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McFadden Short shuttle (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Maroney=Speed
- Start date
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BuckeyeArt
Footballguy
This is incredibly accurate. Anyone who doesn't agree needs to do the simple correlations. I'll add a little to this. If you start with the average NFL body, remove the slow 40 times, and look at the good verticals, you'll find the successful NFL players. There are obviously exceptions but the shuttle time doesn't correlate with success at all. I don't think the broad jump is as valuable (but the good verticals usually produce good broad jumps).Once difference this year is that the verticals (combine) don't seem to be equivalent to those in the past. So you have to look at the relative verticals between the players and maybe even factor in the pro day numbers.
cstu
Footballguy
You might as well quit going on about him - either people believe McFadden is the goods by now or they don't. While he could absolutely be a bust in the NFL like any RB I don't buy the arguments against him (not breaking tackles, skinny legs). I like Mendenhall, who looks like a good all-around back, and Stewart, a beast if he gets healthy, but McFadden just has the 'it' factor than they don't have IMO. I blame AP for setting the bar so freaking high that every RB looks like a chump next to him.
encaitar
Footballguy
Well, that's the problem that a lot of posters here have with guys like Marony=Speed and others. They are claiming that DMac is as good, if not better than AP and it just isn't true. AP is unlike anyone to come out of college since maybe Eric Dickerson or Bo Jackson. If he stays healthy, he's bound for greatness.I don't get that feeling with DMac. I think he'll be a very good RB with the ever present possibility of going the distance, but I don't feel that the only thing he needs to do to be a GREAT running back in the NFL is stay healthy. He can't break tackles like ADP can. Anyone claiming otherwise just isn't watching the same football games I am apparently. What makes ADP so dangerous is that once he gets past the LBs, he's gone. There isn't a DB who can tackle him and LBs and DLinemen can't catch him. I think DBs will be able to tackle DMac and I don't know if he'll have the power to break through the middle of the line.I am excited for DMac and would take him if I had the number 1, but I think he reminds me more of a Reggie Bush(all speed and jukes) than an ADP(speed, moves, and power).
obxlegends
Footballguy
Arm Chair Express
Footballguy
I don't see your stat data to support EBF, I guess the cherry don't fall far from the tree.
twitch
Footballguy
McFadden, as a football player, just looks like a guy who's spent his last 2 months with both legs in a cast. But he can flat out run like the wind. That extra weight that his legs could actually stand to gain makes his ceiling higher in some ways. But you know, its not easy to make calves get bigger when you get into your 20s. You dont all of a sudden start changing your genetic makeup in the weight room. It doesnt really work that way. So, I dont know that his legs are really ever going to LOOK much different, but Im sure he can get a lot stronger. If we're talking real football, and my team New England is sitting there at 7 and he's still on the board, Im looking for them to take a pass. He doesnt fit their needs first and foremost. Though its tough to make a case that ANY team doesnt need an extra dynamic player.
But if we're talking FANTASY football here, Im reaching for McFadden all day. He's a home run hitter. Pure speed. A pure runner. He's got potential to be a #s machine. And fantasy is ultimately all about fun. To most anyway. So why not make the play for the clear cut 'elite' talent in this draft. Maybe he's Reggie Bush. Maybe he's Marcus Allen. Roll the dice and find out.
I dont sweat much the talk about him not having power, and going down easy on contact. The SEC's not exactly the Mountain West or Conference USA. Fellas in that league are going pretty early in drafts. And DM has shown some durability. I see McFadden being a smart football player, understanding he didnt want to blow his ride in college struggling for a couple of extra yards here and there. We can respect the Cadillac Williams type overachievement, laying it all out on every single play. We can also respect a back who understands not every single run is the last run of his life. Just gotta understand what type of back youre getting with him. Not a Jerome Bettis or Marion Barber type grinder or anything close to that. He's more like someone with Barry Sanders type homerun potential who's gonna take some losses and take some big pops once in a while. Probably not the best goal line runner we'll ever see. But maybe the best big play RB the game has seen in years.
But if we're talking FANTASY football here, Im reaching for McFadden all day. He's a home run hitter. Pure speed. A pure runner. He's got potential to be a #s machine. And fantasy is ultimately all about fun. To most anyway. So why not make the play for the clear cut 'elite' talent in this draft. Maybe he's Reggie Bush. Maybe he's Marcus Allen. Roll the dice and find out.
I dont sweat much the talk about him not having power, and going down easy on contact. The SEC's not exactly the Mountain West or Conference USA. Fellas in that league are going pretty early in drafts. And DM has shown some durability. I see McFadden being a smart football player, understanding he didnt want to blow his ride in college struggling for a couple of extra yards here and there. We can respect the Cadillac Williams type overachievement, laying it all out on every single play. We can also respect a back who understands not every single run is the last run of his life. Just gotta understand what type of back youre getting with him. Not a Jerome Bettis or Marion Barber type grinder or anything close to that. He's more like someone with Barry Sanders type homerun potential who's gonna take some losses and take some big pops once in a while. Probably not the best goal line runner we'll ever see. But maybe the best big play RB the game has seen in years.
Maroney=Speed
Footballguy
Do you really think Hodge remebers that?Merrill Hodge said on NFL Live he did a 3.99 shuttle at his work outs
I remember Merrill as having the same problem as McFadden did in being too skinny.Size in the Pro's.Position: FB/RBHeight: 6' 2'' Weight: 212.Interesting.
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EBF
Footballguy
Here are some combine numbers for the current top 20 RBs on the FBG dynasty list. I obtained most of these numbers from nfldraftscout.com.
Prospect Name - 40 time - broad jump - vertical leap - shuttle time
Edgerrin James - 4.38, N/A, N/A, 3.88
LaDainian Tomlinson - 4.46, 10'4", 40.5", 4.21
Brian Westbrook - 4.57, 9'10", 37", N/A
Larry Johnson - 4.45, 10'4", 41", 4.28
Steven Jackson - 4.55, 9'10", 37.5", 4.09
Frank Gore - 4.58, 9'1", 34", 4.11
Marion Barber - 4.49, 10'7", 40", 4.17
Ronnie Brown - 4.43, 9'9", 34", 4.14
Ryan Grant - 4.43, 9'7", 33.5", 4.14
Brandon Jacobs - 4.56, 9'10", 37", 4.49
Joseph Addai - 4.40, 10'5", 38.5", 4.48
Maurice Drew - 4.39, 9'8", 36", 4.41
Laurence Maroney - 4.48, 10'3", 36", N/A
Reggie Bush - 4.37, 10'8", 40.5", N/A
Adrian Peterson - 4.40, 10'7", 38.5", 4.40
Marshawn Lynch - 4.46, 10'5", 35.5", 4.58
Jamal Lewis - N/A
Clinton Portis - N/A
Willis McGahee - N/A
Willie Parker - N/A
Range of 40 times: 4.37-4.58
Average 40 time: 4.46
Average for the top 5 (Peterson, Tomlinson, Westbrook, Addai, Jackson): 4.47
Range of broad jumps: 9'1"-10'8"
Average broad jump: 10'1"
Average for the top 5: 10'2"
Range of vertical leaps: 33.5"-40.5"
Average vertical leap: 37"
Average for the top 5: 38.4"
Range of shuttle times: 3.88-4.58
Average shuttle time: 4.26
Average for the top 5: 4.26
(NOTE: I used Gore's time for the top 5 since I couldn't find a time for Westbrook or Parker and Gore was next on the list)
Some interesting notes:
- Only one of 15 backs had a vertical leap under 34". 12 out of 15 had a vertical leap greater than 35". That's 80%.
- Only one of 15 backs had a broad jump under 9'7". 11 out of 15 had broad jump of 9'10" or more. That's 73%.
- Only four of 16 backs had a 40 time of 4.50 or higher. 12 out of 16 had a 40 time of 4.49 or better. That's 75%.
- Only five of 13 backs had a shuttle time higher than 4.28. That's 38%.
- The top 5 runners had a slightly better vertical leap and broad jump than the the top 20 as a whole, but they showed no difference in the 40 time or shuttle (they were actually slightly slower in the 40).
This isn't a perfect study for a number of reasons, but I do think it supports what I've been saying. A strong majority of the top NFL runners have a 40 time under 4.50, a broad jump of 9'10" or better, a vertical leap of 35" or better, and a shuttle time of 4.28 or faster. Yet there appears to be a little more wiggle room in the shuttle, with over a third of the elite runners having times of 4.40 or higher.
I think you can draw the following conclusions: When you're looking at RB prospects, you should look for players who run under 4.50 in the 40, jump over 35" in the vertical leap, jump at least 9'10" in the broad jump, and have a shuttle time of 4.28 or better. There's some margin for error, but most of the elite pro running backs exceeded these minimums.
For comparison, here are the combine numbers for this year's top backs:
Darren McFadden - 4.33, 10'8", 33", N/A
Rashard Mendenhall - 4.41, 9'9", 33.5", 4.18
Jonathan Stewart - 4.46, 10'8", 36.5", N/A
Jamaal Charles - 4.38, 10'2", 30.5", 4.22
Felix Jones - 4.44, 10'4", 33.5", 4.19
Chris Johnson - 4.24, 10'10", 35", N/A
Ray Rice - 4.42, 9'11", 31.5", 4.20
Matt Forte - 4.44, 9'10", 33", 4.23
Tashard Choice - 4.48, 9'11", 34", N/A
Kevin Smith - 4.53, 10', 32", 4.49
Steve Slaton - 4.45, 9'10", 33.5", 4.27
What immediately stands out are the low vertical jumps. The marks are so low across the board that there was almost certainly something wrong with the initial measurement process. I think they were off by about 1 to 3 inches based on the improvements Slaton, McFadden, Jones, and Smith made at their pro days (all of them doing at least 1" better).
If you add 1.5" to the verticals, you'll see that most of this year's top RB prospects meet the minimums. I don't think we can really eliminate any of these guys solely based on the numbers, but the numbers suggest that we might need to be wary of Jamaal Charles, Ray Rice, and Kevin Smith. Smith in particular stands out since his 40 time, vertical, and shuttle are all sub par. The numbers say avoid him.
Jonathan Stewart and Chris Johnson probably have the best overall marks. They're the only two guys who come close to meeting the top 20 averages in every drill. McFadden also has good numbers given his low 40 time, his monster broad jump, and the respectable 35.5" vert he did at his pro day. The rest of the guys have solid, but unspectacular numbers.
Prospect Name - 40 time - broad jump - vertical leap - shuttle time
Edgerrin James - 4.38, N/A, N/A, 3.88
LaDainian Tomlinson - 4.46, 10'4", 40.5", 4.21
Brian Westbrook - 4.57, 9'10", 37", N/A
Larry Johnson - 4.45, 10'4", 41", 4.28
Steven Jackson - 4.55, 9'10", 37.5", 4.09
Frank Gore - 4.58, 9'1", 34", 4.11
Marion Barber - 4.49, 10'7", 40", 4.17
Ronnie Brown - 4.43, 9'9", 34", 4.14
Ryan Grant - 4.43, 9'7", 33.5", 4.14
Brandon Jacobs - 4.56, 9'10", 37", 4.49
Joseph Addai - 4.40, 10'5", 38.5", 4.48
Maurice Drew - 4.39, 9'8", 36", 4.41
Laurence Maroney - 4.48, 10'3", 36", N/A
Reggie Bush - 4.37, 10'8", 40.5", N/A
Adrian Peterson - 4.40, 10'7", 38.5", 4.40
Marshawn Lynch - 4.46, 10'5", 35.5", 4.58
Jamal Lewis - N/A
Clinton Portis - N/A
Willis McGahee - N/A
Willie Parker - N/A
Range of 40 times: 4.37-4.58
Average 40 time: 4.46
Average for the top 5 (Peterson, Tomlinson, Westbrook, Addai, Jackson): 4.47
Range of broad jumps: 9'1"-10'8"
Average broad jump: 10'1"
Average for the top 5: 10'2"
Range of vertical leaps: 33.5"-40.5"
Average vertical leap: 37"
Average for the top 5: 38.4"
Range of shuttle times: 3.88-4.58
Average shuttle time: 4.26
Average for the top 5: 4.26
(NOTE: I used Gore's time for the top 5 since I couldn't find a time for Westbrook or Parker and Gore was next on the list)
Some interesting notes:
- Only one of 15 backs had a vertical leap under 34". 12 out of 15 had a vertical leap greater than 35". That's 80%.
- Only one of 15 backs had a broad jump under 9'7". 11 out of 15 had broad jump of 9'10" or more. That's 73%.
- Only four of 16 backs had a 40 time of 4.50 or higher. 12 out of 16 had a 40 time of 4.49 or better. That's 75%.
- Only five of 13 backs had a shuttle time higher than 4.28. That's 38%.
- The top 5 runners had a slightly better vertical leap and broad jump than the the top 20 as a whole, but they showed no difference in the 40 time or shuttle (they were actually slightly slower in the 40).
This isn't a perfect study for a number of reasons, but I do think it supports what I've been saying. A strong majority of the top NFL runners have a 40 time under 4.50, a broad jump of 9'10" or better, a vertical leap of 35" or better, and a shuttle time of 4.28 or faster. Yet there appears to be a little more wiggle room in the shuttle, with over a third of the elite runners having times of 4.40 or higher.
I think you can draw the following conclusions: When you're looking at RB prospects, you should look for players who run under 4.50 in the 40, jump over 35" in the vertical leap, jump at least 9'10" in the broad jump, and have a shuttle time of 4.28 or better. There's some margin for error, but most of the elite pro running backs exceeded these minimums.
For comparison, here are the combine numbers for this year's top backs:
Darren McFadden - 4.33, 10'8", 33", N/A
Rashard Mendenhall - 4.41, 9'9", 33.5", 4.18
Jonathan Stewart - 4.46, 10'8", 36.5", N/A
Jamaal Charles - 4.38, 10'2", 30.5", 4.22
Felix Jones - 4.44, 10'4", 33.5", 4.19
Chris Johnson - 4.24, 10'10", 35", N/A
Ray Rice - 4.42, 9'11", 31.5", 4.20
Matt Forte - 4.44, 9'10", 33", 4.23
Tashard Choice - 4.48, 9'11", 34", N/A
Kevin Smith - 4.53, 10', 32", 4.49
Steve Slaton - 4.45, 9'10", 33.5", 4.27
What immediately stands out are the low vertical jumps. The marks are so low across the board that there was almost certainly something wrong with the initial measurement process. I think they were off by about 1 to 3 inches based on the improvements Slaton, McFadden, Jones, and Smith made at their pro days (all of them doing at least 1" better).
If you add 1.5" to the verticals, you'll see that most of this year's top RB prospects meet the minimums. I don't think we can really eliminate any of these guys solely based on the numbers, but the numbers suggest that we might need to be wary of Jamaal Charles, Ray Rice, and Kevin Smith. Smith in particular stands out since his 40 time, vertical, and shuttle are all sub par. The numbers say avoid him.
Jonathan Stewart and Chris Johnson probably have the best overall marks. They're the only two guys who come close to meeting the top 20 averages in every drill. McFadden also has good numbers given his low 40 time, his monster broad jump, and the respectable 35.5" vert he did at his pro day. The rest of the guys have solid, but unspectacular numbers.
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Good post. Count me as one that doesn't understand how this is a difficult concept to understand. Was going to post something similar (basically a "Analyzing EBF's Post" for Dummy's) before EBF did it himself. Come on guys...reading comprehension down?
Michael Fox Fan
Footballguy
EBF = money
Liquid Tension
Footballguy
How is it possible that AD's was written as much faster previously (4.08)? This is why the Numbers care me as it seems like there are 10 different numbers that are listed? How do we know what is right.My take is that it is a piece of the puzzle. Not guaranteed in any way, but it can confirm some things or dispel them
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Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Have to say I was a bit suprised to see Jerome Harrison's name mixed in with McFadden. He is quick but is small and not fast.http://www.browns247.com/content/view/351/2/
I would add he's not much of a blocker so he has difficultly even making it on the field for third downs which decreases his value even more. Per McFadden, He lacks low body definition, I mean someone put an APB out on his calves since they seem to be missing. I don't like how he goes down on so easily for a man of his size which leads to the lower body that is thin and appears to lack strength. Love the straight line speed and short explosion, should be a big play weapon in space especially in the passing game. I heard a Macus Allen comparision that seems to fit as Marcus looked thin in his lower body but proved his toughness between the tackles. Allen lacked the elite speed of McFadden but any comparision with 'The Ghost' isn't applicable for a number of reasons.
EBF
Footballguy
My take on McFadden is that he will be a good player, but probably not a true stud FF back. He's a good player and a good athlete. I doubt he'll be a complete bust. But there are probably enough holes in his game to keep him out of the stud range. Robert Smith might be the best comparison when all is said and done.
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Burning Sensation
Footballguy
EBF
Footballguy
Except Smith's big weakness is the vertical, which might be the most important of all the RB drills. There is not a top 20 RB in the league with a vertical as low as Smith's (which worries me as a Ray Rice supporter). Lynch was weakest in the 40 and the shuttle, which are probably the least important of the four drills I talked about. And Lynch isn't exactly a great example of a workout warrior. Stack Smith up against LJ, Bush, LT, Peterson, or Addai and he gets smoked big time.
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Burning Sensation
Footballguy
EBF
Footballguy
So what's your point? Smith is a notch below a player who's a notch below the elite?
Burning Sensation
Footballguy
Kevin Smith numbers where on par with Lynch, assuming you use Kevin Smiths real 40 time of 4.43.Point being i wouldnt avoid Smith because of his combine numbers. Where Smith goes in the draft is going to dictate where he gets taken in rookie drafts. If he goes to the Broncos in the 2nd round, he is a top 4 rookie pick. If he goes to the Vikings in the 5th, he doesnt go in the first two rounds.
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EBF
Footballguy
Smith's workout numbers paint a pretty grim picture. There is no RB in the top 20 with such a low vertical. His 40, broad jump, and shuttle are all below the top 20 average. Add it all together and you can make a pretty convincing case that he doesn't have the high level physical tools needed to succeed at the pro level. The fact that his workout numbers are somewhat comparable to those of a modest success like Lynch doesn't in any way shape or form diminish the fact that the trends are stacked against Smith succeeding. I think this is worth knowing and factoring into your analysis regardless of what happens on draft day. He'll be the same player wherever he goes.
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Burning Sensation
Footballguy
Bizkiteer
Footballguy
What's really funny is that those who hate, will do so no matter what. The shuttle within itself is nothing, but when added to the other intangibles...it becomes more.
Hey, it's fine to not like a player and it's fine to like them too. You can talk yourself out of making any move if given enough time. Here is the point when you draft at 1.1:
You can't be the guy that passed up on the next great RB. Not that it makes it any better, but if he gets hurt or is a bust of some sort...nobody would blame you for taking him #1. Now, if you took someone else who was only a one year wonder or just a workout superstar jock...then people would always have something to hold against you as you talked yourself out of the logical pick. No prospect is perfect and a sure iron clad pick.
I'd point out that as far as McFadden, he was a threat to all opposing teams the moment he stepped on the college football field, that can't be said about all of the other RB's in this year's draft.
Hey, it's fine to not like a player and it's fine to like them too. You can talk yourself out of making any move if given enough time. Here is the point when you draft at 1.1:
You can't be the guy that passed up on the next great RB. Not that it makes it any better, but if he gets hurt or is a bust of some sort...nobody would blame you for taking him #1. Now, if you took someone else who was only a one year wonder or just a workout superstar jock...then people would always have something to hold against you as you talked yourself out of the logical pick. No prospect is perfect and a sure iron clad pick.
I'd point out that as far as McFadden, he was a threat to all opposing teams the moment he stepped on the college football field, that can't be said about all of the other RB's in this year's draft.
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Maroney=Speed
Footballguy
My point all along.
EBF
Footballguy
Smith's official time at the combine was 4.53.
He did better at his pro day:
If you want to eliminate the combine time and give him credit for his pro day time, you get the following numbers:40 - 4.47
Vert - 33.5"
BJ - 10'
Shuttle - 4.49
Not horrible, but not good either. His 40 time is solid. His 33.5" vert is weak. His 10' broad is solid, but unspectacular. His 4.49 shuttle is weak. Two average marks and two weak marks makes him below average overall.
If you're just looking at the workout numbers and the trends, he's a guy you probably want to avoid. That's all I'm really saying here.
Burning Sensation
Footballguy
BuckeyeArt
Footballguy
EBF
Footballguy
I think it's an important factor to consider. The numbers seem to suggest as much.
I don't think so. If he sucks, he'll lose his job no matter where he goes. If he's a beast, he'll eventually be productive wherever he goes. Situation can turn a good player into a great one (see: Clinton Portis), but it can't turn a marginal player into a great one (see: Tatum Bell). Owners who think Smith sucks shouldn't use a pick on him just because he goes to a good team in the 2nd round (see: JJ Arrington, Eric Shelton). However, I'll agree with the idea that he'd have a lot more value on a team like Detroit or Houston than on a team like Minnesota or San Francisco.
Burning Sensation
Footballguy
Its not even the team he goes to as much as where he gets drafted. It speaks volumes if Smith was the 4th RB drafted in a class this deep at RB. I dont care if he fell an inch or two short of an average vertical if NFL scouts deem him worthy of a 2nd round pick.When it comes to judging talent, combine results, etc. i trust the guys who get paid by NFL teams alot more than myself or anybody on a FF message board.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Burning Sensation
Footballguy
switz
Footballguy
You're thinking is FLAWED.Where a guy gets drafted is not about where "NFL scouts" in general rank him, just where NFL scouts of ONE TEAM rank him. Team matters a lot.
So, say SD drafts him as the 4th RB off the board, that's tremendously positive evidence that the guy is talented, as SD is very good at evaluating RBs. On the other hand, say it's CLE that drafts him as the 4th RB off the board... well, that's not so positive, as CLE has shown time and again they are terrible at evaluating college RBs for NFL ability.
So, team matters. Where are guy is drafted only represents the thinking of one team's scouts, not NFL scouts in general. Pre-draft rankings are a much better indicator of NFL scouts "consensus" opinion on players.
switz
Footballguy
Yes...And for those who knock Addai's talent - #13 best 40 time in past 8 years by RBs at the combine#14 best Vertical Jump in past 8 years by RBs at the combine#15 best Broad Jump in past 8 years by RBs at the combineAnd those apparently are widely viewed as the three most important combine measurements for NFL success.
Burning Sensation
Footballguy
Are you trying to tell me that you, or anyone else on this board are better than them?
switz
Footballguy
I'm trying to say that they have proven their ability to evaluate RBs time and again is far below par. Whether you or I, or anyone else on this board is better than them or not doesn't matter. Their drafting an RB is no indication of that RBs ability to be successful in the NFL at all.
Maroney=Speed
Footballguy
No, it's called History. That is what He's saying.
Jedimaster21
Footballguy
Burning Sensation
Footballguy
When drafting, i will always consider where, and by what team a player gets drafted way ahead of his vertical. You can have the guy who gets drafted in the 5th round because he had a 40" vertical, i will take the guy who gets drafted in the first round to a good situation even if he only manages a 35" vert.There are so many people that will never realize this, and they will draft due to situation every year.
EBF
Footballguy
There's a difference between something being all-important and unimportant. Workout numbers are not all-important, but they're not unimportant either. They offer insight into the sheer physical ability of a prospect. So in that regard I think it's clearly false to say that how high Smith jumped will have no bearing on his success. It's a direct indicator of his raw talent, which will most certainly factor into his NFL performance. Anyone who knows my tendencies knows that I don't draft by workout numbers alone. Chris Henry was a workout monster last year and I didn't pick him up in any leagues. At the same time, I'm not stubborn or blind enough to insist that workouts are irrelevant. If they were, teams wouldn't scrutinize them so closely. Given that most elite RB prospects meet certain benchmarks in workouts, I think it's fair to question any prospect who fails to meet those benchmarks. This idea is so simple that I can't believe it meets with such strong resistance.
EBF
Footballguy
What you've done here is taken the logic of the argument people have been making and extended it to a point of absurdity. NO ONE in this thread has suggested taking a 5th round guy with a good vert over a 2nd round guy. But that doesn't mean the vert isn't useful. I think workout numbers and draft position are a good way to draw distinction between players who appear to have similar pro prospects. They can sometimes shed light on sleepers who may have a higher upside than their hype would indicate. Does this mean I advocate taking Thomas Brown over Ray Rice just because he looks better on paper? Of course not. No one in this thread is making that argument, so I don't know why you're trying to make a rebuttal against it. What the level-headed people are saying is that combine numbers are a significant part of the overall evaluation process. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Burning Sensation
Footballguy
I dont disagree with a single thing you said. My point being is that it if he goes in the 2nd round despite his below average vertical, it will not really affect the way i feel about him. If Smith doesnt go until the 5th, i will assume the scouts agree that his vertical, amongst other thigns, makes him less than an appealing RB prospect.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Hmnnn. Not sure a guy who called out someone saying they had FLAWED thinking should use a flawed reasoning.In the nine seasons since Cleveland has returned to the NFL they have used two first day picks on RBs. Travis Prentice was taken eight years ago by then GM Dwight Clark and then six years ago the Browns used a late first round selection on William Green. The current front office with GM Phil Savage took over three years ago. He has only drafted two RBs in three years using a fifth round pick on Jerome Harrison who made the team and is currently a backup and a sixth round pick on Lawerence Vickers who played in the Pro Bowl last year as a FB. Savage hasn't needed to use a first day pick on a RB since he's done an excellent job landing free agent RBs.
He first signed Chester Taylor to an offer sheet and forced the Ravens to match him and pay extra to keep Taylor. That forced Taylor to leave the next year to Minnesota where he turned into a thousand yard rusher. Savage then traded a defensive lineman to Denver and got Reuben Droughns who rushed for over a thousand yards. The first RB to rush for a thousand yards in twenty years for Cleveland. Then last year Savage signed Jamal Lewis from the Ravens and Lewis ran for more yards than any Cleveland RB since 1968 and Hall of Fame RB Leroy Kelly. So I'd have to say if you think that the Browns have shown they can't draft RBs based on what Dwight Clark did eight years ago or what Butch Davis did six years ago that you would be incorrect. See the current Browns GM Phil Savage and his track record for how things have changed.
Liquid Tension
Footballguy
I don't want to assume what Switz was stating, but my take is that just because ONE NFL team decided to choose a RB in the "1st" round does not mean the guy is a first round talent. Point is maybe every NFL team had a guy scouted as a 6th round pick (excuse the hyperbole), yet one team took him in the 1st, would you still say that because player X was chosen in the 1st round that he is better than everyone on this board thinks?I know it seems awfully conceited to sit here and say "I know more than an NFL team," but it is also wrong to think that they don't make many mistakes and many time people on this board are right compared to the experts.
Personally, I trust my own judgment a lot, but if I don't have a lot of time REALLY watching a player, I have to defer to the experts and then adjust only slightly my own opinion. In football I trust the scouts a lot more than I do in baseball because I know the game of baseball at a higher level than football.
All this being said, I don't buy the argument that so and so was picked first so he is obviously a lot better than "you" thought.
Michael Fox Fan
Footballguy
Chris Henry to the Titans in round 2 should be all the evidence needed to prove LTs point above. If you need additional examples, try pretty much any early round pick when Mike Sherman was GM of the Packers.Liquid Tension said:
Donnybrook
Footballguy
I apologize in advance for the hijack but both of your sources suck. Harrison ran a 4.47 40 at the combine. http://www.beachthe.net/?cat=45 - look just over half way down the page. I only remember because he wasn't supposed to beat Calhoun who was also in his group of RBs.That being said, I lost patience with Harrison over a year ago and dropped him in my dynasty league. How could he not at least steal some carries away from an undrafted Jason Wright.
Burning Sensation
Footballguy
I think i missed the body of evidence you speak of.
Bizkiteer
Footballguy
You're not the only one...
