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Can you explain why you don't have faith? (2 Viewers)

timschochet

timschochet

Footballguy
This is a counterpoint to Otis' thread in which he challenges religious people to explain their faith. That thread has led to a great discussion, without much of some of the usual negativity that often occurs in religious threads. But I think it's only fair that if we should challenge religious people to justify their faith, we should also challenge non-religious people to justify their lack of faith: what makes you an atheist or agnostic?

For me, I became an atheist after reading about Jonas Salk. Salk's polio vaccine was only one of many medical achievements that have occurred since the development of modern science in the last 150 years or so, but it's one that stuck with me. The notion of a knowing God that could allow an insidious disease like polio to last for centuries, and do nothing about it even as millions of people prayed for Him to cure it, or to save them from the Plague (which we now know was cholera) or all of the other diseases which, in the Middle Ages, meant that life was such a crap shoot. The way millions of people still pray today for God to cure their cancer. A God that would allow that kind of suffering for centuries made no sense to me, unless I was to accept the notion of an amoral, uncaring, possibly evil God. Since I can't, I decided then and there to go with the no God option. Since that time, I've learned a lot of stuff that has strengthened my opinion on this (and that's all it is; I can't prove there is no god) but that was the turning point.

 
I just have difficulty believing in an idea that a man lives in the clouds and oversees the world ... and has this calculated plan for each individual.

 
Never was able to convince younger me of a belief set so implausible, contradictory, and full of distortions from the early Church. No matter how comforting it would have been.

 
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Not to nitpick, but the black plague was not cholera. Cholera is a bacterial infection, caused by Vibrio cholerae. The black or bubonic plague is an entirely different bacterial infection caused by Yersinia pestis.

 
I also have a very specific moral problem with Christianity; but to be fair, I had this problem long before I became an atheist.

To me, the idea that some people go to Hell when they die, while others go to Heaven, in both cases for eternity, not because of any good or evil they performed while they were living, but only based on whether or not they accepted Jesus Christ as their lord and savior- I think that is plainly an immoral notion. Back to Jonas Salk- a non-practicing Jew, he is now in Hell. While a mass murderer who accepts Christ on his deathbed and begs for forgiveness- he is now in Heaven. I could never accept that concept.

 
Tecumseh said:
Not to nitpick, but the black plague was not cholera. Cholera is a bacterial infection, caused by Vibrio cholerae. The black or bubonic plague is an entirely different bacterial infection caused by Yersinia pestis.
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You're correct. Thank you.

 
timschochet said:
I also have a very specific moral problem with Christianity; but to be fair, I had this problem long before I became an atheist.

To me, the idea that some people go to Hell when they die, while others go to Heaven, in both cases for eternity, not because of any good or evil they performed while they were living, but only based on whether or not they accepted Jesus Christ as their lord and savior- I think that is plainly an immoral notion. Back to Jonas Salk- a non-practicing Jew, he is now in Hell. While a mass murderer who accepts Christ on his deathbed and begs for forgiveness- he is now in Heaven. I could never accept that concept.
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Yeah, this was my walkout moment. Although this always bugged me, hearing a pastor talk about the damnation of kids in remote villages in rural Asia really broke the camel's back.

 
[SIZE=10pt]"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]- Stephen Roberts.[/SIZE]

 
I could before, but johnjohn's wisdom in that other thread really has me questioning my (lack of) belief

 
JuniorNB said:
[SIZE=10pt]"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]- Stephen Roberts.[/SIZE]
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Pretty much this.

How many religions are there? It seems infinitely more likely that all N religions are false, than N-1 religions are false but one of them is right. And my odds of guessing the right one seem pretty low.

(I recognize that there many religions share the same god(s), but the larger point remains.)

 
Slapdash said:
timschochet said:
I also have a very specific moral problem with Christianity; but to be fair, I had this problem long before I became an atheist.

To me, the idea that some people go to Hell when they die, while others go to Heaven, in both cases for eternity, not because of any good or evil they performed while they were living, but only based on whether or not they accepted Jesus Christ as their lord and savior- I think that is plainly an immoral notion. Back to Jonas Salk- a non-practicing Jew, he is now in Hell. While a mass murderer who accepts Christ on his deathbed and begs for forgiveness- he is now in Heaven. I could never accept that concept.
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Yeah, this was my walkout moment. Although this always bugged me, hearing a pastor talk about the damnation of kids in remote villages in rural Asia really broke the camel's back.
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Jesus: "Who's the man?"

Dude: "I don't know"

Jesus: "You're going to hell dude"

 
Bucky86 said:
I figure when I do die, I can always beg for forgiveness. Until then, LET'S PARTY! :headbang:
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I've heard that when gay people die, they go to hell unless they repent. Why would I repent, if all of the gay and lesbians are in hell? I'm going to spend eternity having fun, with lesbians, where it's warm. :shrug:

 
I cant really see myself fitting in with most organized religious groups seeing how I think gays should be able to marry whoever they want, think women should choose what they do to their own bodies, and the plethora of other political issues that I generally disagree with most churches on.

As for the more general subject of simply believing in a higher power, I just need evidence in order to believe in it. I certainly hope that there is a higher power and a heaven because that would be pretty sweet. Hope is very different from faith though.

I was raised Catholic and distanced myself from it gradually beginning when I was a teenager. I saw weekly mass as a pointless exercise. If I were inclined to pray I always imagined it a more personal experience, not going to church and reciting the same lines week in and week out like sheep.

 
Are we talking organized religion? I am not an atheist but more of a skeptic than anything.

The whole thing(Faith) is to quell the inner desire of man to find out why we are here. God/Heaven fills that void nicely for a lot of folks. Some people would go crazy if they didn't have an answer to all this so they take comfort in feeling like they have all the answers or enough to satisfy their desires.

I, on the other hand would prefer to continue questioning until the day I die and am fully understanding that I might not ever have the answer or answers in this lifetime.

 
JuniorNB said:
[SIZE=10pt]"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]- Stephen Roberts.[/SIZE]
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Exactly.

 
Thanks Tim. This is interesting to talk about I think. Thanks for folks being cool about it and having a discussion.

Here's something I'd ask to help me better understand where people are coming from. For folks that don't identify with a particular faith or religion, do you believe there is something beyond our life here? Do you feel that there is a "higher power" or are there "spiritual" things that exist beyond what we see here?

J

 
I hold religion to the same standards of reason and evidence I do anything else.

It is that simple.

 
Joe Bryant said:
Thanks Tim. This is interesting to talk about I think. Thanks for folks being cool about it and having a discussion.

Here's something I'd ask to help me better understand where people are coming from. For folks that don't identify with a particular faith or religion, do you believe there is something beyond our life here? Do you feel that there is a "higher power" or are there "spiritual" things that exist beyond what we see here?

J
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Define 'beyond our life here'. You mean when we die? No. We are just like every other animal on earth, only a little more evolved (in some cases). We'll rot in the ground and fertilize some grass.

If there is a "higher power" out there, I've yet to see any evidence to make me believe in it.

 
Joe Bryant said:
Thanks Tim. This is interesting to talk about I think. Thanks for folks being cool about it and having a discussion.

Here's something I'd ask to help me better understand where people are coming from. For folks that don't identify with a particular faith or religion, do you believe there is something beyond our life here? Do you feel that there is a "higher power" or are there "spiritual" things that exist beyond what we see here?

J
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I have not seen, experienced, or been given a single reason to believe such.

 
The simple two-word answer is "Occam's Razor."

I don't think God solves any cosmological, philosophical, or ethical problem. I can't say that's why I don't believe. I never believed (or at least I can distinctly remember some anxiety about not believing as a very small child, maybe four years old or so). But that's why I don't have much anxiety about not believing now.

 
Joe Bryant said:
Here's something I'd ask to help me better understand where people are coming from. For folks that don't identify with a particular faith or religion, do you believe there is something beyond our life here? Do you feel that there is a "higher power" or are there "spiritual" things that exist beyond what we see here?

J
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I don't know.. perhaps. I don't have a staunch opinion that there is absolutely no "higher power" out there somewhere. There very well could be. I just have a hard time believing that the higher power is the one described in the Bible's new and old testaments or the one in the Quran. I base this opinion on contents of the Bible itself (I've never fully read the Quran).

 
Jeez...where do i start? First thing i cant wrap my head around is the Bible. How can any intelligent rational person believe the stories in that book. Hollywood couldnt create such stories on their best days. The issue i have with hardcore religious fanatics is how rigid they are in their beliefs .Its like they have to believe because they are so afraid of the alternative . I work with a Brazilian guy who actually thinks the earth is only 6 thousand years old and tsunamis and other natural disasters are caused by god to punish people. I asked why would god drown or kill babies or pregnant women and his reply is because we are all born into sin :shock: . Its this type of thinking that makes me run the other way,why i cant listen to people who think this way,live in fear of a god of love. Its warped and disgusting . I would never say that there isnt something else after we die no more than i could say there is. I wont know until i die . I wouldnt tell a believer that hes wrong in his beliefs i just wont agree with that person. I think we are here on our own by chance,a result of science not mythical gods . Again though i cant say for sure one way or the other. So in summation i would say i think the Bible is a joke ,a book written by men to control other men. I would say that perhaps we become part of something greater when we die than what we have here while alive but thats just a guess. I hope that there is something better than this because it makes living more worth while . Im what some would call a realist ,i dont believe in UFO`s or big foot or santa clause...if i saw a ufo i would then believe ,i just cant take someone else`s word for it .

 
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Mr Non Sequitur said:
Are we talking organized religion? I am not an atheist but more of a skeptic than anything.

The whole thing(Faith) is to quell the inner desire of man to find out why we are here. God/Heaven fills that void nicely for a lot of folks. Some people would go crazy if they didn't have an answer to all this so they take comfort in feeling like they have all the answers or enough to satisfy their desires.

I, on the other hand would prefer to continue questioning until the day I die and am fully understanding that I might not ever have the answer or answers in this lifetime.
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My 'faith' doesn't quell any inner desires, fill any void or give me comfort; in fact, it provides more grief than comfort. And, because of and despite my 'faith', I intend to continue questioning things until the day I die, and I don't expect to ever learn enough to satisfy my desires. The best I can hope for is that I make peace with it before I die.

Maybe we're confusing faith with belief. The 'best' definition I have for faith is 'the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen'. In that respect, I have very little faith, because no matter what I've read in the Bible or how many times I've read it, I can't take comfort that what I hope for will come to pass and don't feel assured of what I don't see. However, I do have an unshakeable belief in God, though the older I get, more I also believe that there's more of God that I'll never know compared to what I do know. Of what little I know, however, I do hope for the salvation promised by Jesus' death and resurrection. That, if true, seems to me the only bridge to connect imperfect me to perfect God; no amount of good I may do while I'm alive can pay the price to cover the bad I've done. I'm not speaking for others at this point, just my own condition. I concede that I may be totally wrong, and that's why I say I have little faith but unshakeable belief. It's not that I know it's true, I need it to be true, and no amount of faith, in my opinion, can make true something that's quite possibly not true.

 
I think people believe in a higher being/religion so they are able to deal with death and make it a lot less painful for the living. Death sounds a lot less terrible when you have the idea that you will meet again in the afterlife or that person will be reincarnated or will be met with 7 virgins, etc. Whatever it may be for each religion. That sounds a lot better than someone dying, rotting in the earth and you will never see them again.

 
Joe Bryant said:
Thanks Tim. This is interesting to talk about I think. Thanks for folks being cool about it and having a discussion.

Here's something I'd ask to help me better understand where people are coming from. For folks that don't identify with a particular faith or religion, do you believe there is something beyond our life here? Do you feel that there is a "higher power" or are there "spiritual" things that exist beyond what we see here?

J
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I think that there are absolutely some things in this universe that human beings have no concept of. Things that we would or could call magical, impossible, mythical, or extraordinary. I'm sure we will get some understanding of many of those things one day. But we aren't there yet. Just like 1000 years ago the thought that there was a "non-magical," "non-spiritual," "non-incredible" explanation for the fact that invisible (to our eyes) beings surrounded us and made us sick, infected us, or even healed us and made us well again.

Anyway, there is no reason to think we won't continue to discover the amazing, the impossible, the incredible. Could there be a form of "intellegence" that surrounds us all, that this intellegence knows my thoughts, my desires, and wants me to be a good and decent person? Sure, why not. Could we create a computer that exists in this invisible world? Possibly. Could one day we discover that we could upload our brain (our "selves") into this computer? Let's go crazy with the possibilities!

But for now, I could only guess that there is a good possibility that there is a lot more going on in the Universe than what I can see with my eyes, or measure with the tools at our disposal. Haleluja!

 
Timmay said:
I think people believe in a higher being/religion so they are able to deal with death and make it a lot less painful for the living. Death sounds a lot less terrible when you have the idea that you will meet again in the afterlife or that person will be reincarnated or will be met with 7 virgins, etc. Whatever it may be for each religion. That sounds a lot better than someone dying, rotting in the earth and you will never see them again.
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I know I'm going to be rotting in the ground once I die so I'm going to love and enjoy my family and friends while I'm here as it will be the last time I see them.

 
Joe Bryant said:
Thanks Tim. This is interesting to talk about I think. Thanks for folks being cool about it and having a discussion.

Here's something I'd ask to help me better understand where people are coming from. For folks that don't identify with a particular faith or religion, do you believe there is something beyond our life here? Do you feel that there is a "higher power" or are there "spiritual" things that exist beyond what we see here?

J
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I don't rule out some higher power but I am not sure what it could be.

That said I tend to lean towards "once you're dead, you're dead". A state of non-being is hard to fathom but then I don't remember anything before I was born so I suppose that once you die it is all over.

 
Cliff Clavin said:
Joe Bryant said:
Thanks Tim. This is interesting to talk about I think. Thanks for folks being cool about it and having a discussion.

Here's something I'd ask to help me better understand where people are coming from. For folks that don't identify with a particular faith or religion, do you believe there is something beyond our life here? Do you feel that there is a "higher power" or are there "spiritual" things that exist beyond what we see here?

J
Click to expand...
Define 'beyond our life here'. You mean when we die? No. We are just like every other animal on earth, only a little more evolved (in some cases). We'll rot in the ground and fertilize some grass.

If there is a "higher power" out there, I've yet to see any evidence to make me believe in it.
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Hi Cliff,

I'd say I'd define "beyond our life here" to mean as we're living too. As well as when we die.

J

 
Joe Bryant said:
Thanks Tim. This is interesting to talk about I think. Thanks for folks being cool about it and having a discussion.

Here's something I'd ask to help me better understand where people are coming from. For folks that don't identify with a particular faith or religion, do you believe there is something beyond our life here? Do you feel that there is a "higher power" or are there "spiritual" things that exist beyond what we see here?

J
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I'm about as anti religion as they come. It's ridiculous for anyone to think that their god is the god and thus they are right in their beliefs. Seriously, no one on this planet in the history of this planet has even a clue what is beyond. I'm talking zero. No one. Nada. However I'll say that there is some higher power as logically there has to be. This all didn't just magically create itself. That's about as ridiculous as you can get. Once you really start to think about it, however, that is where those with belief stick to what they think because the alternative freaks them out. None of this means however that we all continue on. It may just be lights out.

I don't know just like everyone else on the planet but I'm going with 'When I meet him, it whatever, then fine and how ya doing, now tell me about the rest of the universe'.

 
Joe Bryant said:
Thanks Tim. This is interesting to talk about I think. Thanks for folks being cool about it and having a discussion.

Here's something I'd ask to help me better understand where people are coming from. For folks that don't identify with a particular faith or religion, do you believe there is something beyond our life here? Do you feel that there is a "higher power" or are there "spiritual" things that exist beyond what we see here?

J
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Without a doubt, there is more to reality than we can comprehend. But it seems like a reach to put a spiritual or conscious power behind the multiverse.

 
I like to use logic instead of faith.

The faith I do have in things is more like "hope".

People follow a book written a longggggggggggg time ago, re-written many times and interpreted by different people along the way. Think about that for a minute. At work I told someone a pretty simple story about how I might buy a rental property this month. A couple days later someone else approached and congratulated me on buying a new home for the family and asked when I was moving in. Now, after me telling this to one person and them telling maybe a couple other, look how much that story changed. Now think about how much the initial story that created the bible has changed over time.

Also, look how many different religions there are. Who is right? Simple answer, nobody.

I also don't believe in ghosts, spirits, magic....................i believe that everything has a rational explanation. If it doesnt, it means we just havent figured it out yet, just like a billion things over time that people didnt understand that were eventually figured out.

Now if you wanna ask me how everything started at the beginning of time, dude, who knows. DOn't care at all. Big bang, God, devil, whatever.

 
Joe Bryant said:
Thanks Tim. This is interesting to talk about I think. Thanks for folks being cool about it and having a discussion.

Here's something I'd ask to help me better understand where people are coming from. For folks that don't identify with a particular faith or religion, do you believe there is something beyond our life here? Do you feel that there is a "higher power" or are there "spiritual" things that exist beyond what we see here?

J
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higher power? no

afterlife? no

something that exists beyond what we see here? does dark energy count?

 
joffer said:
Joe Bryant said:
Thanks Tim. This is interesting to talk about I think. Thanks for folks being cool about it and having a discussion.

Here's something I'd ask to help me better understand where people are coming from. For folks that don't identify with a particular faith or religion, do you believe there is something beyond our life here? Do you feel that there is a "higher power" or are there "spiritual" things that exist beyond what we see here?

J
Click to expand...
higher power? no

afterlife? no

something that exists beyond what we see here? does dark energy count?
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Sure.

J

 
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