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Oakland LB situation... (1 Viewer)

Warpig

Footballguy
Was curious what people's thoughts are on how the Oakland LB situation will play out. They have some solid LBs already then they add Mack.

I can't help but think that Mack may take over at SLB if they truly wanna use him in the Von Miller mold. Roach man's the middle. Anyone think Sio Moore goes to WLB? Or will Burnett keep the WLB for another year since he's been solid? Seems like they have the pieces to plug and play and rotate if they want, but ofcourse that would suck for FF.

That defense has the pieces to be scary. I'm interested in seeing how the LB corps shake out.

 
I already have both Burnett and Roach, so I shied away from drafting Mack because of how muddled that situation is in Oakland. Hope I made the right decision!

 
Burnett is done with Mack being drafted. I don't see Moore sitting over him. Moore will move to the WLB and Mack on the SLB. Both will produce and they can flop them in different packages. I think Moore could be best LB fantasy wise on the Raiders. Get him now.

 
Burnett is done with Mack being drafted. I don't see Moore sitting over him. Moore will move to the WLB and Mack on the SLB. Both will produce and they can flop them in different packages. I think Moore could be best LB fantasy wise on the Raiders. Get him now.
I think Burnett still has enough to muddy the situation for himself, Sio, and Roach. I don't think they split snaps evenly between them, but its not as if Burnett is just going to disappear.

 
Burnett is done with Mack being drafted. I don't see Moore sitting over him. Moore will move to the WLB and Mack on the SLB. Both will produce and they can flop them in different packages. I think Moore could be best LB fantasy wise on the Raiders. Get him now.
This is exactly what should happen. Get him even if just for the upside.

 
I would say that Roach and Mack are the LBs to own. Mack is a versatile player with great pass-rushing skills, instinctive abilities that makes him effective against the run, and "underrated" coverage abilities that are talked about so often that I don't think we can call them underrated any longer, so I would expect him to get a lot of snaps. I'm pretty sure Tarver will use a few different looks so I think it is a bit too simplified to say that Mack will play WLB or that Mack will play SLB. In some looks he might line up as RDE, some times at WLB, and some times at SLB. He might even move inside on some 3-4 packages. But with that being said I would expect their base 4-3 to include Mack at WLB and Moore at SLB.

Sio Moore played SLB last year where he played 57% of the snaps and his primary use was as a pass rusher. Burnett played WLB and played 91% of the snaps, but his skill-set is best suited for pass coverage as he struggles against the run. He can be disruptive in the backfield but he misses too many tackles. Roach is a bit of the opposite as he is not great in pass coverage but he excels against the run. And then they also have Miles Burris who adds depth as a physical guy against the run. In obvious pass situations I could see them play nickel with Mack at RDE, Moore as a pass rusher, and Burnett or Roach in pass coverage. Or they can have a 3-4 (they drafted a NT in the 4th) with Mack and Moore/Woodley at OLB and Burnett and Roach inside. On running downs you could see Mack, Roach and any one of Burnett/Burris/Moore. Roach played every snap last year. If he does so again this year, both Moore and Burnett would likely suffer. Alternatively you could see everyone lose snaps due to the addition of Mack, but for sure Burnett is the one who is most likely to go down drastically from his 91% last season. I'm pretty certain that he will become a situational role player this coming season. I would also say that Moore needs to show himself to be much more effective against the run if he is to get meaningful playing time for fantasy purposes. His tackling efficiency and run stop percentage was near the bottom for 4-3 outside linebackers last season. He was very productive in college, but I guess the question is if he has the range and closing speed to do the same in the NFL.

 
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I would say that Roach and Mack are the LBs to own. Mack is a versatile player with great pass-rushing skills, instinctive abilities that makes him effective against the run, and "underrated" coverage abilities that are talked about so often that I don't think we can call them underrated any longer, so I would expect him to get a lot of snaps. I'm pretty sure Tarver will use a few different looks so I think it is a bit too simplified to say that Mack will play WLB or that Mack will play SLB. In some looks he might line up as RDE, some times at WLB, and some times at SLB. He might even move inside on some 3-4 packages. But with that being said I would expect their base 4-3 to include Mack at WLB and Moore at SLB.

Sio Moore played SLB last year where he played 57% of the snaps and his primary use was as a pass rusher. Burnett played WLB and played 91% of the snaps, but his skill-set is best suited for pass coverage as he struggles against the run. He can be disruptive in the backfield but he misses too many tackles. Roach is a bit of the opposite as he is not great in pass coverage but he excels against the run. And then they also have Miles Burris who adds depth as a physical guy against the run. In obvious pass situations I could see them play nickel with Mack at RDE, Moore as a pass rusher, and Burnett or Roach in pass coverage. Or they can have a 3-4 (they drafted a NT in the 4th) with Mack and Moore/Woodley at OLB and Burnett and Roach inside. On running downs you could see Mack, Roach and any one of Burnett/Burris/Moore. Roach played every snap last year. If he does so again this year, both Moore and Burnett would likely suffer. Alternatively you could see everyone lose snaps due to the addition of Mack, but for sure Burnett is the one who is most likely to go down drastically from his 91% last season. I'm pretty certain that he will become a situational role player this coming season. I would also say that Moore needs to show himself to be much more effective against the run if he is to get meaningful playing time for fantasy purposes. His tackling efficiency and run stop percentage was near the bottom for 4-3 outside linebackers last season. He was very productive in college, but I guess the question is if he has the range and closing speed to do the same in the NFL.
I watched alot of the Raiders game and I think Moore had a good season with the amount of time he played. He graded out well against the run. Look below if you don't believe me. The reason why the Raiders like him is he can play both LBer positions. Moore will move over to WLB spot and play alot. When Mack lines up at DE Moore will play the strong side. He will be a very good sleeper this year. Everyone is talking up Mack and forgetting about Moore.

2013 All Rookie Team by ProFootballFocus

Edge Rushers: Ziggy Ansah, DET (-0.7) and Sio Moore, OAK (+8.6)

Prior to the season we felt Ansah might get pushed around in the running game but make up for that with his ability to get pressure. As it transpired, it was the other way around with the first-rounder doing a solid job holding his edge but being flattered by his sack numbers; his nine being accompanied by only 25 other hits or hurries. Moore’s play was very similar with the majority of his positive grade coming against the run and being slightly below average as a rusher.

 
Here is another thing about Moore and the upcoming season posted by ProFootballForcast

[SIZE=small]The next defensive player went off of the board when Oakland selected pass rusher extraordinaire Khalil Mack with the number five overall pick in the draft. Early reports have Mack penciled in as a base SAM who would then kick down to defensive end in the sub-packages (like how Denver uses Von Miller). But if you prefer to roster sure tacklers over up-and-down sack artists, another guy to watch in Oakland may be Sio Moore. Moore was Oakland’s SAM last season when he was PFF’s eighth rated (+8.6) 4-3 outside linebacker. If Moore has to flip over to the WILL in the base to accommodate Mack and continues to play like he did last season, he should have more tackles this season. Last season’s WILL, Kevin Burnett, seems to be the odd man out for now.[/SIZE]

 
Yes, you are right that they have rated Moore highly in run defense, but to me this grading for 4-3 OLBs is quite heavily tilted in favor of SLBs - likely because they have a more limited assignment in run defense and aren't asked to make tackles in the open field as much as WLBs are asked to do. Von Miller is by far ranked as the best OLB against the run, followed by Kevin Burnett, Dont'a Hightower, James Harrison, Akeem Ayers, Sio Moore, Joplo Bartu, Lavonte David, Koa Misi and Malcolm Smith at #10. With the exception of Lavonte David it's not exactly a who's who of the premier tackling machines in the NFL. And in the bottom third you will find guys like Paul Worrilow, DeAndre Levy, Jerod Mayo, Chad Greenway and Philip Wheeler, so while I'm sure their grades have some value, one has to be careful about how one uses them.

But while I question their grading system when comparing players who play different roles, PFF have a couple other interesting statistics. One is run stop percentage which measures how many times the defender makes a tackle that causes a defensive stop relative to the total number of snaps on running plays. In this ranking Moore is #34 out of 37 4-3 OLBs (that played at least 25% of the snaps). In this type of ranking it is natural that SLBs are on the lower part of the list, but Moore is still way down on the ranking. Another statistic is tackling efficiency which shows attempted tackles per miss. On this ranking Moore is #36 out of 40 (that played at least 25% of the snaps).

So while PFF have graded him highly on how he performed his assignments in the running game, he missed a high percentage of his tackles and he was largely unproductive. By NFL scoring he had 38 solo tackles and 12 assisted tackles (PFF had him at 31 and 7). That is 2,5 solo and 0,8 assisted tackles per game playing 57% of the snaps.

 
Here is another thing about Moore and the upcoming season posted by ProFootballForcast

[SIZE=small]The next defensive player went off of the board when Oakland selected pass rusher extraordinaire Khalil Mack with the number five overall pick in the draft. Early reports have Mack penciled in as a base SAM who would then kick down to defensive end in the sub-packages (like how Denver uses Von Miller). But if you prefer to roster sure tacklers over up-and-down sack artists, another guy to watch in Oakland may be Sio Moore. Moore was Oakland’s SAM last season when he was PFF’s eighth rated (+8.6) 4-3 outside linebacker. If Moore has to flip over to the WILL in the base to accommodate Mack and continues to play like he did last season, he should have more tackles this season. Last season’s WILL, Kevin Burnett, seems to be the odd man out for now.[/SIZE]
I don't know about the way Pro Football Forecast describes Moore. I agree that Moore will likely move around a bit more and the more time he spends at WLB the more tackles he should produce, but a "guy to watch" if you like "sure tacklers". Hmm...OAK had him rushing on 69% of passing plays last season. That's in James Harrison and Von Miller territory so I don't understand why they promote him as a fantasy option for owners that prefer sure tacklers over up-and-down sack artists. Yes, his role could change, and it will - for better or worse. It will be interesting to see. If I have the roster space I have no problem holding him, but he doesn't strike me as a great prospect for standard or tackle heavy IDPs. Again, he was very productive in college but the question was always if he would have the quickness and range to play WLB or inside in the pros.

 
Mack has now gone at 1.05 and 1.02 in two of my leagues.

What am I missing? I'd have considered him around the mid 2nd

 
Mack has now gone at 1.05 and 1.02 in two of my leagues.

What am I missing? I'd have considered him around the mid 2nd
Tackle heavy, standard or big play? It is ridiculously early anyways, but... I have him ranked in the mid third on my board, but I generally only target ILBs, MLBs and WLBs that fit the profile of a volume tackler. Mack went 3.08 in a 12 team league I'm drafting in now that has low IDP scoring.

 
I am in some IDP leagues that are giving 8 to 12 points for a sack. In one they even have you have stat OLB'ers adn ILB'ers starters when you start 4/3 or 3/4 defenses. I think it really depends on the scoring system and what the owner has at each position. And lets face it some FF owners don't know what the hell they are doing so they always grab a player in the headlines.

 
I'm really eyeballing Carlos Fields. He seems to have the measurables and chops to take the MLB spot by the throat. Its not like Roach has a strangelhold.

 
Mack has now gone at 1.05 and 1.02 in two of my leagues.

What am I missing? I'd have considered him around the mid 2nd
Tackle heavy, standard or big play? It is ridiculously early anyways, but... I have him ranked in the mid third on my board, but I generally only target ILBs, MLBs and WLBs that fit the profile of a volume tackler. Mack went 3.08 in a 12 team league I'm drafting in now that has low IDP scoring.
Standard. You start one DT, two DE, two LB, two corners, two safeties, and one flex. If anything this set up devalues linebackers.

 
Sio Moore LB OAK

The Raiders are working Sio Moore at weak-side linebacker during OTAs.

It's worth noting incumbent WLB Kevin Burnett isn't attending, though he may lose his starting job, anyway. First-round pick Khalil Mack is ticketed for strong-side linebacker, which is Moore's old position. Moore was Reggie McKenzie's only 2013 draft pick who provided a meaningful impact last season. He was a stout run defender, excelled in coverage, and chipped in 4.5 sacks

 
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Mack, Roach and Burris are the 1s in early days of training camp. Time to go grab Burris of ww if he's still there.

 
Mack, Roach and Burris are the 1s in early days of training camp. Time to go grab Burris of ww if he's still there.
HaHa Clinton Dix isn't starting with the 1's in Packers camp either, but I'll bet he does soon.

Why the love for Burris?

 
Mack, Roach and Burris are the 1s in early days of training camp. Time to go grab Burris of ww if he's still there.
HaHa Clinton Dix isn't starting with the 1's in Packers camp either, but I'll bet he does soon.

Why the love for Burris?
Clinton-Dix is a rookie so that is not very surprising. Sio Moore is a second year player who is now possibly being moved into a situational pass rusher role. I would say that it is much more important to take note of him running with the 2s rather than any rookie who is still trying to learn the playbook.

It's a bit of a stretch to say that I have love for Burris...but I do think that he is a bit forgotten. He was a three down LB in weeks 6-17 in his rookie season in 2012 putting up LB3 numbers before his sophomore season got derailed by an injury, and he can currently be found on most waivers. In deeper leagues with 50+ man rosters he is a no brainer to me as long as he doesn't cost anything more than a roster spot to acquire, even though I fully expect Mack and Roach to be the primary three down guys. And I would be selling Sio Moore as quickly as I can. If they go into preseason with Moore still out of the starting lineup his market value will fall sharply. He already had limited playing time while he was "starting" last season.

 
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Sio Moore carted off with a neck injury. X-rays were negative but worth watching, as he was in a battle with Miles Burris for the WLB job.

 
How did Sio look before the injury? I saw he had the first tackle of the game but I had a draft so I couldnt watch carefully.

 
How did Sio look before the injury? I saw he had the first tackle of the game but I had a draft so I couldnt watch carefully.
Sio has looked better than Burris to me always.

And Burris doesn't look particularly fast right now, whereas Sio and Mack both look real, real fast.

I think Sio and Mack are the 3 down LBs.

 
How did Sio look before the injury? I saw he had the first tackle of the game but I had a draft so I couldnt watch carefully.
Sio has looked better than Burris to me always.

And Burris doesn't look particularly fast right now, whereas Sio and Mack both look real, real fast.

I think Sio and Mack are the 3 down LBs.
If he's OK soon I agree but will they do in the meantime? Burris and Mack at SLB?

 
So do we have any further clarity on this? I haven't seen any of the Raiders preseason games. Depth charts are showing Sio as the starting Will, but I'm reading he's been running with the twos behind Miles. What's the gut feeling on how this plays out?

 
I must say, I was all in on Burris and partially in on Sio Moore, mostly because it was easy to acquire Burris for nothing. Then I went to the game Friday night. Moore was all over the place. He played in nickel. I saw him miss one tackle, but by and large I thought he looked good, and we around the ball alot. Burris didn't come in until AFTER the neck injury, I didn't see him on a single defensive play until Moore was hurt. Being the 3rd preseason game, I think that establishes the pecking order pretty clearly.

It sounds like the neck scare was nothing- Moore is your man.

 
I caught a replay and saw this as well. He missed a few tackles but seemed like he was always in the right spot to make a play.

 
How high do we move Moore up our tiers?

Next to players like who???
I think he's still a major bargain. I wouldn't overdraft him, he'd be a guy I think I could get a little slick with, and wait a few rounds.

In one of my leagues Kevin Burnett, last year, outscored Paul Worrilow, Patrick Willis, Zach Brown. There's tackle opportunities in Oakland.

Now, there are better players competing for those tackles. Branch, Tuck, Mack all represent upgrades. But Sio is probably a much better player than Burnett, and definitely offers more big play upside.

If you can get him as your LB5, that's what I'd be shooting for.

 
Sio Moore 11-2 1 sack and 2 FF so far. Guess I should've activated him off the DTS.

 
how did Sio look outside of the box score? Does he have stud written on him or no? I was never impressed with Nick Roach, beating him to the ball shouldn't be hard. Mack is the guy I'm worried about.

 
Was very excited to see the box for Sio, as I have him in several leagues. Only concern is that Burris also put up great numbers.

 
All three had good moments--and bad moments which resulted in long runs.

I wonder if Burris couldn't push Roach for a job.

 
5-ish Finkle said:
Burris put up numbers because Roach was out.
Yes, but I wouldn't expect Burris to be completely snap-free when everyone is healthy, since he (at least in the box score) was pretty active.

 
I still think Roach and Mack will turn out to be the three down guys when Roach is healthy and Mack is fully up to speed. I'd try to sell high on both Moore and Burris, although I don't think Burris is all that easy to flip. Burris made some mistakes in coverage whereas Moore had three missed tackles and allowed 7 of 7 thrown into his coverage. Both players were active and amassing tackles but neither player did well against the run. It goes without saying really as they allowed 212 yds rushing at 6.0 per carry. At least Moore was effective when pass rushing and his stat line does seem very impressive. And sure, if gameflow will continue like this with teams running all over them they might repeat those tackle numbers several times this season, but they need to play better if they are to keep having significant roles long term.

 
Roach is questionable again this week and hasn't been cleared yet, so I think it's safe to roll Burris out again in what is a tremendous matchup.

 
Mack has fairly quietly produced 12 tackles in his first two games, and is sitting at LB24 in my big play league despite not having a sack. Also working on limited snaps still. Even at 4-5 tackles a game, with his ability to get into the backfield and at the QB, he could be very studly in the more realistic big play scoring systems.

 
Is Burris still holding on to that job? I'm really close to dropping him.

PS: He's injured but will play in London, right..?

 
Is Burris still holding on to that job? I'm really close to dropping him.

PS: He's injured but will play in London, right..?
he was in a boot today

beat writers expect him out, but I think allen made some ambiguous comment about 1 of the injured guys maybe playing, so who knows.

 
Following along on Twitter, it looks like Burris is a no-go, Sio isn't looking good (was doing some work, but struggling) and Roach is still a question mark.

If someone asked me who the most likely player to get some tackles would be, I would say Maiava. He has been with the team the longest among theses LBs. Not a bad idea as a longshot, if you missed out on the Whiteheads and Hodges, and scrambling for bodies. 3 down work for him seems impossible to avoid.

But the move I am thinking about is Usama Young. Takes over at SS for Branch, and might see a lot of tackle opportunities,

 

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