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Taliban kill 126 in a Pakistan school. Mostly children (1 Viewer)

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http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/16/world/asia/pakistan-peshawar-school-attack/

Islamabad, Pakistan (CNN) - The Taliban stormed a military-run school in northwest Pakistan on Tuesday, gunning down at least 126 people -- most of them children -- in one of the volatile Asian nation's deadliest attacks.

Hours after the attack, Pakistani troops were still exchanging gunfire with the militants inside the Army Public School and Degree College in the violence-plagued city of Peshawar, about 120 kilometers (75 miles) from the country's capital, Islamabad.

Two explosions were also heard.

By around 4 p.m. (6 a.m. ET), the Pakistani military had pushed the attackers back to four blocks of the school, military spokesman Gen. Asim BajwaI tweeted. BajwaI added a short time later that five assailants had been killed.

It was unclear, by then, how many of the military school's hundreds of students were still inside -- and how many were dead and alive.

Reports on the scale of the bloodshed spiked dramatically, from a handful to upwards of 100, in a few short hours earlier Thursday. Where the death toll would end up is still uncertain, though it's sure to be horrific.

Most of those killed were between the ages of 12 and 16, according to Pervez Khattak, chief minister of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province, where Peshawar is located.

 
They gunned them down, children, like slaughter.

How does this not get put down as pure evil? Can anyone really speak of it as anything else?

We're uncomfortable with it but this has been the great moral and ideological struggle of our time, since at least September 11, 2001.

It continues.

 
The Pakistani government has been playing a duplicitous game for a long time. They pretend to work with us on going after terrorists while at the same time hiding and coddling many of them. There was no way that high level military guys didn't know where bin Laden was for instance.

This is horrific and the Islamic monsters that did this hold the vast amount of responsibility, but the government holds some as well for the dangerous game they've been playing. Now they know that you can't befriend a viper.

 
GroveDiesel said:
The Pakistani government has been playing a duplicitous game for a long time. They pretend to work with us on going after terrorists while at the same time hiding and coddling many of them. There was no way that high level military guys didn't know where bin Laden was for instance.

This is horrific and the Islamic monsters that did this hold the vast amount of responsibility, but the government holds some as well for the dangerous game they've been playing. Now they know that you can't befriend a viper.
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Yet it seems the Taliban was targeting military leaders by hitting this school. Seems odd, if the military were supporting the taliban.

 
Do the Taliban not consider 12-16 yos as kids? serious-ish question.

eta; still horrible regardless of the answer.

 
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Sinn Fein said:
GroveDiesel said:
The Pakistani government has been playing a duplicitous game for a long time. They pretend to work with us on going after terrorists while at the same time hiding and coddling many of them. There was no way that high level military guys didn't know where bin Laden was for instance.

This is horrific and the Islamic monsters that did this hold the vast amount of responsibility, but the government holds some as well for the dangerous game they've been playing. Now they know that you can't befriend a viper.
Click to expand...
Yet it seems the Taliban was targeting military leaders by hitting this school. Seems odd, if the military were supporting the taliban.
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It's chickens roosting. - Yes, Pakistan has played both sides of the fence, with the Taliban and the US.

Pakistan's main fear is India taking root in Afghanistan, really through the Kashmir, Kirghiz and Peshawar, they are obsessed with the Indians, and that begets irrational policy.

 
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As an American, from a strategic perspective, I can't help but think this will work against the Taliban. You do this to an American school and you will raise the ire of the whole country, resulting in a call to wipe the Taliban out. But I'm not sure it will have the same effect on the Pakistanis as they have historically been hit by aggressive attacks. Will it sap the fight out of the Pakistani military/gov't or will it result in a major push against the Taliban?

 
kentric said:
As an American, from a strategic perspective, I can't help but think this will work against the Taliban. You do this to an American school and you will raise the ire of the whole country, resulting in a call to wipe the Taliban out. But I'm not sure it will have the same effect on the Pakistanis as they have historically been hit by aggressive attacks. Will it sap the fight out of the Pakistani military/gov't or will it result in a major push against the Taliban?
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It could be a major blunder, this might seriously turn the Pakistani public against the Taliban. The problem is the northwest provinces are their own thing, several regions there support the Taliban and it's like a whole other country within the country.

 
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El Floppo said:
Do the Taliban not consider 12-16 yos as kids? serious-ish question.

eta; still horrible regardless of the answer.
Click to expand...
Hang 10 said:
And some say we don't have the moral high ground over these animals?
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I ask the question about perception of adulthood for this reason.

We obviously consider 12-16 yos to be children. I doubt they do. So in their minds (I'm guessing), they're killing enemy combatants (military school? school for military personnel?).

Again- to me this irrelevant, horrible and evil regardless of the ages (and even worse because of the ages)... but I am trying to to understand how ANYBODY could morally rationalize doing such a thing... and that's all I've got.

 
El Floppo said:
El Floppo said:
Do the Taliban not consider 12-16 yos as kids? serious-ish question.

eta; still horrible regardless of the answer.
Click to expand...
Hang 10 said:
And some say we don't have the moral high ground over these animals?
Click to expand...
I ask the question about perception of adulthood for this reason.

We obviously consider 12-16 yos to be children. I doubt they do. So in their minds (I'm guessing), they're killing enemy combatants (military school? school for military personnel?).

Again- to me this irrelevant, horrible and evil regardless of the ages (and even worse because of the ages)... but I am trying to to understand how ANYBODY could morally rationalize doing such a thing... and that's all I've got.
Click to expand...
Hard to say without knowing the makeup of the student body - both age and pedigree. I think this was a 1st-8th grade type school, which suggests younger kids, and I have seen it reported that children of military leaders attended the school. Not sure of the accuracy, but if true, it could mean they chose a target-rich environment meant to inflict as much pain/emotional damage on military leaders.

 
Sinn Fein said:
El Floppo said:
El Floppo said:
Do the Taliban not consider 12-16 yos as kids? serious-ish question.

eta; still horrible regardless of the answer.
Click to expand...
Hang 10 said:
And some say we don't have the moral high ground over these animals?
Click to expand...
I ask the question about perception of adulthood for this reason.

We obviously consider 12-16 yos to be children. I doubt they do. So in their minds (I'm guessing), they're killing enemy combatants (military school? school for military personnel?).

Again- to me this irrelevant, horrible and evil regardless of the ages (and even worse because of the ages)... but I am trying to to understand how ANYBODY could morally rationalize doing such a thing... and that's all I've got.
Click to expand...
Hard to say without knowing the makeup of the student body - both age and pedigree. I think this was a 1st-8th grade type school, which suggests younger kids, and I have seen it reported that children of military leaders attended the school. Not sure of the accuracy, but if true, it could mean they chose a target-rich environment meant to inflict as much pain/emotional damage on military leaders.
Click to expand...
only thing I read said the students were aged 12-16, which is why I put those ages out there.

 
El Floppo said:
Do the Taliban not consider 12-16 yos as kids? serious-ish question.

eta; still horrible regardless of the answer.
Click to expand...
Probably not as they even recruit younger ones to fight. As soon as you can understand things somewhat, you are no longer considered a kid as we know it in their demented minds. How sad. Feel terrible for the families too. :(

 
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Who knows with early reports, but this is what I saw:

Some child hostages were thought to be held at gunpoint by militants in the school's main auditorium. The military-run school has students in grades one through 10.
Click to expand...
 
Sinn Fein said:
Who knows with early reports, but this is what I saw:

Some child hostages were thought to be held at gunpoint by militants in the school's main auditorium. The military-run school has students in grades one through 10.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
I know we're not arguing here- especially with the news for this so early... but here's what I read (from CNN- so grain of salt and all that)

Most of those killed were between the ages of 12 and 16, said Pervez Khattak, chief minister of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province, of which Peshawar is the capital
Click to expand...
 
Hang 10 said:
And some say we don't have the moral high ground over these animals?
Click to expand...
I know you don't want to hear this, especially this morning, but it's not an easy answer. Yes I believe we do have the moral high ground, ultimately, but we have killed children ourselves. The U.S. has committed plenty of war crimes, and we have also paid for and supported terrorists who have committed acts equally horrific to the one this morning. Yes we are better than they are but the difference is less wide than you imply.
 
timschochet said:
Hang 10 said:
And some say we don't have the moral high ground over these animals?
Click to expand...
I know you don't want to hear this, especially this morning, but it's not an easy answer. Yes I believe we do have the moral high ground, ultimately, but we have killed children ourselves. The U.S. has committed plenty of war crimes, and we have also paid for and supported terrorists who have committed acts equally horrific to the one this morning. Yes we are better than they are but the difference is less wide than you imply.
Click to expand...
War is horrible and some of the collateral damage is tragic but we do not target children to murder in cold blood.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
They gunned them down, children, like slaughter.

How does this not get put down as pure evil? Can anyone really speak of it as anything else?

We're uncomfortable with it but this has been the great moral and ideological struggle of our time, since at least September 11, 2001.

It continues.
Click to expand...
Why would anybody be uncomfortable about it? It is pure evil and hatred and a total disregard for families and human life.

 
Hang 10 said:
timschochet said:
Hang 10 said:
And some say we don't have the moral high ground over these animals?
Click to expand...
I know you don't want to hear this, especially this morning, but it's not an easy answer. Yes I believe we do have the moral high ground, ultimately, but we have killed children ourselves. The U.S. has committed plenty of war crimes, and we have also paid for and supported terrorists who have committed acts equally horrific to the one this morning. Yes we are better than they are but the difference is less wide than you imply.
Click to expand...
War is horrible and some of the collateral damage is tragic but we do not target children to murder in cold blood.
Click to expand...
My Lai Massacre
 
I don't follow most of these threads closely because it's depressing and quite frankly there's nothing I can do about the situation. I have a couple of questions.

1. Can the people who live in these regions freely move to another part of the world (ignoring cost, immigration, etc) - can they just leave?

2. If the answer is yes, why don't they or are we seeing people move and we don't hear about it?

It impossible to know what their lives are like but I can't imagine a scenario where something like this happens near me or in my country and not moving far, far away.

ETA - maybe people feel that way our our individual gunmen in the States who kill a group but it seems different and more accepted in that region.

 
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Hang 10 said:
timschochet said:
Hang 10 said:
And some say we don't have the moral high ground over these animals?
Click to expand...
I know you don't want to hear this, especially this morning, but it's not an easy answer. Yes I believe we do have the moral high ground, ultimately, but we have killed children ourselves. The U.S. has committed plenty of war crimes, and we have also paid for and supported terrorists who have committed acts equally horrific to the one this morning. Yes we are better than they are but the difference is less wide than you imply.
Click to expand...
War is horrible and some of the collateral damage is tragic but we do not target children to murder in cold blood.
Click to expand...
At times we have though. And we certainly have supported and paid others who have. It's not our normal MO, but we have done it.
 
AAABatteries said:
I don't follow most of these threads closely because it's depressing and quite frankly there's nothing I can do about the situation. I have a couple of questions.

1. Can the people who live in these regions freely move to another part of the world (ignoring cost, immigration, etc) - can they just leave?

2. If the answer is yes, why don't they or are we seeing people move and we don't hear about it?

It impossible to know what their lives are like but I can't imagine a scenario where something like this happens near me or in my country and not moving far, far away.
Click to expand...
When the Taliban first took over the government of Afghaniatan, hundreds of thousands of people left. Few countries were willing to take them. The United States was begged to change its immigration policies. As always we refused.
 
AAABatteries said:
I don't follow most of these threads closely because it's depressing and quite frankly there's nothing I can do about the situation. I have a couple of questions.

1. Can the people who live in these regions freely move to another part of the world (ignoring cost, immigration, etc) - can they just leave?

2. If the answer is yes, why don't they or are we seeing people move and we don't hear about it?

It impossible to know what their lives are like but I can't imagine a scenario where something like this happens near me or in my country and not moving far, far away.
Click to expand...
I'm sure if cost and immigration wasn't an issue, many people would up and move. However many older generations wouldn't. It's their country and they are too "old" so to speak, not technically necessarily, to start all over again in another country even if it the US where it's the best place to be. You also have to reconcile the fact that if you do leave, you will most likely never be able to go back and while we see it as that's great, what's the problem, they don't. My family who live here, the men can't go even visit if they were in Iran during the time when it was mandatory to enter the military, which was for a couple years or so. They didn't serve in the military and are highly educated, which is a big loss for them, so if they do go back- they could be thrown in prison. In fact I have a second cousin who went through this, and he did 0 wrong. Took 2 years for them to release him. The laws over there can change daily. Much better nowdays but just a few years ago, you just didn't know for sure what the laws were at times.

 
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timschochet said:
AAABatteries said:
I don't follow most of these threads closely because it's depressing and quite frankly there's nothing I can do about the situation. I have a couple of questions.

1. Can the people who live in these regions freely move to another part of the world (ignoring cost, immigration, etc) - can they just leave?

2. If the answer is yes, why don't they or are we seeing people move and we don't hear about it?

It impossible to know what their lives are like but I can't imagine a scenario where something like this happens near me or in my country and not moving far, far away.
Click to expand...
When the Taliban first took over the government of Afghaniatan, hundreds of thousands of people left. Few countries were willing to take them. The United States was begged to change its immigration policies. As always we refused.
Click to expand...
Where did those people end up?

 
AAABatteries said:
timschochet said:
AAABatteries said:
I don't follow most of these threads closely because it's depressing and quite frankly there's nothing I can do about the situation. I have a couple of questions.

1. Can the people who live in these regions freely move to another part of the world (ignoring cost, immigration, etc) - can they just leave?

2. If the answer is yes, why don't they or are we seeing people move and we don't hear about it?

It impossible to know what their lives are like but I can't imagine a scenario where something like this happens near me or in my country and not moving far, far away.
Click to expand...
When the Taliban first took over the government of Afghaniatan, hundreds of thousands of people left. Few countries were willing to take them. The United States was begged to change its immigration policies. As always we refused.
Click to expand...
Where did those people end up?
Click to expand...
Some went back. Some became stateless citizens in Pakistan and Turkey. Some are living illegally in the USA and other western countries.
 
Kind of a side question I guess, but if this is a military school, how does it get over taken by six guys? One would assume the adults there are military trained, no? I would have to assume a military school would have weapons.

 
Cjw_55106 said:
Kind of a side question I guess, but if this is a military school, how does it get over taken by six guys? One would assume the adults there are military trained, no? I would have to assume a military school would have weapons.
Click to expand...
I don't know any of the particulars in this case, but being a "military school" does not necessarily mean it is training kids to be in the military - it can simply be a school that teaches kids of military families. I went to a couple of those when my dad was stationed overseas.

Not to mention, if you are not trained to react to a violent invasion, you are probably not prepared when it happens. Sadly its why my kids go through "lock-down" drills today.

 
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Cjw_55106 said:
Kind of a side question I guess, but if this is a military school, how does it get over taken by six guys? One would assume the adults there are military trained, no? I would have to assume a military school would have weapons.
Click to expand...
didn't you see Taps?

 
Sinn Fein said:
Cjw_55106 said:
Kind of a side question I guess, but if this is a military school, how does it get over taken by six guys? One would assume the adults there are military trained, no? I would have to assume a military school would have weapons.
Click to expand...
I don't know any of the particulars in this case, but being a "military school" does not necessarily mean it is training kids to be in the military - it can simply be a school that teaches kids of military families. I went to a couple of those when my dad was stationed overseas.

Not to mention, if you are not trained to react to a violent invasion, you are probably not prepared when it happens. Sadly its why my kids go through "lock-down" drills today.
Click to expand...
Yeah it was just a school where military people sent their kids.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
They gunned them down, children, like slaughter.

How does this not get put down as pure evil? Can anyone really speak of it as anything else?

We're uncomfortable with it but this has been the great moral and ideological struggle of our time, since at least September 11, 2001.

It continues.
Click to expand...
Preface to say it IS pure evil.

How do they justify it?

Those children grow up to be adult enemy combatants, by killing them now you are killing the enemy in their nest before they have grown to the point of being able to attack you. They are not bound by morality, they are driven by hatred and self preservation through the destruction of all that does not align itself with their ideology. This does not justify their actions, but I am sure that is what drives them in a no holds barred war.

 
There's actually a more practical way to justify it.

Terrorism is mainly used by those who wish to win a war or military struggle but lack the conventional means to do so. So if you have no superior army to crush your enemy, you crush them mentally instead. You commit such horrific acts that it becomes unpalatable for them to continue. And it's at very little cost: you only need a few idealists willing to die for the cause, rather than a large army.

The typical reaction of your enemy also helps you. Because what they usually do, after recoiling from the horror, is take a hard line response which ends up killing some innocents along the way. This in turn creates animosity for them and strengthens sympathy for you, making you stronger.

Is this ultimately effective? It has been in certain situations. Other times it has failed. But I'm quite sure a leader of the Taliban would argue that it's simply a form of warfare, no less moral or immoral than dropping a nuclear bomb on Hiroshima.

 
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