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Interesting "Rooney Rule" stipulation (1 Viewer)

Raider Nation

Raider Nation

Devil's Advocate
Indy's new "assistant head coach" Jim Caldwell had it written into his contract that he will be the next HC of the Colts when Dungy steps down. It had been thought by almost everyone that this clause could not legally be written into a coaching contract due to the Rooney Rule. Most everyone then assumed that it would fly in this particular case because Caldwell happens to be black, thus eliminating the need to go through a dog-and-pony show with other minority candidates who have no realistic shot at the gig.

Well, John Clayton today said he just learned of a condition in the wording of the Rooney Rule which gives teams the right to put a clause into the contract of a coach who is already on staff stating that he will be the next head coach. Clayton admitted that he was unaware of this clause prior to yesterday. First I've heard of it also. As long as the person in question is already in the organization, he can be promised the head coaching job in the future without any further regard for the Rooney Rule, and the team won't be penalized.

This means that Seahawks assisant coach Jim Mora, despite being white, can indeed have it written into his contract that he will replace Mike Holmgren next season. I suspect that's exactly what happened, since Mora pulled his name from consideration for the Redskins HC job.

 
Seems to be the recent trend. However, I'm not sure if it really means anything: see Gregg Williams in D.C.

It's about time the Rooney Rule was eliminated from the rulebook anyway. The dog and pony show is lame and if an owner has their guy already, so be it. If an owner won't hire the best people they'll eventually get what they deserve anyway.

 
trader jake said:
It's about time the Rooney Rule was eliminated from the rulebook anyway. The dog and pony show is lame and if an owner has their guy already, so be it.
Click to expand...
This is where I used to come down, but I now disagree and I'll tell you why.I used to feel it was insulting to the black coaches who would interview for jobs knowing they had no prayer of being hired. But then I heard Mike Tomlin talking about how even though some black coaches go into an interview fully realizing they won't get THAT particular job they're there for, the interview process opened doors for them in the future as far as being recommended to other teams (by the one they just interviewed with), and it helped that they had experience in the interview process itself. Each time, they are more prepared.

 
Raider Nation said:
trader jake said:
It's about time the Rooney Rule was eliminated from the rulebook anyway. The dog and pony show is lame and if an owner has their guy already, so be it.
Click to expand...
This is where I used to come down, but I now disagree and I'll tell you why.I used to feel it was insulting to the black coaches who would interview for jobs knowing they had no prayer of being hired. But then I heard Mike Tomlin talking about how even though some black coaches go into an interview fully realizing they won't get THAT particular job they're there for, the interview process opened doors for them in the future as far as being recommended to other teams (by the one they just interviewed with), and it helped that they had experience in the interview process itself. Each time, they are more prepared.
Click to expand...
Dude, you're SUPPOSED go on interviews that are for jobs that you know you will never get..thats career searching 101, my friend..just because you don't think you can actually BE an IT manager, doesn't mean you can't go apply for the job..all it takes is one guy to say 'OK', and you're in!the Rooney Rule at least leveled the playing field (somewhat) for black coaches..many of the NFL's owners needed to be made aware of the fact that there are some very good black assistants out there, and its time to start looking at them for HC spots.

 
A few people brought this up last week in regards to Garrett's situation in Dallas and whether the team would be violating the Rooney rule if it hired him as Wade's successor. Does it have to be written into the contract, or is just being on the coaching staff enough?

Of course, for Caldwell the whole issue is moot anyway since he is black. As I understand the Rooney rule, the Colts would be in compliance by hiring him as the next head coach even without interviewing any white candidates for the job.

 
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skillz said:
A few people brought this up last week in regards to Garrett's situation in Dallas and whether the team would be violating the Rooney rule if it hired him as Wade's successor. Does it have to be written into the contract, or is just being on the coaching staff enough?Of course, for Caldwell the whole issue is moot anyway since he is black. As I understand the Rooney rule, the Colts would be in compliance by hiring him as the next head coach even without interviewing any white candidates for the job.
Click to expand...
It has to be in his ORIGINAL contract he signed with the team to satisfy this part of the Rooney Rule. It cannot be added to a subsequent contract and comply with the rule. It was not in Garrett's first contract so even if his new contract has language saying he becomes head coach after Philips the Cowboys would still have to interview minority candidates at that time. Just window dressing to make the NFL happy.
 
Raider Nation said:
I suspect that's exactly what happened, since Mora pulled his name from consideration for the Redskins HC job.
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They just didn't hit it off. That's what I heard(word of mouth) and then I listenned to an interview with him where he talked about Parcells not buying the groceries (as an example of what happens if ya don't see eye to eye) and picking a team he fits in well with. I think he was trying to say he wants to be sure a team is the right fit. That made me believe what I heard was true.Seattle may be that team, you may be right.I'm just saying Washington's FO and him didn't mesh so well in interviews so he pulled his name.
 
Alot of people think this is the case for Jim Mora, because he withdrew his name from the Skins job.

 
I think more white RB's and CB's should be given a chance in the NFL.........we need the Sehorn/Alstott Rule.....just sayin

 
moondog said:
skillz said:
A few people brought this up last week in regards to Garrett's situation in Dallas and whether the team would be violating the Rooney rule if it hired him as Wade's successor. Does it have to be written into the contract, or is just being on the coaching staff enough?Of course, for Caldwell the whole issue is moot anyway since he is black. As I understand the Rooney rule, the Colts would be in compliance by hiring him as the next head coach even without interviewing any white candidates for the job.
Click to expand...
It has to be in his ORIGINAL contract he signed with the team to satisfy this part of the Rooney Rule. It cannot be added to a subsequent contract and comply with the rule. It was not in Garrett's first contract so even if his new contract has language saying he becomes head coach after Philips the Cowboys would still have to interview minority candidates at that time. Just window dressing to make the NFL happy.
Click to expand...
With that said, was the HC job promise written into Mora's original contract? If this is the case where it has to be in the original contract and it is not in his, the Seahawks will have to bring in others to interview for the job next year.
 
Yitbos69 said:
I think more white RB's and CB's should be given a chance in the NFL.........we need the Sehorn/Alstott Rule.....just sayin
Click to expand...
Is that like the "Tom Chambers rule" that got Brent Barry into the NBA Dunk Contest a few years back?
 
Dude, you're SUPPOSED go on interviews that are for jobs that you know you will never get..thats career searching 101, my friend..just because you don't think you can actually BE an IT manager, doesn't mean you can't go apply for the job..all it takes is one guy to say 'OK', and you're in!

the Rooney Rule at least leveled the playing field (somewhat) for black coaches..many of the NFL's owners needed to be made aware of the fact that there are some very good black assistants out there, and its time to start looking at them for HC spots.
Click to expand...
The rule should be an insult to every free person in the world. It says:1. NFL teams are too bigoted and too stupid to find the best coach for their team

2. Black coaches aren't good enough to get a job without help

Of course, getting a job depends to some extent on "who you know", but that is incumbent on the individual to increase their network.. not anyone else.

 
MG345 said:
Alot of people think this is the case for Jim Mora, because he withdrew his name from the Skins job.
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Excellent point.
Raider Nation said:
This means that Seahawks assisant coach Jim Mora, despite being white, can indeed have it written into his contract that he will replace Mike Holmgren next season. I suspect that's exactly what happened, since Mora pulled his name from consideration for the Redskins HC job.
Click to expand...
 
moondog said:
skillz said:
A few people brought this up last week in regards to Garrett's situation in Dallas and whether the team would be violating the Rooney rule if it hired him as Wade's successor. Does it have to be written into the contract, or is just being on the coaching staff enough?Of course, for Caldwell the whole issue is moot anyway since he is black. As I understand the Rooney rule, the Colts would be in compliance by hiring him as the next head coach even without interviewing any white candidates for the job.
Click to expand...
It has to be in his ORIGINAL contract he signed with the team to satisfy this part of the Rooney Rule. It cannot be added to a subsequent contract and comply with the rule.
Click to expand...
That isn't how Clayton explained it, for the record. Not saying you are incorrect or anything.
 
Mark Kamenski said:
Dude, you're SUPPOSED go on interviews that are for jobs that you know you will never get..thats career searching 101, my friend..just because you don't think you can actually BE an IT manager, doesn't mean you can't go apply for the job..all it takes is one guy to say 'OK', and you're in!

the Rooney Rule at least leveled the playing field (somewhat) for black coaches..many of the NFL's owners needed to be made aware of the fact that there are some very good black assistants out there, and its time to start looking at them for HC spots.
Click to expand...
The rule should be an insult to every free person in the world. It says:1. NFL teams are too bigoted and too stupid to find the best coach for their team

2. Black coaches aren't good enough to get a job without help

Of course, getting a job depends to some extent on "who you know", but that is incumbent on the individual to increase their network.. not anyone else.
Click to expand...
I agree that it is sad that we have to make a rule to stop the Good Ol' Boys from categorically excluding black head coaches.The only insult, however, was that it did not happen earlier.

 
Raider Nation said:
trader jake said:
It's about time the Rooney Rule was eliminated from the rulebook anyway. The dog and pony show is lame and if an owner has their guy already, so be it.
Click to expand...
This is where I used to come down, but I now disagree and I'll tell you why.I used to feel it was insulting to the black coaches who would interview for jobs knowing they had no prayer of being hired. But then I heard Mike Tomlin talking about how even though some black coaches go into an interview fully realizing they won't get THAT particular job they're there for, the interview process opened doors for them in the future as far as being recommended to other teams (by the one they just interviewed with), and it helped that they had experience in the interview process itself. Each time, they are more prepared.
Click to expand...
That's not unique to black head coaching candidates though. If the Rooney Rule covered redheads, then you'd hear from more redheaded coaches about how they're getting more experience in interviews and they're getting more opportunities. In other words, of course the black coaches like it - it gives them favorable treatment! I happen to be one who thinks that the Rooney Rule was instituted about 5-10 years after it was necessary in the NFL. The owners who are interested in fielding competitive teams weren't going to restrict their head coaching searches by race, and the ones who historically are more interested in making money than being competitive are using different criteria that has nothing to do with race anyway.

 
I think I read somewhere (no I don't have a link) that the Fritz Pollard alliance is the one claiming that the HC promotion has to be in the original contract but the NFL is claiming it can be added to an extension or revised contract. It appears there is some uncertainty regarding this exception to the basic rule.

If the FPA's interpretation is upheld, it will be interesting to see if Seattle and especially Dallas can even get any minorities to sit for interviews next year since they will clearly be shams. Then again, Parcells had clearly agreed to hire Sparano a while ago, and he still got Leslie Frazier to interview.

 
Who qualifies as a "Rooney rule" candidate?

Would Barack Obama Qualify(Caucasion mom and dad from Kenya)? Would Tiger Woods? Colin Powell(parents emigrated from Jamaica)? Norm Chow?

TIA

 
TinHat said:
Who qualifies as a "Rooney rule" candidate?Would Barack Obama Qualify(Caucasion mom and dad from Kenya)? Would Tiger Woods? Colin Powell(parents emigrated from Jamaica)? Norm Chow?TIA
Click to expand...
Well, it would certainly have to be a racially pure minority. :confused:
 
fatness said:
trader jake said:
Seems to be the recent trend. However, I'm not sure if it really means anything: see Gregg Williams in D.C.
Click to expand...
Contrary to what was reported for a long time, that was never in Gregg Williams's contract.
Click to expand...
He gets 1 Million if he's not the next head coach. So you are correct about the job not being guaranteed.
 
Dodge said:
fatness said:
trader jake said:
Seems to be the recent trend. However, I'm not sure if it really means anything: see Gregg Williams in D.C.
Click to expand...
Contrary to what was reported for a long time, that was never in Gregg Williams's contract.
Click to expand...
He gets 1 Million if he's not the next head coach. So you are correct about the job not being guaranteed.
Click to expand...
That entire clause was fictional, the $1M, the guaranteed head coaching gig, everything.
 
redman said:
Raider Nation said:
trader jake said:
It's about time the Rooney Rule was eliminated from the rulebook anyway. The dog and pony show is lame and if an owner has their guy already, so be it.
Click to expand...
This is where I used to come down, but I now disagree and I'll tell you why.I used to feel it was insulting to the black coaches who would interview for jobs knowing they had no prayer of being hired. But then I heard Mike Tomlin talking about how even though some black coaches go into an interview fully realizing they won't get THAT particular job they're there for, the interview process opened doors for them in the future as far as being recommended to other teams (by the one they just interviewed with), and it helped that they had experience in the interview process itself. Each time, they are more prepared.
Click to expand...
That's not unique to black head coaching candidates though. If the Rooney Rule covered redheads, then you'd hear from more redheaded coaches about how they're getting more experience in interviews and they're getting more opportunities. In other words, of course the black coaches like it - it gives them favorable treatment! I happen to be one who thinks that the Rooney Rule was instituted about 5-10 years after it was necessary in the NFL. The owners who are interested in fielding competitive teams weren't going to restrict their head coaching searches by race, and the ones who historically are more interested in making money than being competitive are using different criteria that has nothing to do with race anyway.
Click to expand...
"Favorable treatment"? I think I'll disagree with that.
 
Mark Kamenski said:
Dude, you're SUPPOSED go on interviews that are for jobs that you know you will never get..thats career searching 101, my friend..just because you don't think you can actually BE an IT manager, doesn't mean you can't go apply for the job..all it takes is one guy to say 'OK', and you're in!

the Rooney Rule at least leveled the playing field (somewhat) for black coaches..many of the NFL's owners needed to be made aware of the fact that there are some very good black assistants out there, and its time to start looking at them for HC spots.
Click to expand...
The rule should be an insult to every free person in the world. It says:1. NFL teams are too bigoted and too stupid to find the best coach for their team

2. Black coaches aren't good enough to get a job without help

Of course, getting a job depends to some extent on "who you know", but that is incumbent on the individual to increase their network.. not anyone else.
Click to expand...
The NFL's hiring history of black coaches is what was the insult to every free person in the world.
 
Spike said:
redman said:
Raider Nation said:
trader jake said:
It's about time the Rooney Rule was eliminated from the rulebook anyway. The dog and pony show is lame and if an owner has their guy already, so be it.
Click to expand...
This is where I used to come down, but I now disagree and I'll tell you why.I used to feel it was insulting to the black coaches who would interview for jobs knowing they had no prayer of being hired. But then I heard Mike Tomlin talking about how even though some black coaches go into an interview fully realizing they won't get THAT particular job they're there for, the interview process opened doors for them in the future as far as being recommended to other teams (by the one they just interviewed with), and it helped that they had experience in the interview process itself. Each time, they are more prepared.
Click to expand...
That's not unique to black head coaching candidates though. If the Rooney Rule covered redheads, then you'd hear from more redheaded coaches about how they're getting more experience in interviews and they're getting more opportunities. In other words, of course the black coaches like it - it gives them favorable treatment! I happen to be one who thinks that the Rooney Rule was instituted about 5-10 years after it was necessary in the NFL. The owners who are interested in fielding competitive teams weren't going to restrict their head coaching searches by race, and the ones who historically are more interested in making money than being competitive are using different criteria that has nothing to do with race anyway.
Click to expand...
"Favorable treatment"? I think I'll disagree with that.
Click to expand...
And I think we'll agree to disagree. BTW, at what point should we do away with the Rooney Rule? :whistle:

 
The NFL's hiring history of black coaches is what was the insult to every free person in the world.
Click to expand...
Yeah. If I don't get hired, it's always someone else's fault.Look, discrimination has always been around. Sometimes it's been due to race, education, wealth, whatever. Discrimination based on race quickly died out as a competitive strategy. To think this rule is needed in the modern era, for wealthy black Americans, is ridiculous.
 
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redman said:
The owners who are interested in fielding competitive teams weren't going to restrict their head coaching searches by race, and the ones who historically are more interested in making money than being competitive are using different criteria that has nothing to do with race anyway.
Click to expand...
Racism (for most people) is a lot more subtle than that. I doubt any of the NFL owners thinks "I'm not going to hire that guy because he's black"--I hope as a society we've at least moved beyond that level of racism. Where racism exists today, it's more subtle; coaches (and players) get perceived differently based on their skin color. There are some interesting studies on this point; black athletes tend to be thought of as more athletic and whites as smarter and more team-oriented, even if their performance is identical. Those perceptions are based on deeply-ingrained cultural beliefs that work far below the level of conscious thought. On the athletic side, it's part of why there were no black QBs for so long, and also part of why athletic whites often wind up at positions other than RB or CB. (There are also more obvious cultural factors involved; for example, athletic whites are less likely to play football than athletic blacks).So, what happens with a coaching vacancy is that, all else being equal, a black candidate will tend to be viewed as maybe better with athletes, but lacking leadership qualities compared to an identical white candidate. When an owner with a coaching vacancy runs through his mental list of "guys I know who could lead us to the Super Bowl," that mental list will tend to have a disproportionate number of white guys on it. It's a real phenomenon and a real barrier that the Rooney Rule attempts to alleviate.I personally think the Rooney Rule is a little ham-handed, but it's hard to argue with the results. Just look at head coaching positions in the NFL (which has the Rooney Rule) vs. the NCAA (which doesn't). In the NCAA, less than 3% of the head coaches are black (Division I-III), and less than 5% of the Division I coaches. I don't think we need to target a specific percentage of head coaching positions, but when something like 50% of the athletes are black and only 5% of the coaches, and virtually all of the coaches are former athletes, it's obvious that there's a systemic bias.
 
CalBear said:
redman said:
The owners who are interested in fielding competitive teams weren't going to restrict their head coaching searches by race, and the ones who historically are more interested in making money than being competitive are using different criteria that has nothing to do with race anyway.
Click to expand...
Racism (for most people) is a lot more subtle than that. I doubt any of the NFL owners thinks "I'm not going to hire that guy because he's black"--I hope as a society we've at least moved beyond that level of racism. Where racism exists today, it's more subtle; coaches (and players) get perceived differently based on their skin color. There are some interesting studies on this point; black athletes tend to be thought of as more athletic and whites as smarter and more team-oriented, even if their performance is identical. Those perceptions are based on deeply-ingrained cultural beliefs that work far below the level of conscious thought. On the athletic side, it's part of why there were no black QBs for so long, and also part of why athletic whites often wind up at positions other than RB or CB. (There are also more obvious cultural factors involved; for example, athletic whites are less likely to play football than athletic blacks).

So, what happens with a coaching vacancy is that, all else being equal, a black candidate will tend to be viewed as maybe better with athletes, but lacking leadership qualities compared to an identical white candidate. When an owner with a coaching vacancy runs through his mental list of "guys I know who could lead us to the Super Bowl," that mental list will tend to have a disproportionate number of white guys on it. It's a real phenomenon and a real barrier that the Rooney Rule attempts to alleviate.



I personally think the Rooney Rule is a little ham-handed, but it's hard to argue with the results. Just look at head coaching positions in the NFL (which has the Rooney Rule) vs. the NCAA (which doesn't). In the NCAA, less than 3% of the head coaches are black (Division I-III), and less than 5% of the Division I coaches. I don't think we need to target a specific percentage of head coaching positions, but when something like 50% of the athletes are black and only 5% of the coaches, and virtually all of the coaches are former athletes, it's obvious that there's a systemic bias.
Click to expand...
Oh good, so we are using quotas. I think turning black men into numbers that make us feel good is an excellent way of fighting racism!
 
redman said:
Oh good, so we are using quotas. I think turning black men into numbers that make us feel good is an excellent way of fighting racism!
Click to expand...
Did you bother to read my post? Specifically the part where I said "I don't think we need to target a specific percentage"?
 
If people want to make a strong argument against the Rooney Rule, you'd think they'd show some numbers to support their case that it's discriminating against white candidates for head coaching jobs.

 
redman said:
Spike said:
redman said:
Raider Nation said:
trader jake said:
It's about time the Rooney Rule was eliminated from the rulebook anyway. The dog and pony show is lame and if an owner has their guy already, so be it.
Click to expand...
This is where I used to come down, but I now disagree and I'll tell you why.I used to feel it was insulting to the black coaches who would interview for jobs knowing they had no prayer of being hired. But then I heard Mike Tomlin talking about how even though some black coaches go into an interview fully realizing they won't get THAT particular job they're there for, the interview process opened doors for them in the future as far as being recommended to other teams (by the one they just interviewed with), and it helped that they had experience in the interview process itself. Each time, they are more prepared.
Click to expand...
That's not unique to black head coaching candidates though. If the Rooney Rule covered redheads, then you'd hear from more redheaded coaches about how they're getting more experience in interviews and they're getting more opportunities. In other words, of course the black coaches like it - it gives them favorable treatment! I happen to be one who thinks that the Rooney Rule was instituted about 5-10 years after it was necessary in the NFL. The owners who are interested in fielding competitive teams weren't going to restrict their head coaching searches by race, and the ones who historically are more interested in making money than being competitive are using different criteria that has nothing to do with race anyway.
Click to expand...
"Favorable treatment"? I think I'll disagree with that.
Click to expand...
And I think we'll agree to disagree. BTW, at what point should we do away with the Rooney Rule? :pickle:
Click to expand...
Same time we should narrow the scope of the Voting Rights Act.
 
CalBear said:
redman said:
Oh good, so we are using quotas. I think turning black men into numbers that make us feel good is an excellent way of fighting racism!
Click to expand...
Did you bother to read my post? Specifically the part where I said "I don't think we need to target a specific percentage"?
Click to expand...
Why mention percentages at all then? Also, why is it more acceptable to be less specific about what the actual goal is? I fail to see how that's a virtue.

 
fatness said:
If people want to make a strong argument against the Rooney Rule, you'd think they'd show some numbers to support their case that it's discriminating against white candidates for head coaching jobs.
Click to expand...
Please explain how you can show preference to one group without negatively affecting other groups.
 
The Steelers were fortunate to hire Tomlin and the rule itself is well-intentioned. But it is not perfect and some scenarios have identified flaws or unusual circumstances. Here is one I see:

What if a team invites a series of minority candidates to interview for the position of head coaches but ALL decline to show up because of their strong belief that the team in question already has a person designated for hire, and that the notion of "gaining experience" from a courtesy interview isn't worth it? Does a team then, in order to comply with the rule, invite a minority candidate that may not be especially qualified simply to adhere to the rule? And how long can/should a team wait for the invited applicant(s)' response in whether they intend to follow through and be interviewed? In other words, is there a provision about a time limit within the rule before a team can determine that no minority applicants will accept the invitation for an interview?

If anyone can answer questions about the duration of the process, please help clarify. Thanks!

 
TinHat said:
Who qualifies as a "Rooney rule" candidate?Would Barack Obama Qualify(Caucasion mom and dad from Kenya)? Would Tiger Woods? Colin Powell(parents emigrated from Jamaica)? Norm Chow?TIA
Click to expand...
The Rooney Rule is for all minority candidates not just black candidates. Black coaches make up the majority of that minority which may make it seem like the Rooney Rule is for black coaches only but that isn’t the case.So interviewing Norm Chow would satisfy the Rooney Rule
 
monessen said:
The Steelers were fortunate to hire Tomlin and the rule itself is well-intentioned. But it is not perfect and some scenarios have identified flaws or unusual circumstances. Here is one I see:What if a team invites a series of minority candidates to interview for the position of head coaches but ALL decline to show up because of their strong belief that the team in question already has a person designated for hire, and that the notion of "gaining experience" from a courtesy interview isn't worth it? Does a team then, in order to comply with the rule, invite a minority candidate that may not be especially qualified simply to adhere to the rule? And how long can/should a team wait for the invited applicant(s)' response in whether they intend to follow through and be interviewed? In other words, is there a provision about a time limit within the rule before a team can determine that no minority applicants will accept the invitation for an interview?If anyone can answer questions about the duration of the process, please help clarify. Thanks!
Click to expand...
I think the team gets “credit” for the invite if they are turned down but I am not sure.
 
Yenrub said:
TinHat said:
Who qualifies as a "Rooney rule" candidate?Would Barack Obama Qualify(Caucasion mom and dad from Kenya)? Would Tiger Woods? Colin Powell(parents emigrated from Jamaica)? Norm Chow?TIA
Click to expand...
The Rooney Rule is for all minority candidates not just black candidates. Black coaches make up the majority of that minority which may make it seem like the Rooney Rule is for black coaches only but that isn’t the case.So interviewing Norm Chow would satisfy the Rooney Rule
Click to expand...
Again, how much racial purity must be there to qualify? What if the dude's grandma is Cherokee?
 
redman said:
Yenrub said:
TinHat said:
Who qualifies as a "Rooney rule" candidate?Would Barack Obama Qualify(Caucasion mom and dad from Kenya)? Would Tiger Woods? Colin Powell(parents emigrated from Jamaica)? Norm Chow?TIA
Click to expand...
The Rooney Rule is for all minority candidates not just black candidates. Black coaches make up the majority of that minority which may make it seem like the Rooney Rule is for black coaches only but that isn’t the case.So interviewing Norm Chow would satisfy the Rooney Rule
Click to expand...
Again, how much racial purity must be there to qualify? What if the dude's grandma is Cherokee?
Click to expand...
I am not sure what you are looking for here but I doubt that the NFL tried to reinvent the wheel when it came to who is a ‘minority’. My guess is that if the government labels someone as a ‘minority’, then interviewing that person satisfy’s the Rooney rule.
 
Yenrub said:
redman said:
Yenrub said:
TinHat said:
Who qualifies as a "Rooney rule" candidate?Would Barack Obama Qualify(Caucasion mom and dad from Kenya)? Would Tiger Woods? Colin Powell(parents emigrated from Jamaica)? Norm Chow?TIA
Click to expand...
The Rooney Rule is for all minority candidates not just black candidates. Black coaches make up the majority of that minority which may make it seem like the Rooney Rule is for black coaches only but that isn’t the case.So interviewing Norm Chow would satisfy the Rooney Rule
Click to expand...
Again, how much racial purity must be there to qualify? What if the dude's grandma is Cherokee?
Click to expand...
I am not sure what you are looking for here but I doubt that the NFL tried to reinvent the wheel when it came to who is a ‘minority’. My guess is that if the government labels someone as a ‘minority’, then interviewing that person satisfy’s the Rooney rule.
Click to expand...
I'd like to know the criteria that's being used, and I've never heard the NFL say what that criteria is, have you?
 
Yenrub said:
monessen said:
The Steelers were fortunate to hire Tomlin and the rule itself is well-intentioned. But it is not perfect and some scenarios have identified flaws or unusual circumstances. Here is one I see:What if a team invites a series of minority candidates to interview for the position of head coaches but ALL decline to show up because of their strong belief that the team in question already has a person designated for hire, and that the notion of "gaining experience" from a courtesy interview isn't worth it? Does a team then, in order to comply with the rule, invite a minority candidate that may not be especially qualified simply to adhere to the rule? And how long can/should a team wait for the invited applicant(s)' response in whether they intend to follow through and be interviewed? In other words, is there a provision about a time limit within the rule before a team can determine that no minority applicants will accept the invitation for an interview?If anyone can answer questions about the duration of the process, please help clarify. Thanks!
Click to expand...
I think the team gets “credit” for the invite if they are turned down but I am not sure.
Click to expand...
No, they have to have an in-person interview. I think it may need to involve the owner of the team in the interview as well. The lions and millen got punished a few years ago because word had gotten out they were hiring mariucci and none of the minority candidates they invited were willing to sit for a sham interview. Language requiring a face to face interview was added after Jerry Jones satisfied the rule by "interviewing" Dennis Green over the phone before formalizing the hire of Bill Parcells.
 
redman said:
CalBear said:
redman said:
Oh good, so we are using quotas. I think turning black men into numbers that make us feel good is an excellent way of fighting racism!
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Did you bother to read my post? Specifically the part where I said "I don't think we need to target a specific percentage"?
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Why mention percentages at all then? Also, why is it more acceptable to be less specific about what the actual goal is? I fail to see how that's a virtue.
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Percentages are just measures of what the current situation is. If I flip a coin 10,000 times and it comes up heads 70% of the time, it's obvious the coin is biased; the question is, is there a systematic bias in the hiring of black head coaches?Let's start with three basic assumptions:

1) Black and white athletes have equivalent coaching aptitude.

2) Black and white former athletes are equally interested in coaching.

3) There is no systematic bias against blacks.

If all three of these assumptions were true, in a sport where the athletes are 50% black, you would expect the coaching ranks to be 50% black (give or take the margin of error). When you look at the actual situation and see that 5% of the coaches are black, you have to assume that one or more of the assumptions is significantly off; the actual results we are seeing are an order of magnitude off of the expected results.

There's no evidence that assumption 1 is incorrect, and plenty of scientific and sociological evidence that there is not an aptitude gap between blacks and whites. Black coaches have also been successful in the NFL.

There's also no evidence that assumption 2 is incorrect, and it seems incredulous to me to suggest that black former football players would rather open up used car dealerships than coach football. Certainly if there is an effect here, it's not an order-of-magnitude effect.

That leaves assumption 3. There is plenty of evidence that there is systematic bias against blacks in the U.S., and there has been for generations. It seems most reasonable to conclude that the number of black coaches in college is far below the expected value (given our assumptions) because of this well-known and well-understood phenomena. Occam's Razor--the simplest explanation is most likely to be correct.

Now, what we do with this information is another thing. The NFL decided to implement the Rooney Rule. The percentage of black head coaches in the NFL, which was similar to what it was in the NCAA prior to the adoption of the Rooney Rule, is now four times what it is in the NCAA. It seems reasonable to conclude that the Rooney Rule had a significant effect on the hiring of black coaches, though the number of black coaches is still below what we would expect given our above three assumptions.

I think most would agree that giving opportunities to guys like Mike Tomlin is a good thing, and the Rule doesn't take opportunities away from anyone.

The true test of equality, though, is not whether a great black man advances as fast as a great white man; it's whether a black loser hangs around as long as a white loser.

 
CalBear said:
redman said:
CalBear said:
redman said:
Oh good, so we are using quotas. I think turning black men into numbers that make us feel good is an excellent way of fighting racism!
Click to expand...
Did you bother to read my post? Specifically the part where I said "I don't think we need to target a specific percentage"?
Click to expand...
Why mention percentages at all then? Also, why is it more acceptable to be less specific about what the actual goal is? I fail to see how that's a virtue.
Click to expand...
1) Black and white athletes have equivalent coaching aptitude.2) Black and white former athletes are equally interested in coaching.
Click to expand...
Why are these good assumptions? The reason I ask is because we hear constantly how poor the schools are in predominantly black neighborhoods, and how relatively few black high school students go on to become graduating college students. This is a cultural problem, not a football problem. While football coaching aptitude certainly can (but not necessarily) have something to do with one's playing experience, when you're talking about NFL level football coaching aptitude I think you're at a level where other more academic skills - administrative skills, organizational skills, communications skills, just for starters - are far more emphasized than one's athleticism or even football playing experience. These tend to be things that are gotten or certainly at least assisted by higher education . . . precisely the area where black youngsters are failing to keep up with white youngsters.

You're quoting the number of blacks who play NFL football versus the number of whites, and then comparing those numbers to the NFL coaching ranks. How many NFL head coaches are former NFL players? By my count, there are five (four of whom, interestingly enough, are in the AFC South, plus Edwards). When the NFL playing ranks are not the source of your coaches, why would you use the racial makeup of those ranks to determine what the racial makeup of your coaches should be?

You don't solve an American socio-economic problem by creating an NFL rule that attempts to force or at least achieve a certain (arbitrary) racial makeup on the coaching ranks. That's an asinine concept.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
redman said:
You don't solve an American socio-economic problem by creating an NFL rule that attempts to force or at least achieve a certain (arbitrary) racial makeup on the coaching ranks. That's an asinine concept.
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I understand that you think so. I'm done.
 
CalBear said:
redman said:
You don't solve an American socio-economic problem by creating an NFL rule that attempts to force or at least achieve a certain (arbitrary) racial makeup on the coaching ranks. That's an asinine concept.
Click to expand...
I understand that you think so. I'm done.
Click to expand...
That's a cop out. If you can't defend your position in an intelligent discussion, don't feign frustration with me. I'm not the problem.
 
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