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BTW, I wasn't referring to you BSS, but some other posts from guys who obviously neither know the 49ers or Martz well enough to comment reasonably. And when I use the term 'ignorant' I don't mean 'stupid' but only 'not knowing.' I don't equate ignorant with stupid but know that some people do, and I hope this clarification avoids folks taking offense with the word.
I know. I think my take is pretty acurate I want to see what you have to say though being much closer to the SF situation than I.BTW, I wasn't referring to you BSS, but some other posts from guys who obviously neither know the 49ers or Martz well enough to comment reasonably. And wehn I use the term 'ignorant' I don't mean stupid, but only 'not knowing.' I don't equate ignorant with stupid but I do know some people do, and I hope this clarification avoids folks taking offense with the word.
Do you mean Winslow Sr for one of these guys?? Davis is not even close to Winslow in talent as a TE and Winslow has some of the greatest talent around him at that time. Dan Fouts, Wes Chandler, Charlie Joiner, John Jefferson, Chuck Muncie and a very talented line. Davis doesnt have that kind of talent around him and he like I said before not close to SR. Winlsow had a lot of open field to deal with with all that talent around himWould like to know who the other guy is you are talking about?? It might be Gonzo. In that case Davis could be compared because right now the Niners lack pass catchers like the Chefs have since Gonzo landed on the team. Davis maybe faster but in no way is he even in Gonzo's zone when it comes to TE.
The offense had to improve didn't it? With all the weapons they have been adding wouldn't you expect it to improve with or without Martz? Fact is it should have improved more if he is such a genius. There is a reason he was fired!Martz was then hired to be the OC.
Do you not get points for receiving yards or TDs?BusterTBronco said:
he didnt play a full season in 06 or 07BusterTBronco said:
Like it did Kevin Jones?
It's a rushing yards only league.Do you not get points for receiving yards or TDs?BusterTBronco said:Kevin Johnson2006 689 yards rushing (3.8 avg)2007 581 yards rushing (3.8 avg)You're right. Mike Martz was a godsend for Kevin Johnson owners.
Wow, Moss is useless??It's a rushing yards only league.Do you not get points for receiving yards or TDs?BusterTBronco said:Kevin Johnson2006 689 yards rushing (3.8 avg)2007 581 yards rushing (3.8 avg)You're right. Mike Martz was a godsend for Kevin Johnson owners.
This is the bottom line, though I don't think he's an ideal fit.Other thoughts
avis is their 2nd best offensive player, Martz isn't going to ignore him.I also don't think Smith has a guaranteed starters job like mentioned earlier in this thread. While his ability to scramble might be a plus in an offense that doesn't give him a lot of protection, he's just not very accurate (which I imagine would be a big problem w/ Martz). I wouldn't be surprised to see Hill start. I don't think it was just coincidence that when Hill came in, guys like Jackson and Davis were suddenly catching passes.
In 2005, the Niners had the worst offense in the league. Under Norv Turner in 2006, they improved--to the #26 offense in the league.They might not be #32, but they'll still be pretty dang bad.
Kevin Jones is no Frank Gore; never has been, never will be. I thought everyone knew that already.
As a Seahawks fan all I can say is...awesome.
You really think that's going to make them worse?
I wouldve rather had CC and Martz doesnt seem to be a good fit for the personell but Hostler was horrendous.
RECIPE FOR DISASTER1 team in turmoil
It could work short-term but Nolan is in trouble with this hire. Martz is notorious for his demands for autonomy but I'm guessing they addressed Gore and his role before putting pen to paper. I think you'll be happy at times and ready to kill him at times. I really like Nolan personally, I think he is a guy with a ton of integrity. Having Martz around is gonna be tough but the 49ers have the personnel.I wouldve rather had CC and Martz doesnt seem to be a good fit for the personell but Hostler was horrendous.
Sure...and under Norv Turner, Frank Gore had*** 2,180 yards from scrimmage*** 61 receptions*** 9 TDsAgain, if you read through the entire thread I think I clearly state my view that Martz, to my mind, wasn't the best hire possible b/c he puts his QBs in dangerous situations. However, the debate somehow devolved into lots of people suggesting this would be BAD for Gore and the rest of the SF offense. That's just silliness. The 49ers offense this year was the definition of ineptitude. Will Gore be an uber stud? I won't know that until I see what they do in the offseason and, to that point, what the offensive line looks like. But I can tell you that if he's healthy, he'll be a viable (if not studly) fantasy RB.Let's not forget that Gore caught 53 passes THIS YEAR and ran for 1,200+ yards...I can only hope that he falls into the mid- to late-first round this year's drafts.
Just saying that they improve is not an indicator of how successful Martz will be. They were the worst and have no where to go but up. Sure they are going to improve but at what cost? Alienating a young and talented TE who you used a high draft pick to get? Frustrating a young QB who you used the 1st pick in the draft to get? Going away from what proved to be successful 2 years ago, the power running game.
These guys are professional football players on a terrible team and they need to worry about winning games. Coach's coach and the players play and who cares if everyone is happy. In reality who's to say they won't be happy, this is totally your opinion that the players will be alienated. Winning tends to make teams happy and cures a lot of ills. Even when they had the power running game they were 7-9 and this year they regressed to 5-11, so they need to worry about winning games.
Jason Wood said:
Or maybe the FG K becomes the stud because in Detroit, when they had opportunities to pound it in the redzone for TD's Martz foolishly tried to throw. Thus Hansen with his best year since 98. I predict the same in SF. If Martz has to try and make Smith into something, Smith may want to take out extra medical insurance. He sucks as is, with Martz he will be worse. Martz blows and this group is far worse than Detroit. When does he bring in McDonald and the rejects he brought in before McDonald. He's not going to sit with Jackson, Lelie and the rest of them. Battle may have a spot.Otis said:
Agreed. Smith seems like a bright, likable guy. It is too bad has not really had a chance to truly develop.I see this as the perfect example of the ineptitude of the 49ers FO. Unless Cameron told the FO he would not take the job, they should have atleast interviewed him first. The personnel do not fit Martz system, but this will probably be the end of Smith. He will now have had 4 different OC in 4 years, each with a completely different system. Atleast Cameron's would have been able to piggyback off of Norvs system.
I have my doubts about Smith's ability to be a quality QB, but I would bet Manning, Brady, Montana, etc would be struggling if they started their careers out trying to run four different systems in four years.
Frustrated Niner fan
People are assuming Martz is an inflexible idiot. We all know the current roster doesn't fit his system, lets see how he adjusts. Nolan doesn't have the time to allow a total turnover of offensive personnel, and Martz has to know this going in.
He is kind of inflexible, I left the idiot part out. That is why he is not longer in Detroit, he runs his system and doesn't adjust to what he has. We'll see if getting fired again has changed him
You do realize that Martz, Cameron and Turner all run derivatives of the same system, right? They are all devout Don Coryell disciples.I see this as the perfect example of the ineptitude of the 49ers FO. Unless Cameron told the FO he would not take the job, they should have atleast interviewed him first. The personnel do not fit Martz system, but this will probably be the end of Smith. He will now have had 4 different OC in 4 years, each with a completely different system. Atleast Cameron's would have been able to piggyback off of Norvs system. I have my doubts about Smith's ability to be a quality QB, but I would bet Manning, Brady, Montana, etc would be struggling if they started their careers out trying to run four different systems in four years.Frustrated Niner fan
JW you are correct, but I think anyone watching mad Martz's system is at an extreme end of Coryell's system. Another reason I see failure for Smith is the supporting cast around him is not good (OL is weak and the Niners WRs are terrible). Even with the addition of DJax, there is no #1 level WR, maybe a slightly above average #2 in Battle (if he can get a #1 that will pull coverage away), and the rest of the receiving core is low level #3s and #4s. Unless V Davis is split out a lot or the Niners pick up a quality FA #1 WR, who will run the normal 4 WR set of Martz's system? The offense was horrendous this year with no direction, but I can see Martz and his system with a lot of 3 and outs next year. Yardage will be up, but I am not sure they will score much more than this season. Should be another long season for 49er fans just like every other one since York stuck their noses into the football operations.You do realize that Martz, Cameron and Turner all run derivatives of the same system, right? They are all devout Don Coryell disciples.I see this as the perfect example of the ineptitude of the 49ers FO. Unless Cameron told the FO he would not take the job, they should have atleast interviewed him first. The personnel do not fit Martz system, but this will probably be the end of Smith. He will now have had 4 different OC in 4 years, each with a completely different system. Atleast Cameron's would have been able to piggyback off of Norvs system. I have my doubts about Smith's ability to be a quality QB, but I would bet Manning, Brady, Montana, etc would be struggling if they started their careers out trying to run four different systems in four years.Frustrated Niner fan
Shaun Hill looked pretty impressive last season.A little late here but this will be aHe does not have a QB on roster that can make the quick thinking, strong arm throws his system demands. The O-line is not quality enough to hold up without help from TE and RB max protect. He has no where near the talent in the WR corps that is needed to make his system work. On top of all of that, the system is very complex and the first year will be a struggle. This will be the death of Nolan.
Martz's roots in the Coryell system seem to be limited to the terminology and the staple pass routes. The best representatives of the system in recent years have been Saunders, Turner and Zampese. Gibbs is on the other end of the spectrum from Martz.JW you are correct, but I think anyone watching mad Martz's system is at an extreme end of Coryell's system. Another reason I see failure for Smith is the supporting cast around him is not good (OL is weak and the Niners WRs are terrible). Even with the addition of DJax, there is no #1 level WR, maybe a slightly above average #2 in Battle (if he can get a #1 that will pull coverage away), and the rest of the receiving core is low level #3s and #4s. Unless V Davis is split out a lot or the Niners pick up a quality FA #1 WR, who will run the normal 4 WR set of Martz's system? The offense was horrendous this year with no direction, but I can see Martz and his system with a lot of 3 and outs next year. Yardage will be up, but I am not sure they will score much more than this season. Should be another long season for 49er fans just like every other one since York stuck their noses into the football operations.You do realize that Martz, Cameron and Turner all run derivatives of the same system, right? They are all devout Don Coryell disciples.I see this as the perfect example of the ineptitude of the 49ers FO. Unless Cameron told the FO he would not take the job, they should have atleast interviewed him first. The personnel do not fit Martz system, but this will probably be the end of Smith. He will now have had 4 different OC in 4 years, each with a completely different system. Atleast Cameron's would have been able to piggyback off of Norvs system. I have my doubts about Smith's ability to be a quality QB, but I would bet Manning, Brady, Montana, etc would be struggling if they started their careers out trying to run four different systems in four years.Frustrated Niner fan
I remember last year martz also said he will run the football....thecatch said:
You're also not taking into account the surrounding players. I still don't attribute Faulks success to Martz. Defenses having more weapons to cover in St. Louis giving Faulk more running room could have just as much to do with Faulks success. Or how about having an improved offesive line in St. Louis?When you compare the two teams Faulk played for you have to also compare the surrounding talent and how that could affect defenses, which in turn effects Faulks performance.
Sure but where at J? Lets not forget this is the system that made Mike Furrey and Shaun McDonald valuable in fantasy formats and left Kevin Jones in the dust. Maybe VD has a chance if Martz splits him out but I have serious doubts that this man who never valued the RB as a Head Coach or as a Coordinator under a defensive minded coach suddenly starts pounding the ball.
