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Ran a 10k in June (1 Viewer)

Thanks for all of the cadence replies. I will be attending the class at fleet feet tonight. I am sure I will have more questions.

 
Ned said:
Juxtatarot said:
tri-man 47 said:
(Juxt is a very fast stepper, though ..)
Wow! You noticed something like this?

After a discussion here about cadence last winter, I counted several times during treadmill runs. I was at about 180 at a medium pace, a little lower during slower paces and a little higher when running fast. I'm not sure if my cadence is different running on streets. I'm curious what some others here are at.

I'm a midfoot striker. Playing around, I have tried out a heel strike on runs for kicks. I don't know how most people do that. It seems so awkward (to me) and inefficient.
I'm a long strider and can't imagine being at 180 on anything but intervals...The motoactv counts your steps (I assumed based on arm swing since I don't use a footpod). I don't know how accurate it is, but I looked at a few of my different runs from last few weeks...

Recovery: 155-157

Long Run: 162-163

MP: 168-169

HM race: 170-171 (hit 181 on final sprint)

800m intervals: 180-181 (did hit 184 on 2nd interval)
Last night I was under the impression that the cadence would not change pace? Maybe I misunderstood.
If your step length is constant, then cadence changes your speed.Figure you want to run a 8 minute Mile. If you take 180 steps in a minute, your step length would be 1/1440 mile or 3'8" If you take 160 steps in a minute, to run a 8 minute Mile, your step length would be 4'1.5" If your step length remained 4'1.5" and you take 180 steps per minute, that's roughly a 7 minute Mile.

 
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5 miles tonite at a pace slower than what's required to embarass Gru in front of his friends and it was a border tempo effort.

 
The form clinic went well.

Learned about slight forward bend from the feet not your waist.

Proper way to move/hold arms when running.

Proper head position.

Best thing I did was the cadence deal. Instructor had a metronome and had us run at 160,170,180 BPM. It certainly helped with the heel striking. It was explained and demonstrated that the 180 cadence can be done standing still, at 14:00 mile, 5:00 mile, etc. I can not say I fully understood howthat is but I was messing with it and I was able to do it. Fubar above seems to get it with his explanation. The part I do not get is the step length is not in the forward stride but the length behind you?

Instructor said you should never see your feet in front of you. He also explained about less time in the air is better. He had some math using a marathon to explain this and it made sense to me. He also talked about running silent and if you hear your feet you are probably doing it wrong. I am certainly guilty of this.

Kona rep was there and I tried on some of their shoes. VERY cushioney, it was like walking with pillows on my feet. He says they were considered minimalist because the drop from heel to toe was ? 4mm ( I am not sure of the exact mm)

Kind of cool shoes that are supposed to make you run without a heel strike. :shrug:

All in all I did like the clinic and I feel I learned something. I am going to try to run using the metronome to get the right cadence. I downloaded a free app to my phone for this. I am not a fan of carrying my phone when running but I can not spend $35.00 for a running metronome.

 
MAC_32 said:
FUBAR said:
Honest/serious question. Am I running my recovery runs too fast?

Just today, went for a planned 5 mile recovery run (went 5.5, but close enough). Figured I'd just go comfortable for the first mile. Check the watch, 7:57 go another comfortable mile, 7:56. Force myself to slow down, 8:12 for the 3rd, 8:24 for the 4th. Did the 5th at 8:01. last half was just under 4. Legs feel sore/tired, but I wasn't pushing.

I did count my steps a few times over the last 1.5 miles for a minute or 30 seconds and was very consistent at 180/minute.

Maybe it's the cadence, but I always struggle to run slow on my recovery runs or intervals.

I know, this is a "First world problem"
From the perspective of someone who has the same problems, this is what I did with recovery runs - I stopped scheduling them. When I did I'd do them either right and get nothing out of them or wrong and waste my run. I run recovery runs when I feel like my body needs it now. When I do them I'll mix in strength training throughout to keep my brain focused, prevent me from running too fast, and...well, strength training is good for you. I've been having a lot more success with both since I started doing this, definitely going to be more challenging come winter though. Push up's with blowing snow in my face doesn't sound like a good time.
FUBAR - what are some of your current PRs? Its hard to tell what kind of runner you are from the current tri training. Unless you're a 1:20 half marathoner, that recovery run was too fast. IMHO, you can't run them too slow, but you can run them too fast. For reference.... My PR is 1:32 and my recovery runs vary between 9:30-10:00. Boring as all hell, but as tri-man put it best - it feels like I'm blood doping after some of these recovery runs. I think they're a big key to why I've been able to recover so fast throughout my training.

MAC - You're ignoring a big part of training by never scheduling recovery runs. There's a big benefit to running them... The sole purpose is to increase bloodflow to your legs, which brings more nutrients to those little micro tears you created from the previous hard workouts. More nutrients = faster recovery. It shouldn't be a "workout". You should feel like you did almost nothing; feeling refreshed more than anything.

 
FUBAR - what are some of your current PRs? Its hard to tell what kind of runner you are from the current tri training. Unless you're a 1:20 half marathoner, that recovery run was too fast. IMHO, you can't run them too slow, but you can run them too fast. For reference.... My PR is 1:32 and my recovery runs vary between 9:30-10:00. Boring as all hell, but as tri-man put it best - it feels like I'm blood doping after some of these recovery runs. I think they're a big key to why I've been able to recover so fast throughout my training.
The last HM I did was after coming off injury in Nashville with 1:39 My best guess is I'm right around your PR now.

I'll need to re-look the recovery run.

For the group's amusement: http://ilovebicycling.com/10-best-cycling-quotes/

Don’t know if it’s illegal to be handsome and ride a bike at the same time but whatever, I live dangerously.

 
Recently made a shoe switch to help with foot pain. Causing me some blister and toe issues, but foot is feeling a ton better. Been able to finally get in several runs. Going to do 7 tomorrow night and ten this weekend as final prep for the disney half. Hoping by then my foot will be healed sufficiently to go back to my other shoes.

 
FUBAR - what are some of your current PRs? Its hard to tell what kind of runner you are from the current tri training. Unless you're a 1:20 half marathoner, that recovery run was too fast. IMHO, you can't run them too slow, but you can run them too fast. For reference.... My PR is 1:32 and my recovery runs vary between 9:30-10:00. Boring as all hell, but as tri-man put it best - it feels like I'm blood doping after some of these recovery runs. I think they're a big key to why I've been able to recover so fast throughout my training.
The last HM I did was after coming off injury in Nashville with 1:39 My best guess is I'm right around your PR now.

I'll need to re-look the recovery run.

For the group's amusement: http://ilovebicycling.com/10-best-cycling-quotes/

Don’t know if it’s illegal to be handsome and ride a bike at the same time but whatever, I live dangerously.
:lmao:

My biggest fear is that when I die my wife will sell my bicycles for what I told her they cost.
 
Had an amazing 11mi MLR this morning. One of those runs where you just get stronger as it goes on. Pacing was sooooooo consistent it was scary. 8:58, 8:36, 8:39, 8:39, 8:37, 8:37, 8:34, 8:32, 8:35, 8:33, 8:27. Avg 8:37/140. Single fastest MLR I've ever had, let alone at this low of a HR.

This month has been too good to be true...

 
MAC_32 said:
FUBAR said:
Honest/serious question. Am I running my recovery runs too fast?

Just today, went for a planned 5 mile recovery run (went 5.5, but close enough). Figured I'd just go comfortable for the first mile. Check the watch, 7:57 go another comfortable mile, 7:56. Force myself to slow down, 8:12 for the 3rd, 8:24 for the 4th. Did the 5th at 8:01. last half was just under 4. Legs feel sore/tired, but I wasn't pushing.

I did count my steps a few times over the last 1.5 miles for a minute or 30 seconds and was very consistent at 180/minute.

Maybe it's the cadence, but I always struggle to run slow on my recovery runs or intervals.

I know, this is a "First world problem"
From the perspective of someone who has the same problems, this is what I did with recovery runs - I stopped scheduling them. When I did I'd do them either right and get nothing out of them or wrong and waste my run. I run recovery runs when I feel like my body needs it now. When I do them I'll mix in strength training throughout to keep my brain focused, prevent me from running too fast, and...well, strength training is good for you. I've been having a lot more success with both since I started doing this, definitely going to be more challenging come winter though. Push up's with blowing snow in my face doesn't sound like a good time.
FUBAR - what are some of your current PRs? Its hard to tell what kind of runner you are from the current tri training. Unless you're a 1:20 half marathoner, that recovery run was too fast. IMHO, you can't run them too slow, but you can run them too fast. For reference.... My PR is 1:32 and my recovery runs vary between 9:30-10:00. Boring as all hell, but as tri-man put it best - it feels like I'm blood doping after some of these recovery runs. I think they're a big key to why I've been able to recover so fast throughout my training.

MAC - You're ignoring a big part of training by never scheduling recovery runs. There's a big benefit to running them... The sole purpose is to increase bloodflow to your legs, which brings more nutrients to those little micro tears you created from the previous hard workouts. More nutrients = faster recovery. It shouldn't be a "workout". You should feel like you did almost nothing; feeling refreshed more than anything.
Given what I've been doing the last 8 weeks or so I end up doing a recovery run about every week-10 days, which I believe is about how often most of you are doing them. I think I am getting more from them now because instead of scheduling them in advance I am doing them when my body tells me to do one. I had a great run of workouts the last few days, but yesterday my body entered the beginning stages of screaming uncle, so today I am doing a recovery run. I'm still having issues slowing down enough to do a proper recovery run, so I mix in strength training with it every couple of minutes - push up's, dips, abs, hip swings, lunges, calf raises/walks, etc. This fatigues me enough so I maintain a slow pace on the run portion of the workout. When I'm done I'm huffing and puffing, but it has nothing to do with my legs - they've been feeling great once I'm done.

It's absolutely not normal, but I think it's working as I'm getting the benefits while it's masking my weakness of not being disciplined enough to slow down.

 
MAC_32 said:
FUBAR said:
Honest/serious question. Am I running my recovery runs too fast?

Just today, went for a planned 5 mile recovery run (went 5.5, but close enough). Figured I'd just go comfortable for the first mile. Check the watch, 7:57 go another comfortable mile, 7:56. Force myself to slow down, 8:12 for the 3rd, 8:24 for the 4th. Did the 5th at 8:01. last half was just under 4. Legs feel sore/tired, but I wasn't pushing.

I did count my steps a few times over the last 1.5 miles for a minute or 30 seconds and was very consistent at 180/minute.

Maybe it's the cadence, but I always struggle to run slow on my recovery runs or intervals.

I know, this is a "First world problem"
From the perspective of someone who has the same problems, this is what I did with recovery runs - I stopped scheduling them. When I did I'd do them either right and get nothing out of them or wrong and waste my run. I run recovery runs when I feel like my body needs it now. When I do them I'll mix in strength training throughout to keep my brain focused, prevent me from running too fast, and...well, strength training is good for you. I've been having a lot more success with both since I started doing this, definitely going to be more challenging come winter though. Push up's with blowing snow in my face doesn't sound like a good time.
FUBAR - what are some of your current PRs? Its hard to tell what kind of runner you are from the current tri training. Unless you're a 1:20 half marathoner, that recovery run was too fast. IMHO, you can't run them too slow, but you can run them too fast. For reference.... My PR is 1:32 and my recovery runs vary between 9:30-10:00. Boring as all hell, but as tri-man put it best - it feels like I'm blood doping after some of these recovery runs. I think they're a big key to why I've been able to recover so fast throughout my training.

MAC - You're ignoring a big part of training by never scheduling recovery runs. There's a big benefit to running them... The sole purpose is to increase bloodflow to your legs, which brings more nutrients to those little micro tears you created from the previous hard workouts. More nutrients = faster recovery. It shouldn't be a "workout". You should feel like you did almost nothing; feeling refreshed more than anything.
Given what I've been doing the last 8 weeks or so I end up doing a recovery run about every week-10 days, which I believe is about how often most of you are doing them. I think I am getting more from them now because instead of scheduling them in advance I am doing them when my body tells me to do one. I had a great run of workouts the last few days, but yesterday my body entered the beginning stages of screaming uncle, so today I am doing a recovery run. I'm still having issues slowing down enough to do a proper recovery run, so I mix in strength training with it every couple of minutes - push up's, dips, abs, hip swings, lunges, calf raises/walks, etc. This fatigues me enough so I maintain a slow pace on the run portion of the workout. When I'm done I'm huffing and puffing, but it has nothing to do with my legs - they've been feeling great once I'm done.

It's absolutely not normal, but I think it's working as I'm getting the benefits while it's masking my weakness of not being disciplined enough to slow down.
Keep on doing what works for you, I guess. I can't see doing lunges and all that when my legs are screaming uncle. The purpose of recovery isn't to fatigue anything. Just do enough to get the blood flowin'. Nothing more to it than that.

I do 1-2 recovery runs/week.

 
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MAC_32 said:
FUBAR said:
Honest/serious question. Am I running my recovery runs too fast?

Just today, went for a planned 5 mile recovery run (went 5.5, but close enough). Figured I'd just go comfortable for the first mile. Check the watch, 7:57 go another comfortable mile, 7:56. Force myself to slow down, 8:12 for the 3rd, 8:24 for the 4th. Did the 5th at 8:01. last half was just under 4. Legs feel sore/tired, but I wasn't pushing.

I did count my steps a few times over the last 1.5 miles for a minute or 30 seconds and was very consistent at 180/minute.

Maybe it's the cadence, but I always struggle to run slow on my recovery runs or intervals.

I know, this is a "First world problem"
From the perspective of someone who has the same problems, this is what I did with recovery runs - I stopped scheduling them. When I did I'd do them either right and get nothing out of them or wrong and waste my run. I run recovery runs when I feel like my body needs it now. When I do them I'll mix in strength training throughout to keep my brain focused, prevent me from running too fast, and...well, strength training is good for you. I've been having a lot more success with both since I started doing this, definitely going to be more challenging come winter though. Push up's with blowing snow in my face doesn't sound like a good time.
FUBAR - what are some of your current PRs? Its hard to tell what kind of runner you are from the current tri training. Unless you're a 1:20 half marathoner, that recovery run was too fast. IMHO, you can't run them too slow, but you can run them too fast. For reference.... My PR is 1:32 and my recovery runs vary between 9:30-10:00. Boring as all hell, but as tri-man put it best - it feels like I'm blood doping after some of these recovery runs. I think they're a big key to why I've been able to recover so fast throughout my training.

MAC - You're ignoring a big part of training by never scheduling recovery runs. There's a big benefit to running them... The sole purpose is to increase bloodflow to your legs, which brings more nutrients to those little micro tears you created from the previous hard workouts. More nutrients = faster recovery. It shouldn't be a "workout". You should feel like you did almost nothing; feeling refreshed more than anything.
Given what I've been doing the last 8 weeks or so I end up doing a recovery run about every week-10 days, which I believe is about how often most of you are doing them. I think I am getting more from them now because instead of scheduling them in advance I am doing them when my body tells me to do one. I had a great run of workouts the last few days, but yesterday my body entered the beginning stages of screaming uncle, so today I am doing a recovery run. I'm still having issues slowing down enough to do a proper recovery run, so I mix in strength training with it every couple of minutes - push up's, dips, abs, hip swings, lunges, calf raises/walks, etc. This fatigues me enough so I maintain a slow pace on the run portion of the workout. When I'm done I'm huffing and puffing, but it has nothing to do with my legs - they've been feeling great once I'm done.

It's absolutely not normal, but I think it's working as I'm getting the benefits while it's masking my weakness of not being disciplined enough to slow down.
Keep on doing what works for you, I guess. I can't see doing lunges and all that when my legs are screaming uncle. The purpose of recovery isn't to fatigue anything. Just do enough to get the blood flowin'. Nothing more to it than that.

I do 1-2 recovery runs/week.
Lunges are a totally different stress on the legs than running, hip swings too, build leg strength to offset the running wear and tear. That said, I usually follow this workout with a day of rest because my muscles still need to properly recover before the next training segment. Idea is to be back to normal Friday, in this case, then make more progress the next 7-10 days than I did the last 7-10 days.

 
MAC_32 said:
FUBAR said:
Honest/serious question. Am I running my recovery runs too fast?

Just today, went for a planned 5 mile recovery run (went 5.5, but close enough). Figured I'd just go comfortable for the first mile. Check the watch, 7:57 go another comfortable mile, 7:56. Force myself to slow down, 8:12 for the 3rd, 8:24 for the 4th. Did the 5th at 8:01. last half was just under 4. Legs feel sore/tired, but I wasn't pushing.

I did count my steps a few times over the last 1.5 miles for a minute or 30 seconds and was very consistent at 180/minute.

Maybe it's the cadence, but I always struggle to run slow on my recovery runs or intervals.

I know, this is a "First world problem"
From the perspective of someone who has the same problems, this is what I did with recovery runs - I stopped scheduling them. When I did I'd do them either right and get nothing out of them or wrong and waste my run. I run recovery runs when I feel like my body needs it now. When I do them I'll mix in strength training throughout to keep my brain focused, prevent me from running too fast, and...well, strength training is good for you. I've been having a lot more success with both since I started doing this, definitely going to be more challenging come winter though. Push up's with blowing snow in my face doesn't sound like a good time.
FUBAR - what are some of your current PRs? Its hard to tell what kind of runner you are from the current tri training. Unless you're a 1:20 half marathoner, that recovery run was too fast. IMHO, you can't run them too slow, but you can run them too fast. For reference.... My PR is 1:32 and my recovery runs vary between 9:30-10:00. Boring as all hell, but as tri-man put it best - it feels like I'm blood doping after some of these recovery runs. I think they're a big key to why I've been able to recover so fast throughout my training.

MAC - You're ignoring a big part of training by never scheduling recovery runs. There's a big benefit to running them... The sole purpose is to increase bloodflow to your legs, which brings more nutrients to those little micro tears you created from the previous hard workouts. More nutrients = faster recovery. It shouldn't be a "workout". You should feel like you did almost nothing; feeling refreshed more than anything.
Given what I've been doing the last 8 weeks or so I end up doing a recovery run about every week-10 days, which I believe is about how often most of you are doing them. I think I am getting more from them now because instead of scheduling them in advance I am doing them when my body tells me to do one. I had a great run of workouts the last few days, but yesterday my body entered the beginning stages of screaming uncle, so today I am doing a recovery run. I'm still having issues slowing down enough to do a proper recovery run, so I mix in strength training with it every couple of minutes - push up's, dips, abs, hip swings, lunges, calf raises/walks, etc. This fatigues me enough so I maintain a slow pace on the run portion of the workout. When I'm done I'm huffing and puffing, but it has nothing to do with my legs - they've been feeling great once I'm done.

It's absolutely not normal, but I think it's working as I'm getting the benefits while it's masking my weakness of not being disciplined enough to slow down.
Keep on doing what works for you, I guess. I can't see doing lunges and all that when my legs are screaming uncle. The purpose of recovery isn't to fatigue anything. Just do enough to get the blood flowin'. Nothing more to it than that.

I do 1-2 recovery runs/week.
Lunges are a totally different stress on the legs than running, hip swings too, build leg strength to offset the running wear and tear. That said, I usually follow this workout with a day of rest because my muscles still need to properly recover before the next training segment. Idea is to be back to normal Friday, in this case, then make more progress the next 7-10 days than I did the last 7-10 days.
Is it best to work in lunges and other leg exercises on days you run or days you don't run?

 
Keep on doing what works for you, I guess. I can't see doing lunges and all that when my legs are screaming uncle. The purpose of recovery isn't to fatigue anything. Just do enough to get the blood flowin'. Nothing more to it than that.

I do 1-2 recovery runs/week.
You're not going to convince him any differently, Ned. You're looking at it the right way.

 
Is it best to work in lunges and other leg exercises on days you run or days you don't run?
I think it really depends on the rest of your training and your current conditioning. If you run 3-4 days/week you'll probably get the most benefit from strength training on off days. Since I usually run 5-6 days/week there really isn't much of an opportunity to leg strengthening exercises on non running days, so I do them (and other strength training) on my lighter running days. The weeks that I only run 5 times it's usually because the 6th day was a heavy yard work day, so I'll do some strength training when I'm done those days too. What specifically depends on what I'm doing in the yard, whatever it is it is usually most stressful on my back so I usually just focus on legs and abs but if my back is feeling unsually fine afterwards I'll do some push up's, dips, etc. too.

Regardless of your regimen, I don't think it's a good idea to do lunges on hard running days because you will negatively effect one or the other if not both.

 
SteveC702 said:
Juxtatarot said:
tri-man 47 said:
(Juxt is a very fast stepper, though ..)
Wow! You noticed something like this?

After a discussion here about cadence last winter, I counted several times during treadmill runs. I was at about 180 at a medium pace, a little lower during slower paces and a little higher when running fast. I'm not sure if my cadence is different running on streets. I'm curious what some others here are at.

I'm a midfoot striker. Playing around, I have tried out a heel strike on runs for kicks. I don't know how most people do that. It seems so awkward (to me) and inefficient.
There were multiple pictures of myself I found where I am pretty much airborne, and pretty high off the ground too.
Is this bad? :oldunsure:

Just looking at my latest race pics and yeah, I look like I'm about to take flight in a few pics. :doh:

 
Keep on doing what works for you, I guess. I can't see doing lunges and all that when my legs are screaming uncle. The purpose of recovery isn't to fatigue anything. Just do enough to get the blood flowin'. Nothing more to it than that.

I do 1-2 recovery runs/week.
You're not going to convince him any differently, Ned. You're looking at it the right way.
I don't think training for shorter races is the same as training for distance races. What I've done in the past isn't the right solution, but I doubt your guys' training regimen's are the answer either - given my goals anyway. I didn't do everything right last year, but before my body broke down I was already noticing how much slower I was on the races I was training for. I think the answer is somewhere in the middle and I'm trying to figure out where. I'm still experimenting to figure out the optimum solution. I think I'm on to something, but really won't know until I start racing again in a few weeks.

My long days (6-8 miles) are slower days (7:30-8), as are my 'recovery' days like today - I don't have an exact pace because I'm starting and stopping throughout, but it's > 7 mins for 4-5 miles. I am noticeably faster on my training 5K's, trail runs, and tempo runs than last year. Will it continue? We'll see what happens over the next few weeks.

 
SteveC702 said:
Juxtatarot said:
tri-man 47 said:
(Juxt is a very fast stepper, though ..)
Wow! You noticed something like this?

After a discussion here about cadence last winter, I counted several times during treadmill runs. I was at about 180 at a medium pace, a little lower during slower paces and a little higher when running fast. I'm not sure if my cadence is different running on streets. I'm curious what some others here are at.

I'm a midfoot striker. Playing around, I have tried out a heel strike on runs for kicks. I don't know how most people do that. It seems so awkward (to me) and inefficient.
There were multiple pictures of myself I found where I am pretty much airborne, and pretty high off the ground too.
Is this bad? :oldunsure:

Just looking at my latest race pics and yeah, I look like I'm about to take flight in a few pics. :doh:
Conversely, I always seem to look like I'm walking in race pictures.

 
Is it best to work in lunges and other leg exercises on days you run or days you don't run?
I think it really depends on the rest of your training and your current conditioning. If you run 3-4 days/week you'll probably get the most benefit from strength training on off days. Since I usually run 5-6 days/week there really isn't much of an opportunity to leg strengthening exercises on non running days, so I do them (and other strength training) on my lighter running days. The weeks that I only run 5 times it's usually because the 6th day was a heavy yard work day, so I'll do some strength training when I'm done those days too. What specifically depends on what I'm doing in the yard, whatever it is it is usually most stressful on my back so I usually just focus on legs and abs but if my back is feeling unsually fine afterwards I'll do some push up's, dips, etc. too.

Regardless of your regimen, I don't think it's a good idea to do lunges on hard running days because you will negatively effect one or the other if not both.
I'm in favor of doing lunges on days when your goal is to strengthen your legs. So maybe along with hills or in place of hills if you're in a flat part of the country. I know I'll be working more lunges into my run days and brick sessions as the major issue I had was dead-legs.

 
Salomon Running TV Season 3 has started. If you haven't watched these in the past, make sure you have a few hours before you click on the link - these things are awesome.

Why We Run with Bernd Heinrich is the first one for this year. I have read his book twice, and after watching this I think I'm going to dig it out again.....

 
Next-to-last Cross Country update of the season. Both the Varsity and JV crushed a doormat team; JV took 12 of the top 13, including 1 through 7. Varsity took 7 of the top 8 spots.

Son wasn't real happy with his time, a 19:23 (he ran a 19:00 at the last away meet), though he thinks maybe the course was a little long based on times across the board. The good news is he finished 2nd on his team again, but closed to within 7 seconds of the #1 guy, while finishing about 20 seconds ahead of the #3 guy behind him. Those are improvements by about 15 seconds in each direction from the last race, which makes me think maybe he's not just whining about the course.

I'm a lousy 5k runner, so please give me a little training advice to share with The Boy heading into next Wednesday's championship. Here's the upcoming practice schedule:

W: Lighter, post-race practice

T: Intense practice at site of championship

F: No practice (watching varsity football game vs. rival school)

S: Sounds like speedwork; they're going to do a timed mile to see how much they've improved since the start of the year, and then some other stuff

S: ?

M: Practice (don't know what's on the schedule)

T: No Practice

W: Championship

He wants to know what he should run on Sunday. He likes longer runs, but I don't want to tire him out 3 days before the Championship. I was thinking about telling him to do 6 miles at LSD pace. Any thoughts if that makes sense, or if there's something better he can do?

Also, he's had his worst races at big invitational meets and isn't real confident about the Championship, where there will be 70 runners (10 teams of 7). He's at his best when he takes things a little slower for the first mile or so, and then picks up his pace and holds it for the third mile as other people get tired. Any tips on making sure he doesn't Sand the start? He has aspirations for a Top 10 finish, and I know it's going to be hard for him to hold back during that first mile as 40 or 50 people go out ahead of him.

 
Next-to-last Cross Country update of the season. Both the Varsity and JV crushed a doormat team; JV took 12 of the top 13, including 1 through 7. Varsity took 7 of the top 8 spots.

Son wasn't real happy with his time, a 19:23 (he ran a 19:00 at the last away meet), though he thinks maybe the course was a little long based on times across the board. The good news is he finished 2nd on his team again, but closed to within 7 seconds of the #1 guy, while finishing about 20 seconds ahead of the #3 guy behind him. Those are improvements by about 15 seconds in each direction from the last race, which makes me think maybe he's not just whining about the course.

I'm a lousy 5k runner, so please give me a little training advice to share with The Boy heading into next Wednesday's championship. Here's the upcoming practice schedule:

W: Lighter, post-race practice

T: Intense practice at site of championship

F: No practice (watching varsity football game vs. rival school)

S: Sounds like speedwork; they're going to do a timed mile to see how much they've improved since the start of the year, and then some other stuff

S: ?

M: Practice (don't know what's on the schedule)

T: No Practice

W: Championship

He wants to know what he should run on Sunday. He likes longer runs, but I don't want to tire him out 3 days before the Championship. I was thinking about telling him to do 6 miles at LSD pace. Any thoughts if that makes sense, or if there's something better he can do?

Also, he's had his worst races at big invitational meets and isn't real confident about the Championship, where there will be 70 runners (10 teams of 7). He's at his best when he takes things a little slower for the first mile or so, and then picks up his pace and holds it for the third mile as other people get tired. Any tips on making sure he doesn't Sand the start? He has aspirations for a Top 10 finish, and I know it's going to be hard for him to hold back during that first mile as 40 or 50 people go out ahead of him.
Having watched a couple of years of my son practice, I'd say he should do nothing on Sunday. What I've observed, is that my son's team takes a bye homecoming weekend, which is 2-weeks before districts and three before regionals. They pounded out the miles for the varsity 7 and a few others the week of homecoming through the next week. They had dead legs for their 3rd from last meet, but lower mileage the week before districts and regionals and it was a PR fest. I remember, I think, BNB posting something a long while back about shorter tapers for longer distances and longer tapers for shorter distances. This seems to be what they were doing.

 
I am definitely a toe striker and am often airborne in pictures. I've never measured my cadence.

On the recovery run debate, I am somewhere in between the MAC and Ned/Grue philosophies. My recovery runs these days tend to be in the 7:40-7:50 range. I have no problem starting these runs in the 8:10-8:30 range but inevitably comfortable becomes faster. I was never Elite by any means but when I was younger I guess I was what is now termed Sub-Elite and back then recovery runs were anywhere from 6:50-7:20 or so. I never saw an 8 as first digit for any mile back then. But I was also running the equivalent of sub or low 15 minute 5ks. Now that I am in the 17-18 minute range, recovery runs have slowed quite a bit.

So I don't think anyone in the 17-20 minute range should really be doing 7 minute mile recovery runs, but they don't have to be doing 8:30-9 for it to be recovery. Recovery to me equals pretty easily comfortable. I find it hard to think (no offense to anyone) that if you are only running 18:xx 5ks that 7 min pace is easily comfortable. On the other hand, it doesn't have to be 9 min pace to be comfortable. I am not an advocate of slowing your pace to the point that you may change stride.

 
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(Juxt is a very fast stepper, though ..)
Wow! You noticed something like this?

After a discussion here about cadence last winter, I counted several times during treadmill runs. I was at about 180 at a medium pace, a little lower during slower paces and a little higher when running fast. I'm not sure if my cadence is different running on streets. I'm curious what some others here are at.

I'm a midfoot striker. Playing around, I have tried out a heel strike on runs for kicks. I don't know how most people do that. It seems so awkward (to me) and inefficient.
There were multiple pictures of myself I found where I am pretty much airborne, and pretty high off the ground too.
Is this bad? :oldunsure:

Just looking at my latest race pics and yeah, I look like I'm about to take flight in a few pics. :doh:
Conversely, I always seem to look like I'm walking in race pictures.
http://www.marathon-photos.com/scripts/photo.py?template=MPX2&event=Sports/CPUK/2013/Army%20Ten%20Miler&photo=ATMU0922&bib=1910

We have lift off!

 
Just for reference sake, my recover run today was as follows

5 miles

55 minutes

15 sets of the below, alternating throughout

10 push up's + 20 lunges + 10 sec leg lift

10 dips + 10 bicycle crunches + 5 hip swings w/each leg + 20 walking calf raises

Each of those sets takes 45 secs-one minute and sets 1 and 15 were before my run and at the finish, so my pace was probably about 8:30 or so. I do the sets more frequently towards the beginning of the run as I am fresher and want to run faster, but the length of time between sets increases as I go because my body is fatigued so I don't want to run fast. The strength training is the control mechanism in the workout ensuring I run the recovery run at the appropriate pace. My body's comfortable pace while mixing in strength training is slower than if I were just running.

Afterwards, my legs feel great, but I also feel stronger as I got a good workout in too. To be cliche, there's many different ways to skin a cat, what works for you might not work for me and what works for each of us may not work for someone else. In the end, do whatever works.

 
Next-to-last Cross Country update of the season. Both the Varsity and JV crushed a doormat team; JV took 12 of the top 13, including 1 through 7. Varsity took 7 of the top 8 spots.

Son wasn't real happy with his time, a 19:23 (he ran a 19:00 at the last away meet), though he thinks maybe the course was a little long based on times across the board. The good news is he finished 2nd on his team again, but closed to within 7 seconds of the #1 guy, while finishing about 20 seconds ahead of the #3 guy behind him. Those are improvements by about 15 seconds in each direction from the last race, which makes me think maybe he's not just whining about the course.

I'm a lousy 5k runner, so please give me a little training advice to share with The Boy heading into next Wednesday's championship. Here's the upcoming practice schedule:

W: Lighter, post-race practice

T: Intense practice at site of championship

F: No practice (watching varsity football game vs. rival school)

S: Sounds like speedwork; they're going to do a timed mile to see how much they've improved since the start of the year, and then some other stuff

S: ?

M: Practice (don't know what's on the schedule)

T: No Practice

W: Championship

He wants to know what he should run on Sunday. He likes longer runs, but I don't want to tire him out 3 days before the Championship. I was thinking about telling him to do 6 miles at LSD pace. Any thoughts if that makes sense, or if there's something better he can do?

Also, he's had his worst races at big invitational meets and isn't real confident about the Championship, where there will be 70 runners (10 teams of 7). He's at his best when he takes things a little slower for the first mile or so, and then picks up his pace and holds it for the third mile as other people get tired. Any tips on making sure he doesn't Sand the start? He has aspirations for a Top 10 finish, and I know it's going to be hard for him to hold back during that first mile as 40 or 50 people go out ahead of him.
Having watched a couple of years of my son practice, I'd say he should do nothing on Sunday. What I've observed, is that my son's team takes a bye homecoming weekend, which is 2-weeks before districts and three before regionals. They pounded out the miles for the varsity 7 and a few others the week of homecoming through the next week. They had dead legs for their 3rd from last meet, but lower mileage the week before districts and regionals and it was a PR fest. I remember, I think, BNB posting something a long while back about shorter tapers for longer distances and longer tapers for shorter distances. This seems to be what they were doing.
Yup, it's kind of counter-intuitive, but the explanation at the time by Friel and the data he presented made sense.

 
I am definitely a toe striker and am often airborne in pictures. I've never measured my cadence.

On the recovery run debate, I am somewhere in between the MAC and Ned/Grue philosophies. My recovery runs these days tend to be in the 7:40-7:50 range. I have no problem starting these runs in the 8:10-8:30 range but inevitably comfortable becomes faster. I was never Elite by any means but when I was younger I guess I was what is now termed Sub-Elite and back then recovery runs were anywhere from 6:50-7:20 or so. I never saw an 8 as first digit for any mile back then. But I was also running the equivalent of sub or low 15 minute 5ks. Now that I am in the 17-18 minute range, recovery runs have slowed quite a bit.

So I don't think anyone in the 17-20 minute range should really be doing 7 minute mile recovery runs, but they don't have to be doing 8:30-9 for it to be recovery. Recovery to me equals pretty easily comfortable. I find it hard to think (no offense to anyone) that if you are only running 18:xx 5ks that 7 min pace is easily comfortable. On the other hand, it doesn't have to be 9 min pace to be comfortable. I am not an advocate of slowing your pace to the point that you may change stride.
I've had this debate with people for years, and it pretty much comes down to what works you, but you have to be honest with yourself when you look back and evaluate your own training to see if you are running too fast on your easy days.

The few factors I have seen that drives how fast people run on their easy days relative to their race pace are:

1. Age - Going to use Koby's experience and my experience here. Between my senior year of high school and my college years I never finished a run where I averaged 7:00 pace or slower. Now I rarely average 7:00 pace or faster on my easy days, and I am faster now in everything 5K or longer. (most days are in the 7:30-8:00 range).

2. Weekly mileage - When you run less miles your legs are just more fresh. When my physical therapist cleared me to start running again back in July I was out doing runs at 7-7:30/mi pace even though I was probably in 6:00/mi shape for 5K-8Ks. Now I am in significantly better shape but I only touch 7:00-7:30 pace towards the end of my easy runs on a good day because my weekly mileage is 3-4 times higher than those initial few weeks when I started back up again.

3. Where the person is in their training cycle - I've seen that during the "base phase" of most training plans when people are just doing easy runs and strides the easy runs tend to be a bit quicker than when you get into the more intense phase where you're doing 2-3 workouts a week and/or even racing. During the intense training phases it's even more important to take the easy days easy and the pace naturally slows down. Then when you start tapering for peak races, the mileage comes down and the extra rest brings that "pop" back into the legs and easy days quicken again. The last couple of week if where I have to watch out on my easy days or I'll start running marathon pace without realizing it.

 
My God you are skinny, Jux. Have any of us ever told you that? :lol: I look like a moose in my pics compared to you. Speaking of size, when I went in for my Hip MRI they had me at 5.10.5" I had always gone by 5'11 because I rounded up from my college measurement of 5'10 7/8. So I am either shrinking already or they messed up in college. Don't think you can round a half inch up. So coupling the shorter height with my 172 weigh in, the nurse informed me that my BMI was 24 and 25 was considered overweight. :mellow:

 
(Juxt is a very fast stepper, though ..)
Wow! You noticed something like this?

After a discussion here about cadence last winter, I counted several times during treadmill runs. I was at about 180 at a medium pace, a little lower during slower paces and a little higher when running fast. I'm not sure if my cadence is different running on streets. I'm curious what some others here are at.

I'm a midfoot striker. Playing around, I have tried out a heel strike on runs for kicks. I don't know how most people do that. It seems so awkward (to me) and inefficient.
There were multiple pictures of myself I found where I am pretty much airborne, and pretty high off the ground too.
Is this bad? :oldunsure:

Just looking at my latest race pics and yeah, I look like I'm about to take flight in a few pics. :doh:
Conversely, I always seem to look like I'm walking in race pictures.
http://www.marathon-photos.com/scripts/photo.py?template=MPX2&event=Sports/CPUK/2013/Army%20Ten%20Miler&photo=ATMU0922&bib=1910

We have lift off!
This is as close as I ever get to having both feet off the ground. Of course I'm 49.99 miles into things at this point....

 
(Juxt is a very fast stepper, though ..)
Wow! You noticed something like this?

After a discussion here about cadence last winter, I counted several times during treadmill runs. I was at about 180 at a medium pace, a little lower during slower paces and a little higher when running fast. I'm not sure if my cadence is different running on streets. I'm curious what some others here are at.

I'm a midfoot striker. Playing around, I have tried out a heel strike on runs for kicks. I don't know how most people do that. It seems so awkward (to me) and inefficient.
There were multiple pictures of myself I found where I am pretty much airborne, and pretty high off the ground too.
Is this bad? :oldunsure:

Just looking at my latest race pics and yeah, I look like I'm about to take flight in a few pics. :doh:
Conversely, I always seem to look like I'm walking in race pictures.
http://www.marathon-photos.com/scripts/photo.py?template=MPX2&event=Sports/CPUK/2013/Army%20Ten%20Miler&photo=ATMU0922&bib=1910

We have lift off!
This is as close as I ever get to having both feet off the ground. Of course I'm 49.99 miles into things at this point....
Well, all things considered you had some hops! :thumbup:

Here's my race Saturday...looks like I'm a good 6" off the ground in one pic. http://www.marathonfoto.com/10K/Anthem-Wicked-10K-2013/offering/myMarathonfotos/RaceOID/40002013F2/Language/en

 
Sand & other open water swimmers, have you seen Open Water Pedia? Here is a list of their top 100 OWS: http://openwaterpedia.com/index.php?title=America%27s_Top_100_Open_Water_Swims My 5K from this year made the list and, Sand, I thought I saw your bridge swim too. I'd like to do a few more of these in 2014 and their events page has a huge list of events that most triathlon event listing sites do not even pick up on.
Awesome. The Pensacola one didn't make the list, but I have done Lucky's Lake swim (a must if you ever go to Orlando). I really would love to do #4 (Chesapeake Bay) on the list, but it is a lottery to get in and the chances are small.

 
Sand - You should have done this event. http://rev3tri.com/anderson/results-5/2013-results/

You would have qualified for worlds.
Love that area! Of course I went to Clemson so I'm biased, but it is still awesome (lots of cyclists go there to train). I still think you're nuts thinking I can qualify for worlds - I just don't run fast enough.


Had an amazing 11mi MLR this morning. One of those runs where you just get stronger as it goes on. Pacing was sooooooo consistent it was scary. 8:58, 8:36, 8:39, 8:39, 8:37, 8:37, 8:34, 8:32, 8:35, 8:33, 8:27. Avg 8:37/140. Single fastest MLR I've ever had, let alone at this low of a HR.

This month has been too good to be true...
I think you may need to reset your expectations. You are on a whole new level these days.

 
Sand - You should have done this event. http://rev3tri.com/anderson/results-5/2013-results/

You would have qualified for worlds.
Love that area! Of course I went to Clemson so I'm biased, but it is still awesome (lots of cyclists go there to train). I still think you're nuts thinking I can qualify for worlds - I just don't run fast enough.


Had an amazing 11mi MLR this morning. One of those runs where you just get stronger as it goes on. Pacing was sooooooo consistent it was scary. 8:58, 8:36, 8:39, 8:39, 8:37, 8:37, 8:34, 8:32, 8:35, 8:33, 8:27. Avg 8:37/140. Single fastest MLR I've ever had, let alone at this low of a HR.

This month has been too good to be true...
I think you may need to reset your expectations. You are on a whole new level these days.
I forget your age group?

eta - Ditto your ned comment. His problem is that he's too late in the training cycle to accurately do that.

 
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My God you are skinny, Jux. Have any of us ever told you that? :lol:
Nah, I'm about a 19.5 BMI so I'm the "normal" one!
That's on the low side of healthy. But probably "runner normal"

I always find it funny that I'm generally overweight. I'm not exactly a big dude, 31" waist, 16.5" neck, 25 BMI. It's not like I'm barrel chested, but my head is the largest of anyone I know. I'm sure that adds 10 lbs.

ETA: I participated in a research study a couple of years ago, my fat % was below 6%. I've been told this is too skinny for endurance.

 
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My God you are skinny, Jux. Have any of us ever told you that? :lol: I look like a moose in my pics compared to you. Speaking of size, when I went in for my Hip MRI they had me at 5.10.5" I had always gone by 5'11 because I rounded up from my college measurement of 5'10 7/8. So I am either shrinking already or they messed up in college. Don't think you can round a half inch up. So coupling the shorter height with my 172 weigh in, the nurse informed me that my BMI was 24 and 25 was considered overweight. :mellow:
I was recently confronted with this as well. Had some physical here at work where they did height. Since my HS days I had always gone by 5'11". I was measured at 5'10" for the physical. Granted I'm a bit older than most in this thread but it sorta pissed me off.

 
Sand - You should have done this event. http://rev3tri.com/anderson/results-5/2013-results/

You would have qualified for worlds.
Love that area! Of course I went to Clemson so I'm biased, but it is still awesome (lots of cyclists go there to train). I still think you're nuts thinking I can qualify for worlds - I just don't run fast enough.


Had an amazing 11mi MLR this morning. One of those runs where you just get stronger as it goes on. Pacing was sooooooo consistent it was scary. 8:58, 8:36, 8:39, 8:39, 8:37, 8:37, 8:34, 8:32, 8:35, 8:33, 8:27. Avg 8:37/140. Single fastest MLR I've ever had, let alone at this low of a HR.

This month has been too good to be true...
I think you may need to reset your expectations. You are on a whole new level these days.
I forget your age group?
Just look all the way down at the "Ancient" category. (40-44)

 
Lunges are a totally different stress on the legs than running, hip swings too, build leg strength to offset the running wear and tear. That said, I usually follow this workout with a day of rest because my muscles still need to properly recover before the next training segment. Idea is to be back to normal Friday, in this case, then make more progress the next 7-10 days than I did the last 7-10 days.
Lunges are acceptable 24/7 in this thread.

 
Sand - You should have done this event. http://rev3tri.com/anderson/results-5/2013-results/

You would have qualified for worlds.
Love that area! Of course I went to Clemson so I'm biased, but it is still awesome (lots of cyclists go there to train). I still think you're nuts thinking I can qualify for worlds - I just don't run fast enough.


Had an amazing 11mi MLR this morning. One of those runs where you just get stronger as it goes on. Pacing was sooooooo consistent it was scary. 8:58, 8:36, 8:39, 8:39, 8:37, 8:37, 8:34, 8:32, 8:35, 8:33, 8:27. Avg 8:37/140. Single fastest MLR I've ever had, let alone at this low of a HR.

This month has been too good to be true...
I think you may need to reset your expectations. You are on a whole new level these days.
I forget your age group?
Just look all the way down at the "Ancient" category. (40-44)
That's what I thought and just did...

20th place and last sure qualfier

Swim - 36:49. How much do your crush this by?

Bike - 2:46 (20.3 mph). You're a mph better or about 8 min.

Run - 1:51 (8:28 pace)

 
Sand - You should have done this event. http://rev3tri.com/anderson/results-5/2013-results/

You would have qualified for worlds.
Love that area! Of course I went to Clemson so I'm biased, but it is still awesome (lots of cyclists go there to train). I still think you're nuts thinking I can qualify for worlds - I just don't run fast enough.


Had an amazing 11mi MLR this morning. One of those runs where you just get stronger as it goes on. Pacing was sooooooo consistent it was scary. 8:58, 8:36, 8:39, 8:39, 8:37, 8:37, 8:34, 8:32, 8:35, 8:33, 8:27. Avg 8:37/140. Single fastest MLR I've ever had, let alone at this low of a HR.

This month has been too good to be true...
I think you may need to reset your expectations. You are on a whole new level these days.
I forget your age group?
Just look all the way down at the "Ancient" category. (40-44)
That's what I thought and just did...

20th place and last sure qualfier

Swim - 36:49. How much do your crush this by?

Bike - 2:46 (20.3 mph). You're a mph better or about 8 min.

Run - 1:51 (8:28 pace)
Unknown. I'm probably a bit sub-30 on the swim. Bike is all about the terrain, so no telling. Run is maybe something I could pull off at the end of a HIM (never done one, so don't know).

I'd have a fighting chance.

 
Sand said:
BassNBrew said:
Sand said:
Sand - You should have done this event. http://rev3tri.com/anderson/results-5/2013-results/

You would have qualified for worlds.
Love that area! Of course I went to Clemson so I'm biased, but it is still awesome (lots of cyclists go there to train). I still think you're nuts thinking I can qualify for worlds - I just don't run fast enough.


Had an amazing 11mi MLR this morning. One of those runs where you just get stronger as it goes on. Pacing was sooooooo consistent it was scary. 8:58, 8:36, 8:39, 8:39, 8:37, 8:37, 8:34, 8:32, 8:35, 8:33, 8:27. Avg 8:37/140. Single fastest MLR I've ever had, let alone at this low of a HR.

This month has been too good to be true...
I think you may need to reset your expectations. You are on a whole new level these days.
I forget your age group?
Just look all the way down at the "Ancient" category. (40-44)
That's what I thought and just did...

20th place and last sure qualfier

Swim - 36:49. How much do your crush this by?

Bike - 2:46 (20.3 mph). You're a mph better or about 8 min.

Run - 1:51 (8:28 pace)
Unknown. I'm probably a bit sub-30 on the swim. Bike is all about the terrain, so no telling. Run is maybe something I could pull off at the end of a HIM (never done one, so don't know).

I'd have a fighting chance.
1300 ft over the course. Basically what you do in 13 miles.

 
Sand said:
Sand - You should have done this event. http://rev3tri.com/anderson/results-5/2013-results/

You would have qualified for worlds.
Love that area! Of course I went to Clemson so I'm biased, but it is still awesome (lots of cyclists go there to train). I still think you're nuts thinking I can qualify for worlds - I just don't run fast enough.


Had an amazing 11mi MLR this morning. One of those runs where you just get stronger as it goes on. Pacing was sooooooo consistent it was scary. 8:58, 8:36, 8:39, 8:39, 8:37, 8:37, 8:34, 8:32, 8:35, 8:33, 8:27. Avg 8:37/140. Single fastest MLR I've ever had, let alone at this low of a HR.

This month has been too good to be true...
I think you may need to reset your expectations. You are on a whole new level these days.
I forget your age group?
Just look all the way down at the "Ancient" category. (40-44)
LOL - I raced the half there a couple weeks ago. Tough course. Very hilly bike, pretty hilly 2-lap run. At least the swim was flat.

 
Sand said:
BassNBrew said:
Sand said:
Sand - You should have done this event. http://rev3tri.com/anderson/results-5/2013-results/

You would have qualified for worlds.
Love that area! Of course I went to Clemson so I'm biased, but it is still awesome (lots of cyclists go there to train). I still think you're nuts thinking I can qualify for worlds - I just don't run fast enough.


Had an amazing 11mi MLR this morning. One of those runs where you just get stronger as it goes on. Pacing was sooooooo consistent it was scary. 8:58, 8:36, 8:39, 8:39, 8:37, 8:37, 8:34, 8:32, 8:35, 8:33, 8:27. Avg 8:37/140. Single fastest MLR I've ever had, let alone at this low of a HR.

This month has been too good to be true...
I think you may need to reset your expectations. You are on a whole new level these days.
I forget your age group?
Just look all the way down at the "Ancient" category. (40-44)
That's what I thought and just did...

20th place and last sure qualfier

Swim - 36:49. How much do your crush this by?

Bike - 2:46 (20.3 mph). You're a mph better or about 8 min.

Run - 1:51 (8:28 pace)
Unknown. I'm probably a bit sub-30 on the swim. Bike is all about the terrain, so no telling. Run is maybe something I could pull off at the end of a HIM (never done one, so don't know).

I'd have a fighting chance.
1300 ft over the course. Basically what you do in 13 miles.
1300 ft posted in the course description. 3500 ft by most people's Garmins. Very hilly, IMO (and I'm from Atlanta).

 

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