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Clowney v Mack - You run the show. (1 Viewer)

Soulfly3

Soulfly3

Footballguy
Building a franchise from scratch and you are faced with the prospect of taking either Clowney or Mack. The player once taken, cannot be sold, bought out, traded etc. He is your team's player for LIFE, due to some made up rule that is completely illogical.

Knowing what you know at this point in time (college career, stats, combine, word of mouth) who would you draft and why?

 
Easily Clowney. There have been many prospects with Mack's athletic profile and their NFL success is all over the spectrum. There is no comp for Clowney and his potential in spite of his baggage.

 
Even scarier is that we're supposed to believe Mack is playing with 100% effort and Clowney with 50%.

 
I'm terrified of Clowney being an unmotivated bust after getting paid, but you don't pass on DE with his upside for virtually anything other than QB.

 
cstu said:
Soulfly3 said:
cstu said:
Watch them both play - you'll know.
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I have.

I posed the question a particular way to look beyond pure freakishness, to get some in depth discussion
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Your question is phrased as if Clowney is going to be some sort of locker room cancer and I don't see him becoming that so I'd rather have Clowney.
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It's not phrased like that, at all.

It leaves the possibility open for it - but doesn't indicate it (especially since I believe it's not true).

 
Rotoworld:

A "handful of evaluators" prefer Buffalo OLB Khalil Mack to South Carolina DE Jadeveon Clowney, reports ESPN's Chris Mortensen.
Mortensen mentions Mack's "skills, consistency and versatility" in the report. Mack isn't more skilled than Clowney, who is one of the freakiest athletes to enter the NFL in the past decade. But he does offer more consistency than the hot-and-cold former Gamecock, and he's certainly more versatile, with a diversified skill set that will allow him to line up all over the place to put him in the best position to sic the quarterback.

Source: Chris Mortensen on Twitter
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Faust said:
Rotoworld:

A "handful of evaluators" prefer Buffalo OLB Khalil Mack to South Carolina DE Jadeveon Clowney, reports ESPN's Chris Mortensen.
Mortensen mentions Mack's "skills, consistency and versatility" in the report. Mack isn't more skilled than Clowney, who is one of the freakiest athletes to enter the NFL in the past decade. But he does offer more consistency than the hot-and-cold former Gamecock, and he's certainly more versatile, with a diversified skill set that will allow him to line up all over the place to put him in the best position to sic the quarterback.

Source: Chris Mortensen on Twitter
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always a few dumb ####s in every group

 
There is no debate that Clowney possesses hall of fame caliber talent, but will he play hard and be responsive to coaching? He should be a ten time all pro, but does he care enough to commit to the process?

I would take Clowney , too because of the skill set and the potential to be a transformative player, but the mental part should give everyone some pause.

Mack is going to be consistent and versatile and he's no stiff. He has pro bowl talent too. I'd be thrilled to land either.

 
Clowney easily. Better talent. Perhaps the best talent in a decade. Higher priority position.

 
Mayock/NFL Network move draft position. You can't ignore that when talking about Mack. I don't think his performance or combine really stoodout enough to be considered the #1 defensive player in the draft.

 
Im actually pretty intrigued at how many Clowney's there are for this "scenario"

a consistently high output w extreme versatility (Mack)

v

HOF calibre talent w reported inconsistencies and desire (Clowney)

My head still tells me I should go Clowney... My heart tells me Mack

 
I think we need in depth discussion or at least explanation on this rule where you cannot trade or cut a player after drafting him. When was it instituted? Who voted for it? What was the reasoning? We shouldn't participate in this hypothetical unless we open the black box here.

 
Can I play Clowney both ways? He has the size, speed, and agility to be one hell of a T.E. He might be an interesting Red Zone Target, presuming he has opposable thumbs.

 
You presumably can play your players however you see fit.

Clowney - HOF, GOAT type talent (whether he reaches that... who knows?)

Mack - Pro bowls, but less likely to be a HOF type player. Still possible of course.

Just my opinion of course, but I'd take both over the QBs in this draft. Clowney first.

 
I get the feeling that Clowney's career path is somewhat dependent on what team he goes to regarding the ability to keep him motivated.

 
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FUBAR said:
You presumably can play your players however you see fit.

Clowney - HOF, GOAT type talent (whether he reaches that... who knows?)

Mack - Pro bowls, but less likely to be a HOF type player. Still possible of course.

Just my opinion of course, but I'd take both over the QBs in this draft. Clowney first.
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IMO Mack is the safest player in this draft. In terms of understanding the game, instincts and ability to play OLB there's no one better. He's a Pro Bowl player within two years and I don't feel it's an exaggeration to say that. You watch him and he plays exactly like a pro.

The difference is that Clowney is an incredible pass rushing DE and is entering a league dominated by passing. He's a difference making DE and you put him along side another difference making DE like Watt and you have a nightmare for QB's. Just not enough guys to block these two. The bottom line is that if you can disrupt the opposing team's passing game, you can win.

I think Mack is a better system fit (and better overall player) for the Texans but in terms of impact Clowney is the guy I want.

 
cstu said:
FUBAR said:
You presumably can play your players however you see fit.

Clowney - HOF, GOAT type talent (whether he reaches that... who knows?)

Mack - Pro bowls, but less likely to be a HOF type player. Still possible of course.

Just my opinion of course, but I'd take both over the QBs in this draft. Clowney first.
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IMO Mack is the safest player in this draft.
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Greg Robinson is a franchise OT... He is the safest player in this draft. I also think Matthews is as close to safe as you can get.

 
fantasycurse42 said:
cstu said:
FUBAR said:
You presumably can play your players however you see fit.

Clowney - HOF, GOAT type talent (whether he reaches that... who knows?)

Mack - Pro bowls, but less likely to be a HOF type player. Still possible of course.

Just my opinion of course, but I'd take both over the QBs in this draft. Clowney first.
Click to expand...
IMO Mack is the safest player in this draft.
Click to expand...
Greg Robinson is a franchise OT... He is the safest player in this draft. I also think Matthews is as close to safe as you can get.
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:yes: I've come down a little on my expectations for Matthews, but he'll be a franchise T. Maybe not a pro bowler, but a guy you can rely on.

 
fantasycurse42 said:
cstu said:
FUBAR said:
You presumably can play your players however you see fit.

Clowney - HOF, GOAT type talent (whether he reaches that... who knows?)

Mack - Pro bowls, but less likely to be a HOF type player. Still possible of course.

Just my opinion of course, but I'd take both over the QBs in this draft. Clowney first.
Click to expand...
IMO Mack is the safest player in this draft.
Click to expand...
Greg Robinson is a franchise OT... He is the safest player in this draft. I also think Matthews is as close to safe as you can get.
Click to expand...
Robinson doesn't look as NFL ready yet, although I think he will develop into an All-Pro LT.

Matthews is technically sound, I'm just not sure how great he'll be. Very high floor though and shouldn't be a bust.

Mack doesn't have any flaws in his game that I can see and he has the athletic ability to be an elite OLB. The last can't-miss OLB I saw was DeMarcus Ware and I expect Mack to be just a similar player.

 
The "can't miss" / flop proof players in this draft, imo are Clowney, Robinson, Matthews and Watkins.

Mack, Im still not sure... I love what I see, but when I watch Barr against superior opposition, I feel like he's safer than Mack. Would gladly have him tho.

This is why Browns can't go QB at 4... you can't get a go kart engine and hope you can tune it into a V12, when you already have V12s sitting there ready for use.

 
Soulfly3 said:
The "can't miss" / flop proof players in this draft, imo are Clowney, Robinson, Matthews and Watkins.

Mack, Im still not sure... I love what I see, but when I watch Barr against superior opposition, I feel like he's safer than Mack. Would gladly have him tho.

This is why Browns can't go QB at 4... you can't get a go kart engine and hope you can tune it into a V12, when you already have V12s sitting there ready for use.
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I agree with Barr over Mack in terms of higher floor...

Clowney to me has a very low floor as I think there is a fair amount of risk associated with him. I think he produces in his rookie season, but don't feel he has the ethic to continually produce over the years. Hopefully I'm wrong as he def has the natural talent to be special.

I'd say Robinson, Matthews, Watkins are the safest... However, I think WRs can miss here and there. Not saying Crabtree is a bust by any stretch as he is solid, but coming out of Texas Tech he was supposed to be the next Jerry Rice.

 
cstu said:
fantasycurse42 said:
cstu said:
FUBAR said:
You presumably can play your players however you see fit.

Clowney - HOF, GOAT type talent (whether he reaches that... who knows?)

Mack - Pro bowls, but less likely to be a HOF type player. Still possible of course.

Just my opinion of course, but I'd take both over the QBs in this draft. Clowney first.
Click to expand...
IMO Mack is the safest player in this draft.
Click to expand...
Greg Robinson is a franchise OT... He is the safest player in this draft. I also think Matthews is as close to safe as you can get.
Click to expand...
Robinson doesn't look as NFL ready yet, although I think he will develop into an All-Pro LT.

Matthews is technically sound, I'm just not sure how great he'll be. Very high floor though and shouldn't be a bust.

Mack doesn't have any flaws in his game that I can see and he has the athletic ability to be an elite OLB. The last can't-miss OLB I saw was DeMarcus Ware and I expect Mack to be just a similar player.
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I like Barr better just based on the level of competition he has seen over the years. Honestly, I think they'll both be solid though.

 
fantasycurse42 said:
cstu said:
fantasycurse42 said:
cstu said:
FUBAR said:
You presumably can play your players however you see fit.

Clowney - HOF, GOAT type talent (whether he reaches that... who knows?)

Mack - Pro bowls, but less likely to be a HOF type player. Still possible of course.

Just my opinion of course, but I'd take both over the QBs in this draft. Clowney first.
Click to expand...
IMO Mack is the safest player in this draft.
Click to expand...
Greg Robinson is a franchise OT... He is the safest player in this draft. I also think Matthews is as close to safe as you can get.
Click to expand...
Robinson doesn't look as NFL ready yet, although I think he will develop into an All-Pro LT.

Matthews is technically sound, I'm just not sure how great he'll be. Very high floor though and shouldn't be a bust.

Mack doesn't have any flaws in his game that I can see and he has the athletic ability to be an elite OLB. The last can't-miss OLB I saw was DeMarcus Ware and I expect Mack to be just a similar player.
Click to expand...
I like Barr better just based on the level of competition he has seen over the years. Honestly, I think they'll both be solid though.
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No question Barr could be great but I saw him get wrapped up too much one on one. He needs to get stronger and better at technique if he wants to dominate in the NFL.

 
duaneok66 said:
How can you be "flop p.of" if ther. questions about your motivation and drive??
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IMO there shouldn't be questions about his motivation and drive. Like I've said I've watched every play from the video that's available of him and don't see where this talk is coming from.

 
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My fear with Clowney would be that he turns into a Mario Williams. Mario has tons of talent, but clearly does not play 100% all the time. He'll dominate for 10 minutes or a quarter or a half, but then disappear for the rest of the game or for entire games.

With some rumors out there that a deal is possibly in place for Buffalo to trade up to #2 to take Clowney, I'm a little terrified. Mario on one side and Clowney on the other could be one of the most fierce d-lines in NFL history. Or it could be two guys with tons of talent but low motivation and would cost the Bills 2 firsts and a second to get.

 
GroveDiesel said:
My fear with Clowney would be that he turns into a Mario Williams. Mario has tons of talent, but clearly does not play 100% all the time. He'll dominate for 10 minutes or a quarter or a half, but then disappear for the rest of the game or for entire games.

With some rumors out there that a deal is possibly in place for Buffalo to trade up to #2 to take Clowney, I'm a little terrified. Mario on one side and Clowney on the other could be one of the most fierce d-lines in NFL history. Or it could be two guys with tons of talent but low motivation and would cost the Bills 2 firsts and a second to get.
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imhavent watched Williams much but isn't it possible that teams just adjust to Williams to limit his effect?
 
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jurb26 said:
GroveDiesel said:
My fear with Clowney would be that he turns into a Mario Williams. Mario has tons of talent, but clearly does not play 100% all the time. He'll dominate for 10 minutes or a quarter or a half, but then disappear for the rest of the game or for entire games.

With some rumors out there that a deal is possibly in place for Buffalo to trade up to #2 to take Clowney, I'm a little terrified. Mario on one side and Clowney on the other could be one of the most fierce d-lines in NFL history. Or it could be two guys with tons of talent but low motivation and would cost the Bills 2 firsts and a second to get.
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imhavent watched Williams much but isn't it possible that teams just adjust to Williams to limit his effect?
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He wasn't really double teamed a whole lot. Hard to double team him a ton with Kyle Williams, Dareus and Hughes crushing the rest of the line all the time. I bet Kyle Williams got doubled more than Mario.

 
it probably is not much of a stretch to say the owner who has to foot the bill for Clowney must feel like he is playing roulette with his money. The Mario owner had guaranteed $50 million on a $100milion contract, wonder how he is feeling about that now?

 
nihsumi said:
it probably is not much of a stretch to say the owner who has to foot the bill for Clowney must feel like he is playing roulette with his money. The Mario owner had guaranteed $50 million on a $100milion contract, wonder how he is feeling about that now?
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Well, he's dead...so......

 
nihsumi said:
it probably is not much of a stretch to say the owner who has to foot the bill for Clowney must feel like he is playing roulette with his money. The Mario owner had guaranteed $50 million on a $100milion contract, wonder how he is feeling about that now?
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Clowney will be getting a deal similar to Eric Fisher's 4 year/$22M deal with $16M guaranteed.

 
nihsumi said:
it probably is not much of a stretch to say the owner who has to foot the bill for Clowney must feel like he is playing roulette with his money. The Mario owner had guaranteed $50 million on a $100milion contract, wonder how he is feeling about that now?
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If he were alive, he'd probably feel better about that contract than if he drafted Bush (took him awhile to become good) or VY.

 
Clowney declines private workouts. Didnt realize the "freakish" talent only had 3 sacks last season.

Sapp and Evans question Clowney's work ethic.

Aside:

@Fubar Texans taking Bush #1 is I guess what your saying? Time to cut bait w/Mario?

2014: $13.8 million.

2015: $14.4 million

2016: $15.3 million.

2017: $14.9 million

Florio wisely points out that this (2014) is a critical point in the deal. It is uniquely structured to get the Bills out of the remainder of the deal in the (hopefully unlikely) event that things aren't working out. This is why the base salary is so low, and the roster bonus so high: if the Bills were to cut Williams prior to the 2014 season, they would still be on the hook for the salary, but not for the bonus and other scheduled payments.

Mario Williams contract

 
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