What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

Can you explain why you have faith in your religion? (1 Viewer)

Otis

Otis

Footballguy
A comment in another thread, which is a rehash of a comment we see in all the religion threads, was along the lines of "From my viewpoint, my belief in X is based on faith. It can't be proven or disproven."

Just curious as to whether there is a rational basis for folks deciding to put faith in a particular unprovable over another unprovable. I suspect that in 99% of cases, your decision to have faith in X is based solely on the fact that you grew up in a certain part of the world and had parents who decided to tell you to have faith in X. Does that bother you? Do you ever consider that, had you grown up in a different hemisphere, or been born to parents in a house up the road, you might well have a completely different blind faith (that could neither be proven nor disproven)?

Not trying to throw stones at the believers, just curious to get past the hocus pocus and right down to an honest intellectual discussion. The answer at the end of this may be "yeah, I recognize none of this is rational, but it makes me happy and gives me some good constructs around which I can build my life and my family's lives," and if so, that's cool by me. But if it's something more than that, curious to hear that too.

TIA

Mods please file under "religion threads"

 
Satan is always true to his word. Many of us are well aware of how our lives were straightened out after we made a commitment to Satan. He snaps us into line, guides us, and directs us to what we need to do to be focused and happy. When we dedicate our souls to him, we are always under his protection and he is always there for us. Satan has ALWAYS been there for me. There were times when I was having problems and Father Satan came to me before I even had to ask and helped me out.

It is very important to trust in Father Satan. He works with every one of us to establish trust. He is honest, truthful, and consistent and he keeps his word. He meets us more than half way.

 
Otis said:
I suspect that in 99% of cases, your decision to have faith in X is based solely on the fact that you grew up in a certain part of the world and had parents who decided to tell you to have faith in X.
Click to expand...
99%? Really??

I'm pretty sure humanity is a more reflective than that. It's not exactly a rare occurrence to either question your faith or wonder about the meaning of life. I would think almost the opposite - I bet 90% of humans at one time or another ponder "does God exist" "why am I here or" "is that all there is?"

I had an interesting conversation with my 15 year old a few weeks ago. He is starting to think about existentialism and what role religion should play in his life. He goes to mass every week to placate his mom but makes a point of refusing to go when he visits here (we don't attend services). He was amazed to realize his 5-1/2 year old half-sister has been to church once in her life (funeral). Anyway, he said that he found it interesting that science might cause you to adjust/alter what you believe (presuming you take a literal approach to biblical accounts) while he'd never heard of science changing based on religious belief.

I haven't been to services in over a quarter century, but I did encourage my son to keep questioning and keep searching. I think finding greater meaning in life is a very common search. Some find the answer is believing in God. For me, it's more about service to others. But I think it's a worthwhile quest.

 
BobbyLayne said:
Otis said:
I suspect that in 99% of cases, your decision to have faith in X is based solely on the fact that you grew up in a certain part of the world and had parents who decided to tell you to have faith in X.
Click to expand...
99%? Really??

I'm pretty sure humanity is a more reflective than that. It's not exactly a rare occurrence to either question your faith or wonder about the meaning of life. I would think almost the opposite - I bet 90% of humans at one time or another ponder "does God exist" "why am I here or" "is that all there is?"

I had an interesting conversation with my 15 year old a few weeks ago. He is starting to think about existentialism and what role religion should play in his life. He goes to mass every week to placate his mom but makes a point of refusing to go when he visits here (we don't attend services). He was amazed to realize his 5-1/2 year old half-sister has been to church once in her life (funeral). Anyway, he said that he found it interesting that science might cause you to adjust/alter what you believe (presuming you take a literal approach to biblical accounts) while he'd never heard of science changing based on religious belief.

I haven't been to services in over a quarter century, but I did encourage my son to keep questioning and keep searching. I think finding greater meaning in life is a very common search. Some find the answer is believing in God. For me, it's more about service to others. But I think it's a worthwhile quest.
Click to expand...
I totally believe -- without any data -- that 99% of the people in the world who follow religion probably follow the very same religion that their parents follow. It would be interesting to see the data. The ultimate conclusion I would draw is that one's choice of religion isn't driven from personal preference or exploration at all -- they're just generally told to believe in something, and so they believe in it. No doubt there are folks who find their way to a different religion from the one they were taught growing up, but I bet they are outliers.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Otis said:
BobbyLayne said:
Otis said:
I suspect that in 99% of cases, your decision to have faith in X is based solely on the fact that you grew up in a certain part of the world and had parents who decided to tell you to have faith in X.
Click to expand...
99%? Really??

I'm pretty sure humanity is a more reflective than that. It's not exactly a rare occurrence to either question your faith or wonder about the meaning of life. I would think almost the opposite - I bet 90% of humans at one time or another ponder "does God exist" "why am I here or" "is that all there is?"

I had an interesting conversation with my 15 year old a few weeks ago. He is starting to think about existentialism and what role religion should play in his life. He goes to mass every week to placate his mom but makes a point of refusing to go when he visits here (we don't attend services). He was amazed to realize his 5-1/2 year old half-sister has been to church once in her life (funeral). Anyway, he said that he found it interesting that science might cause you to adjust/alter what you believe (presuming you take a literal approach to biblical accounts) while he'd never heard of science changing based on religious belief.

I haven't been to services in over a quarter century, but I did encourage my son to keep questioning and keep searching. I think finding greater meaning in life is a very common search. Some find the answer is believing in God. For me, it's more about service to others. But I think it's a worthwhile quest.
Click to expand...
I totally believe -- without any data -- that 99% of the people in the world who follow religion probably follow the very same religion that their parents follow. It would be interesting to see the data. The ultimate conclusion I would draw is that one's choice of religion isn't driven from personal preference or exploration at all -- they're just generally told to believe in something, and so they believe in it. No doubt there are folks who find their way to a different religion from the one they were taught growing up, but I bet they are outliers.
Click to expand...
The Pew Research Center has data. They publish something called the Religious Landscape Survey.

Anyway, 41% of Americans change their religious beliefs during their lifetime. In a quick perusal I couldn't figure out if they know what percentage have a different belief than their parents (e.g., they switched on their own). I would guess it's higher than the 1% you postulate.

ETA:

:link:

http://religions.pewforum.org/

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I know a lot of people who have converted, many times due to marriage, or who have stepped away from religion altogether. Not to disagree with your point about parents influencing children, but 99% seems high.

 
otello said:
I know a lot of people who have converted, many times due to marriage, or who have stepped away from religion altogether. Not to disagree with your point about parents influencing children, but 99% seems high.
Click to expand...
I'd argue the bolded two instances don't count. In the first, it's someone converting because they have to, i.e., to satisfy their spouse (or in-laws). I see this happen all the time, and it's rarely because the guy one day decided he believed in that religion. He goes through the motions because his wife or her family want him to.

The second bolded group are folks who no longer believe in any religion. That's data that may be relevant for other purposes, but the question here is about those who DO believe in a religion.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
BobbyLayne said:
Otis said:
BobbyLayne said:
Otis said:
I suspect that in 99% of cases, your decision to have faith in X is based solely on the fact that you grew up in a certain part of the world and had parents who decided to tell you to have faith in X.
Click to expand...
99%? Really??

I'm pretty sure humanity is a more reflective than that. It's not exactly a rare occurrence to either question your faith or wonder about the meaning of life. I would think almost the opposite - I bet 90% of humans at one time or another ponder "does God exist" "why am I here or" "is that all there is?"

I had an interesting conversation with my 15 year old a few weeks ago. He is starting to think about existentialism and what role religion should play in his life. He goes to mass every week to placate his mom but makes a point of refusing to go when he visits here (we don't attend services). He was amazed to realize his 5-1/2 year old half-sister has been to church once in her life (funeral). Anyway, he said that he found it interesting that science might cause you to adjust/alter what you believe (presuming you take a literal approach to biblical accounts) while he'd never heard of science changing based on religious belief.

I haven't been to services in over a quarter century, but I did encourage my son to keep questioning and keep searching. I think finding greater meaning in life is a very common search. Some find the answer is believing in God. For me, it's more about service to others. But I think it's a worthwhile quest.
Click to expand...
I totally believe -- without any data -- that 99% of the people in the world who follow religion probably follow the very same religion that their parents follow. It would be interesting to see the data. The ultimate conclusion I would draw is that one's choice of religion isn't driven from personal preference or exploration at all -- they're just generally told to believe in something, and so they believe in it. No doubt there are folks who find their way to a different religion from the one they were taught growing up, but I bet they are outliers.
Click to expand...
The Pew Research Center has data. They publish something called the Religious Landscape Survey.

Anyway, 41% of Americans change their religious beliefs during their lifetime. In a quick perusal I couldn't figure out if they know what percentage have a different belief than their parents (e.g., they switched on their own). I would guess it's higher than the 1% you postulate.

ETA:

:link:

http://religions.pewforum.org/
Click to expand...
Interesting. A "change in beliefs" can mean a lot of things I suppose, including, for example, deciding you don't believe in the religion you were raised in? I guess we'd need to see the details on that poll. But I would be stunned if 41% of religious people in the world found their way to a religion that is different from the one they were raised in, I don't think that can possibly be right.

 
Otis said:
otello said:
I know a lot of people who have converted, many times due to marriage, or who have stepped away from religion altogether. Not to disagree with your point about parents influencing children, but 99% seems high.
Click to expand...
I'd argue the bolded two instances don't count. In the first, it's someone converting because they have to, i.e., to satisfy their spouse (or in-laws). I see this happen all the time, and it's rarely because the guy one day decided he believed in that religion. He goes through the motions because his wife or her family want him to.

The second bolded group are folks who no longer believe in any religion. That's data that may be relevant for other purposes, but the question is about those who DO believe in a religion.
Click to expand...
How about yourself, Otis? Are you agnostic/atheist (or whatever you might be) because your parents were? Or you came to this on your own? Is it a tradition, or the result of an honest self-examination? Has religion always befuddled you?

My parents were Xmas & Easter Methodists. At some point (early to mid teens) I started attending a church & youth group on my own. I was a youth missionary in the Appalachian mountains before I had my driver's license. Within a decade I had soured on the church (met too many men with feet of clay), but I really enjoy a sense of community and love serving others. I found outlets for the latter.

I think most folks trend toward service and philanthropy as they get older. It's a very natural evolution in life. I think we all believe, to some extent, to whom much has been given, much is expected. When you have had success you want to share that and give back to your community. That's become the religion of my middle age.

 
Otis said:
BobbyLayne said:
Otis said:
BobbyLayne said:
Otis said:
I suspect that in 99% of cases, your decision to have faith in X is based solely on the fact that you grew up in a certain part of the world and had parents who decided to tell you to have faith in X.
Click to expand...
99%? Really??

I'm pretty sure humanity is a more reflective than that. It's not exactly a rare occurrence to either question your faith or wonder about the meaning of life. I would think almost the opposite - I bet 90% of humans at one time or another ponder "does God exist" "why am I here or" "is that all there is?"

I had an interesting conversation with my 15 year old a few weeks ago. He is starting to think about existentialism and what role religion should play in his life. He goes to mass every week to placate his mom but makes a point of refusing to go when he visits here (we don't attend services). He was amazed to realize his 5-1/2 year old half-sister has been to church once in her life (funeral). Anyway, he said that he found it interesting that science might cause you to adjust/alter what you believe (presuming you take a literal approach to biblical accounts) while he'd never heard of science changing based on religious belief.

I haven't been to services in over a quarter century, but I did encourage my son to keep questioning and keep searching. I think finding greater meaning in life is a very common search. Some find the answer is believing in God. For me, it's more about service to others. But I think it's a worthwhile quest.
Click to expand...
I totally believe -- without any data -- that 99% of the people in the world who follow religion probably follow the very same religion that their parents follow. It would be interesting to see the data. The ultimate conclusion I would draw is that one's choice of religion isn't driven from personal preference or exploration at all -- they're just generally told to believe in something, and so they believe in it. No doubt there are folks who find their way to a different religion from the one they were taught growing up, but I bet they are outliers.
Click to expand...
The Pew Research Center has data. They publish something called the Religious Landscape Survey.

Anyway, 41% of Americans change their religious beliefs during their lifetime. In a quick perusal I couldn't figure out if they know what percentage have a different belief than their parents (e.g., they switched on their own). I would guess it's higher than the 1% you postulate.

ETA:

:link:

http://religions.pewforum.org/
Click to expand...
Interesting. A "change in beliefs" can mean a lot of things I suppose, including, for example, deciding you don't believe in the religion you were raised in? I guess we'd need to see the details on that poll. But I would be stunned if 41% of religious people in the world found their way to a religion that is different from the one they were raised in, I don't think that can possibly be right.
Click to expand...
'murica, not world.

I also wonder (as was brought up earlier) what percentage is a result of acquiescence for marriage.

 
Otis said:
otello said:
I know a lot of people who have converted, many times due to marriage, or who have stepped away from religion altogether. Not to disagree with your point about parents influencing children, but 99% seems high.
Click to expand...
I'd argue the bolded two instances don't count. In the first, it's someone converting because they have to, i.e., to satisfy their spouse (or in-laws). I see this happen all the time, and it's rarely because the guy one day decided he believed in that religion. He goes through the motions because his wife or her family want him to.

The second bolded group are folks who no longer believe in any religion. That's data that may be relevant for other purposes, but the question here is about those who DO believe in a religion.
Click to expand...
Yes, some convert due to marriage, which is just another influence (similar to parents or the part of the world you grew up in), and which may actually support your larger point that religion is not chosen but thrust upon you; although another force, love of others or God, may be at work as well. Also, how would you explain those who grew up in a non-religious environment and then chose a religion later in life?

 
BobbyLayne said:
Otis said:
otello said:
I know a lot of people who have converted, many times due to marriage, or who have stepped away from religion altogether. Not to disagree with your point about parents influencing children, but 99% seems high.
Click to expand...
I'd argue the bolded two instances don't count. In the first, it's someone converting because they have to, i.e., to satisfy their spouse (or in-laws). I see this happen all the time, and it's rarely because the guy one day decided he believed in that religion. He goes through the motions because his wife or her family want him to.

The second bolded group are folks who no longer believe in any religion. That's data that may be relevant for other purposes, but the question is about those who DO believe in a religion.
Click to expand...
How about yourself, Otis? Are you agnostic/atheist (or whatever you might be) because your parents were? Or you came to this on your own? Is it a tradition, or the result of an honest self-examination? Has religion always befuddled you?

My parents were Xmas & Easter Methodists. At some point (early to mid teens) I started attending a church & youth group on my own. I was a youth missionary in the Appalachian mountains before I had my driver's license. Within a decade I had soured on the church (met too many men with feet of clay), but I really enjoy a sense of community and love serving others. I found outlets for the latter.

I think most folks trend toward service and philanthropy as they get older. It's a very natural evolution in life. I think we all believe, to some extent, to whom much has been given, much is expected. When you have had success you want to share that and give back to your community. That's become the religion of my middle age.
Click to expand...
Sounds like you've come to a good place a day a valuable "religion." Kudos to you.

I was raised Roman Catholic. 6am Sunday mass every week with mom. Went to Catholic high school. Never was all that into it, felt it was kind of a sham, and ultimately went off to college, saw some of the world, and decided that it makes no sense, other than as a crutch for human beings in tough times. It can be a pretty powerful help and resource in those times, but I believe it's little more than that. I do believe in a higher power, but don't believe it's what some guy named, John wrote down thousands of years ago any more than I believe it's Buddhism or Judaism or any other approach. As a guy on the sidelines, I think it takes a healthy dose of hubris for anyone to assume their take on religion is the right take, in the face of so many other established religions.

 
Such a low view of humanity, Otis. So you believe 99% just sheepishly accept whatever their parents direct them toward and never do any self-examination or reflection?

How you were raised certainly has a huge influence. I've thought many times about whether I would believe how I believe had I been born in another region, country, etc. I don't know the answer because I don't know what I would have been exposed to. No one...atheists, Christians, Buddhists...just conjure up their belief system from scratch. Even the Bible says, "faith comes by hearing...and hearing by the word of God."

Anyway, it is an important question for every person to wrestle with. Is my faith genuine..do I really believe in what I say I believe (or don't believe). But your conclusion seems a little dire. I can say without hesitation, not 90% of the congregation I attend was raised in the same faith. I've heard their stories. Move to a larger metropolitan congregation and the percentage would be lower.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
otello said:
Otis said:
otello said:
I know a lot of people who have converted, many times due to marriage, or who have stepped away from religion altogether. Not to disagree with your point about parents influencing children, but 99% seems high.
Click to expand...
I'd argue the bolded two instances don't count. In the first, it's someone converting because they have to, i.e., to satisfy their spouse (or in-laws). I see this happen all the time, and it's rarely because the guy one day decided he believed in that religion. He goes through the motions because his wife or her family want him to.

The second bolded group are folks who no longer believe in any religion. That's data that may be relevant for other purposes, but the question here is about those who DO believe in a religion.
Click to expand...
Yes, some convert due to marriage, which is just another influence (similar to parents or the part of the world you grew up in), and which may actually support your larger point that religion is not chosen but thrust upon you; although another force, love of others or God, may be at work as well. Also, how would you explain those who grew up in a non-religious environment and then chose a religion later in life?
Click to expand...
The bolded is an interesting question. First I think we'd need to establish that there is a meaningful population of people in the world who fit this description. Again I bet it's on the order of 1%, and an outlier.

Even if it's not, I bet the data is in some ways misleading. How many of those people came to religion for the community? Because they were lonely? And not so much for the religion itself? It's sort of like the pack mentality in some of those wacky cults--sometimes people just want to find a place where they can belong.

But in any event, I'd bet this number is small. Again, would be interesting to see the data.

 
Ray Karpis said:
Such a low view of humanity, Otis. So you believe 99% just sheepishly accept whatever their parents direct them toward and never do any self-examination or reflection?

How you were raised certainly has a huge influence. I've thought many times about whether I would believe how I believe had I been born in another region, country, etc. I don't know the answer because I don't know what I would have been exposed to. No one...atheists, Christians, Buddhists...just conjure up their belief system from scratch. Even the Bible says, "faith comes by hearing...and hearing by the word of God."

Anyway, it is an important question for every person to wrestle with. Is my faith genuine..do I really believe in what I say I believe (or don't believe). But your conclusion seems a little dire. I can say without hesitation, not 90% of the congregation I attend was raised in the same faith. I've heard their stories. Move to a larger metropolitan congregation and the percentage would be lower.
Click to expand...
I don't think it's a negative view. Just a practical and realistic one. It's the same reason that religion was conjured up in the first place in so many cultures - - to try and explain things in the world around them that they did not understand and otherwise we're terrified by. There's a good reason for that, and we can be fragile beings in need of coping mechanisms.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Jesus is the only one who really provides hope and Judaism laid the ground work for his coming. Most organized religions have piled on so much legalism on Christ, which is pretty ridiculous seeing that Jesus was completely anti-legalism. I don't see how anyone can make it to heaven through Islam. It is the most condemning religion there is. Of course many will consider that hate speech, but i see it as an inherently oppressive religion which can never get out of the dark ages.

 
Otis said:
otello said:
Otis said:
otello said:
I know a lot of people who have converted, many times due to marriage, or who have stepped away from religion altogether. Not to disagree with your point about parents influencing children, but 99% seems high.
Click to expand...
I'd argue the bolded two instances don't count. In the first, it's someone converting because they have to, i.e., to satisfy their spouse (or in-laws). I see this happen all the time, and it's rarely because the guy one day decided he believed in that religion. He goes through the motions because his wife or her family want him to.

The second bolded group are folks who no longer believe in any religion. That's data that may be relevant for other purposes, but the question here is about those who DO believe in a religion.
Click to expand...
Yes, some convert due to marriage, which is just another influence (similar to parents or the part of the world you grew up in), and which may actually support your larger point that religion is not chosen but thrust upon you; although another force, love of others or God, may be at work as well. Also, how would you explain those who grew up in a non-religious environment and then chose a religion later in life?
Click to expand...
The bolded is an interesting question. First I think we'd need to establish that there is a meaningful population of people in the world who fit this description. Again I bet it's on the order of 1%, and an outlier.

Even if it's not, I bet the data is in some ways misleading. How many of those people came to religion for the community? Because they were lonely? And not so much for the religion itself? It's sort of like the pack mentality in some of those wacky cults--sometimes people just want to find a place where they can belong.

But in any event, I'd bet this number is small. Again, would be interesting to see the data.
Click to expand...
Also, there are those who were brought up in a religion, stepped away from it, and then came back later in life as a choice, to the same or a different faith. This kind of touches on BL's point above.

 
I grew up with funky neo-hippy parents who -

1. Brought me to New Age groups that taught me about the Age of Aquarius, how to meditate using the Silva Mind Control Method (it sounds nefarious but it's really just about controlling yourself).

2. Taught to read the Bible, Tao Te Ching, I Ching. When I was 13 my dad gave me a leather-bound Harvard classics edition of the Socratic death dialogues. I also read all the Lobsang Rampa books (fictional novels about a Tibetian monk).

3. Told over and over that religion is a choice.

So I guess I'm one of Otis' 1%. Because I ended up becoming a Buddhist of sorts, and it had little to do with my parents (sans #3 above).

This is how (tl;dr) -

First I went through a snotty sophomoric period of atheism devoted to Nietzsche. Fortunately Nietzsche led to Heidegger, Derrida, Foucault, Lyotard and especially late period Heidegger. His Discourse of Thinking smelled suspiciously & refreshingly like all those Eastern texts I read when I was 13 years old, especially the Tao Te Ching. Like many other skinny whiteboy intellectuals in the 1990s, I realized that postmodernism had led Western thought full circle to all the stuff that people in China, Japan and India were talking about some 2500 years ago.

As I hit my 30s in the aughts I began to feel an ache inside, a dull constant pain that I came to understand as unrest. It wasn't a lack of purpose; I had my wife and later my son, and an obsessive devotion to my work. Despite all this, the pain was still there. So I dove back into all the more legit texts my parents introduced me to at 13 (i.e. the Eastern philosophy, not the cheesy New Age crap). Which led me to Buddhism and specifically Zen. I met a Zen monk who taught me zazen, and the peace this gave me was exactly what I needed. Buddhism brought me peace.

I'm not exactly the most devote of Buddhists. I still eat meat. Sometimes I flick off cars that cut me off on the highway and tell them to f@#k off. I get impish on the internet and piss people off. I lose my focus on compassion and stillness; like most people my relationship with religion waxes and wanes. I go through periods were I meditate every day for months. Then life gets hectic and I lose touch with Zen. But I'm much happier when I'm reading some Thich Nhat Hanh every night and meditating every morning before work.

Buddhism brings me peace.
 
BobbyLayne said:
Otis said:
I suspect that in 99% of cases, your decision to have faith in X is based solely on the fact that you grew up in a certain part of the world and had parents who decided to tell you to have faith in X.
Click to expand...
99%? Really??

I'm pretty sure humanity is a more reflective than that. It's not exactly a rare occurrence to either question your faith or wonder about the meaning of life. I would think almost the opposite - I bet 90% of humans at one time or another ponder "does God exist" "why am I here or" "is that all there is?"

I had an interesting conversation with my 15 year old a few weeks ago. He is starting to think about existentialism and what role religion should play in his life. He goes to mass every week to placate his mom but makes a point of refusing to go when he visits here (we don't attend services). He was amazed to realize his 5-1/2 year old half-sister has been to church once in her life (funeral). Anyway, he said that he found it interesting that science might cause you to adjust/alter what you believe (presuming you take a literal approach to biblical accounts) while he'd never heard of science changing based on religious belief.

I haven't been to services in over a quarter century, but I did encourage my son to keep questioning and keep searching. I think finding greater meaning in life is a very common search. Some find the answer is believing in God. For me, it's more about service to others. But I think it's a worthwhile quest.
Click to expand...
This all makes sense, Otis nails it on why you believe in your god. :yes:

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Gnat Berries said:
I grew up with funky neo-hippy parents who -

1. Brought me to New Age groups that taught me about the Age of Aquarius, how to meditate using the Silva Mind Control Method (it sounds nefarious but it's really just about controlling yourself).

2. Taught to read the Bible, Tao Te Ching, I Ching. When I was 13 my dad gave me a leather-bound Harvard classics edition of the Socratic death dialogues. I also read all the Lobsang Rampa books (fictional novels about a Tibetian monk).

3. Told over and over that religion is a choice.

So I guess I'm one of Otis' 1%. Because I ended up becoming a Buddhist of sorts, and it had little to do with my parents (sans #3 above).

This is how (tl;dr) -

First I went through a snotty sophomoric period of atheism devoted to Nietzsche. Fortunately Nietzsche led to Heidegger, Derrida, Foucault, Lyotard and especially late period Heidegger. His Discourse of Thinking smelled suspiciously & refreshingly like all those Eastern texts I read when I was 13 years old, especially the Tao Te Ching. Like many other skinny whiteboy intellectuals in the 1990s, I realized that postmodernism had led Western thought full circle to all the stuff that people in China, Japan and India were talking about some 2500 years ago.

As I hit my 30s in the aughts I began to feel an ache inside, a dull constant pain that I came to understand as unrest. It wasn't a lack of purpose; I had my wife and later my son, and an obsessive devotion to my work. Despite all this, the pain was still there. So I dove back into all the more legit texts my parents introduced me to at 13 (i.e. the Eastern philosophy, not the cheesy New Age crap). Which led me to Buddhism and specifically Zen. I met a Zen monk who taught me zazen, and the peace this gave me was exactly what I needed. Buddhism brought me peace.

I'm not exactly the most devote of Buddhists. I still eat meat. Sometimes I flick off cars that cut me off on the highway and tell them to f@#k off. I get impish on the internet and piss people off. I lose my focus on compassion and stillness; like most people my relationship with religion waxes and wanes. I go through periods were I meditate every day for months. Then life gets hectic and I lose touch with Zen. But I'm much happier when I'm reading some Thich Nhat Hanh every night and meditating every morning before work.

Buddhism brings me peace.
Click to expand...
Unlikely you would be Buddhist if your parents didn't give you the choice.

 
jon_mx said:
Jesus is the only one who really provides hope and Judaism laid the ground work for his coming. Most organized religions have piled on so much legalism on Christ, which is pretty ridiculous seeing that Jesus was completely anti-legalism. I don't see how anyone can make it to heaven through Islam. It is the most condemning religion there is. Of course many will consider that hate speech, but i see it as an inherently oppressive religion which can never get out of the dark ages.
Click to expand...
Some parts of the Bible aren't exactly a model of acceptance and peace.

 
jon_mx said:
Jesus is the only one who really provides hope and Judaism laid the ground work for his coming. Most organized religions have piled on so much legalism on Christ, which is pretty ridiculous seeing that Jesus was completely anti-legalism. I don't see how anyone can make it to heaven through Islam. It is the most condemning religion there is. Of course many will consider that hate speech, but i see it as an inherently oppressive religion which can never get out of the dark ages.
Click to expand...
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

 
My parents made me go to church when I was younger. Once I turned 18, stopped going unless it was a Wedding or Funeral and kept it up for 20 or so years.

But then went back to church on the invitation of a friend. Found the Lord, was re-baptisted and was happy for a while. But then things happened in my life that began to re-question my faith.

Right now, I am going to my church for the Fellowship. I am not feeling the presence of the Lord in me right now. I hope it will come back

 
Gnat Berries said:
I grew up with funky neo-hippy parents who -

1. Brought me to New Age groups that taught me about the Age of Aquarius, how to meditate using the Silva Mind Control Method (it sounds nefarious but it's really just about controlling yourself).

2. Taught to read the Bible, Tao Te Ching, I Ching. When I was 13 my dad gave me a leather-bound Harvard classics edition of the Socratic death dialogues. I also read all the Lobsang Rampa books (fictional novels about a Tibetian monk).

3. Told over and over that religion is a choice.

So I guess I'm one of Otis' 1%. Because I ended up becoming a Buddhist of sorts, and it had little to do with my parents (sans #3 above).

This is how (tl;dr) -

First I went through a snotty sophomoric period of atheism devoted to Nietzsche. Fortunately Nietzsche led to Heidegger, Derrida, Foucault, Lyotard and especially late period Heidegger. His Discourse of Thinking smelled suspiciously & refreshingly like all those Eastern texts I read when I was 13 years old, especially the Tao Te Ching. Like many other skinny whiteboy intellectuals in the 1990s, I realized that postmodernism had led Western thought full circle to all the stuff that people in China, Japan and India were talking about some 2500 years ago.

As I hit my 30s in the aughts I began to feel an ache inside, a dull constant pain that I came to understand as unrest. It wasn't a lack of purpose; I had my wife and later my son, and an obsessive devotion to my work. Despite all this, the pain was still there. So I dove back into all the more legit texts my parents introduced me to at 13 (i.e. the Eastern philosophy, not the cheesy New Age crap). Which led me to Buddhism and specifically Zen. I met a Zen monk who taught me zazen, and the peace this gave me was exactly what I needed. Buddhism brought me peace.

I'm not exactly the most devote of Buddhists. I still eat meat. Sometimes I flick off cars that cut me off on the highway and tell them to f@#k off. I get impish on the internet and piss people off. I lose my focus on compassion and stillness; like most people my relationship with religion waxes and wanes. I go through periods were I meditate every day for months. Then life gets hectic and I lose touch with Zen. But I'm much happier when I'm reading some Thich Nhat Hanh every night and meditating every morning before work.

Buddhism brings me peace.
Click to expand...
Yeah you're definitely an outlier, but you also don't seem to have come from a different religion from your parents in that they didn't seem to have a singular "right" religion either. They handed you a wild card and told you to pick what you like. It's non traditional (and awesome by the way), but it's not what I'm talking about when I say finding a different religion from your parents.

 
badmojo1006 said:
My parents made me go to church when I was younger. Once I turned 18, stopped going unless it was a Wedding or Funeral and kept it up for 20 or so years.

But then went back to church on the invitation of a friend. Found the Lord, was re-baptisted and was happy for a while. But then things happened in my life that began to re-question my faith.

Right now, I am going to my church for the Fellowship. I am not feeling the presence of the Lord in me right now. I hope it will come back
Click to expand...
Coming back to what is essentially the same religion you were raised in also isn't part of what I'd consider different. I'm wondering about a situation in which a guy raised Buddhist finds Jesus, or vice versa. Again, I'm sure there are some, but it's got to be like 1% or less of those who would classify themselves as religious.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Otis said:
jon_mx said:
Jesus is the only one who really provides hope and Judaism laid the ground work for his coming. Most organized religions have piled on so much legalism on Christ, which is pretty ridiculous seeing that Jesus was completely anti-legalism. I don't see how anyone can make it to heaven through Islam. It is the most condemning religion there is. Of course many will consider that hate speech, but i see it as an inherently oppressive religion which can never get out of the dark ages.
Click to expand...
Some parts of the Bible aren't exactly a model of acceptance and peace.
Click to expand...
You can't differentiate against the law established by the Old Testament and the message of Jesus?

 
pantherclub said:
jon_mx said:
Jesus is the only one who really provides hope and Judaism laid the ground work for his coming. Most organized religions have piled on so much legalism on Christ, which is pretty ridiculous seeing that Jesus was completely anti-legalism. I don't see how anyone can make it to heaven through Islam. It is the most condemning religion there is. Of course many will consider that hate speech, but i see it as an inherently oppressive religion which can never get out of the dark ages.
Click to expand...
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
Click to expand...
As always, stellar input. Let's hear your answers to life

 
Last edited by a moderator:
jon_mx said:
Otis said:
jon_mx said:
Jesus is the only one who really provides hope and Judaism laid the ground work for his coming. Most organized religions have piled on so much legalism on Christ, which is pretty ridiculous seeing that Jesus was completely anti-legalism. I don't see how anyone can make it to heaven through Islam. It is the most condemning religion there is. Of course many will consider that hate speech, but i see it as an inherently oppressive religion which can never get out of the dark ages.
Click to expand...
Some parts of the Bible aren't exactly a model of acceptance and peace.
Click to expand...
You can't differentiate against the law established by the Old Testament and the message of Jesus?
Click to expand...
How convenient to pick and choose what to believe from the Bible.

 
jon_mx said:
Otis said:
jon_mx said:
Jesus is the only one who really provides hope and Judaism laid the ground work for his coming. Most organized religions have piled on so much legalism on Christ, which is pretty ridiculous seeing that Jesus was completely anti-legalism. I don't see how anyone can make it to heaven through Islam. It is the most condemning religion there is. Of course many will consider that hate speech, but i see it as an inherently oppressive religion which can never get out of the dark ages.
Click to expand...
Some parts of the Bible aren't exactly a model of acceptance and peace.
Click to expand...
You can't differentiate against the law established by the Old Testament and the message of Jesus?
Click to expand...
Sure I can. Is that what your religion tells you to do? I always assumed the old testament was part of Christianity.

 
jon_mx said:
pantherclub said:
jon_mx said:
Jesus is the only one who really provides hope and Judaism laid the ground work for his coming. Most organized religions have piled on so much legalism on Christ, which is pretty ridiculous seeing that Jesus was completely anti-legalism. I don't see how anyone can make it to heaven through Islam. It is the most condemning religion there is. Of course many will consider that hate speech, but i see it as an inherently oppressive religion which can never get out of the dark ages.
Click to expand...
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
Click to expand...
As always, stellar input. Let's hear your answers to life
Click to expand...
Thats easy

1.Dont get married before 30

2. Try LSD at least once (it will change your life)

3. Weed should be legal

next question

 
matuski said:
Gnat Berries said:
I grew up with funky neo-hippy parents who -

1. Brought me to New Age groups that taught me about the Age of Aquarius, how to meditate using the Silva Mind Control Method (it sounds nefarious but it's really just about controlling yourself).

2. Taught to read the Bible, Tao Te Ching, I Ching. When I was 13 my dad gave me a leather-bound Harvard classics edition of the Socratic death dialogues. I also read all the Lobsang Rampa books (fictional novels about a Tibetian monk).

3. Told over and over that religion is a choice.

So I guess I'm one of Otis' 1%. Because I ended up becoming a Buddhist of sorts, and it had little to do with my parents (sans #3 above).

This is how (tl;dr) -

First I went through a snotty sophomoric period of atheism devoted to Nietzsche. Fortunately Nietzsche led to Heidegger, Derrida, Foucault, Lyotard and especially late period Heidegger. His Discourse of Thinking smelled suspiciously & refreshingly like all those Eastern texts I read when I was 13 years old, especially the Tao Te Ching. Like many other skinny whiteboy intellectuals in the 1990s, I realized that postmodernism had led Western thought full circle to all the stuff that people in China, Japan and India were talking about some 2500 years ago.

As I hit my 30s in the aughts I began to feel an ache inside, a dull constant pain that I came to understand as unrest. It wasn't a lack of purpose; I had my wife and later my son, and an obsessive devotion to my work. Despite all this, the pain was still there. So I dove back into all the more legit texts my parents introduced me to at 13 (i.e. the Eastern philosophy, not the cheesy New Age crap). Which led me to Buddhism and specifically Zen. I met a Zen monk who taught me zazen, and the peace this gave me was exactly what I needed. Buddhism brought me peace.

I'm not exactly the most devote of Buddhists. I still eat meat. Sometimes I flick off cars that cut me off on the highway and tell them to f@#k off. I get impish on the internet and piss people off. I lose my focus on compassion and stillness; like most people my relationship with religion waxes and wanes. I go through periods were I meditate every day for months. Then life gets hectic and I lose touch with Zen. But I'm much happier when I'm reading some Thich Nhat Hanh every night and meditating every morning before work.

Buddhism brings me peace.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Unlikely you would be Buddhist if your parents didn't give you the choice.
Yea....did you miss the part where I said that? Check the bolded.

 
pantherclub said:
jon_mx said:
pantherclub said:
jon_mx said:
Jesus is the only one who really provides hope and Judaism laid the ground work for his coming. Most organized religions have piled on so much legalism on Christ, which is pretty ridiculous seeing that Jesus was completely anti-legalism. I don't see how anyone can make it to heaven through Islam. It is the most condemning religion there is. Of course many will consider that hate speech, but i see it as an inherently oppressive religion which can never get out of the dark ages.
Click to expand...
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
Click to expand...
As always, stellar input. Let's hear your answers to life
Click to expand...
Thats easy

1.Dont get married before 30

2. Try LSD at least once (it will change your life)

3. Weed should be legal

next question
Click to expand...
4. Be excellent to each other.

5. And party on, dude.

 
badmojo1006 said:
My parents made me go to church when I was younger. Once I turned 18, stopped going unless it was a Wedding or Funeral and kept it up for 20 or so years.

But then went back to church on the invitation of a friend. Found the Lord, was re-baptisted and was happy for a while. But then things happened in my life that began to re-question my faith.

Right now, I am going to my church for the Fellowship. I am not feeling the presence of the Lord in me right now. I hope it will come back
Click to expand...
You bring up a new question. Do you have to have religion to believe in God?

 
Gnat Berries said:
pantherclub said:
jon_mx said:
pantherclub said:
jon_mx said:
Jesus is the only one who really provides hope and Judaism laid the ground work for his coming. Most organized religions have piled on so much legalism on Christ, which is pretty ridiculous seeing that Jesus was completely anti-legalism. I don't see how anyone can make it to heaven through Islam. It is the most condemning religion there is. Of course many will consider that hate speech, but i see it as an inherently oppressive religion which can never get out of the dark ages.
Click to expand...
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
Click to expand...
As always, stellar input. Let's hear your answers to life
Click to expand...
Thats easy1.Dont get married before 30

2. Try LSD at least once (it will change your life)

3. Weed should be legal

next question
Click to expand...
4. Be excellent to each other.

5. And party on, dude.
Click to expand...
This guy gets it

Pretty easy and simple way to live your life.

 
pantherclub said:
Gnat Berries said:
pantherclub said:
jon_mx said:
pantherclub said:
jon_mx said:
Jesus is the only one who really provides hope and Judaism laid the ground work for his coming. Most organized religions have piled on so much legalism on Christ, which is pretty ridiculous seeing that Jesus was completely anti-legalism. I don't see how anyone can make it to heaven through Islam. It is the most condemning religion there is. Of course many will consider that hate speech, but i see it as an inherently oppressive religion which can never get out of the dark ages.
Click to expand...
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
Click to expand...
As always, stellar input. Let's hear your answers to life
Click to expand...
Thats easy1.Dont get married before 30

2. Try LSD at least once (it will change your life)

3. Weed should be legal

next question
Click to expand...
4. Be excellent to each other.

5. And party on, dude.
Click to expand...
This guy gets it

Pretty easy and simple way to live your life.
Click to expand...
I guess it doesn't apply to posting in the FFA?

 
KCitons said:
badmojo1006 said:
My parents made me go to church when I was younger. Once I turned 18, stopped going unless it was a Wedding or Funeral and kept it up for 20 or so years.

But then went back to church on the invitation of a friend. Found the Lord, was re-baptisted and was happy for a while. But then things happened in my life that began to re-question my faith.

Right now, I am going to my church for the Fellowship. I am not feeling the presence of the Lord in me right now. I hope it will come back
Click to expand...
You bring up a new question. Do you have to have religion to believe in God?
Click to expand...
No, no you don't. I know many people who believe in God but do not go to church. I am almost the opposite. I am really not sure if I believe in God, but go to Church

 
Otis said:
badmojo1006 said:
My parents made me go to church when I was younger. Once I turned 18, stopped going unless it was a Wedding or Funeral and kept it up for 20 or so years.

But then went back to church on the invitation of a friend. Found the Lord, was re-baptisted and was happy for a while. But then things happened in my life that began to re-question my faith.

Right now, I am going to my church for the Fellowship. I am not feeling the presence of the Lord in me right now. I hope it will come back
Click to expand...
Coming back to what is essentially the same religion you were raised in also isn't part of what I'd consider different. I'm wondering about a situation in which a guy raised Buddhist finds Jesus, or vice versa. Again, I'm sure there are some, but it's got to be like 1% or less of those who would classify themselves as religious.
Click to expand...
In the 20 years I did not go to Church, I did dabble in Buddhism. Went to "services" and learned how to mediate. But it didn't stick at the time. I am considering going back. :shrug:

 
KCitons said:
pantherclub said:
Gnat Berries said:
pantherclub said:
jon_mx said:
pantherclub said:
jon_mx said:
Jesus is the only one who really provides hope and Judaism laid the ground work for his coming. Most organized religions have piled on so much legalism on Christ, which is pretty ridiculous seeing that Jesus was completely anti-legalism. I don't see how anyone can make it to heaven through Islam. It is the most condemning religion there is. Of course many will consider that hate speech, but i see it as an inherently oppressive religion which can never get out of the dark ages.
Click to expand...
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
Click to expand...
As always, stellar input. Let's hear your answers to life
Click to expand...
Thats easy1.Dont get married before 30

2. Try LSD at least once (it will change your life)

3. Weed should be legal

next question
Click to expand...
4. Be excellent to each other.

5. And party on, dude.
Click to expand...
This guy gets it

Pretty easy and simple way to live your life.
Click to expand...
I guess it doesn't apply to posting in the FFA?
Click to expand...
They're clearly rules and maxims that are followed when we're at our best, and ignored when we feel like telling people like you to go sh!t a brick down the throat of your first born son, and eat the byproduct for clarity.

 
pantherclub said:
jon_mx said:
Otis said:
jon_mx said:
Jesus is the only one who really provides hope and Judaism laid the ground work for his coming. Most organized religions have piled on so much legalism on Christ, which is pretty ridiculous seeing that Jesus was completely anti-legalism. I don't see how anyone can make it to heaven through Islam. It is the most condemning religion there is. Of course many will consider that hate speech, but i see it as an inherently oppressive religion which can never get out of the dark ages.
Click to expand...
Some parts of the Bible aren't exactly a model of acceptance and peace.
Click to expand...
You can't differentiate against the law established by the Old Testament and the message of Jesus?
Click to expand...
How convenient to pick and choose what to believe from the Bible.
Click to expand...
You really don't get it do you? Understandable. :shrug:

 
badmojo1006 said:
Otis said:
badmojo1006 said:
My parents made me go to church when I was younger. Once I turned 18, stopped going unless it was a Wedding or Funeral and kept it up for 20 or so years.

But then went back to church on the invitation of a friend. Found the Lord, was re-baptisted and was happy for a while. But then things happened in my life that began to re-question my faith.

Right now, I am going to my church for the Fellowship. I am not feeling the presence of the Lord in me right now. I hope it will come back
Click to expand...
Coming back to what is essentially the same religion you were raised in also isn't part of what I'd consider different. I'm wondering about a situation in which a guy raised Buddhist finds Jesus, or vice versa. Again, I'm sure there are some, but it's got to be like 1% or less of those who would classify themselves as religious.
Click to expand...
In the 20 years I did not go to Church, I did dabble in Buddhism. Went to "services" and learned how to mediate. But it didn't stick at the time. I am considering going back. :shrug:
Click to expand...
I like to think of meditation as a practice of calmness and cool, rather than faith. The two can be intertwined (for example, meditating on the Noble Eightfold Path) or not (for example, meditating on just calming the mind and being cool to others, even your enemies, which incidentally, is a very Jesus Christ thing to do).

 
jon_mx said:
pantherclub said:
jon_mx said:
Otis said:
jon_mx said:
Jesus is the only one who really provides hope and Judaism laid the ground work for his coming. Most organized religions have piled on so much legalism on Christ, which is pretty ridiculous seeing that Jesus was completely anti-legalism. I don't see how anyone can make it to heaven through Islam. It is the most condemning religion there is. Of course many will consider that hate speech, but i see it as an inherently oppressive religion which can never get out of the dark ages.
Click to expand...
Some parts of the Bible aren't exactly a model of acceptance and peace.
Click to expand...
You can't differentiate against the law established by the Old Testament and the message of Jesus?
Click to expand...
How convenient to pick and choose what to believe from the Bible.
Click to expand...
You really don't get it do you? Understandable. :shrug:
Click to expand...
Well then explain it to me

 
pantherclub said:
jon_mx said:
pantherclub said:
jon_mx said:
Otis said:
jon_mx said:
Jesus is the only one who really provides hope and Judaism laid the ground work for his coming. Most organized religions have piled on so much legalism on Christ, which is pretty ridiculous seeing that Jesus was completely anti-legalism. I don't see how anyone can make it to heaven through Islam. It is the most condemning religion there is. Of course many will consider that hate speech, but i see it as an inherently oppressive religion which can never get out of the dark ages.
Click to expand...
Some parts of the Bible aren't exactly a model of acceptance and peace.
Click to expand...
You can't differentiate against the law established by the Old Testament and the message of Jesus?
Click to expand...
How convenient to pick and choose what to believe from the Bible.
Click to expand...
You really don't get it do you? Understandable. :shrug:
Click to expand...
Well then explain it to me
Click to expand...
Jesus fulfilled the law and replaced it with a New Covenant. So there is no picking and chosing rules. It is simply having faith in Jesus as your savior.

 
jon_mx said:
pantherclub said:
jon_mx said:
pantherclub said:
jon_mx said:
Otis said:
jon_mx said:
Jesus is the only one who really provides hope and Judaism laid the ground work for his coming. Most organized religions have piled on so much legalism on Christ, which is pretty ridiculous seeing that Jesus was completely anti-legalism. I don't see how anyone can make it to heaven through Islam. It is the most condemning religion there is. Of course many will consider that hate speech, but i see it as an inherently oppressive religion which can never get out of the dark ages.
Click to expand...
Some parts of the Bible aren't exactly a model of acceptance and peace.
Click to expand...
You can't differentiate against the law established by the Old Testament and the message of Jesus?
Click to expand...
How convenient to pick and choose what to believe from the Bible.
Click to expand...
You really don't get it do you? Understandable. :shrug:
Click to expand...
Well then explain it to me
Click to expand...
Jesus fulfilled the law and replaced it with a New Covenant. So there is no picking and chosing rules. It is simply having faith in Jesus as your savior.
Click to expand...
They had Jesus pick and choose so nobody else had to take the blame.

 
Gnat Berries said:
matuski said:
Gnat Berries said:
I grew up with funky neo-hippy parents who -

1. Brought me to New Age groups that taught me about the Age of Aquarius, how to meditate using the Silva Mind Control Method (it sounds nefarious but it's really just about controlling yourself).

2. Taught to read the Bible, Tao Te Ching, I Ching. When I was 13 my dad gave me a leather-bound Harvard classics edition of the Socratic death dialogues. I also read all the Lobsang Rampa books (fictional novels about a Tibetian monk).

3. Told over and over that religion is a choice.

So I guess I'm one of Otis' 1%. Because I ended up becoming a Buddhist of sorts, and it had little to do with my parents (sans #3 above).

This is how (tl;dr) -

First I went through a snotty sophomoric period of atheism devoted to Nietzsche. Fortunately Nietzsche led to Heidegger, Derrida, Foucault, Lyotard and especially late period Heidegger. His Discourse of Thinking smelled suspiciously & refreshingly like all those Eastern texts I read when I was 13 years old, especially the Tao Te Ching. Like many other skinny whiteboy intellectuals in the 1990s, I realized that postmodernism had led Western thought full circle to all the stuff that people in China, Japan and India were talking about some 2500 years ago.

As I hit my 30s in the aughts I began to feel an ache inside, a dull constant pain that I came to understand as unrest. It wasn't a lack of purpose; I had my wife and later my son, and an obsessive devotion to my work. Despite all this, the pain was still there. So I dove back into all the more legit texts my parents introduced me to at 13 (i.e. the Eastern philosophy, not the cheesy New Age crap). Which led me to Buddhism and specifically Zen. I met a Zen monk who taught me zazen, and the peace this gave me was exactly what I needed. Buddhism brought me peace.

I'm not exactly the most devote of Buddhists. I still eat meat. Sometimes I flick off cars that cut me off on the highway and tell them to f@#k off. I get impish on the internet and piss people off. I lose my focus on compassion and stillness; like most people my relationship with religion waxes and wanes. I go through periods were I meditate every day for months. Then life gets hectic and I lose touch with Zen. But I'm much happier when I'm reading some Thich Nhat Hanh every night and meditating every morning before work.

Buddhism brings me peace.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Unlikely you would be Buddhist if your parents didn't give you the choice.
Click to expand...
Yea....did you miss the part where I said that? Check the bolded.
No, I was reinforcing the point of the OP.. did you miss that?

 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

rockaction
  • Poll
The Death/Loss Of Religion In America
15 16 17
Replies
814
Views
19K
Goldminer1
Goldminer1
Joe Bryant
  • Poll
Are You In Favor Of Not Allowing Social Media For Young People?
4 5 6
Replies
255
Views
4K
Rich Conway
R
belljr
You are the manager ..... work decision.
Replies
18
Views
351
falguy
F

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Top