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Richard Dawkins -- Showing his true colors with his tweets (1 Viewer)
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randall146
Footballguy
That's not a far-fetched position is it? Not everyone feels that way but that's part of the reason they do the testing 
Apple Jack
Footballguy
Does he still host Family Feud?
General Malaise
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
My wife and I discussed this at length prior to the birth of our first child. If we had learned beforehand that the child had down syndrome, my wife would have likely had an abortion.
Sorry if you think that's immoral, shader. I regard it as a private, personal choice. Unlike Dawkins, I would never encourage others to take this step. But I think everyone should have the right to.
Sorry if you think that's immoral, shader. I regard it as a private, personal choice. Unlike Dawkins, I would never encourage others to take this step. But I think everyone should have the right to.
butcher boy
Footballguy
I dont think there's anything immoral about abortion in general and I find that to be a very insensitive statement.
Joe Summer
Footballguy
Well. This clearly proves that all of his other beliefs must be wrong too.
shader
Footballguy
I didn't say it was immoral. (although you know from previous threads that I do feel that way). Dawkins said it's immoral NOT to have an abortion if the baby had down syndrome.
Tom Skerritt
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
Yeah, I disagree with that POV, but I'm not offended by it and I don't see how it shows his true colors. Dawkins is an atheist who holds that all morality should stem from reason. I agree with that position. Are you suggesting that abortion is a case in which our morality should stem from God's instruction which defies reason?
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
Arsenal of Doom
Footballguy
He should read some Andrew Solomon
17seconds
root of all aliai
"Abort it and try again" isn't that far-fetched, I get that. Saying it's immoral to have the kid? Don't get that part.That's not a far-fetched position is it? Not everyone feels that way but that's part of the reason they do the testing
Every person we know raising a downs syndrome kid is committing an immoral act?
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butcher boy
Footballguy
The morality or immorality argument to me is beside the point here. Saying "Abort it and try again" basically sounds like the sum of every person with down's syndrome's life equates to something that should be aborted. I think its pretty insulting to the many individuals who suffer from it who do lead relatively happy and functioning lives.
McGarnicle
Footballguy
All-time great safety and first ballot HoFer IMO.
randall146
Footballguy
Interesting - I never would have read it that way but I can see someone reading that into it."Abort it and try again" isn't that far-fetched, I get that. Saying it's immoral to have the kid? Don't get that part.That's not a far-fetched position is it? Not everyone feels that way but that's part of the reason they do the testing
Every person we know raising a downs syndrome kid is committing an immoral act?
But that's not at all what he's saying - I'm sure he'd be very complimentary of people raising downs syndrome or any special needs kid. His argument is that it's immoral to bring someone who will struggle so much into the world if you have the choice not to.
Certainly people will argue whether that's moral or not, but he's not casting aspersions on people with down's syndrome or their caretakers
timschochet
Footballguy
Are you sure it's not that guy who owns the creek from the 90s show? The one who was always getting it on with Tom Cruise's wife? (Except I think that in real life he and that other dude, Paisley or whatever, we're into each other).
shader
Footballguy
There's only one way to read it.Interesting - I never would have read it that way but I can see someone reading that into it.But that's not at all what he's saying - I'm sure he'd be very complimentary of people raising downs syndrome or any special needs kid. His argument is that it's immoral to bring someone who will struggle so much into the world if you have the choice not to."Abort it and try again" isn't that far-fetched, I get that. Saying it's immoral to have the kid? Don't get that part.That's not a far-fetched position is it? Not everyone feels that way but that's part of the reason they do the testing
Every person we know raising a downs syndrome kid is committing an immoral act?
Certainly people will argue whether that's moral or not, but he's not casting aspersions on people with down's syndrome or their caretakers
jdoggydogg
Footballguy
Just to put this in perspective, something like 90% of prenatally diagnosed down syndrome babies are aborted. So this outcry doesn't really reflect reality.
randall146
Footballguy
Then how are you quoting two people reading it two different ways?There's only one way to read it.Interesting - I never would have read it that way but I can see someone reading that into it.But that's not at all what he's saying - I'm sure he'd be very complimentary of people raising downs syndrome or any special needs kid. His argument is that it's immoral to bring someone who will struggle so much into the world if you have the choice not to."Abort it and try again" isn't that far-fetched, I get that. Saying it's immoral to have the kid? Don't get that part.That's not a far-fetched position is it? Not everyone feels that way but that's part of the reason they do the testing
Every person we know raising a downs syndrome kid is committing an immoral act?
Certainly people will argue whether that's moral or not, but he's not casting aspersions on people with down's syndrome or their caretakers
McGarnicle
Footballguy
Damn, you're right.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
If you were to ask somebody with Down's syndrome whether they would prefer the life they were given or would prefer never to have been born at all, what sort of response do you think you would get? You don't have to appeal to religion at all to establish why Dawkin's position is morally abhorrent. All you need is revealed preferences. That same argument applies to eugenics in general.
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msommer
Footballguy
randall146
Footballguy
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
randall146
Footballguy
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Dawkins is arguing that it's better that people with Down's syndrome never be born. And he's saying that with complete disregard for the preferences of people with Down's syndrome.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Okay, I admit I'm a little bit of an ####### and saw the humor in that. But my wife has spent the past couple of years helping people with cognitive problems, including high-functioning Down's folks, find employment in our community. A lot of these are really good people.
msommer
Footballguy
Dawkins is saying what 90% of people who get that diagnose on their unborn child is doing (citing jdog above)
Apart from that it's my understanding that most people who object to abortion do so on religious grounds...
Mr Non Sequitur
Footballguy
Would you all sign up for a program where you could be 100% sure of eye color, hair color, maybe a design a baby type thing?
matuski
Footballguy
Pretty large jump from choosing against the burden of down syndrome all the way to engineering a child.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
If you were to ask somebody with Down's syndrome whether they would prefer the life they were given or would prefer not to have Down's syndrome, what sort of response do you think you would get?
randall146
Footballguy
I think some of you are so focused on being offended that you're not willing to consider the big picture if what he's saying.
Obviously Down's syndrome kids would choose to have been born. Obviously Dawkins isn't calling for their execution.
His point is - if you had a choice between having a disabled child or a non-disabled child, choosing the non-disabled child would be the morally right thing to do - for the child
He's not saying anything at all about the worthiness to live of Down's syndrome sufferers
Obviously Down's syndrome kids would choose to have been born. Obviously Dawkins isn't calling for their execution.
His point is - if you had a choice between having a disabled child or a non-disabled child, choosing the non-disabled child would be the morally right thing to do - for the child
He's not saying anything at all about the worthiness to live of Down's syndrome sufferers
Mr Non Sequitur
Footballguy
Well that way you don't even have to worry about making that choice. Then we can start engineering humans so that everyone is an alpha male.
msommer
Footballguy
17seconds
root of all aliai
OK, now I get that he's not saying raising the kid is immoral. I'm still struggling why he thinks the choice to keep the kid is immoral. You can argue that it is better to abort the fetus and try again than to keep it. But immoral to keep it?Interesting - I never would have read it that way but I can see someone reading that into it."Abort it and try again" isn't that far-fetched, I get that. Saying it's immoral to have the kid? Don't get that part.That's not a far-fetched position is it? Not everyone feels that way but that's part of the reason they do the testing
Every person we know raising a downs syndrome kid is committing an immoral act?
But that's not at all what he's saying - I'm sure he'd be very complimentary of people raising downs syndrome or any special needs kid. His argument is that it's immoral to bring someone who will struggle so much into the world if you have the choice not to.
Certainly people will argue whether that's moral or not, but he's not casting aspersions on people with down's syndrome or their caretakers
dgreen
Footballguy
Just from the quote in the OP, I don't see how you get that. Are you using some other quotes?
And I don't see how what you're saying makes sense. X is conceived and it is determined he has down syndrome. What you decide to do with X is irrelevant to whether you chose to try and have another child who hopefully turns out to be non-disabled.
jdoggydogg
Footballguy
17seconds
root of all aliai
You have to believe they are separate individuals first. I don't think Dawkins believes that. They are 2 sets of undeveloped cells.
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jdoggydogg
Footballguy
