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Until we do something about guns, don’t expect things to change overni (1 Viewer)

If you dont go to jail for gun possession, you continue to carry guns,.... and people get shot

 
Telling that the cities with the most gun control have the most gun violence. Wake up America! Gun control is the problem, not the solution.

 
Isn't this what we were told by the anti-gun crowd? That more gun control would prevent crime? Chicago is one of THE toughest gun-control cities in the nation, yet here we are, talking about the gun problem in Chicago.

Are there any lessons to be learned from this?

 
Yes. We have to do something about guns in Chicago, as the opening poster suggests.

How about eliminating all those stupid gun laws? That would be doing something about it.

 
DiStefano said:
Yes. We have to do something about guns in Chicago, as the opening poster suggests.

How about eliminating all those stupid gun laws? That would be doing something about it.
Click to expand...
Mmmm...I don't know about ALL of them. Maybe we could start with 2 or 3 and see how it goes from there.

 
How do bad guys get guns, when the laws say they're not supposed to? One major way is the private sales loophole. Convicted felons are supposed to go through background checks, and these checks should, theoretically, prevent them from buying guns. But there are no background checks for private transactions. Those of us who think this loophole is absolute insanity have tried again and again and again and again to get rid of it, but each and every time we are stopped by the NRA and its fanatic supporters. And that is one big reason why there is so much gun violence in Chicago.

 
timschochet said:
How do bad guys get guns, when the laws say they're not supposed to? One major way is the private sales loophole. Convicted felons are supposed to go through background checks, and these checks should, theoretically, prevent them from buying guns. But there are no background checks for private transactions. Those of us who think this loophole is absolute insanity have tried again and again and again and again to get rid of it, but each and every time we are stopped by the NRA and its fanatic supporters. And that is one big reason why there is so much gun violence in Chicago.
Click to expand...
And so little in New York. (43 per 100k in Chi, 4 per 100k in NY).

You usually post b#######, but this is prime, steaming stuff, even by your standards.

 
timschochet said:
How do bad guys get guns, when the laws say they're not supposed to? One major way is the private sales loophole. Convicted felons are supposed to go through background checks, and these checks should, theoretically, prevent them from buying guns. But there are no background checks for private transactions. Those of us who think this loophole is absolute insanity have tried again and again and again and again to get rid of it, but each and every time we are stopped by the NRA and its fanatic supporters. And that is one big reason why there is so much gun violence in Chicago.
Click to expand...
You need a clue. So the NRA is the reason for gun violence in Chicago? You are a joke.

 
timschochet said:
How do bad guys get guns, when the laws say they're not supposed to? One major way is the private sales loophole. Convicted felons are supposed to go through background checks, and these checks should, theoretically, prevent them from buying guns. But there are no background checks for private transactions. Those of us who think this loophole is absolute insanity have tried again and again and again and again to get rid of it, but each and every time we are stopped by the NRA and its fanatic supporters. And that is one big reason why there is so much gun violence in Chicago.
Click to expand...
Timmy....bad people are going to get guns no matter what laws you want to put in place.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Dr Oadi said:
If you dont go to jail for gun possession, you continue to carry guns,.... and people get shot
Click to expand...
Yup. I am tired of hearing gun advocates say if you make guns illegal only outlaws will have them. If we really enforced strict gun laws it would not take very long for a positive effect. When I say enforce, I mean give a person carrying an illegal firearm 10 years with no chance of parole.

This line from the article says it all: "McCarthy noted that Chicago cops have seized 1,500 illegal guns so far this year, but the people caught with the weapons are all too often back on the street all too soon."

 
DiStefano said:
timschochet said:
How do bad guys get guns, when the laws say they're not supposed to? One major way is the private sales loophole. Convicted felons are supposed to go through background checks, and these checks should, theoretically, prevent them from buying guns. But there are no background checks for private transactions. Those of us who think this loophole is absolute insanity have tried again and again and again and again to get rid of it, but each and every time we are stopped by the NRA and its fanatic supporters. And that is one big reason why there is so much gun violence in Chicago.
Click to expand...
And so little in New York. (43 per 100k in Chi, 4 per 100k in NY).

You usually post b#######, but this is prime, steaming stuff, even by your standards.
Click to expand...
The difference in rates between the two cities has nothing to do with the issue that I'm discussing, which is the availability of illegal gun purchases thanks to the private sales loophole.

 
Fla\/\/ed said:
timschochet said:
How do bad guys get guns, when the laws say they're not supposed to? One major way is the private sales loophole. Convicted felons are supposed to go through background checks, and these checks should, theoretically, prevent them from buying guns. But there are no background checks for private transactions. Those of us who think this loophole is absolute insanity have tried again and again and again and again to get rid of it, but each and every time we are stopped by the NRA and its fanatic supporters. And that is one big reason why there is so much gun violence in Chicago.
Click to expand...
You need a clue. So the NRA is the reason for gun violence in Chicago? You are a joke.
Click to expand...
The NRA is at least partly responsible for gun violence everywhere in this country.

 
32 Counter Pass said:
Dr Oadi said:
If you dont go to jail for gun possession, you continue to carry guns,.... and people get shot
Click to expand...
Yup. I am tired of hearing gun advocates say if you make guns illegal only outlaws will have them. If we really enforced strict gun laws it would not take very long for a positive effect. When I say enforce, I mean give a person carrying an illegal firearm 10 years with no chance of parole.

This line from the article says it all: "McCarthy noted that Chicago cops have seized 1,500 illegal guns so far this year, but the people caught with the weapons are all too often back on the street all too soon."
Click to expand...
This is an interesting point as well. Why exactly are people caught with illegal guns given light sentences? Can we all agree that this should not be the case?

 
timschochet said:
DiStefano said:
timschochet said:
How do bad guys get guns, when the laws say they're not supposed to? One major way is the private sales loophole. Convicted felons are supposed to go through background checks, and these checks should, theoretically, prevent them from buying guns. But there are no background checks for private transactions. Those of us who think this loophole is absolute insanity have tried again and again and again and again to get rid of it, but each and every time we are stopped by the NRA and its fanatic supporters. And that is one big reason why there is so much gun violence in Chicago.
Click to expand...
And so little in New York. (43 per 100k in Chi, 4 per 100k in NY).

You usually post b#######, but this is prime, steaming stuff, even by your standards.
Click to expand...
The difference in rates between the two cities has nothing to do with the issue that I'm discussing, which is the availability of illegal gun purchases thanks to the private sales loophole.
Click to expand...
How dense can you be on this subject?

 
timschochet said:
Fla\/\/ed said:
timschochet said:
How do bad guys get guns, when the laws say they're not supposed to? One major way is the private sales loophole. Convicted felons are supposed to go through background checks, and these checks should, theoretically, prevent them from buying guns. But there are no background checks for private transactions. Those of us who think this loophole is absolute insanity have tried again and again and again and again to get rid of it, but each and every time we are stopped by the NRA and its fanatic supporters. And that is one big reason why there is so much gun violence in Chicago.
Click to expand...
You need a clue. So the NRA is the reason for gun violence in Chicago? You are a joke.
Click to expand...
The NRA is at least partly responsible for gun violence everywhere in this country.
Click to expand...
You said they are a big reason why there is so much gun violence in Chicago. Just shut up already.

 
Stinger Ray said:
timschochet said:
DiStefano said:
timschochet said:
How do bad guys get guns, when the laws say they're not supposed to? One major way is the private sales loophole. Convicted felons are supposed to go through background checks, and these checks should, theoretically, prevent them from buying guns. But there are no background checks for private transactions. Those of us who think this loophole is absolute insanity have tried again and again and again and again to get rid of it, but each and every time we are stopped by the NRA and its fanatic supporters. And that is one big reason why there is so much gun violence in Chicago.
Click to expand...
And so little in New York. (43 per 100k in Chi, 4 per 100k in NY).

You usually post b#######, but this is prime, steaming stuff, even by your standards.
Click to expand...
The difference in rates between the two cities has nothing to do with the issue that I'm discussing, which is the availability of illegal gun purchases thanks to the private sales loophole.
Click to expand...
How dense can you be on this subject?
Click to expand...
I don't know. Depends on how hard I try, I suppose.

 
timschochet said:
Stinger Ray said:
timschochet said:
DiStefano said:
timschochet said:
How do bad guys get guns, when the laws say they're not supposed to? One major way is the private sales loophole. Convicted felons are supposed to go through background checks, and these checks should, theoretically, prevent them from buying guns. But there are no background checks for private transactions. Those of us who think this loophole is absolute insanity have tried again and again and again and again to get rid of it, but each and every time we are stopped by the NRA and its fanatic supporters. And that is one big reason why there is so much gun violence in Chicago.
Click to expand...
And so little in New York. (43 per 100k in Chi, 4 per 100k in NY).

You usually post b#######, but this is prime, steaming stuff, even by your standards.
Click to expand...
The difference in rates between the two cities has nothing to do with the issue that I'm discussing, which is the availability of illegal gun purchases thanks to the private sales loophole.
Click to expand...
How dense can you be on this subject?
Click to expand...
I don't know. Depends on how hard I try, I suppose.
Click to expand...
You don't need to try.

 
Stinger Ray said:
timschochet said:
Fla\/\/ed said:
timschochet said:
How do bad guys get guns, when the laws say they're not supposed to? One major way is the private sales loophole. Convicted felons are supposed to go through background checks, and these checks should, theoretically, prevent them from buying guns. But there are no background checks for private transactions. Those of us who think this loophole is absolute insanity have tried again and again and again and again to get rid of it, but each and every time we are stopped by the NRA and its fanatic supporters. And that is one big reason why there is so much gun violence in Chicago.
Click to expand...
You need a clue. So the NRA is the reason for gun violence in Chicago? You are a joke.
Click to expand...
The NRA is at least partly responsible for gun violence everywhere in this country.
Click to expand...
You said they are a big reason why there is so much gun violence in Chicago. Just shut up already.
Click to expand...
Yes I did. But I didn't mean specific to Chicago vs. other cities. It's why there is so much gun violence everywhere.

As to why there is more in Chicago than in other places, if you listen to law enforcement, it's because certain gun laws are either not in place or not being enforced. I don't know what the specifics are, but either way it is very clear that MORE restriction is needed rather than less.

As regards the bolded, no.

 
Stinger Ray said:
timschochet said:
Stinger Ray said:
timschochet said:
DiStefano said:
timschochet said:
How do bad guys get guns, when the laws say they're not supposed to? One major way is the private sales loophole. Convicted felons are supposed to go through background checks, and these checks should, theoretically, prevent them from buying guns. But there are no background checks for private transactions. Those of us who think this loophole is absolute insanity have tried again and again and again and again to get rid of it, but each and every time we are stopped by the NRA and its fanatic supporters. And that is one big reason why there is so much gun violence in Chicago.
Click to expand...
And so little in New York. (43 per 100k in Chi, 4 per 100k in NY).

You usually post b#######, but this is prime, steaming stuff, even by your standards.
Click to expand...
The difference in rates between the two cities has nothing to do with the issue that I'm discussing, which is the availability of illegal gun purchases thanks to the private sales loophole.
Click to expand...
How dense can you be on this subject?
Click to expand...
I don't know. Depends on how hard I try, I suppose.
Click to expand...
You don't need to try.
Click to expand...
Well in that case, not very.

 
The problem isn't guns. The problem is gangs. It's a sad situation on the West and and South side of Chicago. It doesn't get enough attention because the more affluent population of the city has no reason to ever go to the areas of the city where most of the violence occurs.

 
32 Counter Pass said:
Dr Oadi said:
If you dont go to jail for gun possession, you continue to carry guns,.... and people get shot
Click to expand...
Yup. I am tired of hearing gun advocates say if you make guns illegal only outlaws will have them. If we really enforced strict gun laws it would not take very long for a positive effect. When I say enforce, I mean give a person carrying an illegal firearm 10 years with no chance of parole.

This line from the article says it all: "McCarthy noted that Chicago cops have seized 1,500 illegal guns so far this year, but the people caught with the weapons are all too often back on the street all too soon."
Click to expand...
Serious question (b/c I'm lazy and didn't read the article): What constitutes an illegal firearm? Surely some of those are felons carrying a weapon. But that can't be the majority, can it? That would be a crazy high number. Or are most of the 1500 simply cases of people carrying without a license? If that's the case, that activity would be perfectly legal in a number of states, no? I know MN requires a permit to carry (open or concealed), but I think there are several states where open carry is legal without a permit (there might even be some where concealed carry is legal without a permit).
 
timschochet said:
Stinger Ray said:
timschochet said:
Fla\/\/ed said:
timschochet said:
How do bad guys get guns, when the laws say they're not supposed to? One major way is the private sales loophole. Convicted felons are supposed to go through background checks, and these checks should, theoretically, prevent them from buying guns. But there are no background checks for private transactions. Those of us who think this loophole is absolute insanity have tried again and again and again and again to get rid of it, but each and every time we are stopped by the NRA and its fanatic supporters. And that is one big reason why there is so much gun violence in Chicago.
Click to expand...
You need a clue. So the NRA is the reason for gun violence in Chicago? You are a joke.
Click to expand...
The NRA is at least partly responsible for gun violence everywhere in this country.
Click to expand...
You said they are a big reason why there is so much gun violence in Chicago. Just shut up already.
Click to expand...
Yes I did. But I didn't mean specific to Chicago vs. other cities. It's why there is so much gun violence everywhere.As to why there is more in Chicago than in other places, if you listen to law enforcement, it's because certain gun laws are either not in place or not being enforced. I don't know what the specifics are, but either way it is very clear that MORE restriction is needed rather than less.

As regards the bolded, no.
Click to expand...
You're the gift that keeps on giving. You just spoke out of your rear end once again.

 
timschochet said:
Stinger Ray said:
timschochet said:
Fla\/\/ed said:
timschochet said:
How do bad guys get guns, when the laws say they're not supposed to? One major way is the private sales loophole. Convicted felons are supposed to go through background checks, and these checks should, theoretically, prevent them from buying guns. But there are no background checks for private transactions. Those of us who think this loophole is absolute insanity have tried again and again and again and again to get rid of it, but each and every time we are stopped by the NRA and its fanatic supporters. And that is one big reason why there is so much gun violence in Chicago.
Click to expand...
You need a clue. So the NRA is the reason for gun violence in Chicago? You are a joke.
Click to expand...
The NRA is at least partly responsible for gun violence everywhere in this country.
Click to expand...
You said they are a big reason why there is so much gun violence in Chicago. Just shut up already.
Click to expand...
Yes I did. But I didn't mean specific to Chicago vs. other cities. It's why there is so much gun violence everywhere.As to why there is more in Chicago than in other places, if you listen to law enforcement, it's because certain gun laws are either not in place or not being enforced. I don't know what the specifics are, but either way it is very clear that MORE restriction is needed rather than less.

As regards the bolded, no.
Click to expand...
:lol:

 
timschochet said:
Stinger Ray said:
timschochet said:
Fla\/\/ed said:
timschochet said:
How do bad guys get guns, when the laws say they're not supposed to? One major way is the private sales loophole. Convicted felons are supposed to go through background checks, and these checks should, theoretically, prevent them from buying guns. But there are no background checks for private transactions. Those of us who think this loophole is absolute insanity have tried again and again and again and again to get rid of it, but each and every time we are stopped by the NRA and its fanatic supporters. And that is one big reason why there is so much gun violence in Chicago.
Click to expand...
You need a clue. So the NRA is the reason for gun violence in Chicago? You are a joke.
Click to expand...
The NRA is at least partly responsible for gun violence everywhere in this country.
Click to expand...
You said they are a big reason why there is so much gun violence in Chicago. Just shut up already.
Click to expand...
Yes I did. But I didn't mean specific to Chicago vs. other cities. It's why there is so much gun violence everywhere.

As to why there is more in Chicago than in other places, if you listen to law enforcement, it's because certain gun laws are either not in place or not being enforced. I don't know what the specifics are, but either way it is very clear that MORE restriction is needed rather than less.

As regards the bolded, no.
Click to expand...
Yet it is very clear......

 
Tim, literally everything you say is horrible.

And I'm not one of these fat hillbillies saying this either. Just. Shut. The. Fuck. Up.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
timschochet said:
How do bad guys get guns, when the laws say they're not supposed to? One major way is the private sales loophole. Convicted felons are supposed to go through background checks, and these checks should, theoretically, prevent them from buying guns. But there are no background checks for private transactions. Those of us who think this loophole is absolute insanity have tried again and again and again and again to get rid of it, but each and every time we are stopped by the NRA and its fanatic supporters. And that is one big reason why there is so much gun violence in Chicago.
Click to expand...
Let's imagine for a moment your goal is fully achieved, the gun show and private sale loophole is effectively closed. Felons are no longer legally allowed to procure firearms. Will that stop felons from obtaining guns, or might they find other ways to get them? Remember, these are felons. Might they lie and present fraudulent I.D. to obtain guns? Might they steal guns? Might they buy guns from other criminals? Might they have friends, family and girlfriends who will purchase their weapons? Isn't it already common for felons to have false I.D., to commit crimes, and to have girlfriends secure their leases and to have cars and assets in their names so what would be different about guns?

Think this out from your perspective, game theory it a bit, what will be the next step after this one does not fix the problem, but only moves it? What is the next step, and will that one be effective or will it merely shift the playing field once again, and if so, if this is a fools errand, why keep running it?

As a follow up I would like you to imagine yourself a violent, sociopathic thug whose primary goal is to gain status by displaying your dangerousness and dominance over the thugs around you who respect only power. All your rewards, money, cars, sexual access, prestige come from your ability to intimidate and kill, to eliminate the competition for dominance in your world. Might you, a thinking person, a tool user, and a manipulator of the intelligence, wills, and resources around you find other ways to kill? I mean if there have been shoe bombers, pressure cooker bombers, Timothy McVie's and uneducated Afghanies and Iraqies with extremely limited resources who are able to make weapons more effective than guns from common household items then aren't you likely too as well?

This is not an argument to throw one's hands up and give up on problems. Rather it is an argument to ask whether our current paradigms have any value at all. Maybe its time to shift our thinking to finding other solutions.

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
timschochet said:
How do bad guys get guns, when the laws say they're not supposed to? One major way is the private sales loophole. Convicted felons are supposed to go through background checks, and these checks should, theoretically, prevent them from buying guns. But there are no background checks for private transactions. Those of us who think this loophole is absolute insanity have tried again and again and again and again to get rid of it, but each and every time we are stopped by the NRA and its fanatic supporters. And that is one big reason why there is so much gun violence in Chicago.
Click to expand...
Let's imagine for a moment your goal is fully achieved, the gun show and private sale loophole is effectively closed. Felons are no longer legally allowed to procure firearms. Will that stop felons from obtaining guns, or might they find other ways to get them? Remember, these are felons. Might they lie and present fraudulent I.D. to obtain guns? Might they steal guns? Might they buy guns from other criminals? Might they have friends, family and girlfriends who will purchase their weapons? Isn't it already common for felons to have false I.D., to commit crimes, and to have girlfriends secure their leases and to have cars and assets in their names so what would be different about guns?

Think this out from your perspective, game theory it a bit, what will be the next step after this one does not fix the problem, but only moves it? What is the next step, and will that one be effective or will it merely shift the playing field once again, and if so, if this is a fools errand, why keep running it?

As a follow up I would like you to imagine yourself a violent, sociopathic thug whose primary goal is to gain status by displaying your dangerousness and dominance over the thugs around you who respect only power. All your rewards, money, cars, sexual access, prestige come from your ability to intimidate and kill, to eliminate the competition for dominance in your world. Might you, a thinking person, a tool user, and a manipulator of the intelligence, wills, and resources around you find other ways to kill? I mean if there have been shoe bombers, pressure cooker bombers, Timothy McVie's and uneducated Afghanies and Iraqies with extremely limited resources who are able to make weapons more effective than guns from common household items then aren't you likely too as well?

This is not an argument to throw one's hands up and give up on problems. Rather it is an argument to ask whether our current paradigms have any value at all. Maybe its time to shift our thinking to finding other solutions.
Click to expand...
It would obviously require more than closing a loophole.

Guns need to be less available, end of story. I always find it funny for either side to debate gun control, thereby avoiding meaningful action against the obvious problem.

 
matuski said:
Ditkaless Wonders said:
timschochet said:
How do bad guys get guns, when the laws say they're not supposed to? One major way is the private sales loophole. Convicted felons are supposed to go through background checks, and these checks should, theoretically, prevent them from buying guns. But there are no background checks for private transactions. Those of us who think this loophole is absolute insanity have tried again and again and again and again to get rid of it, but each and every time we are stopped by the NRA and its fanatic supporters. And that is one big reason why there is so much gun violence in Chicago.
Click to expand...
Let's imagine for a moment your goal is fully achieved, the gun show and private sale loophole is effectively closed. Felons are no longer legally allowed to procure firearms. Will that stop felons from obtaining guns, or might they find other ways to get them? Remember, these are felons. Might they lie and present fraudulent I.D. to obtain guns? Might they steal guns? Might they buy guns from other criminals? Might they have friends, family and girlfriends who will purchase their weapons? Isn't it already common for felons to have false I.D., to commit crimes, and to have girlfriends secure their leases and to have cars and assets in their names so what would be different about guns?

Think this out from your perspective, game theory it a bit, what will be the next step after this one does not fix the problem, but only moves it? What is the next step, and will that one be effective or will it merely shift the playing field once again, and if so, if this is a fools errand, why keep running it?

As a follow up I would like you to imagine yourself a violent, sociopathic thug whose primary goal is to gain status by displaying your dangerousness and dominance over the thugs around you who respect only power. All your rewards, money, cars, sexual access, prestige come from your ability to intimidate and kill, to eliminate the competition for dominance in your world. Might you, a thinking person, a tool user, and a manipulator of the intelligence, wills, and resources around you find other ways to kill? I mean if there have been shoe bombers, pressure cooker bombers, Timothy McVie's and uneducated Afghanies and Iraqies with extremely limited resources who are able to make weapons more effective than guns from common household items then aren't you likely too as well?

This is not an argument to throw one's hands up and give up on problems. Rather it is an argument to ask whether our current paradigms have any value at all. Maybe its time to shift our thinking to finding other solutions.
Click to expand...
It would obviously require more than closing a loophole.

Guns need to be less available, end of story. I always find it funny for either side to debate gun control, thereby avoiding meaningful action against the obvious problem.
Click to expand...
Maybe the government should just have the weapons, that way everyone will be safer.

 
matuski said:
Ditkaless Wonders said:
timschochet said:
How do bad guys get guns, when the laws say they're not supposed to? One major way is the private sales loophole. Convicted felons are supposed to go through background checks, and these checks should, theoretically, prevent them from buying guns. But there are no background checks for private transactions. Those of us who think this loophole is absolute insanity have tried again and again and again and again to get rid of it, but each and every time we are stopped by the NRA and its fanatic supporters. And that is one big reason why there is so much gun violence in Chicago.
Click to expand...
Let's imagine for a moment your goal is fully achieved, the gun show and private sale loophole is effectively closed. Felons are no longer legally allowed to procure firearms. Will that stop felons from obtaining guns, or might they find other ways to get them? Remember, these are felons. Might they lie and present fraudulent I.D. to obtain guns? Might they steal guns? Might they buy guns from other criminals? Might they have friends, family and girlfriends who will purchase their weapons? Isn't it already common for felons to have false I.D., to commit crimes, and to have girlfriends secure their leases and to have cars and assets in their names so what would be different about guns? Think this out from your perspective, game theory it a bit, what will be the next step after this one does not fix the problem, but only moves it? What is the next step, and will that one be effective or will it merely shift the playing field once again, and if so, if this is a fools errand, why keep running it?

As a follow up I would like you to imagine yourself a violent, sociopathic thug whose primary goal is to gain status by displaying your dangerousness and dominance over the thugs around you who respect only power. All your rewards, money, cars, sexual access, prestige come from your ability to intimidate and kill, to eliminate the competition for dominance in your world. Might you, a thinking person, a tool user, and a manipulator of the intelligence, wills, and resources around you find other ways to kill? I mean if there have been shoe bombers, pressure cooker bombers, Timothy McVie's and uneducated Afghanies and Iraqies with extremely limited resources who are able to make weapons more effective than guns from common household items then aren't you likely too as well?

This is not an argument to throw one's hands up and give up on problems. Rather it is an argument to ask whether our current paradigms have any value at all. Maybe its time to shift our thinking to finding other solutions.
Click to expand...
It would obviously require more than closing a loophole.

Guns need to be less available, end of story. I always find it funny for either side to debate gun control, thereby avoiding meaningful action against the obvious problem.
Click to expand...
Agreed. It's amazing how many people want to treat the symptoms rather than the disease. We have a culture that glorifies toughness, violence and ego and trivializes the value of life at every turn. We encourage poor decisions and create hopelessness.

And then rather than doing the really hard work of addressing these issues and acknowledging that we have a failed culture, we choose to try to put ineffective band aids on things by looking at the tools of destruction rather than the fools of destruction. Fixing gun laws is a fools errand, what we need to do is fix people.

 
GroveDiesel said:
matuski said:
Ditkaless Wonders said:
timschochet said:
How do bad guys get guns, when the laws say they're not supposed to? One major way is the private sales loophole. Convicted felons are supposed to go through background checks, and these checks should, theoretically, prevent them from buying guns. But there are no background checks for private transactions. Those of us who think this loophole is absolute insanity have tried again and again and again and again to get rid of it, but each and every time we are stopped by the NRA and its fanatic supporters. And that is one big reason why there is so much gun violence in Chicago.
Click to expand...
Let's imagine for a moment your goal is fully achieved, the gun show and private sale loophole is effectively closed. Felons are no longer legally allowed to procure firearms. Will that stop felons from obtaining guns, or might they find other ways to get them? Remember, these are felons. Might they lie and present fraudulent I.D. to obtain guns? Might they steal guns? Might they buy guns from other criminals? Might they have friends, family and girlfriends who will purchase their weapons? Isn't it already common for felons to have false I.D., to commit crimes, and to have girlfriends secure their leases and to have cars and assets in their names so what would be different about guns? Think this out from your perspective, game theory it a bit, what will be the next step after this one does not fix the problem, but only moves it? What is the next step, and will that one be effective or will it merely shift the playing field once again, and if so, if this is a fools errand, why keep running it?

As a follow up I would like you to imagine yourself a violent, sociopathic thug whose primary goal is to gain status by displaying your dangerousness and dominance over the thugs around you who respect only power. All your rewards, money, cars, sexual access, prestige come from your ability to intimidate and kill, to eliminate the competition for dominance in your world. Might you, a thinking person, a tool user, and a manipulator of the intelligence, wills, and resources around you find other ways to kill? I mean if there have been shoe bombers, pressure cooker bombers, Timothy McVie's and uneducated Afghanies and Iraqies with extremely limited resources who are able to make weapons more effective than guns from common household items then aren't you likely too as well?

This is not an argument to throw one's hands up and give up on problems. Rather it is an argument to ask whether our current paradigms have any value at all. Maybe its time to shift our thinking to finding other solutions.
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It would obviously require more than closing a loophole.

Guns need to be less available, end of story. I always find it funny for either side to debate gun control, thereby avoiding meaningful action against the obvious problem.
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Agreed. It's amazing how many people want to treat the symptoms rather than the disease. We have a culture that glorifies toughness, violence and ego and trivializes the value of life at every turn. We encourage poor decisions and create hopelessness. And then rather than doing the really hard work of addressing these issues and acknowledging that we have a failed culture, we choose to try to put ineffective band aids on things by looking at the tools of destruction rather than the fools of destruction. Fixing gun laws is a fools errand, what we need to do is fix people.
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That's probably the best point made in this thread so far. A gun is simply a tool, but it's use is determined by whoever is using it.
 
timschochet said:
Fla\/\/ed said:
timschochet said:
How do bad guys get guns, when the laws say they're not supposed to? One major way is the private sales loophole. Convicted felons are supposed to go through background checks, and these checks should, theoretically, prevent them from buying guns. But there are no background checks for private transactions. Those of us who think this loophole is absolute insanity have tried again and again and again and again to get rid of it, but each and every time we are stopped by the NRA and its fanatic supporters. And that is one big reason why there is so much gun violence in Chicago.
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You need a clue. So the NRA is the reason for gun violence in Chicago? You are a joke.
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The NRA is at least partly responsible for gun violence everywhere in this country.
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Tim, I don't know what your motivation is, but that is one of the most asinine statements that I have ever read in this forum.

 
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