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Dems pushing to limit filibusters (1 Viewer)

Considering the political landscape now, isn't this a little short sighted by the Dems?

They're not always going to be in power and the trends point to sooner rather than later for that switch to happen.

(Of course there is plenty of time for Republicans to screw that up)

 
Considering the political landscape now, isn't this a little short sighted by the Dems?

They're not always going to be in power and the trends point to sooner rather than later for that switch to happen.

(Of course there is plenty of time for Republicans to screw that up)
That's exactly why they're doing it now. Internal numbers suggest they'll lose control of the Senate in 2014. They have 11 months to pack the courts and get whatever they can pushed through now before they lose the majority. 2014-2016 they'll just toil under Republican rule and survive by Obama's veto. They plan on retaking the Senate, and possibly the House, in 2016 riding the wave of votes for President Hillary Clinton.

 
Party politics aside, I like this. Given the current hyper-partisan mood of the nation, it's ridiculous to hold up judicial appointments like we do. Hopefully people will take a step back and realize that this is a good thing for the justice system and not just a partisan power grab, although it probably is that too.

 
So the people that were against changing the filibuster rule 8 years ago are now for it and those that were for changing the filibuster rule are now against it.

 
It was okay when the Republicans tried to do this a while back, but obviously things are totally different now and the Democrats are way out of line here.

 
It was okay when the Republicans tried to do this a while back, but obviously things are totally different now and the Democrats are way out of line here.
Guilty in reverse.

For me the distinction is that in many cases there are no actual objections to the nominees today, and the filibuster has been used to generically shut down the Senate's work since Obama came to office. They aren't even trying to put forth good arguments anymore (Obama filling empty seats is packing the court).

So even knowing that the next time Republicans are in power they'll go the next step and end the filibuster for all legislation as well as Supreme Court nominees I think it's time to pull the trigger.

Would have been nice if the Senate could have maintained the moderating function it's had for 200+ years, but that's not the world we live in and a Senate that functions more like the House is better than a Senate that doesn't function at all.

 
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Yeah, I feel like what's happening with the D.C. Circuit right now is pretty outrageous. I think I'm in favor of changing the rules, even though I fully realize it could end up screwing the liberals at some point.

 
Yeah, I feel like what's happening with the D.C. Circuit right now is pretty outrageous. I think I'm in favor of changing the rules, even though I fully realize it could end up screwing the liberals at some point.
So why weren't the Dems behind this 8 years ago? I'm fine if people want to make a change, but how about trying to do at some time other than when it benefits your side and hurts the other side.

 
Yeah, I feel like what's happening with the D.C. Circuit right now is pretty outrageous. I think I'm in favor of changing the rules, even though I fully realize it could end up screwing the liberals at some point.
So why weren't the Dems behind this 8 years ago? I'm fine if people want to make a change, but how about trying to do at some time other than when it benefits your side and hurts the other side.
Honestly, while there is no doubt that this is simply a partisan game, I'm all for passing some legislation to limit filibusters. If it bites the Democrats down the road, good.

I hope limiting corporate and private money in elections is next, no matter who is driving the change.

 
Yeah, I feel like what's happening with the D.C. Circuit right now is pretty outrageous. I think I'm in favor of changing the rules, even though I fully realize it could end up screwing the liberals at some point.
So why weren't the Dems behind this 8 years ago? I'm fine if people want to make a change, but how about trying to do at some time other than when it benefits your side and hurts the other side.
I think everyone agrees that this is all about politics. Parties don't do stuff to deliberately diminish their power without a good reason.

 
One of my favorite episodes of the west wing was when some old dude to talked for 5 days trying to stop some bill from being passed

 
Three DC Circuit judges blocked in 230 years before Obama. 20 blocked in 4.5 years since.
I didn't know it was this bad.

Hard to make a "why now?" argument if this is the case.
I don't know what he means by "20 blocked." I think there have only been five nominees to the D.C. Circuit during Obama's administration, and so far one has gotten through.
Hold on, I may have limited it to the DC Court in error.

ETA: Yeah ... I read "District Court" judges to mean DC, but I think maybe it means all Federal Districts? I'm not clear enough on my judicial hierarchy to sort it out with some more digging though so hopefully someone can clean up my loose end there.

Regardless 3 in 230 years and 20 since Obama came to office holds.

 
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So the people that were against changing the filibuster rule 8 years ago are now for it and those that were for changing the filibuster rule are now against it.
Yes.

Reid’s move is a reversal of his position in 2005, when he was minority leader and fought the GOP majority’s bid to change rules on a party-line vote. A bipartisan, rump caucus led by McCain defused that effort.

At the time, Sen. Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) was the No. 2 GOP leader and helped push the effort to eliminate filibusters on the George W. Bush White House’s judicial selections. Eight years later, McConnell, now the minority leader, has grown publicly furious over Reid’s threats to use the same maneuver.
"Rump caucus" is funny by the way.

 
Three DC Circuit judges blocked in 230 years before Obama. 20 blocked in 4.5 years since.
I didn't know it was this bad.

Hard to make a "why now?" argument if this is the case.
I don't know what he means by "20 blocked." I think there have only been five nominees to the D.C. Circuit during Obama's administration, and so far one has gotten through.
Hold on, I may have limited it to the DC Court in error.

ETA: Yeah ... I read "District Court" judges to mean DC, but I think maybe it means all Federal Districts? I'm not clear enough on my judicial hierarchy to sort it out with some more digging though so hopefully someone can clean up my loose end there.

Regardless 3 in 230 years and 20 since Obama came to office holds.
Yeah that means all district court judges nationally. Where did you get the numbers from?

If you're comparing apples to apples- and it sounds like you are- then I agree. Three in 230 years vs. 20 in 5 years is really all you need to know to answer the "why now?" question.

 
Three DC Circuit judges blocked in 230 years before Obama. 20 blocked in 4.5 years since.
I didn't know it was this bad.

Hard to make a "why now?" argument if this is the case.
I don't know what he means by "20 blocked." I think there have only been five nominees to the D.C. Circuit during Obama's administration, and so far one has gotten through.
Hold on, I may have limited it to the DC Court in error.

ETA: Yeah ... I read "District Court" judges to mean DC, but I think maybe it means all Federal Districts? I'm not clear enough on my judicial hierarchy to sort it out with some more digging though so hopefully someone can clean up my loose end there.

Regardless 3 in 230 years and 20 since Obama came to office holds.
Maybe you can cite to your source -- those numbers just don't seem right.

 
Three DC Circuit judges blocked in 230 years before Obama. 20 blocked in 4.5 years since.
LInk?

Three DC Circuit judges blocked in 230 years before Obama. 20 blocked in 4.5 years since.
I didn't know it was this bad.

Hard to make a "why now?" argument if this is the case.
I don't know what he means by "20 blocked." I think there have only been five nominees to the D.C. Circuit during Obama's administration, and so far one has gotten through.
Hold on, I may have limited it to the DC Court in error.

ETA: Yeah ... I read "District Court" judges to mean DC, but I think maybe it means all Federal Districts? I'm not clear enough on my judicial hierarchy to sort it out with some more digging though so hopefully someone can clean up my loose end there.

Regardless 3 in 230 years and 20 since Obama came to office holds.
You're still off. Obama has only had 3 blocked from what I can tell from all the news articles. Bush had 5 blocked, and 2 failed. Hardly the massive swing you're indicating.

 
Obama has only had 3 blocked from what I can tell from all the news articles.
There are three pending nominations that are currently being held up. There was another Obama nomination to the D.C. Circuit that was withdrawn earlier this year after having been filibustered.

The primary difference here that makes this somewhat unprecedented is that the Republicans haven't given any indication that they think any of the three pending judges are deficient in any way. They're just holding them up because they claim the D.C. Circuit doesn't need any more judges right now.

 
I can't find the entire quote I read just 15 minutes ago, but here's the relevant bit...

Only 23 district court nominations have been filibustered in the history of the country, with 20 coming during Obama administration, Reid said.
And Harry Reid lies...

Failed district court nomineesBush nominated 23 people for 23 current or future federal district judgeships who never were confirmed by the U.S. Senate.[23] Like the appellate court nominations mentioned above, many of these nominees were blocked by Democrats in the Senate Judiciary Committee, which was controlled by the Democrats four out the eight years that Bush was in office. Twenty-one of these twenty-three nominees were blocked in the Democratic 110th Congress. Republicans claimed at the time that the Democrats were trying to keep these district court positions open for a future Democratic president to fill. Eventually, Bush declined to make nominations for 23 other current or future federal district judgeships in the 110th Congress.

Of the 23 federal district judgeship vacancies with actual nominees in place, 2 eventually were filled with a different Bush nominee, 14 so far have been filled with Barack Obama nominees, 4 remain open, 1 became moot when the district judge decided not to retire and 2 never ended up becoming vacant because the district judge who had it never received confirmation to be elevated to an appellate court. In addition, two of Bush's 23 failed district court nominees, Oregon's Marco Hernandez and Illinois' John J. Tharp,[24] were subsequently renominated by Obama to federal district judgeships. They both were confirmed in the 112th Congress.
 
I can't find the entire quote I read just 15 minutes ago, but here's the relevant bit...

Only 23 district court nominations have been filibustered in the history of the country, with 20 coming during Obama administration, Reid said.
OK, I don't know if what Reid says is true, but district court judges are the lowest-level trial judges. The D.C. Circuit is an appeals court. He's using a statistic that doesn't seem 100% applicable to what has prompted the Dems to reconsider the filibuster rules.

 
I can't find the entire quote I read just 15 minutes ago, but here's the relevant bit...

Only 23 district court nominations have been filibustered in the history of the country, with 20 coming during Obama administration, Reid said.
And Harry Reid lies...
Failed district court nominees

Bush nominated 23 people for 23 current or future federal district judgeships who never were confirmed by the U.S. Senate.%5B23%5D Like the appellate court nominations mentioned above, many of these nominees were blocked by Democrats in the Senate Judiciary Committee, which was controlled by the Democrats four out the eight years that Bush was in office. Twenty-one of these twenty-three nominees were blocked in the Democratic 110th Congress. Republicans claimed at the time that the Democrats were trying to keep these district court positions open for a future Democratic president to fill. Eventually, Bush declined to make nominations for 23 other current or future federal district judgeships in the 110th Congress.

Of the 23 federal district judgeship vacancies with actual nominees in place, 2 eventually were filled with a different Bush nominee, 14 so far have been filled with Barack Obama nominees, 4 remain open, 1 became moot when the district judge decided not to retire and 2 never ended up becoming vacant because the district judge who had it never received confirmation to be elevated to an appellate court. In addition, two of Bush's 23 failed district court nominees, Oregon's Marco Hernandez and Illinois' John J. Tharp,%5B24%5D were subsequently renominated by Obama to federal district judgeships. They both were confirmed in the 112th Congress.
No, those weren't filibusters. Harry Reid's stat seems misleading, but probably isn't a "lie."

 
Rayderr, what's the link on that? I like my partisanship to be accurate.

Regardless... can we all agree that a President should be able to nominate executive branch and judicial appointees of his choosing with a reasonable expectation that they'll be confirmed barring an egregious flaw? (At least sub-Supreme Court?)

 
Rayderr, what's the link on that? I like my partisanship to be accurate.

Regardless... can we all agree that a President should be able to nominate executive branch and judicial appointees of his choosing with a reasonable expectation that they'll be confirmed barring an egregious flaw? (At least sub-Supreme Court?)
No, I don't necessarily agree with that as a general rule.

 
Rayderr, what's the link on that? I like my partisanship to be accurate.

Regardless... can we all agree that a President should be able to nominate executive branch and judicial appointees of his choosing with a reasonable expectation that they'll be confirmed barring an egregious flaw? (At least sub-Supreme Court?)
Already linked it once, but here it is again.

 
The writing on the wall is they may lose the Senate so they are going to slam through as many nominees as they can now.

Obamacare is an anchor, but I think they are overdoing it with the panic level.

 
Rayderr, what's the link on that? I like my partisanship to be accurate.

Regardless... can we all agree that a President should be able to nominate executive branch and judicial appointees of his choosing with a reasonable expectation that they'll be confirmed barring an egregious flaw? (At least sub-Supreme Court?)
No, I don't necessarily agree with that as a general rule.
Proceed counselor.

 
It's from July 14th, but at that point, Politifact says 1,560 obama appointees approved, 69 not approved (including those that withdrew regardless of reason.

"The president has had 1,540 of his nominations confirmed, only four defeated."Mitch McConnell on Sunday, July 14th, 2013 in an interview on 'Meet the Press'

Obama has had 1,540 nominations confirmed and only 4 defeated, says McConnell
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Share this story:

The long-running Senate battle between Democrats and Republicans over the filibuster and delays in processing President Barack Obama’s nominations came to the brink this past week.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., threatened to use the so-called nuclear option and set aside the 60-vote majority needed to close debate and bring a nomination to the floor. Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., said if Reid did that, he was "going to be remembered as the worst leader of the Senate ever."

The two sides healed the breach after many urgent phone calls and a meeting of every senator in the Old Senate Chamber, a room one lawmaker called "hallowed ground."

But before the return to relative civility, McConnell had been on NBC’s Meet the Press where he argued that the president had done pretty well for himself. "What is the problem here?" McConnell asked. "The president has had 1,540 of his nominations confirmed, only four defeated."

McConnell’s office said he meant to say 1,560. We checked, and he did use the correct number just three days earlier. We also looked at the Library of Congress nominations database for Obama’s first and second terms and confirmed McConnell’s numbers.

But what drew our attention was McConnell’s claim that only four had been defeated. That number refers to people who failed on a measure to end debate (called "cloture) and send their names to the floor for a simple majority vote. It takes 60 votes to end debate.

McConnell’s list includes Craig Becker (National Labor Relations Board), Caitlin Joan Halligan (U.S. Circuit judge), Goodwin Liu (U.S. Circuit judge), and Richard Cordray (director, Bureau of Consumer Financial Protection).

However, that doesn’t account for many of the people Obama put forward who have withdrawn due to opposition from Senate Republicans.

"McConnell is using misleading numbers," said Ian Ostrander, a political scientist at Texas Tech University. "He’s taking advantage of the fact that very few nominations actually fail through a direct vote."

There are many ways to stymie a nomination. There is the threat of filibuster which requires clearing the 60-vote majority to end debate.

Alternatively, opponents can run out the clock and return the nomination to the White House with no vote at all, generally right before the summer recess or at the end of the year.

Or an individual senator, anonymously or publicly, can place a hold and block a nomination from moving forward.

Ostrander said that the White House might withdraw a nomination, or never put someone’s name forward if minority opposition seems too strong. He cited the examples of Susan Rice, Obama’s first choice for Secretary of State, and Elizabeth Warren, his first pick to head the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. Neither was ever formally nominated.

Republicans didn’t like key aspects of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau in the first place. In May 2011, 44 GOP senators sent a letter to the administration saying they "will not support the consideration of any nominee, regardless of party affiliation" until changes were made. When Obama replaced Warren with Richard Cordray, it made no difference in the Republican position.

Cordray was the first stalled nominee to win confirmation immediately after the deal that averted the crisis in the Senate.

Occasionally, Ostrander said, the nominee on their own steps back due to long delays. He put Federal Reserve Board nominee Peter Diamond in this category. Diamond, a Nobel Prize-winning economist, was nominated three times. Twice in 2010, the Senate did not reject him; it simply made no decision and returned the nomination to the White House.

Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Ala., worked hard against the nomination and never backed down. The White House nominated Diamond a third time in June 2011, but he withdrew saying he saw that his name would never make it to the Senate floor.

Ostrander has studied more than two decades of non-judicial nominations. His doctoral thesis: Winning the Waiting Game: Senatorial Delay in Executive Nominations.

Ostrander has detailed at what point nominations failed in the nomination process: 84 percent stalled or were withdrawn before going before a committee. Another 0.03 percent were rejected by a committee vote, while 0.01 percent were rejected in a floor vote.

"McConnell is choosing to count as failures cases that only account for a small fraction of overall failures," Ostrander said.

Overall, 69 of Obama’s nominees withdrew for any reason since 2009. During the first term, Ostrander said he counts 38 who likely pulled out under pressure from Republican opposition.

We reviewed in detail 12 instances (beyond McConnell’s four) where nominees withdrew after encountering opposition, either to their specific background or to Obama’s policies. Those include Donald Berwick to head the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, Erroll Southers to lead for the Transportation Security Administration, Michael Mundaca for the Treasury Department’s Office of Tax Policy, and Dawn Johnsen to be assistant attorney general, among others.

There is an additional issue with McConnell’s measure of Obama’s success rate. We contacted five other political scientists, and they agreed that McConnell’s statement overlooked the impact of delayed nominations even if they ultimately win confirmation.

In the book Defending the Filibuster: The Soul of the Senate, Richard A. Arenberg and Robert B. Dove said the filibuster is a moderating force and a check on executive power. We asked Arenberg if McConnell’s point about the president’s track record on confirmations was valid.

"Clearly, it's not only the final outcome that matters," Arenberg said. "Delay in confirmation can certainly hamper an executive agency."

Michael Gerhardt, a law professor at the University of North Carolina School of Law, has studied the nomination process. "The problem is not just the delays; it is the limited authority of an acting or temporary head," Gerhardt said. "Here, the statistics might not accurately capture the harm done to the executive branch."

Our ruling

McConnell said Obama faced no real problems getting his nominees confirmed by the Senate, saying that only four of 1,540 nominations had been defeated. His office later said he misspoke and the number should have been 1,560.

We find he's partially accurate but is leaving out some important details. Yes, it's true that when nominations reach a final vote, the vast majority have been approved by the Senate. But this accounting ignores those who withdrew before a vote, including the estimated 38 who withdrew after Republican opposition. It also does not account for high-profile figures such as Susan Rice who were never nominated because of opposition.

We rate the claim Half True.
 
They aren't even trying to put forth good arguments anymore (Obama filling empty seats is packing the court).
I may be mistaken, but I believe the term "packing the court" only refers to situations in which nominees are to create new seats, not fill empty ones.

 
Rayderr, what's the link on that? I like my partisanship to be accurate.

Regardless... can we all agree that a President should be able to nominate executive branch and judicial appointees of his choosing with a reasonable expectation that they'll be confirmed barring an egregious flaw? (At least sub-Supreme Court?)
No, I don't necessarily agree with that as a general rule.
Proceed counselor.
I don't think Senate confirmation should just be a rubber stamp. :shrug: Senators should be able to vote against nominees that they believe to be ideologically extreme.

 
The situation with the overwhelmed circuits is unfortunate. I don't approve of endlessly stalling nominees no matter which party does it. But I also really can't fault one party for it when they're paying back the reverse situation from a few years prior, either.

And if Harry Reid wants to go nuclear, I'm ok with it. I've enjoyed the schadenfreude watching ObamaCare detonate. Having this work in his favor for 11 months and then watch him and the others that back him cry about it being used against them for another dozen years after sounds like a good investment for my future enjoyment.

 
They aren't even trying to put forth good arguments anymore (Obama filling empty seats is packing the court).
I may be mistaken, but I believe the term "packing the court" only refers to situations in which nominees are to create new seats, not fill empty ones.
Typically that's the case. But in this instance the vacancies are not new seats. (Though I've been WREUNG twice today already. So caveat emptor.)

 
And if Harry Reid wants to go nuclear, I'm ok with it. I've enjoyed the schadenfreude watching ObamaCare detonate. Having this work in his favor for 11 months and then watch him and the others that back him cry about it being used against them for another dozen years after sounds like a good investment for my future enjoyment.
Dems hold the White House until January 2017, that's the earliest that this could really blow up in their faces.

 
They aren't even trying to put forth good arguments anymore (Obama filling empty seats is packing the court).
I may be mistaken, but I believe the term "packing the court" only refers to situations in which nominees are to create new seats, not fill empty ones.
Typically that's the case. But in this instance the vacancies are not new seats. (Though I've been WREUNG twice today already. So caveat emptor.)
You guys are just speaking past each other, you're in agreement here but Sarnoff missed that wdcrob was quoting B.S. Republican talking points.

 
Yeah, I feel like what's happening with the D.C. Circuit right now is pretty outrageous. I think I'm in favor of changing the rules, even though I fully realize it could end up screwing the liberals at some point.
I'm pretty sure we've even argued in the past with me saying that presidents should generally get their nominees. As Obama might say, elections have consequences.

But if Janice Rogers Brown can get on the DC Circuit, it's hard to imagine who might be too liberal for it.

 
"Rules for thee but not for me." Just another case of gutter politics from progressives. I'd expect nothing less.

 
I expect Republicans will pull the plug for legislation if they get the chance. With the House gerrymandered for another decade it doesn't really help Democrats, but it's the next logical step for Republicans.

It would give the party in power the ability to rewrite anything they wanted. I don't think that would be as good for the country as many seem to think, but it would definitely shake things up.

 
I was listening to talk radio today and they were up in arms over this. They claim that this proves that the Democrats are hell-bent on only pursuing their own agenda, and not reaching across the aisle. My conservative friends agree and are ready to start impeachment proceedings. While I wouldn't go that far, I think this might be the most important move made by a Senate majority in the history of the United States and quite possibly this and all surrounding galaxies.

 
I was listening to talk radio today and they were up in arms over this. They claim that this proves that the Democrats are hell-bent on only pursuing their own agenda, and not reaching across the aisle. My conservative friends agree and are ready to start impeachment proceedings. While I wouldn't go that far, I think this might be the most important move made by a Senate majority in the history of the United States and quite possibly this and all surrounding galaxies.
Nah. Some cute chick shot a lion and took a picture smiling. There are far more important things going on right now.

 

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