind Corey Dillon (who was great in Cincy) but the FIRST time he got a chance to play, he produced. He made Dillon expendable and has done everything asked of him. Underestimating Rudi has been a losing proposition for a LONG time.Point #6) The Team Puzzle. Rudi is a perfect fit in the Cincy offense. His skills allow the Bengals to hatch innovative passing gameplans with little risk in their running game. He can grind out wins in the 4th quarter with a lead. I won't argue that Stephen Jackson wouldn't be great here, he has power AND explosiveness. However, Rudi is better for the Bengals than a more explosive back who has few of his attributes listed above.Redman, I would argue that given his situation, Rudi is a better NFL back than a fantasy back. As mentioned before, he loses value in PPR leagues, though he is viable in non-PPR leagues. He does leave the field on many obvious 3rd and longs ... but most NFL backs do, 3 down backs are rare indeed. His additions to his team in REAL-life far surpass his additions in fantasy. On a team with many questionable "characters", Rudi has maximized his physical skills while being a player and teammate that EVERYONE can depend on. In my mind, the fact that he has Maximized his physical talents puts him in a different league than most NFL players. I agree that 2-3 years is probably the window for Rudi and he will go down as an all-time great Bengal. I can see the knocks on Rudi as a fantasy #1 in many leagues but knocking him as an NFL back is simply missing the point.
Keysersoze666
Footballguy
Thanks guys, one thing I love most about this site are the knowledgable homers who know every detail of their team(s) and are willing to share it for no gain, except to add to the community knowledge. I figure it's always worth sticking up for the ones who do know, so they'll keep posting.
Peyton Marino
Footballguy
Yes, Rudi has maximized his physical skills, but that doesn't make him better than more talented NFL RBs.I'm very greatful for what Rudi's done for the Bengals. When Corey Dillon constantly brought this team down with his attitude and was on his way out, Rudi stepped in and picked up right where Dillon left off. But as far as being a great NFL RB, I don't think he is. I think there's a lot of NFL RBs that would put up better numbers in this offense. Also, I'm not sure what you're getting at with the two points I quoted above. On point No. 4, the Bengals might not need explosiveness at RB, but it certainly would benefit them. Sure, Rudi helps the offense by getting tough first down yards and the like, but there's a lot of RBs out there that can do that. The Bengals would benefit much more IMO from a RB as explosive as their passing attack, as would all teams. And on point No. 6, an explosive RB would probably benefit the Bengals passing attack more than a safe RB, IMO. Explosive doesn't automatically mean risky. But to each his own I guess.
Family Matters
Footballguy
Thanks guys, one thing I love most about this site are the knowledgable homers who know every detail of their team(s) and are willing to share it for no gain, except to add to the community knowledge. I figure it's always worth sticking up for the ones who do know, so they'll keep posting.
You da man.Family Matters
Footballguy
I can appreciate where you are coming from on this. Not sure as a fan I feel they need a better RB. They had one in Dillon and I was glad to see him go. Better talent doesn't always mean better fit. As has been pointed out, Rudi is a great fit in this offense. Think about how he diversifies this offense. The flash comes from the passing attack. Palmer and Co and beat you for 6 in 1 play. But sometimes you need a grind it out guy like Rudi to wear down defenses. In the rough and tumble North with the Steelers and Ravens tough D's, guys like Rudi are gold. He keeps the run D honest and that allows for the big play of Palmer and Co to work well at times. OTOH-the passing game opens up room for Rudi. Also, Rudi's ability to help sustain drives helps our woefully weak defense at times by giving them a rest.So I will agree that Rudi isn't flashly but he is very reliable and willing to pound defenses into submission. He's fine with his role. He wants to be here. He's worked hard to get where he is and he's earned the respect of the NFL and Bengal fans. And while FF owners may not feel enamoured with him, as a Bengal fan I'm glad he's on our team.
redman
Footballguy
Agreed. Thanks for the very detailed post, keyser.One of the best posts of the summer.To Family Matters, Buckna and Redman ....Everyone on this board looks for knowledgable "homers" to give insight on their local team. You guys should be paying attention to what both Family Matters and Buckna are saying about the Bengals (you beat me to the Contract sillyness, Buckna). I live in Dayton, 50 miles from the Cincy and I follow the Bengals as my 2nd Favorite team ... Go Packers!
Keysersoze666
Footballguy
Hey Peyton ... I agree with Family Matters, you make valid points and I understand what you mean. Remember, I fantasized about Stephen Jackson in the Bengal offense in that post above, whom the Bengals could have had.I never said Rudi was a Great NFL back. I do think he is a Great Puzzle Piece in the Bengal offense; units in the NFL are pieced together one component at a time. Rudi is NOT the Bengal's problem, on offense, with his attitude, with Anything! In the AFC North division, having Rudi on bad fields, sometimes in bad weather, with a lead in the 4th quarter, when it's 3rd and 2 or 3, anytime in the Red Zone ... add all that up and Rudi is the perfect complement to a high-octane passing attack. EVERY first-down RESETS one of the most potent passing attacks in the league. I also question your assertion that there are LOTS of NFL backs that have all of Rudi's qualities, I agree there are some but a lot?Would it be fun to think of a healthy Chris Perry or a guy like Kevin Jones in this offense? Sure, but on 3rd and TWO or THREE against Baltimore AT Baltimore in December, the safeties are not forced to commit to the run with those guys. Watch where they line up with Rudi in the game. If you have a tough between-the-tackles runner like Rudi, every split-second a safety spends "thinking" run gives Carson Palmer an edge he's proven he can exploit. Shade a safety towards CJ, the other has to at least respect the run and guess what, TJ CANNOT be double-covered. I agree with your point that explosiveness does not always mean risky, but players like Reggie Bush and Brian Westbrook would not fulfill the role Rudi does on the Bengal's offense. (And I love both of those guys!) Besides if you had those players you'd be looking for a short-yardage specialist to compliment them, a totally different team dynamic.I actually think we aren't that far apart in our thinking, it's great to fantasize about a more explosive player in Rudi's spot, but we both admire what he does for the team. Given the Bengal's current team makeup, any idea of a Super Bowl trip have Nothing to do with Rudi's role, there are numerous other team holes that gape wider than Rudi's lack of explosiveness.One last point, Rudi's best season was ALSO Perry's best season, a GOOD change-of-pace back helps, not hurts Rudi's value and performance. Thanks for the great conversation.
Wadsworth
Footballguy
5-1, thanks for asking.
Rudi owner and 6-0. That's 6 wins, zero losses. Leading the league in points by a mile, and have an all-play record of 62-4. So yeah, he got hurt. Big deal, so have a ton of other guys. That doesn't mean he sucks. As I said in another thread, I'll gladly take him in 2008 at what will undoubtedly be his lowest ADP in years.
Mr. Mojo
Footballguy
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and then.
I am also 5-1. I had the 12th pick in a 14 team league and there's no way I could pass up on Rudi at that spot. Yeah he's underwhelmed for me but I rely on my drafting to hopefully overcome for some rough play by one of your starters. I followed up my RJ pick with, not in particular order, Palmer as my QB, ADP as my second RB, Randy Moss as my WR. I also have for fill ins Shockey, Booker, and DJax. My K is kicking ###, Stover. I have scored the second most points in my league.
MCguidance
Footballguy
You gambled and won, I am impressed by that. You took ADP and Moss which is probably pretty rare to have on the same team, nice job
Mr. Know-It-All
Footballguy
I have Rudi and am sitting at 5-1 (2-0 in division) with the highest scoring team in the league by a long shot. That has nothing to do with Rudi and more to do with Tom Brady and some hellacious IDP performers.
Kirby
Footballguy
Dislocated ankle. He's allowed to practice Wednesday, but the Bengals aren't saying anything.
Frank Black
Footballguy
Are you getting the response that you expected?turfman said:
