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Drones (1 Viewer)

Tau837

Tau837

Footballguy
This was posted in the Jimmy Carter-Obama thread, and I thought it deserved a thread of its own.

Gr00vus said:
timschochet said:
Fennis said:
As for drones, Carter told the Fort Worth newspaper: "I really object to the killing of people, particularly Americans overseas who haven't been brought to justice and put on trial. We've killed four Americans overseas with American drones. To me that violates our Constitution and human rights.
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Amen Jimmy Carter
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For decades following World War II, this country had critics like Daniel Ellsberg tell us that there was no such thing as "strategic bombing" because far too many innocent people were killed every time. Ellsberg, Chomsky, and others who made this criticism were considered radicals and their views were rarely reported in the mainstream news, except during the latter half of the Vietnam War. It's a legitimate argument, but it's also a pacifist argument, and anyone who made it has to be opposed to all warfare in order to be consistent, since there is no way to engage in modern industrial warfare without killing innocent people.

Now we have drones which are far more specific than any other previous weapon, so much so that their existence really does make "strategic bombing" a reality for the first time ever. There is no question that they save much more lives than any previous attempt at bombing. (And not incidentally, they also save the lives of our service men and women because they can be fired with accuracy from anywhere without risk from those who use them.) But ironically, the use of these weapons, perhaps because they target individuals so precisely, are condemned much more loudly than strategic bombing ever was. Now if you were a pacifist all along, like an Ellsberg or Chomsky, then It's perfectly fine for you to criticize the use of these weapons. But for someone like Carter who had no problem using bombs that were much more indiscriminate, I call that hypocrisy.

The issue of some of the targets being American citizens is different, and a bit more troubling (at least to me). But if they have chosen to embrace radical terrorism against the United States, then they should IMO be regarded as enemy combatants in time of war, and are therefore subject to be killed if our government deems it necessary.
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The technology is capable of targeting individuals precisely. A problem most of us "pacifists" are very concerned about is that the people directing the drones don't really seem to be doing due diligence in verifying that the individuals the drones precisely target are actually dangerous in some way. And of course there's the whole violation of due process, etc. as well, but you waffle on that one day to the next, so I don't know if that's an important issue for you today.
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From Drones spare troops, have powerful impact:

...it is a myth that drones disproportionately kill civilians. After a review of the deaths inflicted by American drones since 2004, the Pakistani Defense Ministry concluded that citizen fatalities occurred at a rate of 3 percent of total kills — a total of 67 innocent civilians.

During the Gulf War, without drones, U.S. Air Force fighter jets demolished the Amiriyah bomb shelter, and killed more than 400 Iraqi women and children, in one incident alone.

We owe it to the innocent civilians of foreign territories to inflict as little destruction as possible.

...

Drones deserve a place in liberal advocacy. Drones spare the United States from sending troops into warfare, when they could return broken, scarred, or in a coffin; prevent needless deaths of innocent civilians abroad; and save American lives. Are these not liberal tenets?
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Thoughts?
 
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I'm absolutely horrified and disgusted we've actively targeted and killed American citizens without giving them due process.

And our options expand beyond sending in troops or drones.

 
Tim is an idiot to believe that our government is actually strategically bombing specific threats to the US. Not sure why that is worthy of a thread.

 
Saying only a 3% civilian casualty rate is misleading.

For one, casualty counts are often very liberal when it comes to counting any dead male as a terrorist.

Two, other results show about double that rate. Amnesty International and other independent organizations have been at complete odds with the 3% findings.

Three, if it's really that low, our government should start releasing some official numbers. To my knowledge they have continued to dodge this aspect.

Four, injuries and deaths aren't the same. Can't find solid numbers, but estimates I've found show we've injured/maimed at least 1,000 civilians (very conservative estimates).

Lastly, there's the element of terrorizing an entire nation of civilians that does loads of damage beyond simply counting piled up bodies.

 
Just Win Baby said:
We owe it to the innocent civilians of foreign territories to inflict as little destruction as possible.
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...and we accomplish this by bombing the crap out of them?

Drones deserve a place in liberal advocacy. Drones spare the United States from sending troops into warfare, when they could return broken, scarred, or in a coffin; prevent needless deaths of innocent civilians abroad; and save American lives. Are these not liberal tenets?
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You know what else spares the United States from sending troops into warfare, when they could return broken, scarred, or in a coffin? Not sending troops into warfare.

 
So for all those who are posting against use of drones, you seem to really be advocating that we avoid the warfare actions we are taking altogether. I think that stance is impractical and unrealistic based on the history of our country and conflict.

There is going to be warfare. Always has been, always will be.

Given that, the use of drones greatly reduces harm to our troops, including friendly fire harm (see the article I posted), and greatly reduces unintended harm to civilians. It is also very cost effective compared to alternative approaches.

 
Just Win Baby said:
So for all those who are posting against use of drones, you seem to really be advocating that we avoid the warfare actions we are taking altogether. I think that stance is impractical and unrealistic based on the history of our country and conflict.

There is going to be warfare. Always has been, always will be.

Given that, the use of drones greatly reduces harm to our troops, including friendly fire harm (see the article I posted), and greatly reduces unintended harm to civilians. It is also very cost effective compared to alternative approaches.
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:yes:

 
Just Win Baby said:
So for all those who are posting against use of drones, you seem to really be advocating that we avoid the warfare actions we are taking altogether. I think that stance is impractical and unrealistic based on the history of our country and conflict.

There is going to be warfare. Always has been, always will be.

Given that, the use of drones greatly reduces harm to our troops, including friendly fire harm (see the article I posted), and greatly reduces unintended harm to civilians. It is also very cost effective compared to alternative approaches.
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I do advocate that we avoid the terrorism actions we are taking in Pakistan and Yemen altogether, yeah.

 
Slapdash said:
Just Win Baby said:
So for all those who are posting against use of drones, you seem to really be advocating that we avoid the warfare actions we are taking altogether. I think that stance is impractical and unrealistic based on the history of our country and conflict.

There is going to be warfare. Always has been, always will be.

Given that, the use of drones greatly reduces harm to our troops, including friendly fire harm (see the article I posted), and greatly reduces unintended harm to civilians. It is also very cost effective compared to alternative approaches.
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I do advocate that we avoid the terrorism actions we are taking in Pakistan and Yemen altogether, yeah.
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That's unrealistic. We need to keep killing middle eastern people, it's just a debate of how to kill them at this point.
 
Slapdash said:
Tim is an idiot to believe that our government is actually strategically bombing specific threats to the US. Not sure why that is worthy of a thread.
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I thought this is exactly what the drone program is for. Can I get a cliifs version of what the drones are doing otherwise? I apologize if you were being sarcastic and I didn't catch it.

 
Never mind slapdash, I see you were referencing the collateral damage of the drone strikes, not the actual target. I think. I'm just gonna head back over to the yoga thread.

 
The US counts any male old enough to carry a rifle as an insurgent. The US has targeted weddings, funerals and people who came to help after a drone attack. All of these are war crimes. Americans like drones because they can pretend their country is being surgical and everything is done so precisely. No muss, no fuss. Nothing could be further from the truth. Further killing American citizens on order of the President with no due process is assassination not war and IMO is even worse than the other war crimes I mentioned. We have terrorized an entire country with these devices. And we will pay for it down the line. Then some schmuck will claim the blowback is because these people are so violent and backward. Not because we indiscriminately killed their children and loved ones. We are creating a whole new crop of America hating jihadists and we will certainly regret it.

 
NCCommish said:
The US counts any male old enough to carry a rifle as an insurgent. The US has targeted weddings, funerals and people who came to help after a drone attack. All of these are war crimes. Americans like drones because they can pretend their country is being surgical and everything is done so precisely. No muss, no fuss. Nothing could be further from the truth. Further killing American citizens on order of the President with no due process is assassination not war and IMO is even worse than the other war crimes I mentioned. We have terrorized an entire country with these devices. And we will pay for it down the line. Then some schmuck will claim the blowback is because these people are so violent and backward. Not because we indiscriminately killed their children and loved ones. We are creating a whole new crop of America hating jihadists and we will certainly regret it.
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Hey GB, check your PM's

 
Mr.Pack said:
NCCommish said:
The US counts any male old enough to carry a rifle as an insurgent. The US has targeted weddings, funerals and people who came to help after a drone attack. All of these are war crimes. Americans like drones because they can pretend their country is being surgical and everything is done so precisely. No muss, no fuss. Nothing could be further from the truth. Further killing American citizens on order of the President with no due process is assassination not war and IMO is even worse than the other war crimes I mentioned. We have terrorized an entire country with these devices. And we will pay for it down the line. Then some schmuck will claim the blowback is because these people are so violent and backward. Not because we indiscriminately killed their children and loved ones. We are creating a whole new crop of America hating jihadists and we will certainly regret it.
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Hey GB, check your PM's
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On it.

 
NCCommish said:
The US counts any male old enough to carry a rifle as an insurgent. The US has targeted weddings, funerals and people who came to help after a drone attack. All of these are war crimes. Americans like drones because they can pretend their country is being surgical and everything is done so precisely. No muss, no fuss. Nothing could be further from the truth. Further killing American citizens on order of the President with no due process is assassination not war and IMO is even worse than the other war crimes I mentioned. We have terrorized an entire country with these devices. And we will pay for it down the line. Then some schmuck will claim the blowback is because these people are so violent and backward. Not because we indiscriminately killed their children and loved ones. We are creating a whole new crop of America hating jihadists and we will certainly regret it.
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Had no idea. How come this isn't front page news on every paper/magazine in this country?

 
chauncey said:
NCCommish said:
The US counts any male old enough to carry a rifle as an insurgent. The US has targeted weddings, funerals and people who came to help after a drone attack. All of these are war crimes. Americans like drones because they can pretend their country is being surgical and everything is done so precisely. No muss, no fuss. Nothing could be further from the truth. Further killing American citizens on order of the President with no due process is assassination not war and IMO is even worse than the other war crimes I mentioned. We have terrorized an entire country with these devices. And we will pay for it down the line. Then some schmuck will claim the blowback is because these people are so violent and backward. Not because we indiscriminately killed their children and loved ones. We are creating a whole new crop of America hating jihadists and we will certainly regret it.
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Had no idea. How come this isn't front page news on every paper/magazine in this country?
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Really? It's pretty old news. It's been going on like this for awhile.
 
chauncey said:
NCCommish said:
The US counts any male old enough to carry a rifle as an insurgent. The US has targeted weddings, funerals and people who came to help after a drone attack. All of these are war crimes. Americans like drones because they can pretend their country is being surgical and everything is done so precisely. No muss, no fuss. Nothing could be further from the truth. Further killing American citizens on order of the President with no due process is assassination not war and IMO is even worse than the other war crimes I mentioned. We have terrorized an entire country with these devices. And we will pay for it down the line. Then some schmuck will claim the blowback is because these people are so violent and backward. Not because we indiscriminately killed their children and loved ones. We are creating a whole new crop of America hating jihadists and we will certainly regret it.
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Had no idea. How come this isn't front page news on every paper/magazine in this country?
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Because the media is filled with lap dog stenographers who are more concerned with access and getting into the best parties than they are in holding anyone accountable for anything.

 
I don't like the idea of drones for all of the ways they are being used we DON'T know about.

 
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The White House said Friday that somewhere between 64 and 116 civilians had been wrongly killed in 473 drone strikes launched by CIA and U.S. military special operators between Jan. 20, 2009, when Obama was inaugurated, and Dec. 31 of last year.

Those strikes killed between 2,372 and 2,581 militants, officials said.

Link
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To put those numbers in persective:

Casualties


A dossier released by Iraq Body Count, a project of the U.K. non-governmental non-violent and disarmament organization Oxford Research Group, attributed approximately 6,616 civilian deaths to the actions of U.S.-led forces during the "invasion phase", including the shock-and-awe bombing campaign on Baghdad.[18]
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Obviously zero deaths is ideal but the drone program saves American lives and allows us to hit specific targets more accurately and minimize civilian deaths.

 
It is important to note that the strikes referenced in the White House report were outside of war zones. From the Washington Times:

The estimate is believed to cover drone strikes in Pakistan, Yemen, Libya and Somalia. It does not cover drone strikes in Afghanistan, Iraq or Syria, where U.S. forces have conducted thousands of air attacks.
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