mbuehner said:
Not sure how that addresses my point at all. Would Brady have been a bad QB if Vinitari misses that kick and the Rams win? You cant judge a QB soley on wins and losses. Sure its part of the equation (as I said, this loss was a serious blow to Brady's resume) but to argue that this reveals him as an average (or worse) QB is absurd, because even great QBs can have mediocre or even bad days.
Careful here. There are many in the harem of Brady love that would disagree with that - for many that is THE basis for the affirmative answer to the original post's question. Admitting that you don't go by wins and losses (or at least have them be the major factor), basically removes Brady from the GOAT discussion by default. Mainly because if you look at stats (especially career ones) Brady doesn't come near Favre, Manning, Montana or Marino in virtually any statistical category.
Montana's career stats don't really hold up that well, either. He's already behind Manning in yardage and TD's even with 5 more years on his resume. There's a balance between winning, especially Super Bowls, stats, and the ever popular eyeball test. Montana is widely regarded the best of all time mostly because of the Super Bowl victories and for a large % here, because we saw him play. Brady's career has some run left to it. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. If he stays healthy, and continues to approach 4000 yards and 30 scores regularly, his career stats will be right up there at the end. If he can pull another championship ring along the way, when its all said and done, he will probably enter the conversation.
Montana put up great numbers. When he retired I believe he was 4th all-time in yards and TD's, 3rd in completions, and first in passer rating. He's still Top 10 in most categories.
He's 10 in yards, 9 in TDs, 6 in rating. Good, but not what gets him mentioned as the best QB of alltime. This was not meant to diss Montana. The guys at the top of the list in stats ( Marino, Favre, Elway, Manning - on pace ) are 50% ahead of what Montana's career numbers are. To paint this picture, the gap between Montana's career passing yards (10th) and Favre (1st) is the same gap as between Trent Dilfer ( 84th ) and Montana.
Montana's greatness was evident in the way he played, in the games he won with clutch play, and the Super Bowls he won. If you were to evaluate his stats alone as the measure, I doubt you'd find many that would decree Montana as the best ever.
Some of those overall statistics have to do with number of games played too though.. Montana missed a good portion of a couple of seasons including one whole season in his carreer compared to number of games played by Favre, Elway, etc. I have no idea what they are, but I'm going to guess on a per game basis, Montana ranks quite nicely. I know, as several have posted, that on a post season per game basis, Montana has far better numbers than any of the greats you mentioned. If anything, the only flaw to Montana was his body was built so that he was more easily injured than the other greats, though some of his injuries were flukish or would have happened to anyone....
It doesn't matter one bit if Favre or Manning have better overall statistics than Joe Montana. If you watched him play, you know that he defined greatness in a QB, and was the best. I've watched all those guys play just as much as Montana and am fans of all of them- except maybe Marino- but Montana was simply better... Madden has said Montana was the most unstoppable offensive player he ever saw and said this year, that Brady's run (this year only) was the only time he thought someone could challenge Montana. Brady fell short.. He's still a great QB though.
Who knows what separates the "greatest" athletes from the "great" athletes, but Montana won championships in high school, college, and the NFL. He led his teams to legendary wins documented starting in college. The guy had something special....
If I need a Qb to win the biggest game ever with a few minutes left and down a td, Montana is suiting up for me over any of the other guys.....
and he was damn great the rest of the time too
Brady's MO has always been rely on defense and special teams to bail him out. This is nothing new. Yesterday when defense and ST didn't bail him out, we saw the real Tom Brady.
The measure of greatness is not just stats ( as some will claim ) or wins/titles ( as others will claim ). Its a mix of the two, IMO. I think the numbers behind the arguments are really just there to support an opinion.
Sure you would. Lets see your fantasy cheat sheets next year. Then i'll believe it.
Perspective? Uncommon for this thread ( on both sides of the argument )I may not agree that all the names you listed would have had the same stats this year, but the point is solid. The 2007 Patriot offense was great for a number of reasons, and the time Brady had most weeks was a huge part of it. Many QBs would have had career years with this unit.
Neither position is right. Hell, in the final 2 minutes of the game, Brady could have made a throw or 2. Mankins ( or was it Koppen ) could have tried to slow Alford down on the 2nd down play. Moss could have jumped up for the ball on his hands on 3rd down. Samuel could have held the pick. Seymour, Thomas, or Green could have pulled Eli down. Harrison could have knocked the ball out of Tyree's hands.It was a team loss, where any number of individual plays could have changed the outcome, but it didn't happen. Saying this loss is all on Brady is an extreme position generally taken by a biased viewpoint.
My logic is flawed? How do you know that Brady couldn't have thrown 60 TD passes in 1984 for the Dolphins against a USFL drained league? You don't, but what we do know is that Marino never passed for 50 TD's in a season.
