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Cleveland Browns (11 Viewers)
- Thread starter wadegarrett
- Start date
Bob Magaw
Footballguy
I added in an agreement with your point before seeing this latest post.
But it is unclear if they would disallow a contract structured as described. Don't think it would be illegal to heavily load the dollars into the 2015 league year. That would be good for Mack to effectively pay him more guaranteed money early in the contract. Whatever unwritten agreement he might have with JAX about hypothetical future restructurings wouldn't necessarily fall under the purview of the league office.
amnesiac
beer is good
most NFL players already have residency in Florida even if they don't play there. if he doesn't, then he's not as smart as he claims to be.
the weather is debatable. you couldn't pay me to put up with that humidity.
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amnesiac
beer is good
B-Deep
Footballguy
B-Deep
Footballguy
not getting him signed was dumb, the browns have the money
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
what does this mean? I'm sure they offered him plenty of money. If he doesn't want to play here they can't make him sign a deal.
B-Deep
Footballguy
for 1.6 mil more they could have made him play there, and if they had no intention of matching him they've been praising him like mad for no reason. Letting other teams negotiate to match is dumb. maybe this is all a smoke screen and they have wanted to watch him leave since they tagged him, it is a silly smokescreen though as it accomplishes nothing. I think they intend to match and to force him to play where he does not want, unless they cannot. I also think the contract is the reason he does not want to play there. The browns could not figure out a deal for him, the jags did.
they also could have franchised him and tried to trade him, as another option
clearly they were willing to pay him 10mil to play there this year if he wanted to or not
but not 11
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
If the 2014 salary is $10 mil or less (same as transition tag), why would the Browns not match this? Who cares what is going to happen in 2015 and beyond? Pay him what they were going to for this year and then get him to restructure, cut him, or trade him somewhere where he will agree to restructure.
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
if they franchise him, they force him to play where he does not want, no other team negotiates with him, and he almost definitely leaves next year.
with the transition they let him negotiate with other teams knowing they can match 99% of whatever Dumoff thinks he can come up with and wala he is signed long term, or if another team wants to way way overpay him and shoot themselves in the foot then let them.
PizzaDeliveryGuy
extra sausage
He is a center for crying out loud. Let Jax have him and work on extending Gordon, Cameron, and Haden while concentrating on the draft.
Bobcat10
Footballguy
We also don't know how big of a jackhole Banner was negotiating. This could be why when Mack returned from vacation the Browns (new) brass all went to Mack (I think in Cali) to apply the full court press and get a deal done. Mack may have already made his mind up and nothing was changing it.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Seems like a balloon payment in 2015 wouldnt be a big deal.
We would still have a lot of cap room next year, and for guys we need to re-sign we can still do that just without huge money in 2015.
I don't care if Mack wants to be here or not. He is a fantastic center. As long as he is playing well an dnot a giant D-bag for the lockerroom, I am perfectly fine with him not wanting to be here.
Many browns fans seem to take it so darn personally. I don't really care if he likes cleveland or not. i care if he helps us
We would still have a lot of cap room next year, and for guys we need to re-sign we can still do that just without huge money in 2015.
I don't care if Mack wants to be here or not. He is a fantastic center. As long as he is playing well an dnot a giant D-bag for the lockerroom, I am perfectly fine with him not wanting to be here.
Many browns fans seem to take it so darn personally. I don't really care if he likes cleveland or not. i care if he helps us
Soulfly3
Footballguy
Cool. See ya! You're a centre for ####s sakes... Sure, you're a damn good one, but not at that damned price, and not if he doesnt wanna be here.
Enjoy going to an even bigger loser of a team
ghostguy123
Footballguy
so....................do we know what the contract is yet?
Bobcat10
Footballguy
Hearing it will be signed Friday. Maybe tomorrow.
Jason La Canfora @JasonLaCanfora 2h
Alex Mack has agreed to the terms of an offer sheet with Jags. Actual offer sheet not yet drawn up but will be shortly and then submitted
daveR
Footballguy
I am hoping that it's all a negotiation tactic. If he truly doesn't want to play here, it isn't for W/L record or playoff potential that he chose Jax. Maybe the California kid can't handle the weather -- I dunno...
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Bobcat10
Footballguy
So I've seen two things:
#1 - 2015 is loaded up, as mentioned above.
#2 - Player opt out clause after 2014, with heavy 2014 salary.
Are either of these "better" for us to match? If we really want him to be our center, I don't see either of these as a major roadblock. My guess would be we are going to see something like option 2.
#1 - 2015 is loaded up, as mentioned above.
#2 - Player opt out clause after 2014, with heavy 2014 salary.
Are either of these "better" for us to match? If we really want him to be our center, I don't see either of these as a major roadblock. My guess would be we are going to see something like option 2.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
If he signs a deal with a large 2014 salary where he opts out before next year, I guess we can just keep him for one year. Sounds fine to me. Maybe a year from now he wants to stay, who really knows.
Unless the 2014 salary is like 18 million. But even still, I would prefer to keep him for that for one year. We arent using that cap space this year anyway.
Although maybe we SHOULD and lock up some guys NOW if we can
Unless the 2014 salary is like 18 million. But even still, I would prefer to keep him for that for one year. We arent using that cap space this year anyway.
Although maybe we SHOULD and lock up some guys NOW if we can
JaxBill
Footballguy
Cleveland has considerably more talent on their roster and a considerably longer and richer NFL history.
What the Jaguars have to offer Mack is:
- an organization that has a plan and so far is sticking to it. From the owner who hires football people and stays out of the football side to the GM and HC who work very well together.
- one of the best motivational speakers/ salesmen in Gus
- a young team that improved as the year went on and didn't pack it in when infamy was looking them in the face.
- no state or local income tax.
- an innovative OC that threw a pass to retiring C Brad Meester. But seriously, he would fit in well with the zone blocking scheme
- most importantly, they were willing to stroke a big check first
bengalbuck
Footballguy
Because he is going to get something like $20M guaranteed. So if you cut him after the first year, you paid him $20M for one season...
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
Thanks for doing the negotiating, Jags.
Bobcat10
Footballguy
Let's just sit back and see what the offer is. I've also heard 3/27 which makes zero sense barring the opt out clause after 1 season. The 5/?? is rumored to have the opt out clause after the 2nd season. The Bengals were going to match quickly on Hawk at one point as well.
wadegarrett
FFA Legend™
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
B-Deep
Footballguy
again
why is another team setting the contract levlel for your players a good thing?
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
The Jaguars have made some reaalllllly stupid moves at their front office level recently.
How about drafting a PUNTER in the third round two years ago?
Oh yeah, a QUARTERBACK was drafted a few picks later.
That QUARTERBACK just won his first Super Bowl a few months ago but the Jaguars drafted a PUNTER in the third round!
Then last year they drafted an OT in the first round. OK, not a bad move but nothing to get excited about especially since they already had a young and decent starting OLT in place with Eugene Monroe.
Before the draft everyone said if the Jags drafted an OLT they would be wasting their high first round pick but they defended the pick of taking an offensive left tackle by saying they would move Monroe to the right side and have 'stacked edges' at the offensive tackle positions for a long time.
Actually that made a lot of sense. They already had Monroe and then draffted Luke Joekel so they had two key pleces in place to form a DOMINATING offensive line but what happened?
They traded Monroe away for a bag of peanuts to BALTIMORE when reports said that the Cleveland Browns offered more, They only got Baltimore's 4th and 5th round draft picks this year. That is NOTHING for a young offensive tackle who can play both on the left and right sides especially when he's in his prime.
Monroe just signed a long-term deal with Baltimore of 5 years for $37.5 million.
If the Jags were serious about building a strong offensie line they would have kept Monroe to pair with Joekel. They aren't serious about winning. This move for Mack is window dressing to make their fans think they are serious about winning. That team is a joke. Now they have screwed our salary cap advantage that we had carefully built. Oh and the Jags now have pissed off the rest of the league because centers are going to start asking for Alex Mack money.
Really stupid move on top of a series of really stupid moves by Jacksonville.
I don't blame Mack at all for the stupidity of Jacksonville.
How about drafting a PUNTER in the third round two years ago?
Oh yeah, a QUARTERBACK was drafted a few picks later.
That QUARTERBACK just won his first Super Bowl a few months ago but the Jaguars drafted a PUNTER in the third round!
Then last year they drafted an OT in the first round. OK, not a bad move but nothing to get excited about especially since they already had a young and decent starting OLT in place with Eugene Monroe.
Before the draft everyone said if the Jags drafted an OLT they would be wasting their high first round pick but they defended the pick of taking an offensive left tackle by saying they would move Monroe to the right side and have 'stacked edges' at the offensive tackle positions for a long time.
Actually that made a lot of sense. They already had Monroe and then draffted Luke Joekel so they had two key pleces in place to form a DOMINATING offensive line but what happened?
They traded Monroe away for a bag of peanuts to BALTIMORE when reports said that the Cleveland Browns offered more, They only got Baltimore's 4th and 5th round draft picks this year. That is NOTHING for a young offensive tackle who can play both on the left and right sides especially when he's in his prime.
Monroe just signed a long-term deal with Baltimore of 5 years for $37.5 million.
If the Jags were serious about building a strong offensie line they would have kept Monroe to pair with Joekel. They aren't serious about winning. This move for Mack is window dressing to make their fans think they are serious about winning. That team is a joke. Now they have screwed our salary cap advantage that we had carefully built. Oh and the Jags now have pissed off the rest of the league because centers are going to start asking for Alex Mack money.
Really stupid move on top of a series of really stupid moves by Jacksonville.
I don't blame Mack at all for the stupidity of Jacksonville.
PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
If the Browns match, then it is the Browns who are screwing their salary cap advantage.
Can't imagine they care about that. Also, if the the Browns are willing to match then our F.O. must think centers are worth that as well.
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B-Deep
Footballguy
B-Deep
Footballguy
interesting...
Mike Garafolo @MikeGarafolo 3m
Folks missing point on Mack. It's not that he doesn't want to play in Cle. Rather, doesn't want to get locked in long term. Hence the void.
Mike Garafolo @MikeGarafolo 40s
No, meaning he would give new regime 2-yr probationary period. RT @ZachFootball247: Meaning he doesnt want to be there which is same thing
Mike Garafolo @MikeGarafolo 3m
Folks missing point on Mack. It's not that he doesn't want to play in Cle. Rather, doesn't want to get locked in long term. Hence the void.
Mike Garafolo @MikeGarafolo 40s
No, meaning he would give new regime 2-yr probationary period. RT @ZachFootball247: Meaning he doesnt want to be there which is same thing
Bobcat10
Footballguy
Before the numbers/specifics came out, it was being reported that the Bengals were going to match.
Bobcat10
Footballguy
There is really way too much speculating going on. Once people see the details of the official offer sheet we can take more certain stances.
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Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
If the Browns went out and had no competition for Mack and they gifted him a ridiculous contract without anyone competing and driving up his cost then you could blame the Browns, THIS IS ALL JACKSONVILLE. The Jags are the ones who are driving up the cost, its all their fault. They never should have attempted this move.
They should have acted reasonably and kept Monroe which would have been wiser on a number of fronts. Monroe was rated higher on all free agent lists for this off-season because offensive tackles in their prime are more valuable not to mention Monroe is younger and he is still a bargain because the money he is getting paid is IN-LINE with other young OTs in their prime.
Had they acted reasonably they would not have tons of extra cap money to screw with other teams.
So this is Jacksonville who is driving up the cost of Mack, not Cleveland.
Jacsonville doens't care about anything obviuosly. It will come back to bite them. It will.
Oh and to pay an extra $1.6 million more to franchise Mack?
Yeah sure. He is already guaranteed to earn over $3 million MORE than any center in the history of the NFL right now. So any team who went out and made an offer would be making a stupid move.
The Browns have the best OLT in the league and they had Alex Mack. Did having the best OLT and now the highest paid center in the league create wins? No but a team without a franchise QB and whose OLT isn't as good as Joe Thomas gives away their ORT for nothing and then makes a ridiculous offer for Mack.
Jacksonville. The dumbest team in the history of the NFL but they sure gotta nice punter eh?
No one can blame Alex Mack for the stupidity of Jacksonville.
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
happens all the time directly or indirectly (team signs player X which sets the market for player Y).
JaxBill
Footballguy
If the Jags never made an offer, would other centers be asking for Alex Mack money. Y'know because he could be making MORE under the transition tag because CLEVELAND couldn't / wouldn't do their own negotiating.
B-Deep
Footballguy
well then maybe the 10mil commitment was a dumb move
if it was a smart move, 11.6 for insurance was smarter
the browns have cap space, why play chicken over 1.6 mil?
either this guy is worth that or he is not.
B-Deep
Footballguy
there's a difference between setting the market and matching a contract..
if the browns are willing to match this the question is why couldn't they get it done themselves? If the answer is mack does not want to be there that badly, well then matching would be dumb and perhaps that says something in and of itself
it seems like they were unwilling or unable to decide what to do, so they compromised between Franchise and let go....
PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
I didn't say anything about Monroe. Trading him for peanuts seemed like a questionable move.
It was a different FO that drafted Angerer. Bringing that up is the same as someone bringing up Heckert drafting Weeden when they're bashing the Browns FO.
In the end though, if it was a stupid contract for the Jags to offer then it's a stupid contract for the Browns to match. It's either a stupid contract for a center or it isn't.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
You want to assign blame. That is what you do Plasma. You not only want to assign blame you always assign it to the Browns front office.
Here is your cookie. You can rip the Browns front office for the fact that they never should have had TWO GUYS coming up at the same time for renegotiations. Our front office did screw up bigtime.
Joe Banner and Mike Lombardi are the guys who had the best chance to extend Mack but they had a policy of assigning salary cap to positions instead of taking into account the individuals so they crunched the numbers and they came to the conclusion that both Mack and TJ. Ward would askew the cap numbers of the O-Line and DBs. Those two guys are to blame because they could have re-upped Mack last year but THEY crunched the numbers and didn't even open negotiations.
Farmer inherited a no-win situation with TJ and Alex. We lost TJ but got Whitner. We did not enter negotiations with TJ so apparently Whitner is a guy that fits Pettine's/O'Brien's system better because we didn't get a bargain on Donte's contract.
The front office, owner, coaches, flew out to California to kiss Mack'sass and tell him how much he was wanted by the team.
I'm sure they made a solid offer and rumors are they were offering more than any center in the history of the league. Mack didn't sign so he may not want to be with the Browns. OK, if he wanted to play with a winnning organization I couldn't blame him at all. He played up to his draft status. He played through a appendectimy surgery on the same day that Petyon Hillis didn't suit up due to a sore throat.
No Browns fan can attack Alex Mack if he wanted to play for a winning team but Farmer tagging him basically killed that from happening because no team who is competing for a SB could afford Mack.
Mack sniffing around Jacksonville makes the speculation that he doesn't want to play in Cleveland a reasonable speculation but it could be a hard negotiating tool and it worked. He actually got an offer and now we have to match.
No center is worth that contract but the Browns are actually ready to take a step forward and it 'seems' Haslam is sincere about winning not like the Jags who let Eugene Monroe go IN AUGUST of last year. Before the season even began they let him go for NOTHING. They had no idea if Jeokel could take over and the kid struggled last year but they were operating without a net.
But now if the Browns dont' match we have to burn a high pick on a center when instead we should have had Mack under contract last year under Banner/Lombardi and we could actually make progress.
Now we are going to get hurt.
Two years ago a stupid owner in Washington overpaid for RG III and now a stupid team is overpaying for our center.
So you want to blame who? Farmer for not giving up an extra $1.6 million? Banner/Lombardi for that assinine policy that kept them from re-upping Mack last year? Jacksonville for making another stupid move?
Go ahead and blame all three but Farmer is the guy who deserves the least blame by a large margin.
This move won't make Jacksonville a contender and not matter what happens I won't blame Alex Mack. He earned my respect long ago. He gave us all we could ask so if some stupid team offers him more, even if its a losing team, hell he had that without the insane contract. I don't blame Mack and won't say a thing against him.
Here is your cookie. You can rip the Browns front office for the fact that they never should have had TWO GUYS coming up at the same time for renegotiations. Our front office did screw up bigtime.
Joe Banner and Mike Lombardi are the guys who had the best chance to extend Mack but they had a policy of assigning salary cap to positions instead of taking into account the individuals so they crunched the numbers and they came to the conclusion that both Mack and TJ. Ward would askew the cap numbers of the O-Line and DBs. Those two guys are to blame because they could have re-upped Mack last year but THEY crunched the numbers and didn't even open negotiations.
Farmer inherited a no-win situation with TJ and Alex. We lost TJ but got Whitner. We did not enter negotiations with TJ so apparently Whitner is a guy that fits Pettine's/O'Brien's system better because we didn't get a bargain on Donte's contract.
The front office, owner, coaches, flew out to California to kiss Mack'sass and tell him how much he was wanted by the team.
I'm sure they made a solid offer and rumors are they were offering more than any center in the history of the league. Mack didn't sign so he may not want to be with the Browns. OK, if he wanted to play with a winnning organization I couldn't blame him at all. He played up to his draft status. He played through a appendectimy surgery on the same day that Petyon Hillis didn't suit up due to a sore throat.
No Browns fan can attack Alex Mack if he wanted to play for a winning team but Farmer tagging him basically killed that from happening because no team who is competing for a SB could afford Mack.
Mack sniffing around Jacksonville makes the speculation that he doesn't want to play in Cleveland a reasonable speculation but it could be a hard negotiating tool and it worked. He actually got an offer and now we have to match.
No center is worth that contract but the Browns are actually ready to take a step forward and it 'seems' Haslam is sincere about winning not like the Jags who let Eugene Monroe go IN AUGUST of last year. Before the season even began they let him go for NOTHING. They had no idea if Jeokel could take over and the kid struggled last year but they were operating without a net.
But now if the Browns dont' match we have to burn a high pick on a center when instead we should have had Mack under contract last year under Banner/Lombardi and we could actually make progress.
Now we are going to get hurt.
Two years ago a stupid owner in Washington overpaid for RG III and now a stupid team is overpaying for our center.
So you want to blame who? Farmer for not giving up an extra $1.6 million? Banner/Lombardi for that assinine policy that kept them from re-upping Mack last year? Jacksonville for making another stupid move?
Go ahead and blame all three but Farmer is the guy who deserves the least blame by a large margin.
This move won't make Jacksonville a contender and not matter what happens I won't blame Alex Mack. He earned my respect long ago. He gave us all we could ask so if some stupid team offers him more, even if its a losing team, hell he had that without the insane contract. I don't blame Mack and won't say a thing against him.
Bobcat10
Footballguy
Since we're having fun speculating...
Maybe the Browns made fair offers in their opinion and Mack wanted more so they said OK, here you go, see what you can pull in. They want to sign Mack long term. The franchise tag doesn't guarantee that happening and only can muddy up franchising in the future (we have more important assets coming up soon) if he doesn't end up signing long term.
Now let's say we have two years before the rumored opt out clause...and the Browns go .500 and then make the playoffs. He will have a different decision to make...and he will be in his 30's. Opting out at that point will leave whatever is left on the table with no guarantee of getting a better deal. The Browns might even like having that clause after year 2.
An opt out clause after year 1 won't deter the Browns at all, right?
Neither will a year 1 dollar front load, right? Jax has no advantage there. Front loading matters when the team that has to match is in cap trouble. What about loading up year 2? Simply based on knowing our space available now, and how the cap is said to be significantly rising the next few years, leads me to believe the Browns will be in fine cap space next season. They also have the ability to restructure at that point and spread it out if Mack sees good things this year.
I still think there will be something in this offer that will make the Browns pause. I haven't heard anything yet though that would based on my semi-limited knowledge of NFL contracts and cap planning.
Maybe the Browns made fair offers in their opinion and Mack wanted more so they said OK, here you go, see what you can pull in. They want to sign Mack long term. The franchise tag doesn't guarantee that happening and only can muddy up franchising in the future (we have more important assets coming up soon) if he doesn't end up signing long term.
Now let's say we have two years before the rumored opt out clause...and the Browns go .500 and then make the playoffs. He will have a different decision to make...and he will be in his 30's. Opting out at that point will leave whatever is left on the table with no guarantee of getting a better deal. The Browns might even like having that clause after year 2.
An opt out clause after year 1 won't deter the Browns at all, right?
Neither will a year 1 dollar front load, right? Jax has no advantage there. Front loading matters when the team that has to match is in cap trouble. What about loading up year 2? Simply based on knowing our space available now, and how the cap is said to be significantly rising the next few years, leads me to believe the Browns will be in fine cap space next season. They also have the ability to restructure at that point and spread it out if Mack sees good things this year.
I still think there will be something in this offer that will make the Browns pause. I haven't heard anything yet though that would based on my semi-limited knowledge of NFL contracts and cap planning.
Bobcat10
Footballguy
A perfectly fine scenario if we can adequately fill the need for a starting NFL center this offseason.
PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
I didn't assign any blame at all. I just pointed out that you can't have a double standard when it comes to Mack's contract.
Maybe centers have become more important than we've been led to believe in modern NFL football. If that's the case maybe it isn't a dumb contract for Jax or Cle. If that's not true and it is a ridiculous contract then it would be a dumb contract to match.
Soulfly3
Footballguy
Draft one. who gives a rats ###... That's ludicrous money for a center, and especially for one who has shown he doesnt want to be here.
Ciao. We aren't winning a super bowl this year anyways.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Double standard?
You mean you see no difference due to different people being in charge. You just see one morass?
Their were diffent people in charge, Joe Banner and Mike Lombardi had a clear cut policy where they never even opened up contract negotiations with Alex Mack.
When Farmer was put in charge he put re-signing Alex Mack as priority number one and the actions of having the, owner, head coach, offenisve coordinator, and new GM Rary Farmer, flying to Alex Mack's home to personally convey to him how important he was/is to the team is about as clear of a distinction between people making policies that you can find.
No owner flies out to try and get a center to resign, no one does that unless they are serious as a heart attack.
Double standard means a person or group of peopple hold two standards. If Joe Banner and Mike Lombardi pulled a two-face type of deal where they went from not negotiating to flying the, owner, front office, and coaches, out then you could cry double standard.
Once we got rid of Banner/Lombardi we not only made every reasonable effort to re-sign Mack we made a wise move to transition tag him because only a stupid team would make a stupid offer for Mack. I guess we should have not only made reasonable assumptions but we should have made extra-sprecial stupid assumptions because Jacksonville is in the NFL.
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
If you were offered say $25-$30 million at age 29 as opposed to $10 million for one year and no security net for a career ending achilles tear, if you just lost your only line coach and well like head coach, if you endured 3 regime changes in 14 months, what would you do?
