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Religion and Terrorism (1 Viewer)

Chadstroma

Footballguy
Hopefully we can keep LHUCKS out and have a discussion as we were about religion and terrorism. I think that that is a worthwhile and honest discussion to have.

'NCCommish said:
'Chadstroma said:
'NCCommish said:
I think you might want to slow down a bit. We know far too little to have this conversation yet.
And from what little info that has been speculated on- it would seem this guy was a 'Christian' in the same way that the Aryan Nation is 'Christian'.
Well here's the thing. Aryan Nation considers themselves Christians and they will cite you chapter and verse. And it isn't whether or not you consider them Christian what matters it's what they think. The vast overwhelming majority of Muslims don't consider terrorism part of Islam. Sure doesn't stop anybody from putting it there though.
Anything can be made to be a tool of anything. Why would we not expect evil and twisted individuals to use religion for their own? History is full of examples of this. That fact, by itself, does not have any reflection on the religion itself. Even more so when it is clear that the twisted thinking that leads to the using of religion is divorced from the actual teachings of that religion. And here's the thing. There is a major difference in your analogy of Christians and Muslims. When some whacko does something like this in the name of Christianity or born from some warped version of Christianity- the vast majority of Christians worldwide are horrified, vehemently condemn the act without reservation and cry for justice. When some whacko Muslim does something like this in the name of Allah or born from some warped version of Islam- the majority of Muslims worldwide are silent. Many are sympathetic to the reasoning, purpose and goals of the terrorist. Many outright rejoice in the act. And then you have a small minority vocally condemning the acts.
 
the overwhelming majority of Muslims detest terrorism...particularly in peaceful Muslim countries/regions.

Why Americans refuse to believe this...I have no idea, most likely because they feel they need to place their anger...which is shallow and immature at best.

 
It is a worthwhile conversation to have. However, I don't think LHUCK's thread should have been locked.

As many people know here, LHUCKS is a poster I really don't like; probably the only poster here I really don't like. I found his comments on this issue to be disgusting, as I do with most of his comments. And I think he's completely wrong on this issue.

However, that doesn't change the fact that a thread attacking Christianity was closed almost immediately, while numerous threads which have attacked Islam with a similar venom have been allowed to continue unabated. This seems to be a pretty clear cut double standard.

 
the overwhelming majority of Muslims detest terrorism...particularly in peaceful Muslim countries/regions.

Why Americans refuse to believe this...I have no idea, most likely because they feel they need to place their anger...which is shallow and immature at best.
That is true but yet you feel like you have to say this instead of saying what you did above. Hard to get on board with a serious post of yours when they are so infrequent. :shrug:
 
Hopefully we can keep LHUCKS out and have a discussion as we were about religion and terrorism. I think that that is a worthwhile and honest discussion to have.

'NCCommish said:
'Chadstroma said:
'NCCommish said:
I think you might want to slow down a bit. We know far too little to have this conversation yet.
And from what little info that has been speculated on- it would seem this guy was a 'Christian' in the same way that the Aryan Nation is 'Christian'.
Well here's the thing. Aryan Nation considers themselves Christians and they will cite you chapter and verse. And it isn't whether or not you consider them Christian what matters it's what they think. The vast overwhelming majority of Muslims don't consider terrorism part of Islam. Sure doesn't stop anybody from putting it there though.
Anything can be made to be a tool of anything. Why would we not expect evil and twisted individuals to use religion for their own? History is full of examples of this. That fact, by itself, does not have any reflection on the religion itself. Even more so when it is clear that the twisted thinking that leads to the using of religion is divorced from the actual teachings of that religion. And here's the thing. There is a major difference in your analogy of Christians and Muslims. When some whacko does something like this in the name of Christianity or born from some warped version of Christianity- the vast majority of Christians worldwide are horrified, vehemently condemn the act without reservation and cry for justice. When some whacko Muslim does something like this in the name of Allah or born from some warped version of Islam- the majority of Muslims worldwide are silent. Many are sympathetic to the reasoning, purpose and goals of the terrorist. Many outright rejoice in the act. And then you have a small minority vocally condemning the acts.
This is horse####. Do you personally talk to the "vast majority of Christians" and the "vast majority of Muslims" after each attack and compile the data?
 
"Al-Qaeda is to Islam as KKK/Aryan Nation is to Christianity." -Bradley Whitford as Josh Lyman
Neither the KKK nor Aryan Nation enjoy state support, which is something that multiple Islamic terror groups benefit from (including Al Qaeda, obviously). And it should also be easy to agree that while the KKK and Al Qaeda represent minority views within their own religious communities, Muslim support for Al Qaeda is orders of magnitude larger than Christian support for the KKK.So in other words, yes there are some similarities here, but there are some hugely important differences as well.
 
With regard to what percentage of Muslims support terrorism- this is a Pew research poll on the subject from 2006:

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/26/where-terrorism-finds-support-in-the-muslim-world

One of the troublesome aspects of the poll is that a significant number of Muslims don't view suicide bombing, particulary that carried out by Palestinians against Israel, to be terrorist activities. Most of us in the western world do consider that to be terrorism; I certainly do. If you include those numbers in the overall numbers, then the percentage of those who approve becomes quite large, and there is no way that anyone can reasonably state, as a few people have here, that "the overwhelming majority of Muslims detest terrorism". That's just not true. It's a declining number, certainly, and that's a great thing, and perhaps 5 years after this poll was done it's declined even further. But even with the decline it's a much much larger percentage than that of Christians which support any kind of terror, so much so that it makes these sorts of comparisons simply absurd, IMO.

 
the overwhelming majority of Muslims detest terrorism...particularly in peaceful Muslim countries/regions.Why Americans refuse to believe this...I have no idea, most likely because they feel they need to place their anger...which is shallow and immature at best.
What do you think is an 'overwhelming majority'? You do realize that the majority of conflicts worldwide today have some connection to Islam in one way, shape or form. Be it Sudan, Chechnya, Iraq, Afghanistan, The Philippines, Somalia, Israel/Palestine, Lebanon, Yemen, and on and on and on. Coincidence? What about general human rights or the treatment of women in Islamic majority countries? Coincidence that they are always among the worse worldwide? What about freedom of religion in these countries? Do you know how many people are killed every year because they dared believe in another religion other than Islam in these peaceful countries? There really is a difference in the shaping of worldview from Christianity and Islam. We see it in action and we see the conflict. That does not mean that people will not use either religion for their own purposes or distort the teachings of the religion but there is a 'systemic' difference in what worldview is encouraged to grow in the context of each separate religion. Saying all of this does not mean that Muslims can not be peace loving or that even a majority reject terrorism. But we also can not deny the truth about the world.
Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the jizya [tribute] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (9:29)
 
Hopefully we can keep LHUCKS out and have a discussion as we were about religion and terrorism. I think that that is a worthwhile and honest discussion to have.

'NCCommish said:
'Chadstroma said:
'NCCommish said:
I think you might want to slow down a bit. We know far too little to have this conversation yet.
And from what little info that has been speculated on- it would seem this guy was a 'Christian' in the same way that the Aryan Nation is 'Christian'.
Well here's the thing. Aryan Nation considers themselves Christians and they will cite you chapter and verse. And it isn't whether or not you consider them Christian what matters it's what they think. The vast overwhelming majority of Muslims don't consider terrorism part of Islam. Sure doesn't stop anybody from putting it there though.
Anything can be made to be a tool of anything. Why would we not expect evil and twisted individuals to use religion for their own? History is full of examples of this. That fact, by itself, does not have any reflection on the religion itself. Even more so when it is clear that the twisted thinking that leads to the using of religion is divorced from the actual teachings of that religion. And here's the thing. There is a major difference in your analogy of Christians and Muslims. When some whacko does something like this in the name of Christianity or born from some warped version of Christianity- the vast majority of Christians worldwide are horrified, vehemently condemn the act without reservation and cry for justice. When some whacko Muslim does something like this in the name of Allah or born from some warped version of Islam- the majority of Muslims worldwide are silent. Many are sympathetic to the reasoning, purpose and goals of the terrorist. Many outright rejoice in the act. And then you have a small minority vocally condemning the acts.
This is horse####. Do you personally talk to the "vast majority of Christians" and the "vast majority of Muslims" after each attack and compile the data?
Do you seriously believe the support for terrorism between Christians and Muslims are even within a factor of 10 of each other?
 
the overwhelming majority of Muslims detest terrorism...particularly in peaceful Muslim countries/regions.Why Americans refuse to believe this...I have no idea, most likely because they feel they need to place their anger...which is shallow and immature at best.
What do you think is an 'overwhelming majority'? You do realize that the majority of conflicts worldwide today have some connection to Islam in one way, shape or form. Be it Sudan, Chechnya, Iraq, Afghanistan, The Philippines, Somalia, Israel/Palestine, Lebanon, Yemen, and on and on and on. Coincidence? What about general human rights or the treatment of women in Islamic majority countries? Coincidence that they are always among the worse worldwide? What about freedom of religion in these countries? Do you know how many people are killed every year because they dared believe in another religion other than Islam in these peaceful countries? There really is a difference in the shaping of worldview from Christianity and Islam. We see it in action and we see the conflict. That does not mean that people will not use either religion for their own purposes or distort the teachings of the religion but there is a 'systemic' difference in what worldview is encouraged to grow in the context of each separate religion. Saying all of this does not mean that Muslims can not be peace loving or that even a majority reject terrorism. But we also can not deny the truth about the world.
Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the jizya [tribute] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (9:29)
Do you really want to do dueling quotes? Do you really want me to start posting all the quotes in the Bible that say God ordered the enemies of the Jews slaughtered including every woman and child? All the women raped? The old peopel killed? Because we can go there if you want but it would seem that would get uncivil quick.
 
With regard to what percentage of Muslims support terrorism- this is a Pew research poll on the subject from 2006:

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/26/where-terrorism-finds-support-in-the-muslim-world

One of the troublesome aspects of the poll is that a significant number of Muslims don't view suicide bombing, particulary that carried out by Palestinians against Israel, to be terrorist activities. Most of us in the western world do consider that to be terrorism; I certainly do. If you include those numbers in the overall numbers, then the percentage of those who approve becomes quite large, and there is no way that anyone can reasonably state, as a few people have here, that "the overwhelming majority of Muslims detest terrorism". That's just not true. It's a declining number, certainly, and that's a great thing, and perhaps 5 years after this poll was done it's declined even further. But even with the decline it's a much much larger percentage than that of Christians which support any kind of terror, so much so that it makes these sorts of comparisons simply absurd, IMO.
You don't consider what the Israelis do to be a problem and they don't view fighting back as a problem. Seems we have at least two groups that need to take a second look perhaps.
 
the overwhelming majority of Muslims detest terrorism...particularly in peaceful Muslim countries/regions.Why Americans refuse to believe this...I have no idea, most likely because they feel they need to place their anger...which is shallow and immature at best.
What do you think is an 'overwhelming majority'? You do realize that the majority of conflicts worldwide today have some connection to Islam in one way, shape or form. Be it Sudan, Chechnya, Iraq, Afghanistan, The Philippines, Somalia, Israel/Palestine, Lebanon, Yemen, and on and on and on. Coincidence? What about general human rights or the treatment of women in Islamic majority countries? Coincidence that they are always among the worse worldwide? What about freedom of religion in these countries? Do you know how many people are killed every year because they dared believe in another religion other than Islam in these peaceful countries? There really is a difference in the shaping of worldview from Christianity and Islam. We see it in action and we see the conflict. That does not mean that people will not use either religion for their own purposes or distort the teachings of the religion but there is a 'systemic' difference in what worldview is encouraged to grow in the context of each separate religion. Saying all of this does not mean that Muslims can not be peace loving or that even a majority reject terrorism. But we also can not deny the truth about the world.
Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the jizya [tribute] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (9:29)
Do you really want to do dueling quotes? Do you really want me to start posting all the quotes in the Bible that say God ordered the enemies of the Jews slaughtered including every woman and child? All the women raped? The old peopel killed? Because we can go there if you want but it would seem that would get uncivil quick.
Old Testament my friend. I am not running away from that. What I am pointing out is the shaping of belief and action as we see it today. There are differences among two of the world's great religions. You can not avoid that.
 
You know guys it's been fun but I am not really feeling it. So I am going to go play some Civ 4. In honor of Tim I am going to make Judaism my state religion. Y'all have fun.

 
You know guys it's been fun but I am not really feeling it. So I am going to go play some Civ 4. In honor of Tim I am going to make Judaism my state religion. Y'all have fun.
I'm not going to be able to deal with this one either. Baseball is better, :bye:
 
With regard to what percentage of Muslims support terrorism- this is a Pew research poll on the subject from 2006:

http://pewresearch.o...he-muslim-world

One of the troublesome aspects of the poll is that a significant number of Muslims don't view suicide bombing, particulary that carried out by Palestinians against Israel, to be terrorist activities. Most of us in the western world do consider that to be terrorism; I certainly do. If you include those numbers in the overall numbers, then the percentage of those who approve becomes quite large, and there is no way that anyone can reasonably state, as a few people have here, that "the overwhelming majority of Muslims detest terrorism". That's just not true. It's a declining number, certainly, and that's a great thing, and perhaps 5 years after this poll was done it's declined even further. But even with the decline it's a much much larger percentage than that of Christians which support any kind of terror, so much so that it makes these sorts of comparisons simply absurd, IMO.
You don't consider what the Israelis do to be a problem and they don't view fighting back as a problem. Seems we have at least two groups that need to take a second look perhaps.
Actually I do consider what the Israelis do, at times, to be a MAJOR problem. But I also regard suicide bombing as terrorism and evil. For me there really is no moral equivalency.
 
the overwhelming majority of Muslims detest terrorism...particularly in peaceful Muslim countries/regions.

Why Americans refuse to believe this...I have no idea, most likely because they feel they need to place their anger...which is shallow and immature at best.
In most countries, a majority do oppose terrorism, but that doesn't mean that a SUBSTANTIAL number of them don't support it. Consider these numbers:

The polling also finds that in most majority-Muslim countries surveyed, support for suicide bombings and other acts of violence in defense of Islam has declined significantly. In Turkey, Morocco and Indonesia, 15% or fewer now say such actions are justifiable. In Pakistan, only one-in-four now take that view (25%), a sharp drop from 41% in March 2004. In Lebanon, 39% now regard acts of terrorism as often or sometimes justified, again a sharp drop from the 73% who shared that view in 2002. A notable exception to this trend is Jordan, where a majority (57%) now says suicide bombings and other violent actions are justifiable in defense of Islam.

When it comes to suicide bombings in Iraq, however, Muslims in the surveyed countries are divided. Nearly half of Muslims in Lebanon and Jordan, and 56% in Morocco, say suicide bombings against Americans and other Westerners in Iraq are justifiable. However, substantial majorities in Turkey, Pakistan and Indonesia take the opposite view.
So even in the better case scenarios of Middle Eastern Muslim countries, up to 15% of the people support suicide bombings and other terrorist activities. Oh, except when Americans in Iraq are the targets, then the numbers start increasing. I think it's unfair to say that all Muslims are terrorists or support terrorism because it's clearly not true. But the disturbing truth is that a statistically substantial number of them DO support terrorist acts.

Approximately 2 million people in Lebanon support terrorist acts. Approximately 3 million in Jordan. 15 million in Morocco. 10 million in Turkey. 40 million in Pakistan. That's 70 million Muslims that support terrorism in support of their religion and we haven't even talked about Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Sudan, Algeria, Yemen, Nigeria and Indonesia.

The numbers of Christians or Westerners in general aren't even close to those numbers. To pretend that followers of Islam track right along with Christians in their extremist beliefs is outrageous. It has no basis in fact.

Again, that doesn't mean that ALL Muslims are terrorists or support terrorism or even that the majority of them do. They don't. But a VERY SIGNIFICANT percentage of them do. WAY more than any other religion and enough that it should be recognized as a concern.

LINK

LINK2

 
the overwhelming majority of Muslims detest terrorism...particularly in peaceful Muslim countries/regions.

Why Americans refuse to believe this...I have no idea, most likely because they feel they need to place their anger...which is shallow and immature at best.
In most countries, a majority do oppose terrorism, but that doesn't mean that a SUBSTANTIAL number of them don't support it. Consider these numbers:

The polling also finds that in most majority-Muslim countries surveyed, support for suicide bombings and other acts of violence in defense of Islam has declined significantly. In Turkey, Morocco and Indonesia, 15% or fewer now say such actions are justifiable. In Pakistan, only one-in-four now take that view (25%), a sharp drop from 41% in March 2004. In Lebanon, 39% now regard acts of terrorism as often or sometimes justified, again a sharp drop from the 73% who shared that view in 2002. A notable exception to this trend is Jordan, where a majority (57%) now says suicide bombings and other violent actions are justifiable in defense of Islam.

When it comes to suicide bombings in Iraq, however, Muslims in the surveyed countries are divided. Nearly half of Muslims in Lebanon and Jordan, and 56% in Morocco, say suicide bombings against Americans and other Westerners in Iraq are justifiable. However, substantial majorities in Turkey, Pakistan and Indonesia take the opposite view.
So even in the better case scenarios of Middle Eastern Muslim countries, up to 15% of the people support suicide bombings and other terrorist activities. Oh, except when Americans in Iraq are the targets, then the numbers start increasing. I think it's unfair to say that all Muslims are terrorists or support terrorism because it's clearly not true. But the disturbing truth is that a statistically substantial number of them DO support terrorist acts.

Approximately 2 million people in Lebanon support terrorist acts. Approximately 3 million in Jordan. 15 million in Morocco. 10 million in Turkey. 40 million in Pakistan. That's 70 million Muslims that support terrorism in support of their religion and we haven't even talked about Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Sudan, Algeria, Yemen, Nigeria and Indonesia.

The numbers of Christians or Westerners in general aren't even close to those numbers. To pretend that followers of Islam track right along with Christians in their extremist beliefs is outrageous. It has no basis in fact.

Again, that doesn't mean that ALL Muslims are terrorists or support terrorism or even that the majority of them do. They don't. But a VERY SIGNIFICANT percentage of them do. WAY more than any other religion and enough that it should be recognized as a concern.

LINK

LINK2
This is exactly the same argument I have been trying to make all along. Thank you.
 
the overwhelming majority of Muslims detest terrorism...particularly in peaceful Muslim countries/regions.

Why Americans refuse to believe this...I have no idea, most likely because they feel they need to place their anger...which is shallow and immature at best.
In most countries, a majority do oppose terrorism, but that doesn't mean that a SUBSTANTIAL number of them don't support it. Consider these numbers:

The polling also finds that in most majority-Muslim countries surveyed, support for suicide bombings and other acts of violence in defense of Islam has declined significantly. In Turkey, Morocco and Indonesia, 15% or fewer now say such actions are justifiable. In Pakistan, only one-in-four now take that view (25%), a sharp drop from 41% in March 2004. In Lebanon, 39% now regard acts of terrorism as often or sometimes justified, again a sharp drop from the 73% who shared that view in 2002. A notable exception to this trend is Jordan, where a majority (57%) now says suicide bombings and other violent actions are justifiable in defense of Islam.

When it comes to suicide bombings in Iraq, however, Muslims in the surveyed countries are divided. Nearly half of Muslims in Lebanon and Jordan, and 56% in Morocco, say suicide bombings against Americans and other Westerners in Iraq are justifiable. However, substantial majorities in Turkey, Pakistan and Indonesia take the opposite view.
So even in the better case scenarios of Middle Eastern Muslim countries, up to 15% of the people support suicide bombings and other terrorist activities. Oh, except when Americans in Iraq are the targets, then the numbers start increasing. I think it's unfair to say that all Muslims are terrorists or support terrorism because it's clearly not true. But the disturbing truth is that a statistically substantial number of them DO support terrorist acts.

Approximately 2 million people in Lebanon support terrorist acts. Approximately 3 million in Jordan. 15 million in Morocco. 10 million in Turkey. 40 million in Pakistan. That's 70 million Muslims that support terrorism in support of their religion and we haven't even talked about Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Sudan, Algeria, Yemen, Nigeria and Indonesia.

The numbers of Christians or Westerners in general aren't even close to those numbers. To pretend that followers of Islam track right along with Christians in their extremist beliefs is outrageous. It has no basis in fact.

Again, that doesn't mean that ALL Muslims are terrorists or support terrorism or even that the majority of them do. They don't. But a VERY SIGNIFICANT percentage of them do. WAY more than any other religion and enough that it should be recognized as a concern.

LINK

LINK2
This is exactly the same argument I have been trying to make all along. Thank you.
I really enjoy you two using data from 2006 when so much has changed since then. Should we use data from 2006 to see if Americans prefer laptops over PCs and Smartphones over beepers? The Pew survey is way over used as a crutch for people trying to make this argument. It's over five years old, thanks.

 
Once you start encouraging people to believe in some unsubstantiated omnipotent being that has some sort of cosmic plan, it creates a framework that allows some who claim to know the plan better than others to control the behavior of fellow believers. I think such a framework is inherently dangerous and immoral. While Christianity may not be as currently active in the terrorism community (although, historically, they have quite a terrorism track record), numerous leaders in the Christian faith were, and still are, teaching people in parts of Africa that the use of condoms to combat the spread of AIDS is an offense to their god. I think most rational people can see why such teachings are foolish at best, and those who preach such a message bear at least some responsibility for the deaths that might have otherwise been prevented through the proper use of condoms. That obviously isn't a form of terrorism, but it is another example of how those who claim to know god's plan feel entitled to recklessly jeopardize others' lives due to their religious doctrine.

 
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Once you start encouraging people to believe that there is nothing more to life than turning into a dust pile, you create a mentality that is inheriently dangerous.....

 
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Once you start encouraging people to believe that there is nothing more to life than turning into a dust pile, you create a mentality that is inheriently dangerous.....
You're insinuating that most people who are religious are psychopaths who, without a fear of reprisal from beyond the grave, would go around committing crimes and murdering whoever they want. I don't believe that is true.ETA: On the other hand, you might be right, because that certainly explains those who feel justified in their crimes, murder, and terrorism in light of their confirmed supernatural faith.

 
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the overwhelming majority of Muslims detest terrorism...particularly in peaceful Muslim countries/regions.

Why Americans refuse to believe this...I have no idea, most likely because they feel they need to place their anger...which is shallow and immature at best.
In most countries, a majority do oppose terrorism, but that doesn't mean that a SUBSTANTIAL number of them don't support it. Consider these numbers:

The polling also finds that in most majority-Muslim countries surveyed, support for suicide bombings and other acts of violence in defense of Islam has declined significantly. In Turkey, Morocco and Indonesia, 15% or fewer now say such actions are justifiable. In Pakistan, only one-in-four now take that view (25%), a sharp drop from 41% in March 2004. In Lebanon, 39% now regard acts of terrorism as often or sometimes justified, again a sharp drop from the 73% who shared that view in 2002. A notable exception to this trend is Jordan, where a majority (57%) now says suicide bombings and other violent actions are justifiable in defense of Islam.

When it comes to suicide bombings in Iraq, however, Muslims in the surveyed countries are divided. Nearly half of Muslims in Lebanon and Jordan, and 56% in Morocco, say suicide bombings against Americans and other Westerners in Iraq are justifiable. However, substantial majorities in Turkey, Pakistan and Indonesia take the opposite view.
So even in the better case scenarios of Middle Eastern Muslim countries, up to 15% of the people support suicide bombings and other terrorist activities. Oh, except when Americans in Iraq are the targets, then the numbers start increasing. I think it's unfair to say that all Muslims are terrorists or support terrorism because it's clearly not true. But the disturbing truth is that a statistically substantial number of them DO support terrorist acts.

Approximately 2 million people in Lebanon support terrorist acts. Approximately 3 million in Jordan. 15 million in Morocco. 10 million in Turkey. 40 million in Pakistan. That's 70 million Muslims that support terrorism in support of their religion and we haven't even talked about Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Sudan, Algeria, Yemen, Nigeria and Indonesia.

The numbers of Christians or Westerners in general aren't even close to those numbers. To pretend that followers of Islam track right along with Christians in their extremist beliefs is outrageous. It has no basis in fact.

Again, that doesn't mean that ALL Muslims are terrorists or support terrorism or even that the majority of them do. They don't. But a VERY SIGNIFICANT percentage of them do. WAY more than any other religion and enough that it should be recognized as a concern.

LINK

LINK2
This is exactly the same argument I have been trying to make all along. Thank you.
I really enjoy you two using data from 2006 when so much has changed since then. Should we use data from 2006 to see if Americans prefer laptops over PCs and Smartphones over beepers? The Pew survey is way over used as a crutch for people trying to make this argument. It's over five years old, thanks.
Have any more current data to refute the pew data?
 
Let's look at the other side of the coin:

“Twenty-eight percent of voters do not believe Muslims should be eligible to sit on the U.S. Supreme Court,” the poll discovered. “Nearly one-third of the country thinks adherents of Islam should be barred from running for President—a slightly higher percentage than the 24 percent who mistakenly believe the current occupant of the Oval Office is himself a Muslim.”
linkAnti-Muslim views grow in US

Conservatives have been the least likely group to support Muslims. Robert Jones, CEO of the Washington-based Public Religion Research Institute, noted last month that while overall favorable views about Muslims had dropped from 41 to 30 percent since 2005, most of that erosion of support was among conservatives.
The survey also said the number of respondents unwilling to have a Muslim as a close friend rose from 9 to 20 percent; people who agreed that Muslims are supportive of the United States declined from 62 to 52 percent; and the percentage of liberals who said Muslims made America more dangerous tripled, from 8 to 24 percent.
Time poll

While the poll revealed that prejudice toward Muslims is widespread, respect for other religious traditions remains sturdy. Respondents held the Jewish faith in the highest regard, with 75% professing to hold a favorable impression — just slightly higher than attitudes toward Protestants and Catholics. Fifty-seven percent say they have a favorable view of the Mormon faith, compared with 44% for Muslims. Despite (or perhaps because of) this widespread antipathy, 62% of respondents say they don't personally know a Muslim American.
Anti-Muslim crimes on rise
 
Once you start encouraging people to believe that there is nothing more to life than turning into a dust pile, you create a mentality that is inheriently dangerous.....
The opposite is true. We've been seeing it for the last 15 years.
 
I really enjoy you two using data from 2006 when so much has changed since then. Should we use data from 2006 to see if Americans prefer laptops over PCs and Smartphones over beepers?

The Pew survey is way over used as a crutch for people trying to make this argument. It's over five years old, thanks.
Have any more current data to refute the pew data?
Newer
No Muslim country surveyed recorded majority support for suicide bombing, Al Qaeda or Osama bin Laden. In Pakistan, only ten per cent like Taliban and only 9 per cent support Al Qaeda.

As many as seventy per cent Pakistanis have unfavorable views of the Taliban and sixty-one per cent reject Al Qaeda openly. Between thirty-twenty per cent say they do not know the two groups well enough to express an opinion.
Recent Pew poll in PakistanPakistan is probably the nation Americans most think of when they think of terrorism or acts of terrorism. Again, the overwhelming majority do not approve of terrorism or terrorists acts to achieve any kind of objective.

So we have to take Timmy's comments with a grain of salt, as he's also been known to make some really far out anti-Muslim claims throughout the years. The other data is too old, six years ago is an eternity after all that has happened with the Arab Spring, Bin Laden's death, our pullout of Iraq and so much other stuff.

More than eight-in-ten (85%) Pakistanis say suicide bombing and other violent acts against civilians in defense of Islam are never justified. Far fewer (38%) said this was the case in 2002, when the Pew Research Center first asked this question.
Here is a great one for this thread:US views on Islam, Pew poll

 
the overwhelming majority of Muslims detest terrorism...particularly in peaceful Muslim countries/regions.

Why Americans refuse to believe this...I have no idea, most likely because they feel they need to place their anger...which is shallow and immature at best.
While I think I agree with the idea that the 'overwhelming majority of Muslims detest terrorism', having known several over the years and getting into conversations with them about events--it's really set me back how political they all seem to be, and just how close it seems that they might be to going over that edge...despite their stated objections. When those I've known have gotten into a discussion of morals and politics it's really seemed like their perspective justifies a violent reaction in response to what they see as Western evils. Hard to pin it down with words, but I've been real glad to walk out of some conversations in one piece. It's like talking to a powderkeg waiting to explode. :mellow:

Purely a very limited, personal sample.

 
Once you start encouraging people to believe that there is nothing more to life than turning into a dust pile, you create a mentality that is inheriently dangerous.....
As opposed to telling them 72 virgins await them in the afterlife?
 
I really enjoy you two using data from 2006 when so much has changed since then. Should we use data from 2006 to see if Americans prefer laptops over PCs and Smartphones over beepers? The Pew survey is way over used as a crutch for people trying to make this argument. It's over five years old, thanks.
I agree with you, and I made that very same point in my post. The numbers in the Pew poll show that Muslim support of terrorism is actually decreasing, and I can only guess from the figures that Tgunz produced in the other thread that since that time it's decreased even more. This is a very good thing, and it's news that a lot of conservatives really don't want to hear. Conservative arguments on this issue seem to at times support the existence of a monolothic Islamic support for terrorism, and that doesn't exist and never has. However, if, and this is very optimistic, Muslim support for terrorism has dropped from around the 10% that the Pew poll reports to around 5% now, that's still 50 million people who support Terrorism. In order to have a moral equivalency, you'd have to have 50 million Christians supporting terrorism. And this does not exist. So again, people who try to equate Islam to Christianity in terms of support for terrorism are just flat out wrong.
 
Let's look at the other side of the coin:

“Twenty-eight percent of voters do not believe Muslims should be eligible to sit on the U.S. Supreme Court,” the poll discovered. “Nearly one-third of the country thinks adherents of Islam should be barred from running for President—a slightly higher percentage than the 24 percent who mistakenly believe the current occupant of the Oval Office is himself a Muslim.”
linkAnti-Muslim views grow in US

Conservatives have been the least likely group to support Muslims. Robert Jones, CEO of the Washington-based Public Religion Research Institute, noted last month that while overall favorable views about Muslims had dropped from 41 to 30 percent since 2005, most of that erosion of support was among conservatives.
The survey also said the number of respondents unwilling to have a Muslim as a close friend rose from 9 to 20 percent; people who agreed that Muslims are supportive of the United States declined from 62 to 52 percent; and the percentage of liberals who said Muslims made America more dangerous tripled, from 8 to 24 percent.
Time poll

While the poll revealed that prejudice toward Muslims is widespread, respect for other religious traditions remains sturdy. Respondents held the Jewish faith in the highest regard, with 75% professing to hold a favorable impression — just slightly higher than attitudes toward Protestants and Catholics. Fifty-seven percent say they have a favorable view of the Mormon faith, compared with 44% for Muslims. Despite (or perhaps because of) this widespread antipathy, 62% of respondents say they don't personally know a Muslim American.
Anti-Muslim crimes on rise
What does any of this have to do with "Religion and Terrorism?" People of good will ought to be able to agree that:a) Anti-Muslim bigotry is bad and

b) Islam currently has a problem with terrorism to a greater extent than other religions

 
Let's look at the other side of the coin:

“Twenty-eight percent of voters do not believe Muslims should be eligible to sit on the U.S. Supreme Court,” the poll discovered. “Nearly one-third of the country thinks adherents of Islam should be barred from running for President—a slightly higher percentage than the 24 percent who mistakenly believe the current occupant of the Oval Office is himself a Muslim.”
linkAnti-Muslim views grow in US

Conservatives have been the least likely group to support Muslims. Robert Jones, CEO of the Washington-based Public Religion Research Institute, noted last month that while overall favorable views about Muslims had dropped from 41 to 30 percent since 2005, most of that erosion of support was among conservatives.
The survey also said the number of respondents unwilling to have a Muslim as a close friend rose from 9 to 20 percent; people who agreed that Muslims are supportive of the United States declined from 62 to 52 percent; and the percentage of liberals who said Muslims made America more dangerous tripled, from 8 to 24 percent.
Time poll

While the poll revealed that prejudice toward Muslims is widespread, respect for other religious traditions remains sturdy. Respondents held the Jewish faith in the highest regard, with 75% professing to hold a favorable impression — just slightly higher than attitudes toward Protestants and Catholics. Fifty-seven percent say they have a favorable view of the Mormon faith, compared with 44% for Muslims. Despite (or perhaps because of) this widespread antipathy, 62% of respondents say they don't personally know a Muslim American.
Anti-Muslim crimes on rise
What does any of this have to do with "Religion and Terrorism?" People of good will ought to be able to agree that:a) Anti-Muslim bigotry is bad and

b) Islam currently has a problem with terrorism to a greater extent than other religions
What it has to do with Religion and Terrorism is that there are a lot of people with unjustified and unreasonable views on the subject. It was just a sidebar in some searches I conducted, you can take them or leave them.
 
Hopefully we can keep LHUCKS out and have a discussion as we were about religion and terrorism. I think that that is a worthwhile and honest discussion to have.

'NCCommish said:
'Chadstroma said:
'NCCommish said:
I think you might want to slow down a bit. We know far too little to have this conversation yet.
And from what little info that has been speculated on- it would seem this guy was a 'Christian' in the same way that the Aryan Nation is 'Christian'.
Well here's the thing. Aryan Nation considers themselves Christians and they will cite you chapter and verse. And it isn't whether or not you consider them Christian what matters it's what they think. The vast overwhelming majority of Muslims don't consider terrorism part of Islam. Sure doesn't stop anybody from putting it there though.
Anything can be made to be a tool of anything. Why would we not expect evil and twisted individuals to use religion for their own? History is full of examples of this. That fact, by itself, does not have any reflection on the religion itself. Even more so when it is clear that the twisted thinking that leads to the using of religion is divorced from the actual teachings of that religion. And here's the thing. There is a major difference in your analogy of Christians and Muslims. When some whacko does something like this in the name of Christianity or born from some warped version of Christianity- the vast majority of Christians worldwide are horrified, vehemently condemn the act without reservation and cry for justice. When some whacko Muslim does something like this in the name of Allah or born from some warped version of Islam- the majority of Muslims worldwide are silent. Many are sympathetic to the reasoning, purpose and goals of the terrorist. Many outright rejoice in the act. And then you have a small minority vocally condemning the acts.
I'd suggest we get rid of religion as a tool altogether, Muslim or Christian or whatever, there are certainly much better tools with less side effects.
 
the overwhelming majority of Muslims detest terrorism...particularly in peaceful Muslim countries/regions.

Why Americans refuse to believe this...I have no idea, most likely because they feel they need to place their anger...which is shallow and immature at best.
In most countries, a majority do oppose terrorism, but that doesn't mean that a SUBSTANTIAL number of them don't support it. Consider these numbers:

The polling also finds that in most majority-Muslim countries surveyed, support for suicide bombings and other acts of violence in defense of Islam has declined significantly. In Turkey, Morocco and Indonesia, 15% or fewer now say such actions are justifiable. In Pakistan, only one-in-four now take that view (25%), a sharp drop from 41% in March 2004. In Lebanon, 39% now regard acts of terrorism as often or sometimes justified, again a sharp drop from the 73% who shared that view in 2002. A notable exception to this trend is Jordan, where a majority (57%) now says suicide bombings and other violent actions are justifiable in defense of Islam.

When it comes to suicide bombings in Iraq, however, Muslims in the surveyed countries are divided. Nearly half of Muslims in Lebanon and Jordan, and 56% in Morocco, say suicide bombings against Americans and other Westerners in Iraq are justifiable. However, substantial majorities in Turkey, Pakistan and Indonesia take the opposite view.
So even in the better case scenarios of Middle Eastern Muslim countries, up to 15% of the people support suicide bombings and other terrorist activities. Oh, except when Americans in Iraq are the targets, then the numbers start increasing. I think it's unfair to say that all Muslims are terrorists or support terrorism because it's clearly not true. But the disturbing truth is that a statistically substantial number of them DO support terrorist acts.

Approximately 2 million people in Lebanon support terrorist acts. Approximately 3 million in Jordan. 15 million in Morocco. 10 million in Turkey. 40 million in Pakistan. That's 70 million Muslims that support terrorism in support of their religion and we haven't even talked about Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Sudan, Algeria, Yemen, Nigeria and Indonesia.

The numbers of Christians or Westerners in general aren't even close to those numbers. To pretend that followers of Islam track right along with Christians in their extremist beliefs is outrageous. It has no basis in fact.

Again, that doesn't mean that ALL Muslims are terrorists or support terrorism or even that the majority of them do. They don't. But a VERY SIGNIFICANT percentage of them do. WAY more than any other religion and enough that it should be recognized as a concern.

LINK

LINK2
This is exactly the same argument I have been trying to make all along. Thank you.
I really enjoy you two using data from 2006 when so much has changed since then. Should we use data from 2006 to see if Americans prefer laptops over PCs and Smartphones over beepers? The Pew survey is way over used as a crutch for people trying to make this argument. It's over five years old, thanks.
You think that religious thinking changes in a pace on par with technology?
 
Once you start encouraging people to believe that there is nothing more to life than turning into a dust pile, you create a mentality that is inheriently dangerous.....
You're insinuating that most people who are religious are psychopaths who, without a fear of reprisal from beyond the grave, would go around committing crimes and murdering whoever they want. I don't believe that is true.ETA: On the other hand, you might be right, because that certainly explains those who feel justified in their crimes, murder, and terrorism in light of their confirmed supernatural faith.
It is odd to me that that is what you got out of that post that was a reply to the previous post from KCC.
 
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What it has to do with Religion and Terrorism is that there are a lot of people with unjustified and unreasonable views on the subject. It was just a sidebar in some searches I conducted, you can take them or leave them.
I hope you are including those who view religion in general as the problem.
 
The evil from secular leaders have far exceeded those of religiously-lead ones in terms of deaths, and it is not even remotely close.

 
Hopefully we can keep LHUCKS out and have a discussion as we were about religion and terrorism. I think that that is a worthwhile and honest discussion to have.

'NCCommish said:
'Chadstroma said:
'NCCommish said:
I think you might want to slow down a bit. We know far too little to have this conversation yet.
And from what little info that has been speculated on- it would seem this guy was a 'Christian' in the same way that the Aryan Nation is 'Christian'.
Well here's the thing. Aryan Nation considers themselves Christians and they will cite you chapter and verse. And it isn't whether or not you consider them Christian what matters it's what they think. The vast overwhelming majority of Muslims don't consider terrorism part of Islam. Sure doesn't stop anybody from putting it there though.
Anything can be made to be a tool of anything. Why would we not expect evil and twisted individuals to use religion for their own? History is full of examples of this. That fact, by itself, does not have any reflection on the religion itself. Even more so when it is clear that the twisted thinking that leads to the using of religion is divorced from the actual teachings of that religion. And here's the thing. There is a major difference in your analogy of Christians and Muslims. When some whacko does something like this in the name of Christianity or born from some warped version of Christianity- the vast majority of Christians worldwide are horrified, vehemently condemn the act without reservation and cry for justice. When some whacko Muslim does something like this in the name of Allah or born from some warped version of Islam- the majority of Muslims worldwide are silent. Many are sympathetic to the reasoning, purpose and goals of the terrorist. Many outright rejoice in the act. And then you have a small minority vocally condemning the acts.
I'd suggest we get rid of religion as a tool altogether, Muslim or Christian or whatever, there are certainly much better tools with less side effects.
Would not matter.... Nationalism, ethnicity, class, language, ideology, culture, xenophobia, economic system, water rights, economic interest, national security, and many more can and are used as tools.
 
Muslims are more prone to using terrorism because they do not have many other options to fight the ideology of the Judeo-Christian West. Plus the West has the luxury of generally defining what are legitimate military actions vs what is terrorism also tilts the scale.

 
'Voice Of Reason said:
Muslims are more prone to using terrorism because they do not have many other options to fight the ideology of the Judeo-Christian West.
This is a legitimate point. Would Muslim terror groups use suicide bombings and attacks on civilians if they had access to a modern military? You'd like to think not.
Plus the West has the luxury of generally defining what are legitimate military actions vs what is terrorism also tilts the scale.
This is not a legitimate point. Going to a camp filled with unarmed kids and killing as many as you can is wrong and evil. If any civilization believes otherwise, they're wrong. This isn't just an invention of western thought, although it is a credit to western culture that we recognize these universal standards even if we sometimes fail to live up to them.
 
The scale currently leans toward Islam for violence, but this wasn't always the case and in no way shows that Christianity isn't succeptible to the same use.

There is no doubt religion is the strongest tool in existence for justifying terrorism/war. Perhaps racism or other forms of prejudice could give it a run for its money.... but these seem to often go hand in hand with each other.

It is the most effective social control on earth, the above is a given.

 
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