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DFS general strategy thread (1 Viewer)

Maurile Tremblay

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Right now we've got tidbits of general strategy discussion spread throughout each of the weekly FanDuel/DraftKings threads.

I think it makes sense to have a dedicated repository of overall strategy in its own thread.

Feel free to copy/paste stuff from the other threads here, and to start new discussions regarding DFS strategy.

 
I've got sort of a strategy guide for cash games and tournaments on the interactive value charts, in case you haven't seen those yet.

There are a few errors I need to correct. For example, I say that you can reduce volatility (which is useful in cash games) by starting a QB and RB from the same NFL team. That appears to be incorrect -- I've been persuaded that a QB-RB pairing has no discernible effect on volatility. But in general I think the strategy guide there is a decent introduction to the topics it covers.

 
I'm not sure if this has been discussed before but in my experience the most important position is defense. Salary variance for top vs bottom defense is usually at most $1000 but fantasy production wise for very little investment, the top defense can win your cash game. In GPPs, I find that if you don't have the top (1-3) defenses, it's impossible to score in the top 1%, especially on weeks when the top defense outscore the second defense by 10+ points, which seems to happen more often than not. I hate the defense position in general because it's impossible to predict defensive touchdowns, but I don't see it going away any time soon. Therefore, my weekly analysis always begins with defenses so I can pick the top 3. I find that it's the one position you don't want to skimp on salary wise.

This leads me to my second point and that is the most effective stack that's been working for me is the defense/RB stack. If you're right about the defense, the RB is going to perform well as well.

 
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Salary variance for top vs bottom defense is usually at most $1000 ...
This differs from site to site. It's very much true for FanDuel, noticeably less true for DraftKings, not at all true for DraftDay, etc.

 
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What has worked for me is this strategy.

Get into my 30 dollars worth of GPP

Get into my 50 or 60 dollars worth of double ups.

Look at the over/under for the games and find 4 or 5 games with high over/unders.

Really think about the game, don't be concerned who will win, but what teams will score and how they will score. Think about how the game will go. Look at the previous 3 games for the team.

Then start building your teams around that.

I usually do 2 lineups on my 5050. Then I throw both of those lineups into my GPP, nithing worse than scoring 170+ on these lineups and only winning 9 or 18 dollars.

. Then I usually try to stack 2 other GPP lineups on 2 teams. Like last week I stacked the Steeler and Saints in one and it paid off.

Then I do one GPP that has a mixture of my favorite 4 or 5 plays plugged into fan duel interactive on this site with Dodds. My last GPP is mostly guys off my radar, this way if I am wrong about everything all week then maybe this lineup has a chance.

I am sure I am making many mistakes, but it has worked for me the last 2 years, the only years I have done daily.

 
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I usually do 2 lineups on my 5050. Then I throw both of those lineups into my GPP, nithing worse than scoring 170+ on these lineups and only winning 9 or 18 dollars.
We can't repeat this strategy enough. Even if it is only a $1 or $2 GPP, make sure you are getting your 50/50 lineups into GPP or you will be kicking yourself.

 
OK, there is the obvious stuff I'll get out of the way.

1. Don't create line-ups with opposing running backs. Running backs tend do better when their team wins, limits the upside of the roster.

2. Don't put defenses in your roster when you have an opposing player against that defense. Again, limits the upside.

now some other stuff.

3. I like to go for RBs in the high 8000+ range (exception would be CJ Anderson this week), and generally steer clear of RBs in the 7000 range and stick to the 6000 range instead. Examples this week would be Herron, FJax, Crowell). Examples in the 7000 range I'll avoid this week are Forsett, Ingram, Mason, and Jennings.

4. I like to go for QBs that are either really cheap or really pricy, generally speaking. Examples this week are Rodgers, Bortles, Hill, Brees, & Hoyer (esp. if Vontae Davis is out)

5. Generally, I really like to pay up for WRs in the 8000-8500 range, and I generally don't see a huge difference between WRs in the 6000-6400 range and those priced 1000 higher. I generally stay away from the 5000 range completely. Examples this week: ODB, Gordon, Stills, Colston, Cobb, Woods, Bailey, etc.

6. Tight ends. No idea. If you don't go for Gronk or Graham it's basically a crap-shoot. I guess you want to look for upside in the player (Reed, Rudolph, etc), targets, how you think the game-flow will be, etc. For example, Colt McCoy loves his tight ends, will have to pass against the Rams to stay in it, etc.

 
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I am not mocking you at all, it works for you and that is great. I never write off a player, especially because of price range I don't like. My first year doing daily I had a tendency to put a guy on my "do not draft list" last year if they burned me. Each week is different, last week I used Big Ben and was rewarded, but he burned me week 6 against the Browns.

 
I am not mocking you at all, it works for you and that is great. I never write off a player, especially because of price range I don't like. My first year doing daily I had a tendency to put a guy on my "do not draft list" last year if they burned me. Each week is different, last week I used Big Ben and was rewarded, but he burned me week 6 against the Browns.
They are just very general guidelines. I don't follow them myself if something stands out. For example, I really like Tannehill and Landry this week, should be a great stack. Same goes for Dalton/Green, and Rivers/Gates.

 
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Great thread. Questions I have:

1. Bankroll management. What percentage of bankroll do people wager every week, and why? And how (what percentage go into GPP, etc.)?

2. What does the math say about the contests? Are the big GPPs sucker bets? If you are in this to make money, are you doing double up mostly? I feel like I am missing some research by some mathmagenius that is telling me which contests make more sense, and are the best bang for the buck.

3. What are people's strategies for player disbersement--meaning: If you love a guy, what percentage of your lineups is that player in? I'm having a tough time coming up with a formula for deciding how many lineups have certain players. Half? 60%?

4. Big dollar WR vs RB vs QB. Where do people feel more comfortable placing their dollars? I have found that I really enjoy trying to build teams both ways, with bargain RB and stud WR, and vice versa.

5. Anyone ever put together two or three lineups they love, and just enter them a bunch, while swapping out different K and D? I kinda wanna do this one week.

 
There is alot of great information and posts in all the weekly threads from John Lee, Maurice (lol), ETC ETC that I wish could be brought here. Here's a link from today that sparked some good discussion on topics that will be highly analyzed here. Karma, ATO and others then started discussing how useful it would be to have average winning score in this table.

David Dodds, on 04 Dec 2014 - 02:56 AM, said:

2014 FanDuel Cash Game Results Summarized

http://50percentds.b...me-results.html
 
Great thread. Questions I have:

1. Bankroll management. What percentage of bankroll do people wager every week, and why? And how (what percentage go into GPP, etc.)?

2. What does the math say about the contests? Are the big GPPs sucker bets? If you are in this to make money, are you doing double up mostly? I feel like I am missing some research by some mathmagenius that is telling me which contests make more sense, and are the best bang for the buck.

3. What are people's strategies for player disbersement--meaning: If you love a guy, what percentage of your lineups is that player in? I'm having a tough time coming up with a formula for deciding how many lineups have certain players. Half? 60%?

4. Big dollar WR vs RB vs QB. Where do people feel more comfortable placing their dollars? I have found that I really enjoy trying to build teams both ways, with bargain RB and stud WR, and vice versa.

5. Anyone ever put together two or three lineups they love, and just enter them a bunch, while swapping out different K and D? I kinda wanna do this one week.
These are all really good questions.

The first one is a real doozy because it depends on so many different factors. I personally play nearly 100% of my "bankroll" every week, where "bankroll" means the amount of money I currently have in my DFS accounts. But I have to put "bankroll" in quotes because that's not my real bankroll. If I go broke on any given DFS site (or even all of them at once), I can add more to them. In gambling parlance, one's "bankroll" is generally taken to mean the amount one has available to wager, such that if a person loses his bankroll, he will be out of action until he gets a paycheck from somewhere else (or a loan). For most people here playing daily games as a hobby, we probably haven't even figured out what our bankrolls in that sense really are. So it's impossible to say what percentage of them we are playing each week.

In any case, the percentage of your bankroll that you should be willing to put into play each week depends on a ton of different factors that will be different for everybody. Holding other things equal, you can play a larger percentage of your bankroll if your expectation is higher. (I.e., if you can reasonably expect to earn a 20% profit on your wagers, you can bet more of your bankroll than if you can reasonably expect to earn only a 10% profit on your wagers.) You can also bet a larger percentage of your bankroll if your variance is lower. For example, you can bet a larger percentage of your bankroll each week if you're playing 50 different H2H contests than if you're playing only a single 50/50 -- and you can bet a larger percentage of your bankroll if you're playing a single 50/50 than if you're playing a single GPP.

This is all just hand-waving without any concrete answers. To get concrete answers, we'd need to quantify your expected rate of return, quantify your variance based on the types of contests you enter (weighted by betting volume), and pick a given "risk of ruin" that you can live with. And each of those steps is pretty complicated (except for choosing an acceptable risk of ruin), so unfortunately there are no set guidelines that apply to everybody.

I do expect there to be a chapter in the FBG DFS book on this topic including some examples with sample calculations . . .

 
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3. What are people's strategies for player disbersement--meaning: If you love a guy, what percentage of your lineups is that player in? I'm having a tough time coming up with a formula for deciding how many lineups have certain players. Half? 60%?
You can use the Kelly Criterion for this.

More casually, if you expect Player A to have an 80% chance of being a better deal (as measured, say, by actual points scored per dollar) than Player B, you should invest four times as much in Player A as in Player B. That could mean putting Player A in four times as many lineups as Player B if you're betting the same amount on each lineup, or it could mean putting them in an equal number of lineups if you're betting four times as much on the contests featuring your Player A lineups.

I don't know anybody who actually keeps track of that very rigorously, but maybe some people do.

 
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2. What does the math say about the contests? Are the big GPPs sucker bets? If you are in this to make money, are you doing double up mostly? I feel like I am missing some research by some mathmagenius that is telling me which contests make more sense, and are the best bang for the buck.
Trying to play against unskilled opponents rather than skilled opponents is pretty important if you can help it.

Other than that, generally the bigger contests are better if you're an above-average player. I'll quote myself from the Week 14 thread:

Other things equal, you want your teams to constitute the smallest percentage of the total action possible (above zero, of course). You can see this by considering a reductio ad absurdum in which we enter ten entries into a ten-team 50/50, such that we constitute 100% of the action. In that case, all we're doing is paying the rake. We can't possibly make a profit.

It's a matter of semantics whether we call this an effect of the rake or something else -- but either way, if you're an above-average player, and if we hold the quality of your opponents constant, you're better off playing in a 100-team contest than in a 10-team contest, and your're better off playing in a 10-team contest than in a H2H contest. Jeff Pasquino shows you the math here, but an easy way to think about it is that in a 100-team contest, a full 99% of the teams constitute "the field," which you're expected to have an advantage over. In a 10-team contest, only 90% of the teams constitute "the field." Playing in a 10-team contest is a bit like entering ten identical teams in a 100-team contest -- in which case each of your teams is facing itself nine times, which is a tough matchup and makes it harder to beat the rake.

Aside from that, note what I said before about being able to bet a larger percentage of your bankroll if you enter low-variance contests than if you enter high-variance contests. 50-50s are lower-variance than GPPs. The more money you bet, the more you can expect to earn. So 50-50s appear to be better than GPPs in this respect. This is complicated, however, by the fact that you can reduce variance in either 50-50s or GPPs by diversifying your lineups. But in doing so, you are generally sacrificing some EV because your tenth lineup probably won't be as awesome as your first lineup -- and this sacrifice tends to have a larger effect in 50/50s than in tournaments. If you are diversifying your lineups appropriately, I personally think you can enter a lot of GPPs with a similar expectation and variance as if you enter a lot of 50/50s -- but that's just a gut feeling, as I haven't actually worked out the math for that proposition.

In any case, I would not consider GPPs to be sucker bets at all. Just keep in mind that it's easy to lose a bunch of them in a row, so you have to either diversify your lineups intelligently, or just commit a relatively small portion of your bankroll to them.

 
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4. Big dollar WR vs RB vs QB. Where do people feel more comfortable placing their dollars? I have found that I really enjoy trying to build teams both ways, with bargain RB and stud WR, and vice versa.
I think the main thing in both cash games and tournaments is to get players who are great values -- players who are expected to score a lot of points relative to their salaries.

But as a minor consideration, one that can work as a tie-breaker, I would spend more on QBs in cash games, and more on RBs and (especially) WRs and TEs in tournaments. (I'd also be more likely to go for cheap PKs and TDs in tournaments.)

That's because WRs, TEs, and (to a slightly lesser extent) RBs tend to have lower floors and higher ceilings than QBs relative to their projections and prices. Andrew Luck is less likely than DeMarco Murray to put up a very low score. (I'm actually not sure about Andrew Luck versus DeMarco Murray in particular -- but the top-ranked QBs in general are less likely to tank than the top-ranked RBs in general.) That makes heavy investment in QBs a good strategy for cash games. The opposite would be true for GPPs, where you don't mind taking a chance that a player will tank as long as his upside potential makes it worthwhile -- and in general, the top WRs and TEs have a greater chance than the top QBs to far exceed their projections.

 
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1 thing I cannot stress enough, is to play with your lineup. At the beginning of the week you may come up with something that on paper looks good, then as the week progresses you think it through a little more and come up with new options and ways to tinker with it. Like for example: I set a lineup on Tuesday and now today I'm thinking Andre Williams looks like a great play now that Jennings hasn't practiced 2 days ina row. Things like that, then tweak the rest of your lineup with the extra cash you have to spend on possibly better guys because of this savings (It's an extra $900 on fanduel this week). Alfred Blue is another possible example. Houston is expected to go up early and Foster is hurt so Blue either a. gets the lion share of the carries for a cheap $5200, or b. plays the hedging role for the coaches so they dont hurt Foster more. Either way he is likely to get more work for the week now that Foster's status is up in the air.

It comes down to who you feel comfortable with and the type of game you chose. GPP's you're swinging for the fences, 50/50's you're looking at creating the highest floor possible. Stuff like that. Hopefully this helps someone, cause I know it took me what seems like a while to get a decent grasp on how to handle daily games.

 
I'd love to see some research (or even a definitive voice) on when you should start diversifying your lineups. For example, I normally try to pick one solid lineup for cash games that gets the majority of my play (let's say around 20 contests in 50/50's and/or double-ups plus a handful of H2H), then I'll enter that lineup and a few others in GPP's.

I feel like I should enter what I think is my best lineup in the cash games each week, and just hope I win more weeks than I lose, but with football only having limited weeks (as opposed to MLB or NBA on a daily basis -- which I'm new to NBA but know I have a winning system for MLB than I can grind out over several months -- and while I think I have a winning system for football with only 17 weeks plus playoffs if anyone hits a bad stretch you don't have many chances to get back to even) variance seems to be more of a factor for NFL contests as well. Do most of you agree? Otherwise, instead of entering my same lineup 10-20x, should I try to make that many good lineups instead and enter each one once?

Maybe since the NFL has a reduced number of opportunities as compared to say MLB, I should drastically increase my play per week but also drastically increase the diversification? At the same time you can't go too crazy with diversification due to the rake, but do you just accept that NFL may have higher variance from year to year, or is there a better way? Just as a comparison, if you know you have a winning system but hit a losing streak in the NFL, the season is pretty much over, but say you had bad luck in MLB and started off with a 10 game losing streak it would still be early April and you would still have 5-6 months of daily games to reach expectation. Maybe the NFL is just go big or go home?

 
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Why do people make posts like this in every DFS thread (this one and the weekly ones) as well as the people who just post a single period?

Is it just so they can conveniently see when new posts are made to a thread they want to leech off of without ever contributing, or am I missing out on some type of recent trend? I really don't think posts like these should be allowed if someone does not have anything to contribute, as there is a subscribe/follow option.

 
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Why do people make posts like this in every DFS thread (this one and the weekly ones) as well as the people who just post a single period?

Is it just so they can conveniently see when new posts are made to a thread they want to leech off of without ever contributing, or am I missing out on some type of recent trend? I really don't think posts like these should be allowed if someone does not have anything to contribute, as there is a subscribe/follow option.
This. And your whopping 951 total posts does nothing to further your argument here. We (seahawk and I) contribute plenty. If you can't overlook a blackdot post, I won't overlook your complaint about them.

:offmysoapbox:

 
Why do people make posts like this in every DFS thread (this one and the weekly ones) as well as the people who just post a single period?

Is it just so they can conveniently see when new posts are made to a thread they want to leech off of without ever contributing, or am I missing out on some type of recent trend? I really don't think posts like these should be allowed if someone does not have anything to contribute, as there is a subscribe/follow option.
it may be that possibly we are at work at the time we saw the thread and did not have time to post our thoughts to try to help someone else out or have the time to read the thread so we want to mark it so we can quickly find it at a later time.

And so I don't get away from the point of this thread, I will put this nice little gem from Maurile from last weeks thread:

Maurile Tremblay, on 29 Nov 2014 - 12:02 AM, said:

You may have noticed on the value charts that I added another view, called H-value. (H because it was Dan Hindery who got me thinking in this direction.)

When you sort by value (i.e., points per dollar), you'll find some guys at the top of the list who are great deals in terms of points per dollar, but they're not all that likely to end up in an optimal-type lineup because they don't score enough points. H-value puts more emphasis on higher-scoring players, and gives you a truer picture of genuine value.

If you go to the DraftKings chart and sort WRs by value, for example, the top eight guys are currently Marquise Lee, John Brown, Robert Woods, Malcom Floyd, Michael Floyd, Harry Douglas, Steadman Baily, and Eddie Royal.

Sort by H-value instead and the top eight are Odell Beckham Jr, Antonio Brown, A.J. Green, Randall Cobb, John Brown, Demaryius Thomas, Jordy Nelson, and Reggie Wayne.

When you play around with the optimizer to find the highest-scoring lineups possible, the guys on that second list are much more likely to be included.

My old strategy was to sort by value and then look for guys toward the top of the list with relatively high salaries. A more convenient strategy is to sort by H-value and just look for the guys at the top of the list. It's a one-step process instead of a two-step process.

I've also sorted the Top 20 stacks by H-value, and modified the Top 20 stacks so that only players from the group of games you're looking at are shown. So if you have it set to "Sun-Mon," Thursday players are no longer shown. If you have it set to "Sun 4pm," only players in the 4pm games are shown. And so on.
 
Thanks, always nice to read a post from MT, to remind me of my terrible math score from the SAT in high school.

 
Why do people make posts like this in every DFS thread (this one and the weekly ones) as well as the people who just post a single period?

Is it just so they can conveniently see when new posts are made to a thread they want to leech off of without ever contributing, or am I missing out on some type of recent trend? I really don't think posts like these should be allowed if someone does not have anything to contribute, as there is a subscribe/follow option.
Nobody here views it as leeching. You're going to have people reading this information without maybe ever making a single comment or contribution. That's just the nature of a messageboard. If you feel that you want to share information that shouldn't be free, there are plenty of boards that require paid memberships.

 
3. What are people's strategies for player disbersement--meaning: If you love a guy, what percentage of your lineups is that player in? I'm having a tough time coming up with a formula for deciding how many lineups have certain players. Half? 60%?
For me, this depends on the player's salary. Last week, for example, I had Tre Mason in literally 90% of my lineups. Stills was probably in 85%. That wasn't because I "knew" they were going off, it was because they were so cheap. At the end of the day, I don't have to be exactly right about a $5200 player I like in my cash games -- if I squeeze 11 out of him I'm ok. Even 8 points Isnt going to be fatal.

On the other extreme, I have difficulty pushing all in on a $8000+ player. In that situation, I have to be a LOT closer to right to come out OK. Once you have 13+% invested in 1 guy, you really can't afford to be wrong. In those situations I hedge quite a bit.

I'm also a little more comfortable running QBs out there in a lot of my entries, regardless of salary. They tend to be a bit less volatile than RB, WR, and TE.*

* There is no such thing as a "lock" at TE, and anyone who says otherwise is just delusional. Even Gronk and Graham are volatile as hell.

 
I really had no idea that this was such a big deal, and after doing some research last night I find the whole thing fascinating in the fact that a person can see how good they really are and you can get different players every week. So what's a good strategy for a brand new player?

According to many posts it sounds like I should do a low wager 50/50 and enter the same line up in tournament?

ETA: Do people prefer Draftkings or Fanduel?

 
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I really had no idea that this was such a big deal, and after doing some research last night I find the whole thing fascinating in the fact that a person can see how good they really are and you can get different players every week. So what's a good strategy for a brand new player?

According to many posts it sounds like I should do a low wager 50/50 and enter the same line up in tournament?

ETA: Do people prefer Draftkings or Fanduel?
I would start with low wager 50/50s and double ups. They are boring, but a good way to build your bankroll. Throw that same lineup in a $1-5 tourney (depending on how much you have) basically as a lottery ticket play in case your roster goes off.

I have only played on Fanduel so I can't help with your second question.

 
I really had no idea that this was such a big deal, and after doing some research last night I find the whole thing fascinating in the fact that a person can see how good they really are and you can get different players every week. So what's a good strategy for a brand new player?

According to many posts it sounds like I should do a low wager 50/50 and enter the same line up in tournament?

ETA: Do people prefer Draftkings or Fanduel?
One of the things that I am noticing is that my results at FD and DK almost always fade each other. This is baffling to me and I need to sit down and try to figure out why. I like Dk and not having a Kicker, but the site has had issues recently and that could be a problem. FD is reliable and I like their cash game market better than DK. I'm doing really well in Dk tourneys for some reason. I don't question it, I just keep it rolling.

 
3. What are people's strategies for player disbersement--meaning: If you love a guy, what percentage of your lineups is that player in? I'm having a tough time coming up with a formula for deciding how many lineups have certain players. Half? 60%?
For me, this depends on the player's salary. Last week, for example, I had Tre Mason in literally 90% of my lineups. Stills was probably in 85%. That wasn't because I "knew" they were going off, it was because they were so cheap. At the end of the day, I don't have to be exactly right about a $5200 player I like in my cash games -- if I squeeze 11 out of him I'm ok. Even 8 points Isnt going to be fatal.

On the other extreme, I have difficulty pushing all in on a $8000+ player. In that situation, I have to be a LOT closer to right to come out OK. Once you have 13+% invested in 1 guy, you really can't afford to be wrong. In those situations I hedge quite a bit.

I'm also a little more comfortable running QBs out there in a lot of my entries, regardless of salary. They tend to be a bit less volatile than RB, WR, and TE.*

* There is no such thing as a "lock" at TE, and anyone who says otherwise is just delusional. Even Gronk and Graham are volatile as hell.
Copy that. I really wasn't taking into account player salary.

 
Try to play against unskilled opponents rather than skilled opponents is pretty important if you can help it.

Other than that, generally the bigger contests are better if you're an above-average player. I'll quote myself from the Week 14 thread:

Other things equal, you want your teams to constitute the smallest percentage of the total action possible (above zero, of course). You can see this by considering a reductio ad absurdum in which we enter ten entries into a ten-team 50/50, such that we constitute 100% of the action. In that case, all we're doing is paying the rake. We can't possibly make a profit.

It's a matter of semantics whether we call this an effect of the rake or something else -- but either way, if you're an above-average player, and if we hold the quality of your opponents constant, you're better off playing in a 100-team contest than in a 10-team contest, and your're better off playing in a 10-team contest than in a H2H contest. Jeff Pasquino shows you the math here, but an easy way to think about it is that in a 100-team contest, a full 99% of the teams constitute "the field," which you're expected to have an advantage over. In a 10-team contest, only 90% of the teams constitute "the field." Playing in a 10-team contest is a bit like entering ten identical teams in a 100-team contest -- in which case each of your teams is facing itself nine times, which is a tough matchup and makes it harder to beat the rake.
The first statement is true, and honestly the single most important thing; if you want to win, play inferior opponents.

The second statement strikes me as intuitively true but I think the math you link is questionable. I'm too tired to prove it mathematically, but let me make a few points.

1) Jeff's math doesn't pass the smell test. If you have a 52% edge you will win a 10 person 50/50 56% of the time? Really? This sounds like the mathematical equivalent of alchemy. I think (again, too tired to debug fully) the problem is that Jeff is treating a 50/50 as a set of INDEPENDENT H2Hs, whereas of course they are not independent--your opponent's lineups are (somewhat) independent, but your line-up is the same throughout.

Put it this way, if I told you last week: "Take a random 100-man 50/50 I am in. Pull 5 random opponents in that 50/50. Suppose it turns out that i lost to all 5 of those opponents. Now pull a 6th random opponent. How likely do you think it is that I lost to that 6th opponent?" If you answered "way more likely than 50%" (and I hope you did!) you have just proven that they are not independent events.

2) There are actually two reasons that a large field is generally better from a pure winning percentage than a small field (not to say it's necessarily better from a long-term profitability standpoint, which is actually a more mathematically complex question due to issues related to kelly optimization and bankroll management).

a) The simplest and most important one: your opponents are worse. Look at a 10-man H2H roster sometime, particularly on the $25+ levels. It's all condia, makisupa etc. Those guys are not immortal but they are better than average.

b) The second reason is more subtle. Let's suppose that I am indeed better than average, i.e., in any given week, my expected score is 5 points better than the expected score of the FD population: E(me) = E(FD) + 5. And let's say that the expected average score of a given 50/50 is roughly equal to the expected score of FD as a whole, i.e., E(5050) = E(FD). That means that E(me) = E(5050) + 5.

If there were no variance, everything would be hunky dory and I would win every time. In fact, there are two types of variance that matter: variance in how much I beat the overall FD average, and variance in how the average in my 5050 differs from the overall FD average.

This framework lets us break down the disadvantages of a small 50/50 into a few different parts:

1) With a small 50/50, there is a lot of variance in how the 50/50 average differs from the global FD average. This variance hurts a good player (but helps a bad player...). For example, if the global FD average this week is 130, in a 100-man double up, you can be pretty sure that the cut-off will be ~128-132, but in a 10-man 50/50 it may be anywhere from 125-135. If my expected score is 135, I'd much rather have the 100-man double up.

2) With a small 50/50, my opponents are just better. This is hugely important. Look at who enters a 10-man $25 game on FD some time. It's all condia, makisupa etc.

 
OK. Cash games at Draftkings. They don't offer double-ups, but they do allow multi-entry 50/50's. Do you like using the multi-entries? I have 3 lineups spread into 2 multi-entry 50/50's. For some reason, it's making me nervous. Should I diversify?

 
Good article by Jeff Pasquino in this weeks daily grind:

DFS LESSON OF THE WEEK - MINDSETSThis week I wanted to talk about mindsets. What I mean by that is the frame of mind you should be in – or have to be in – in order to build the right type of DFS lineup. The mindset in building a cash game lineup (50/50, head-to-head, or 2x (“double up”)) is different than building a lineup for a GPP tournament. That is very important to understand, and it is something easily overlooked by newer DFS players. I still remember when I first started playing DFS, I would build teams for 50/50s and double ups as I knew that was a safer way to play as I was first dipping my toes in this uncharted water. When I would look back and see how I did some weeks, I started to notice that sometimes the lineups I built would be good enough and score high enough to land in the money zone for the big tournaments. That led me to believe that I should just go ahead and put that same lineup in tournaments on the chance I could “hit it big” and get an extra payout. By limiting the tournament play to just a few and much smaller amounts than my 50/50 and double-up play, I thought I was being smart about it and opening up some upside for my bankroll. Now I know that this approach – even though it seems right – really is not the right way to go at all.

Despite the possibility of your 50/50 or double-up lineup doing well enough in a given week to get a payout from a tournament, that is not the right approach to tournament play. Looking back at it now I realized that what I was doing was post-game analysis and thinking that sometimes my entry would be good enough for a return in a tournament, but that is Monday morning quarterbacking. In reality, the two types of games require two separate and distinct approaches to lineup construction, which leads me back to the topic of two mindsets. Once you understand this, it becomes much easier and clearer to understand. Ask yourself this question about both types of games: “What is the object of this type of DFS game?” For a 50/50 or double up, the answer is to finish in the top half (50/50s) or top 45% (double up) of the entries. It does not matter if you finish first out of 100 teams or 40th – you get the same payout either way.

Now let’s go back to that question for GPP games. What is the object when you submit a team for a tournament? The answer is completely different than for a cash game. For tournament play, the goal is to finish as high in the standings as possible because the higher your finish, the bigger the payout from that contest. The goal is two-fold – finish in the money and also finish as high up in the standings (and earn more money) as possible. That’s a huge difference. Just because your 50/50 team might have made the money (Top 10-25%, depending on the tournament), that does not mean it was the right kind of team to enter in such a contest. I cannot emphasize this enough, so I will break it down even further with discussions of what a cash game lineup should be about vs. a tournament lineup.

For a 50/50 lineup, the goal is to finish in the top half of the contest. So if there are 100 teams, you goal is to finish in the Top 50. It does not matter at all whether you finish first or 50th, just as long as you stay in the Top 50 - the payouts are exactly the same for all of the Top 50 finishers. So now your mindset has to go towards building a lineup that has good performance and minimizing the risk (or downside) of the players you choose to put in that lineup. It does not matter whether you have a running back or a wide receiver from the same team – all you want are players that are consistent performers that should, on average, post respectable fantasy totals that should make the player worth roughly double his pricetag (a general guideline for a 50/50 is twice their salary). A respectable score is the goal, not a huge number that puts your team way out front. With this in mind, it might actually be beneficial to have a running back and a wide receiver from the same team, with the thought process being that the odds are pretty good that one of them has a good day and the two players as a combination will net out to be good value plays. Consider the example of Antonio Brown and Le’Veon Bell. If Bell scores twice, odds are low that Brown does the same, and vice versa – but you could probably argue that odds are pretty good that one of them finds the end zone. You can also make a similar argument for one of them getting 100 yards. With a baseline of 100 yards for one and 50 for the other plus a touchdown, the combined worth of that pairing has a “high floor” or baseline of value and have good odds of reaching enough fantasy points to equal twice their combined salaries.

Now we need to discuss tournament lineups. This is the opposite type of thinking for 50/50s. You actually don’t care about a respectable score, because you want to finish at least in the Top 10%, and hopefully in the Top 1% or even first overall. Respectable scores that put you just ahead of 50% of the field are still worthless because only the Top 10-25% get payouts, so you have to take on more risk. This is where you need to really think about which players can explode on a given day to really boost your scores. On FanDuel, you are typically shooting for at least three times a player’s salary and on other sites like DraftKings you need to even get 4x or better to finish way out ahead. So now you can see that you need players that are riskier but offer more upside than in a 50/50 lineup. Taking a $5,000 receiver that gets 5-6 catches and 60-70 yards a week on a consistent basis may be just fine for a 50/50, but that is not going to cut it for a tournament. You need a player that can achieve at least 100 yards and a touchdown – and preferably has the chance to find the end zone more than once. Even if there is the possibility that he lays an egg and fails miserably, you have to go for the high upside players in order to finish way up in the standings. This is why you typically have to avoid pairing any players from the same team unless you build a “stack” of a quarterback and a receiver or tight end that could hook up several times a game. To maximize your upside and give you the best chance at winning a tournament you have to go for only one player from each team, but certain pairings (such as defense and running back) can make sense for a game to play out a certain way (a good defense will help a team to lead in the second half, where the team’s lead rusher will get plenty of work to run out the fourth quarter).

So there are two separate and distinct mindsets – cash games and tournament play. There is nothing wrong in playing both types of games, but there is a warning to heed. The danger here is that you start to build one type of lineup (and enter a type of contest) with the wrong philosophy in mind and start to put players you like for cash games in GPP lineups and vice versa. That is a mistake and will hurt you in the long run, even if you experience short term success. My recommendation would be to build one type of lineup first and then get up from the computer, take a walk, enjoy a beverage and then come back with a brand new mindset and a clean slate. Then build the rest of your lineups with the other frame of mind. This will help you to succeed in both cash and GPP games.

Good luck this week!
For the most part I definitely agree with this, but as I have said many times and others have said I think you want to put your cash game lineup in one tourney even if it is a very small one. There is nothing worse than your cash lineup going off and you are kicking yourself because you didn't have it in a tourney.

 
Good article by Jeff Pasquino in this weeks daily grind:

DFS LESSON OF THE WEEK - MINDSETS

This week I wanted to talk about mindsets. What I mean by that is the frame of mind you should be in or have to be in in order to build the right type of DFS lineup. The mindset in building a cash game lineup (50/50, head-to-head, or 2x (double up)) is different than building a lineup for a GPP tournament. That is very important to understand, and it is something easily overlooked by newer DFS players. I still remember when I first started playing DFS, I would build teams for 50/50s and double ups as I knew that was a safer way to play as I was first dipping my toes in this uncharted water. When I would look back and see how I did some weeks, I started to notice that sometimes the lineups I built would be good enough and score high enough to land in the money zone for the big tournaments. That led me to believe that I should just go ahead and put that same lineup in tournaments on the chance I could hit it big and get an extra payout. By limiting the tournament play to just a few and much smaller amounts than my 50/50 and double-up play, I thought I was being smart about it and opening up some upside for my bankroll. Now I know that this approach even though it seems right really is not the right way to go at all.

Despite the possibility of your 50/50 or double-up lineup doing well enough in a given week to get a payout from a tournament, that is not the right approach to tournament play. Looking back at it now I realized that what I was doing was post-game analysis and thinking that sometimes my entry would be good enough for a return in a tournament, but that is Monday morning quarterbacking. In reality, the two types of games require two separate and distinct approaches to lineup construction, which leads me back to the topic of two mindsets. Once you understand this, it becomes much easier and clearer to understand. Ask yourself this question about both types of games: What is the object of this type of DFS game? For a 50/50 or double up, the answer is to finish in the top half (50/50s) or top 45% (double up) of the entries. It does not matter if you finish first out of 100 teams or 40th you get the same payout either way.

Now lets go back to that question for GPP games. What is the object when you submit a team for a tournament? The answer is completely different than for a cash game. For tournament play, the goal is to finish as high in the standings as possible because the higher your finish, the bigger the payout from that contest. The goal is two-fold finish in the money and also finish as high up in the standings (and earn more money) as possible. Thats a huge difference. Just because your 50/50 team might have made the money (Top 10-25%, depending on the tournament), that does not mean it was the right kind of team to enter in such a contest. I cannot emphasize this enough, so I will break it down even further with discussions of what a cash game lineup should be about vs. a tournament lineup.

For a 50/50 lineup, the goal is to finish in the top half of the contest. So if there are 100 teams, you goal is to finish in the Top 50. It does not matter at all whether you finish first or 50th, just as long as you stay in the Top 50 - the payouts are exactly the same for all of the Top 50 finishers. So now your mindset has to go towards building a lineup that has good performance and minimizing the risk (or downside) of the players you choose to put in that lineup. It does not matter whether you have a running back or a wide receiver from the same team all you want are players that are consistent performers that should, on average, post respectable fantasy totals that should make the player worth roughly double his pricetag (a general guideline for a 50/50 is twice their salary). A respectable score is the goal, not a huge number that puts your team way out front. With this in mind, it might actually be beneficial to have a running back and a wide receiver from the same team, with the thought process being that the odds are pretty good that one of them has a good day and the two players as a combination will net out to be good value plays. Consider the example of Antonio Brown and LeVeon Bell. If Bell scores twice, odds are low that Brown does the same, and vice versa but you could probably argue that odds are pretty good that one of them finds the end zone. You can also make a similar argument for one of them getting 100 yards. With a baseline of 100 yards for one and 50 for the other plus a touchdown, the combined worth of that pairing has a high floor or baseline of value and have good odds of reaching enough fantasy points to equal twice their combined salaries.

Now we need to discuss tournament lineups. This is the opposite type of thinking for 50/50s. You actually dont care about a respectable score, because you want to finish at least in the Top 10%, and hopefully in the Top 1% or even first overall. Respectable scores that put you just ahead of 50% of the field are still worthless because only the Top 10-25% get payouts, so you have to take on more risk. This is where you need to really think about which players can explode on a given day to really boost your scores. On FanDuel, you are typically shooting for at least three times a players salary and on other sites like DraftKings you need to even get 4x or better to finish way out ahead. So now you can see that you need players that are riskier but offer more upside than in a 50/50 lineup. Taking a $5,000 receiver that gets 5-6 catches and 60-70 yards a week on a consistent basis may be just fine for a 50/50, but that is not going to cut it for a tournament. You need a player that can achieve at least 100 yards and a touchdown and preferably has the chance to find the end zone more than once. Even if there is the possibility that he lays an egg and fails miserably, you have to go for the high upside players in order to finish way up in the standings. This is why you typically have to avoid pairing any players from the same team unless you build a stack of a quarterback and a receiver or tight end that could hook up several times a game. To maximize your upside and give you the best chance at winning a tournament you have to go for only one player from each team, but certain pairings (such as defense and running back) can make sense for a game to play out a certain way (a good defense will help a team to lead in the second half, where the teams lead rusher will get plenty of work to run out the fourth quarter).

So there are two separate and distinct mindsets cash games and tournament play. There is nothing wrong in playing both types of games, but there is a warning to heed. The danger here is that you start to build one type of lineup (and enter a type of contest) with the wrong philosophy in mind and start to put players you like for cash games in GPP lineups and vice versa. That is a mistake and will hurt you in the long run, even if you experience short term success. My recommendation would be to build one type of lineup first and then get up from the computer, take a walk, enjoy a beverage and then come back with a brand new mindset and a clean slate. Then build the rest of your lineups with the other frame of mind. This will help you to succeed in both cash and GPP games.

Good luck this week!
For the most part I definitely agree with this, but as I have said many times and others have said I think you want to put your cash game lineup in one tourney even if it is a very small one. There is nothing worse than your cash lineup going off and you are kicking yourself because you didn't have it in a tourney.
I understand this but I think Jeff's point is a good one. I think this is a lot like taking insurance or side bets (suckers bets) in blackjack. You tend to remember when the dealer had blackjack and you bought insurance (or didn't) or when you hit the High tie or would have hit it if you'd just played the side bet. In the long run though it's a losing strategy.
 
2. What does the math say about the contests? Are the big GPPs sucker bets? If you are in this to make money, are you doing double up mostly? I feel like I am missing some research by some mathmagenius that is telling me which contests make more sense, and are the best bang for the buck.
Other things equal, you want your teams to constitute the smallest percentage of the total action possible (above zero, of course). You can see this by considering a reductio ad absurdum in which we enter ten entries into a ten-team 50/50, such that we constitute 100% of the action. In that case, all we're doing is paying the rake. We can't possibly make a profit.

It's a matter of semantics whether we call this an effect of the rake or something else -- but either way, if you're an above-average player, and if we hold the quality of your opponents constant, you're better off playing in a 100-team contest than in a 10-team contest, and your're better off playing in a 10-team contest than in a H2H contest. Jeff Pasquino shows you the math here, but an easy way to think about it is that in a 100-team contest, a full 99% of the teams constitute "the field," which you're expected to have an advantage over. In a 10-team contest, only 90% of the teams constitute "the field." Playing in a 10-team contest is a bit like entering ten identical teams in a 100-team contest -- in which case each of your teams is facing itself nine times, which is a tough matchup and makes it harder to beat the rake.

.
I think this is a way oversimplified look at it.

little short on time, but the bullet points would be that there's a psychological side to this that dwarfs absolute mathematical efficiency --- meaning, would you consider it a good value bet to sink your money into a bet that takes 99 yrs to cash, but returns 10% on your money?

also, let's say you're an above average player playing h2h ---- your team has a value of 70, while your opponents score 1-100.

you can see that you'd be winning more than you lose over time, and that's even beside the point of picking your opponents to slant things further.

if I take my 70 point line up and put it into a gpp with 1000 entrants, how long will it take to win that thing?

you'll win it eventually, but how does it stack up against playing 1000 single teams one by one?

the reason gpp's are a bit like the lottery is that no matter how good you are, what are the odds that one of those other tickets has the 3 guys with the freak blow up --- somebody in there has that asiata, roethlisberger, donnell combo that beats you, and while that's also true of the h2h, it could take 500 contests to meet him.

that's not to say people should avoid the gpp, just that you are way oversimplifying the math of it, and ignoring a big chunk of the equation that's a lot harder to quantify.

 
I disagree with Jeff on this. I have noticed in larger tournament on Fan Duel that 120 is cashing most of the time. Last week was the anomaly.

 
I disagree with Jeff on this. I have noticed in larger tournament on Fan Duel that 120 is cashing most of the time. Last week was the anomaly.
I don't buy into this. If 120 gets you into the top 18% (what most GPPs start paying out at) most of the time then it would get you into the top 18% of large Quintuple ups. If this happened most of the time then the quintuple up EV would make it by far the best play on fanduel. I love me some Quintuple ups but my experience is you need 138-140 to get into the money in a normal week.

 
I disagree with Jeff on this. I have noticed in larger tournament on Fan Duel that 120 is cashing most of the time. Last week was the anomaly.
I don't buy into this. If 120 gets you into the top 18% (what most GPPs start paying out at) most of the time then it would get you into the top 18% of large Quintuple ups. If this happened most of the time then the quintuple up EV would make it by far the best play on fanduel. I love me some Quintuple ups but my experience is you need 138-140 to get into the money in a normal week.
I am on my phone right now, but when I get to my computer I will look it up. I can recall at least twice I had teams in the 120's that cashed

 
I don't think there's any such thing as a normal week. Weeks with byes are different from weeks without byes, for instance.

 
msudaisy26 said:
jeaton6 said:
msudaisy26 said:
I disagree with Jeff on this. I have noticed in larger tournament on Fan Duel that 120 is cashing most of the time. Last week was the anomaly.
I don't buy into this. If 120 gets you into the top 18% (what most GPPs start paying out at) most of the time then it would get you into the top 18% of large Quintuple ups. If this happened most of the time then the quintuple up EV would make it by far the best play on fanduel. I love me some Quintuple ups but my experience is you need 138-140 to get into the money in a normal week.
I am on my phone right now, but when I get to my computer I will look it up. I can recall at least twice I had teams in the 120's that cashed
I could see it happening every once in a while. Would love to see your info. I wish we could get access to fanduels full data set that would really give us insight I to the numbers rather than ajusy a few peoples experience. Maurile, based on your number of entries how statistically significant are your results?

 

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