Let's talk draft strategy Re-drafts Pick#1 (1 Viewer)

Ministry of Pain · Jul 7, 2005

I have been doing a few mock drafts and it is interesting to see how things shake out. Let's look at the # selection and what options are going to be open.Let's look at Pick #1 and go out a few rounds. We will look at a 12 team league with 6 points all TD, and 1 pt per 10rush/10rec/25pass and a 3 point bonus for 100yds for RB/WR and 300 yds QB...fair enough? We will draft for 1QB/1RB/2WR/1Flex/TEreq and see what happens.Let's start with what would be picks 1.01, 2.12, 3.01, 4.12, 5.01 and so on.If you have 1.01 in a re-draft I see no other option than LT2 really. We could argue that ShAlex is a good pick or if Holmes is healthy but all kidding aside and whether the Chargers have a difficult schedule or not LT2 scores a lot points. It's a safe pick if nothing else with little risk and that's what you want with this pick.2.12 Now when the turn comes back around in all likelihood 2 QBs will be off the board, and Moss, Owens, Harrison, Holt, and probably Chad Johnson will be gone. If any of those top5 WR are available I think the right move is to nab one of them. Now of the RB that would be available are these group...Westbrook, CMart, Steven Jackson, Lamont Jordan, Tatum Bell. After that are guys like Ronnie Brown and C.Williams who I like a lot but are a bit of a reach here. QB is out of the question in my mind when there might not be a QB taken after McNabb for another full 2 rounds...it just does not make sense to push Trent Green or Marc Bulger here.At TE you would have to take TGonzo either with this pick or the 3.01 and I don't think anyone will do that. Going back to WR you have guys like Joe Horn, Reggie Wayne, Javon Walker, Andre Johnson, Darrell Jackson. Gathering this info I would be inclined to take 1 more RB and of the RB that we mentioned I think CMart and yes Tatum Bell would be your best options. CMart would be a conservative pick and Tatum Bell would be a gamble but with Tomlinson already in your backfield and the knowledge that ALL DENVER RB seem to succeed than Bell becomes an option. You will have to back him up later with someone like QGriffin but that will be much later in the draft. At the 3.01 you will want a WR in my opinion as the tlent and opps will drop off big time b4 you pick again. You could take Steven jackson and have your 3 RB but remember ina flex lineup you only have to start 1 RB if you so desire and it helps big time when you play in 12+ team leagues. Of the WR here I would pass on Wayne as I think some of his TD will get re-distributed this year...just a hunch. Joe Horn is usually money but he is aging...I like Javon Walker because he is young, will get a ton of catches, and the other young up and coming all star...Andre Johnson just simply does not get enough touches or looks to be taken quite this early.1.01 LT22.12 Tatum Bell?3.01 Javon Walker? This looks pretty good so far.4.12 When this thing comes back around it looks like Michael Bennett, Cedric Benson, Warrick Dunn, Fred Taylor, Duce, and Deshaun are the RB up on the board. I think Dunn would make a great #3 RB...in fact you might even be able to rethink that 2.12 pick and take another WR...like if CJ had fallen to you and couple him with Walker...grab DUnn coming back around in the 4th.At QB you will find Bulger Green, and KC available...only McNabb, Manning, and Culpepper would be gone going by mock drafts...however many of you might have people that will take a QB in the 4th round b4 you pick and that will only help the sharks with more RB and WR to choose from.At WR you find Steve Smith and Drew Bennett perhaps, and than Boldin, COles, Porter, and Driver. If you have Walker than you don't want Driver. Boldin is a gamble but I really like him. Porter has never lived up to billing. Smith is coming off a big injury, Bennett scares me...hmmmm...The WR at this spot do not look that great...Boldin might have the most upside to me.At TE Witten, Crumpler, Heap, and Shicke are all expected to go off the board b4 the turn comes around again. You might consider a TE here...which one? Gates and Gonzo will be long gone.1.01 LT22.12 Tatum Bell3.01 Javon Walker4.12 Warrick Dunn5.01 Whitten/Crumpler/Heap? Boldin?6.12...At RB you are looking at guys like T.Henry, J.Bettis, T.Jones, TJ Duckett? None of that looks good to me and all the more reason to try and squeeze 3 RBs out of the 1st 4-5 rounds if it is logical.WR...Bruce, Mason, CHambers, Branch...I like what I am seeing at WR here and would be inclined to perhaps grab 2 of these WR and feel alright about passing on Boldin back in round 5 say. 1.01 LT22.12 Tatum Bell3.01 Javon Walker4.12 Warrick Dunn5.01 Jason Witten6.12 Derrick Mason7.01 Chris ChambersOK, let's fast forward to 8.12...my thinking will be to grab 2 QBs at 8 and 9.8.12 QB: 1st of all you might be the last team to take a QB...so let's assume that the top 11 are off the board. You have Carson Palmer, A.Brooks, Delhomme, Brees, Pennington, Leftwich, Carr, McNair, Griese, Warner...I mean really you have a lot of QBs to pick from. Griese is getting a lot of hype on these boards and I would like to have him as my QB2...you will probably be able to get him in the end of the 10th but if you really want him you might have to take him here.Would a Palmer/Brooks combo be bad? Palmer sees the Ravens and Steelers twice...ouch ouch ouch. I'll take Brooks and Griese here. Let's check the other positions real quick...only WR to me would be an option unless you want to get a backup RB early. At RB...you would not need to take QG if that is the backup till about the 16th round...Clarett is going in the 12th but many of us share the view he is a project at best right now so why burn a pick on a backup here.At WR...TJ Housh, Santana Moss, Keen McCardell and Eddie Kennison are all on the board right here. I would take 1 of them and put them on your roster. Roll the dice that Griese will be there in the 10th.1.01 LT2 RB2.12 Tatum Bell RB3.01 Javon Walker WR4.12 Warrick Dunn RB5.01 Jason Witten TE6.12 Derrick Mason WR7.01 Chris Chambers WR8.12 Aaron Brooks QB9.01 Moss/McCardell? WR10.12 Brian Griese QBIs this a good lineup? A great one? A terrible one? We will start to examine the slots one by one and figure which teams have the most opps for talent to fall to them at which slots. Do you need to trade up in the 1st round...down...or out of the 1st? Thoughts, Comments, Criticisms, all wlecome. I work now during the day so I can really only update this after 9PM Pacific. That's assuming I don't make a pit stop at Commerce to play Hold'em... :thumbup:

radballs. · Jul 7, 2005

We will draft for 1QB/1RB/2WR/1Flex/TEreq and see what happens.

Did you mean 2 starting RBs or not? Otherwise, QBs and WRs would go much quicker than you suggested.

Ministry of Pain · Jul 7, 2005

We will draft for 1QB/1RB/2WR/1Flex/TEreq and see what happens.

Click to expand...

Did you mean 2 starting RBs or not? Otherwise, QBs and WRs would go much quicker than you suggested.

Flex lineup with 1 QB, 1 RB, 1 Flex...usually a RB or WR, 2 WR, 1 TE mandatory. Now I got my mock draft slots from Antsports and used serious mock drafts only with 12 team redrafts, Flex-TE mandatory.Remember Radballs that people get tricked at the Flex position into thinking a WR can easily keep up with a RB...people that can start 2 RB every week usually have a big advantage.

If you think about it, someone is trying to start their 3rd WR in the flex if they do not play a RB...cause you have to start 2 WR.

radballs. · Jul 7, 2005

1.01 LT2 RB

2.12 Tatum Bell RB

3.01 Javon Walker WR

4.12 Warrick Dunn RB

5.01 Jason Witten TE

6.12 Derrick Mason WR

7.01 Chris Chambers WR

8.12 Aaron Brooks QB

9.01 Moss/McCardell? WR

10.12 Brian Griese QB

I ran a mock through the most recent DD making picks from the one spot and letting the computer pick the rest using current ADP data. I also put in your scoring requirements and starting lineups. I'm bored tonight I guess. Here's the good and the bad. You may be able to get Chad Johnson instead of Walker at 3.01. Witten might be there at 5.01. He was there when I went to make that pick but right near the very top of the value and ADP list. Both Mason and Chambers were gone at 6.12 and 7.01 so the best guys I got there were Lee Evans and Rod Smith (I'd say that you might have a good shot at getting one of your targets but not both). Brooks was long gone by 8.12. Best QB on the board there was Drew Brees. Santana Moss was gone at 9.01 but McCardell was there. You also got Griese but barely at 10.12.

radballs. · Jul 7, 2005

So, it wasLTCJBellJJ ArringtonWittenLee EvansRod SmithBreesMcCardellGriese

Ministry of Pain · Jul 7, 2005

So, it was

LT

CJ

Bell

JJ Arrington

Witten

Lee Evans

Rod Smith

Brees

McCardell

Griese

I would have to see your numbers Radballs. I cann live with LT2, CJ, and Bell to start. Arrington at 4.12? Not sure I would do that. I might grab a WR at that point with Witten. Lee Evans and Rod Smith? No way...would go after different WR at 6.12 and 7.01. Brooks was long gone at 8.12? How many QBs were off the board? McCardell is fine and Griese too. BTW, these are not my targets but I want people to get some sort of realistic expectation to who will be there...there will always be surprises on draft day.

radballs. · Jul 7, 2005

Here's the team I was able to draft from the one spot using the DD and average ADP data. Which one do you like better?LTCJMcNabbJJ ArringtonWittenEvansRod SmithJerome BettisKeenan McCardellGriese

Ministry of Pain · Jul 7, 2005

Here's the team I was able to draft from the one spot using the DD and average ADP data. Which one do you like better?

LT

CJ

McNabb

JJ Arrington

Witten

Evans

Rod Smith

Jerome Bettis

Keenan McCardell

Griese

I don't like McNabb in the top of the 3rd...he has gone there for a few years...waste to me. If you need a top 5-7 QB to sleep easier than I go Bulger or Green or KC or something like that in the top of the 5th...McNabb is a waste.Bell was off the board already at 2.12?

radballs. · Jul 7, 2005

Here's the team I was able to draft from the one spot using the DD and average ADP data. Which one do you like better?

LT

CJ

McNabb

JJ Arrington

Witten

Evans

Rod Smith

Jerome Bettis

Keenan McCardell

Griese

Click to expand...

I don't like McNabb in the top of the 3rd...he has gone there for a few years...waste to me. If you need a top 5-7 QB to sleep easier than I go Bulger or Green or KC or something like that in the top of the 5th...McNabb is a waste.Bell was off the board already at 2.12?

No, that was just a way I decided to go just to give a different look. Bell is coming out toward the end of that round, but his ADP will shoot up as we get into camp. That guy will be moving up the charts with a bullet if it appears he's getting 70% or more of the action in that offense. I know most people will want to start 2 RBs in this format and I would too. But, with only requiring 1 starting RB, you have a lot more freedom to get value at other positions. I would try to explore that a bit. Once you have LT, I would try to focus on getting studs at other positions rather than worrying about having to fill a RB2 slot so early unless great value falls to you.

C & C · Jul 7, 2005

Well I had/have #1 in a No Mercy league. Slightly different scoring requirements 1/10 rush/recv & 1/20 pass) and it's a 2 RB 3 WR league.Here is what I have so far...1.01 Tomlinson, Ladainian2.12 Johnson, Chad3.01 Harrison, Marvin4.12 Benson, Cedric5.01 Taylor, Fred6.12 Smith, Jimmy7.01 Green, Trent 8.12 Moore, Mewelde9.01 Evans, LeeIt seems in most of the No Mercy drafts I've seen Tatum Bell is the only RB on the board at the end of round 2 of those you originally spoke of. Leaving 2 wideouts as the easy pick.Doing this though, you are forced to draft a couple of backs at your next set of selections (maybe not with the 1 RB & 1 flex that we're looking at here). Fortunately 2 of the RB's you spoke of should be here "Michael Bennett, Cedric Benson, Warrick Dunn, Fred Taylor, Duce, and Deshaun"Now coming back to 6/12 and 7/01 you are hopeful for a decent QB to slip through (Favre/Green/etc.), but if none of them do you can wait until your next set of picks to grab 2 QB's in the 8-11 range. Leaving you the ability to grab a quality TE here (Crumpler/Heap/Shockey) if one of them drops a little. If none of them do you can still take next best WR or RB off the board.at 8 and 9 you grab 2 qb's or a second if you took one in the previous two rounds. Or if a better qb falls you can take whatever value presents itself.Overall #1 spot seems to be even better this year than in previous years. You get the #1 player. There are 19 RB and 5 WR's before the talents drops off in my opinion and you are sure to get 3 of these guys. You can afford to take 2 WR's at 2.12 and 3.01 because the you get to select right before the next dropoff at RB. I like Arrington and Ronnie Brown but can you really be sure they'll be that much better than Benson? Can you be sure these guys are better than Duce Staley? To me there isn't that much difference between these guys. After this all you need to be concerned with is getting a quality QB. You have flexibilty in the next set of rounds if you are comfortable grabbing two qb's in the 11-13 range. I think these qb's offer great value this year.

Prussian · Jul 7, 2005

Well I had/have #1 in a No Mercy league. Slightly different scoring requirements 1/10 rush/recv & 1/20 pass) and it's a 2 RB 3 WR league.

Here is what I have so far...

1.01 Tomlinson, Ladainian

2.12 Johnson, Chad

3.01 Harrison, Marvin

4.12 Benson, Cedric

5.01 Taylor, Fred

6.12 Smith, Jimmy

7.01 Green, Trent

8.12 Moore, Mewelde

9.01 Evans, Lee

I see you are in Kestral's Flight ... up in Barracuda, it has gone differently for me. well, but different.1.01 Ladanian Tomlinson, RB

2.12 Tory Holt, WR

3.01 Marvin Harrison, WR (Chad Johnson, Tatum Bell already gone)

4.12 Kevan Barlow, RB

5.01 Cedric Benson, RB (Taylor, Arrington, Dunn gone)

6.12 Melwalde Moore, RB (playing hunch on Bennett - Drounghs, Henry gone)

7.01 Deion Branch, WR (J. Smith, L. Fitzgerald, top TEs gone ... passed on Muhammad, Lelie, next 6 QBs are all the "same")

I like my team so far, but it has been a deeper cut at RB than the other divisions and well drafted by all. I'd been burned by not having decent RB2 and RBs talent in the past so I stayed RB, RB at 4.12, 5.01 rather than reach for points. Comfortable with my skill positions so far, and have no bye week duplication in my top seven picks.

We'll see what future rounds bring ...

:popcorn:

Callas Disregard · Jul 7, 2005

1.01 LT2 RB

2.12 Tatum Bell RB

3.01 Javon Walker WR

4.12 Warrick Dunn RB

5.01 Jason Witten TE

6.12 Derrick Mason WR

7.01 Chris Chambers WR

8.12 Aaron Brooks QB

9.01 Moss/McCardell? WR

10.12 Brian Griese QB

Is this a good lineup? A great one? A terrible one? We will start to examine the slots one by one and figure which teams have the most opps for talent to fall to them at which slots. Do you need to trade up in the 1st round...down...or out of the 1st? Thoughts, Comments, Criticisms, all wlecome. I work now during the day so I can really only update this after 9PM Pacific. That's assuming I don't make a pit stop at Commerce to play Hold'em...

First of all, I don't trust the advice of anyone who would take Javon Walker ahead of Joe Horn. Horn is part of the "Big 6" this year and "but he is aging" is a non sequitur that is not supported by any evidence. If anything Walker is the risk with his contract situation, an "aging" Favre," and an equal counterpart in Driver who can be drafted several rounds later.Second, at 5.01 any TE not named Gonzo or Gates is a huge reach. If you don't take Gonzo at 3.01 then wait on a TE and take someone like Putzier or Cooley. BTW, Gonzo at 3.01 is not a stretch. Just because other people don't do it doesn't mean you should reject it out of hand. Think for yourself; Gonzo at 3.01 is good value.

Not sure why you like Santana Moss. I certainly don't. There are much more reliable WRs available at 9.01.

Other than that, the draft looks OK to me.

Wingnut · Jul 7, 2005

Using DD:LTBellWalkerDunnWittenLeliePlummerKennisonBettisNot a bad lineup. This was done the other day and I dont remember who was there when I picked in each round, but this is what I ended up with. Lelie teamed with Plummer is a nice tandem, and Kennison is still a steal that late.

Ministry of Pain · Jul 7, 2005

1.01 LT2 RB

2.12 Tatum Bell RB

3.01 Javon Walker WR

4.12 Warrick Dunn RB

5.01 Jason Witten TE

6.12 Derrick Mason WR

7.01 Chris Chambers WR

8.12 Aaron Brooks QB

9.01 Moss/McCardell? WR

10.12 Brian Griese QB

Is this a good lineup? A great one? A terrible one? We will start to examine the slots one by one and figure which teams have the most opps for talent to fall to them at which slots. Do you need to trade up in the 1st round...down...or out of the 1st? Thoughts, Comments, Criticisms, all wlecome. I work now during the day so I can really only update this after 9PM Pacific. That's assuming I don't make a pit stop at Commerce to play Hold'em...

Click to expand...

First of all, I don't trust the advice of anyone who would take Javon Walker ahead of Joe Horn. Horn is part of the "Big 6" this year and "but he is aging" is a non sequitur that is not supported by any evidence. If anything Walker is the risk with his contract situation, an "aging" Favre," and an equal counterpart in Driver who can be drafted several rounds later.Second, at 5.01 any TE not named Gonzo or Gates is a huge reach. If you don't take Gonzo at 3.01 then wait on a TE and take someone like Putzier or Cooley. BTW, Gonzo at 3.01 is not a stretch. Just because other people don't do it doesn't mean you should reject it out of hand. Think for yourself; Gonzo at 3.01 is good value.

Not sure why you like Santana Moss. I certainly don't. There are much more reliable WRs available at 9.01.

Other than that, the draft looks OK to me.

If you like Horn better that's fine but he has been on my team for a long time and he never really makes "the difference" in me winning or losing...in fact some years he has had a rather slow start. Walker still has upside and has not reached his maximum potential...if you don't recognize that than I am not sure I would trust you wither.Witten in a TE mandatory league might be a fine choice at 5.01...you have a guy that caught 36 as a rookie and 80 something his 2nd season with 7 TD...he might be good for another 800 yds and 8 TD which would put him at or near the top...much better than a Putzier later on.

Moss at 9.01...this guy has produced 1,000 yds in a season and he is young. Maybe Washington can find a way to utilize this guy. As my #4 WR I think he would have more upside than an aging McCardell possibly.

Pick me apart, fine with me but I am not making the choices just simply pointing out who is available...it seems the #1 pick will have a very solid team going into the season.

Monkeyface Prickleback · Jul 7, 2005

1.01 LT2 RB

2.12 Tatum Bell RB

3.01 Javon Walker WR

4.12 Warrick Dunn RB

5.01 Jason Witten TE

6.12 Derrick Mason WR

7.01 Chris Chambers WR

8.12 Aaron Brooks QB

9.01 Moss/McCardell? WR

10.12 Brian Griese QB

Is this a good lineup? A great one? A terrible one? We will start to examine the slots one by one and figure which teams have the most opps for talent to fall to them at which slots. Do you need to trade up in the 1st round...down...or out of the 1st? Thoughts, Comments, Criticisms, all wlecome. I work now during the day so I can really only update this after 9PM Pacific. That's assuming I don't make a pit stop at Commerce to play Hold'em...

Click to expand...

First of all, I don't trust the advice of anyone who would take Javon Walker ahead of Joe Horn. Horn is part of the "Big 6" this year and "but he is aging" is a non sequitur that is not supported by any evidence. If anything Walker is the risk with his contract situation, an "aging" Favre," and an equal counterpart in Driver who can be drafted several rounds later.Second, at 5.01 any TE not named Gonzo or Gates is a huge reach. If you don't take Gonzo at 3.01 then wait on a TE and take someone like Putzier or Cooley. BTW, Gonzo at 3.01 is not a stretch. Just because other people don't do it doesn't mean you should reject it out of hand. Think for yourself; Gonzo at 3.01 is good value.

Not sure why you like Santana Moss. I certainly don't. There are much more reliable WRs available at 9.01.

Other than that, the draft looks OK to me.

Click to expand...

If you like Horn better that's fine but he has been on my team for a long time and he never really makes "the difference" in me winning or losing...in fact some years he has had a rather slow start.

This makes no sense. You are acting like he has had the choice in putting you over the top, but didn't go into the game. This isn't real football, by the way. That is called COINCIDENCE.You actually favor players who have "helped" you? :lmao:

Look at his stats and where he should be drafted, not whether or not he showed up for one of "your" previous teams. That's ridiculous.

David Yudkin · Jul 7, 2005

I have not read the whole thread, but in real drafts that I have participated in or observed, the trend this year has been LT-WR-WR.Given the RB hungry atmosphere, I have seen some combination of Holt/Owens/Johnson/Harrison availble at 2.12 and 3.01.Basically, only 2 QB and Moss and one of those WR were gone by 2.10 (at least from what I've seen), leaving the rest of those WR available.In my No Mercy league, the #1 drafter ended up with LT-Harrison-CJ. I drafted from the #2 slot and went Alexander-Owens (2.11)-McNabb (3.02). I have seen drafts that were so RB crazy that Bennett went in the 2nd and Dunn in the 3rd, so don't go by ADP or you won't be able to touch guys if you wait until their ADPs.With so many RB going earlier than expected, I had to take Barlow at 4.11 (there were not many RB options left) as a couple of owers went RB-RB-RB and others had 3 RB through 4 rounds.

Ministry of Pain · Jul 7, 2005

1.01 LT2 RB

2.12 Tatum Bell RB

3.01 Javon Walker WR

4.12 Warrick Dunn RB

5.01 Jason Witten TE

6.12 Derrick Mason WR

7.01 Chris Chambers WR

8.12 Aaron Brooks QB

9.01 Moss/McCardell? WR

10.12 Brian Griese QB

Is this a good lineup? A great one? A terrible one? We will start to examine the slots one by one and figure which teams have the most opps for talent to fall to them at which slots. Do you need to trade up in the 1st round...down...or out of the 1st? Thoughts, Comments, Criticisms, all wlecome. I work now during the day so I can really only update this after 9PM Pacific. That's assuming I don't make a pit stop at Commerce to play Hold'em...

Click to expand...

First of all, I don't trust the advice of anyone who would take Javon Walker ahead of Joe Horn. Horn is part of the "Big 6" this year and "but he is aging" is a non sequitur that is not supported by any evidence. If anything Walker is the risk with his contract situation, an "aging" Favre," and an equal counterpart in Driver who can be drafted several rounds later.Second, at 5.01 any TE not named Gonzo or Gates is a huge reach. If you don't take Gonzo at 3.01 then wait on a TE and take someone like Putzier or Cooley. BTW, Gonzo at 3.01 is not a stretch. Just because other people don't do it doesn't mean you should reject it out of hand. Think for yourself; Gonzo at 3.01 is good value.

Not sure why you like Santana Moss. I certainly don't. There are much more reliable WRs available at 9.01.

Other than that, the draft looks OK to me.

Click to expand...

If you like Horn better that's fine but he has been on my team for a long time and he never really makes "the difference" in me winning or losing...in fact some years he has had a rather slow start.

Click to expand...

This makes no sense. You are acting like he has had the choice in putting you over the top, but didn't go into the game. This isn't real football, by the way. That is called COINCIDENCE.You actually favor players who have "helped" you? Look at his stats and where he should be drafted, not whether or not he showed up for one of "your" previous teams. That's ridiculous.

Has Horn put up a 1,500 yd season yet? 12+ TD? he had 11 last season. His best ever and he is 33 which is not ancient for a WR but he is getting closer to the end...not everyone can play till they are 40.Walker has gone from 300 yds as a rookie, 700 yds and 9 TD his 2nd season, to last season where he posted 1,300+ and 12 TD...could he improve on those numbers with Brett Favre throwing, talented RB corp, and Driver lining up on the other side? Is 1,500 yds and 15 TD too much to hope for?

Stop with the :lmao:

You know I make a good point but maybe I didn't hammer it into your thick skull hard enough by not using factoids...

Monkeyface Prickleback · Jul 7, 2005

1.01 LT2 RB

2.12 Tatum Bell RB

3.01 Javon Walker WR

4.12 Warrick Dunn RB

5.01 Jason Witten TE

6.12 Derrick Mason WR

7.01 Chris Chambers WR

8.12 Aaron Brooks QB

9.01 Moss/McCardell? WR

10.12 Brian Griese QB

Is this a good lineup? A great one? A terrible one? We will start to examine the slots one by one and figure which teams have the most opps for talent to fall to them at which slots. Do you need to trade up in the 1st round...down...or out of the 1st? Thoughts, Comments, Criticisms, all wlecome. I work now during the day so I can really only update this after 9PM Pacific. That's assuming I don't make a pit stop at Commerce to play Hold'em...

Click to expand...

First of all, I don't trust the advice of anyone who would take Javon Walker ahead of Joe Horn. Horn is part of the "Big 6" this year and "but he is aging" is a non sequitur that is not supported by any evidence. If anything Walker is the risk with his contract situation, an "aging" Favre," and an equal counterpart in Driver who can be drafted several rounds later.Second, at 5.01 any TE not named Gonzo or Gates is a huge reach. If you don't take Gonzo at 3.01 then wait on a TE and take someone like Putzier or Cooley. BTW, Gonzo at 3.01 is not a stretch. Just because other people don't do it doesn't mean you should reject it out of hand. Think for yourself; Gonzo at 3.01 is good value.

Not sure why you like Santana Moss. I certainly don't. There are much more reliable WRs available at 9.01.

Other than that, the draft looks OK to me.

Click to expand...

If you like Horn better that's fine but he has been on my team for a long time and he never really makes "the difference" in me winning or losing...in fact some years he has had a rather slow start.

Click to expand...

This makes no sense. You are acting like he has had the choice in putting you over the top, but didn't go into the game. This isn't real football, by the way. That is called COINCIDENCE.You actually favor players who have "helped" you? Look at his stats and where he should be drafted, not whether or not he showed up for one of "your" previous teams. That's ridiculous.

Click to expand...

Has Horn put up a 1,500 yd season yet? 12+ TD? he had 11 last season. His best ever and he is 33 which is not ancient for a WR but he is getting closer to the end...not everyone can play till they are 40.Walker has gone from 300 yds as a rookie, 700 yds and 9 TD his 2nd season, to last season where he posted 1,300+ and 12 TD...could he improve on those numbers with Brett Favre throwing, talented RB corp, and Driver lining up on the other side? Is 1,500 yds and 15 TD too much to hope for?

Stop with the You know I make a good point but maybe I didn't hammer it into your thick skull hard enough by not using factoids...

Congrats, you entirely missed the point. And I mean, ENTIRELY. :yes:

This is not a Walker v. Horn discussion.

This is what I'm still laughing at:

he (Horn) has been on my team for a long time and he never really makes "the difference" in me winning or losing...in fact some years he has had a rather slow start.

Just because Horn has been on your team a "long time", but has never "really made a difference" is an idiotic reason not to draft him. Horn has never been Marvin Harrison. We all know that.

So, to stay away from a point-getter, because he somehow didn't put one of your "previous" teams over the top, is ludicrous. :lmao:

Ministry of Pain · Jul 7, 2005

1.01 LT2 RB

2.12 Tatum Bell RB

3.01 Javon Walker WR

4.12 Warrick Dunn RB

5.01 Jason Witten TE

6.12 Derrick Mason WR

7.01 Chris Chambers WR

8.12 Aaron Brooks QB

9.01 Moss/McCardell? WR

10.12 Brian Griese QB

Is this a good lineup? A great one? A terrible one? We will start to examine the slots one by one and figure which teams have the most opps for talent to fall to them at which slots. Do you need to trade up in the 1st round...down...or out of the 1st? Thoughts, Comments, Criticisms, all wlecome. I work now during the day so I can really only update this after 9PM Pacific. That's assuming I don't make a pit stop at Commerce to play Hold'em...

Click to expand...

First of all, I don't trust the advice of anyone who would take Javon Walker ahead of Joe Horn. Horn is part of the "Big 6" this year and "but he is aging" is a non sequitur that is not supported by any evidence. If anything Walker is the risk with his contract situation, an "aging" Favre," and an equal counterpart in Driver who can be drafted several rounds later.Second, at 5.01 any TE not named Gonzo or Gates is a huge reach. If you don't take Gonzo at 3.01 then wait on a TE and take someone like Putzier or Cooley. BTW, Gonzo at 3.01 is not a stretch. Just because other people don't do it doesn't mean you should reject it out of hand. Think for yourself; Gonzo at 3.01 is good value.

Not sure why you like Santana Moss. I certainly don't. There are much more reliable WRs available at 9.01.

Other than that, the draft looks OK to me.

Click to expand...

If you like Horn better that's fine but he has been on my team for a long time and he never really makes "the difference" in me winning or losing...in fact some years he has had a rather slow start.

Click to expand...

This makes no sense. You are acting like he has had the choice in putting you over the top, but didn't go into the game. This isn't real football, by the way. That is called COINCIDENCE.You actually favor players who have "helped" you? Look at his stats and where he should be drafted, not whether or not he showed up for one of "your" previous teams. That's ridiculous.

Click to expand...

Has Horn put up a 1,500 yd season yet? 12+ TD? he had 11 last season. His best ever and he is 33 which is not ancient for a WR but he is getting closer to the end...not everyone can play till they are 40.Walker has gone from 300 yds as a rookie, 700 yds and 9 TD his 2nd season, to last season where he posted 1,300+ and 12 TD...could he improve on those numbers with Brett Favre throwing, talented RB corp, and Driver lining up on the other side? Is 1,500 yds and 15 TD too much to hope for?

Stop with the You know I make a good point but maybe I didn't hammer it into your thick skull hard enough by not using factoids...

Click to expand...

Congrats, you entirely missed the point. And I mean, ENTIRELY. This is not a Walker v. Horn discussion.

This is what I'm still laughing at:

he (Horn) has been on my team for a long time and he never really makes "the difference" in me winning or losing...in fact some years he has had a rather slow start.

Click to expand...

Just because Horn has been on your team a "long time", but has never "really made a difference" is an idiotic reason not to draft him. Horn has never been Marvin Harrison. We all know that.So, to stay away from a point-getter, because he somehow didn't put one of your "previous" teams over the top, is ludicrous.

I was clearly trying to show that Javon Walker has the potential to be a #1WR perhaps for the entire FF community. I was hammered by the poster that Horn was a far superior player. That is simply not the case. Instead of using the lil factoids I used a gut reply based on Horn being on my team in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003...I have always managed to get this guy at a value point in round 4 somewhere.Players that might put you over the top...Priest, Moss, Manning..Marino in '84, Terrell Davis back in the day...what is so funny...you have now embarrassed yourself twice by resorting to the emoticon. I'll let others argue with you the rest of the way but I think you are not quite as funny as you think you are.

Joe Horn will not win you your FF Bowl outright...that's funny? I didn't say I wouyld never draft the guy...the thread started by foucsing on 4-5 players per pick who would likely be available. Walker, CJ, and Horn will be there at 2.12 and 3.01 on many mock draft boards so I simply went into detail on them...it really wasn't a Horn vs Walker thread although Callus turned it into that.

Have fun, good luck on your season.

Monkeyface Prickleback · Jul 7, 2005

1.01 LT2 RB

2.12 Tatum Bell RB

3.01 Javon Walker WR

4.12 Warrick Dunn RB

5.01 Jason Witten TE

6.12 Derrick Mason WR

7.01 Chris Chambers WR

8.12 Aaron Brooks QB

9.01 Moss/McCardell? WR

10.12 Brian Griese QB

Is this a good lineup? A great one? A terrible one? We will start to examine the slots one by one and figure which teams have the most opps for talent to fall to them at which slots. Do you need to trade up in the 1st round...down...or out of the 1st? Thoughts, Comments, Criticisms, all wlecome. I work now during the day so I can really only update this after 9PM Pacific. That's assuming I don't make a pit stop at Commerce to play Hold'em...

Click to expand...

First of all, I don't trust the advice of anyone who would take Javon Walker ahead of Joe Horn. Horn is part of the "Big 6" this year and "but he is aging" is a non sequitur that is not supported by any evidence. If anything Walker is the risk with his contract situation, an "aging" Favre," and an equal counterpart in Driver who can be drafted several rounds later.Second, at 5.01 any TE not named Gonzo or Gates is a huge reach. If you don't take Gonzo at 3.01 then wait on a TE and take someone like Putzier or Cooley. BTW, Gonzo at 3.01 is not a stretch. Just because other people don't do it doesn't mean you should reject it out of hand. Think for yourself; Gonzo at 3.01 is good value.

Not sure why you like Santana Moss. I certainly don't. There are much more reliable WRs available at 9.01.

Other than that, the draft looks OK to me.

Click to expand...

If you like Horn better that's fine but he has been on my team for a long time and he never really makes "the difference" in me winning or losing...in fact some years he has had a rather slow start.

Click to expand...

This makes no sense. You are acting like he has had the choice in putting you over the top, but didn't go into the game. This isn't real football, by the way. That is called COINCIDENCE.You actually favor players who have "helped" you? Look at his stats and where he should be drafted, not whether or not he showed up for one of "your" previous teams. That's ridiculous.

Click to expand...

Has Horn put up a 1,500 yd season yet? 12+ TD? he had 11 last season. His best ever and he is 33 which is not ancient for a WR but he is getting closer to the end...not everyone can play till they are 40.Walker has gone from 300 yds as a rookie, 700 yds and 9 TD his 2nd season, to last season where he posted 1,300+ and 12 TD...could he improve on those numbers with Brett Favre throwing, talented RB corp, and Driver lining up on the other side? Is 1,500 yds and 15 TD too much to hope for?

Stop with the You know I make a good point but maybe I didn't hammer it into your thick skull hard enough by not using factoids...

Click to expand...

Congrats, you entirely missed the point. And I mean, ENTIRELY. This is not a Walker v. Horn discussion.

This is what I'm still laughing at:

he (Horn) has been on my team for a long time and he never really makes "the difference" in me winning or losing...in fact some years he has had a rather slow start.

Click to expand...

Just because Horn has been on your team a "long time", but has never "really made a difference" is an idiotic reason not to draft him. Horn has never been Marvin Harrison. We all know that.So, to stay away from a point-getter, because he somehow didn't put one of your "previous" teams over the top, is ludicrous.

Click to expand...

I was clearly trying to show that Javon Walker has the potential to be a #1WR perhaps for the entire FF community. I was hammered by the poster that Horn was a far superior player. That is simply not the case. Instead of using the lil factoids I used a gut reply based on Horn being on my team in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003...I have always managed to get this guy at a value point in round 4 somewhere.Players that might put you over the top...Priest, Moss, Manning..Marino in '84, Terrell Davis back in the day...what is so funny...you have now embarrassed yourself twice by resorting to the emoticon. I'll let others argue with you the rest of the way but I think you are not quite as funny as you think you are.

Joe Horn will not win you your FF Bowl outright...that's funny? I didn't say I wouyld never draft the guy...the thread started by foucsing on 4-5 players per pick who would likely be available. Walker, CJ, and Horn will be there at 2.12 and 3.01 on many mock draft boards so I simply went into detail on them...it really wasn't a Horn vs Walker thread although Callus turned it into that.

Have fun, good luck on your season.

You are dodging the point, AGAIN. This is simple. You asserted that Horn has never really made a difference for you. Well, what do expect him to do when you drafted him? You didn't think he was going to turn into Moss, did you? So, again, what were you expecting? And how did he fail you?

he (Horn) has been on my team for a long time and he never really makes "the difference" in me winning or losing...in fact some years he has had a rather slow start.

Ministry of Pain · Jul 7, 2005

1.01 LT2 RB

2.12 Tatum Bell RB

3.01 Javon Walker WR

4.12 Warrick Dunn RB

5.01 Jason Witten TE

6.12 Derrick Mason WR

7.01 Chris Chambers WR

8.12 Aaron Brooks QB

9.01 Moss/McCardell? WR

10.12 Brian Griese QB

Is this a good lineup? A great one? A terrible one? We will start to examine the slots one by one and figure which teams have the most opps for talent to fall to them at which slots. Do you need to trade up in the 1st round...down...or out of the 1st? Thoughts, Comments, Criticisms, all wlecome. I work now during the day so I can really only update this after 9PM Pacific. That's assuming I don't make a pit stop at Commerce to play Hold'em...

Click to expand...

First of all, I don't trust the advice of anyone who would take Javon Walker ahead of Joe Horn. Horn is part of the "Big 6" this year and "but he is aging" is a non sequitur that is not supported by any evidence. If anything Walker is the risk with his contract situation, an "aging" Favre," and an equal counterpart in Driver who can be drafted several rounds later.Second, at 5.01 any TE not named Gonzo or Gates is a huge reach. If you don't take Gonzo at 3.01 then wait on a TE and take someone like Putzier or Cooley. BTW, Gonzo at 3.01 is not a stretch. Just because other people don't do it doesn't mean you should reject it out of hand. Think for yourself; Gonzo at 3.01 is good value.

Not sure why you like Santana Moss. I certainly don't. There are much more reliable WRs available at 9.01.

Other than that, the draft looks OK to me.

Click to expand...

If you like Horn better that's fine but he has been on my team for a long time and he never really makes "the difference" in me winning or losing...in fact some years he has had a rather slow start.

Click to expand...

This makes no sense. You are acting like he has had the choice in putting you over the top, but didn't go into the game. This isn't real football, by the way. That is called COINCIDENCE.You actually favor players who have "helped" you? Look at his stats and where he should be drafted, not whether or not he showed up for one of "your" previous teams. That's ridiculous.

Click to expand...

Has Horn put up a 1,500 yd season yet? 12+ TD? he had 11 last season. His best ever and he is 33 which is not ancient for a WR but he is getting closer to the end...not everyone can play till they are 40.Walker has gone from 300 yds as a rookie, 700 yds and 9 TD his 2nd season, to last season where he posted 1,300+ and 12 TD...could he improve on those numbers with Brett Favre throwing, talented RB corp, and Driver lining up on the other side? Is 1,500 yds and 15 TD too much to hope for?

Stop with the You know I make a good point but maybe I didn't hammer it into your thick skull hard enough by not using factoids...

Click to expand...

Congrats, you entirely missed the point. And I mean, ENTIRELY. This is not a Walker v. Horn discussion.

This is what I'm still laughing at:

he (Horn) has been on my team for a long time and he never really makes "the difference" in me winning or losing...in fact some years he has had a rather slow start.

Click to expand...

Just because Horn has been on your team a "long time", but has never "really made a difference" is an idiotic reason not to draft him. Horn has never been Marvin Harrison. We all know that.So, to stay away from a point-getter, because he somehow didn't put one of your "previous" teams over the top, is ludicrous.

Click to expand...

I was clearly trying to show that Javon Walker has the potential to be a #1WR perhaps for the entire FF community. I was hammered by the poster that Horn was a far superior player. That is simply not the case. Instead of using the lil factoids I used a gut reply based on Horn being on my team in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003...I have always managed to get this guy at a value point in round 4 somewhere.Players that might put you over the top...Priest, Moss, Manning..Marino in '84, Terrell Davis back in the day...what is so funny...you have now embarrassed yourself twice by resorting to the emoticon. I'll let others argue with you the rest of the way but I think you are not quite as funny as you think you are.

Joe Horn will not win you your FF Bowl outright...that's funny? I didn't say I wouyld never draft the guy...the thread started by foucsing on 4-5 players per pick who would likely be available. Walker, CJ, and Horn will be there at 2.12 and 3.01 on many mock draft boards so I simply went into detail on them...it really wasn't a Horn vs Walker thread although Callus turned it into that.

Have fun, good luck on your season.

Click to expand...

You are dodging the point, AGAIN. This is simple. You asserted that Horn has never really made a difference for you. Well, what do expect him to do when you drafted him? You didn't think he was going to turn into Moss, did you? So, again, what were you expecting? And how did he fail you?

he (Horn) has been on my team for a long time and he never really makes "the difference" in me winning or losing...in fact some years he has had a rather slow start.

Click to expand...

I just wanted to hand your a!! back to you...it fell off on your way rolling out the door. Again good luck to you.

radballs. · Jul 7, 2005

What happened to this thread? :no:

Monkeyface Prickleback · Jul 7, 2005

So we're clear, good.

Make a list, everybody, of any player that didn't really put you over the top, and DON'T EVER DRAFT HIM AGAIN, MMKAY? Doesn't matter if he scores points either, he burned you, so you need to HOLD BIAS AGAINST HIM FOREVER!

:lol:

Ministry of Pain · Jul 7, 2005

What happened to this thread?

You tell me. Radballs you had some great posts and any criticism you brought had good reasons. Somehow taking Walker at 3.01 was just too much for some of our readers/posters.

Monkeyface Prickleback · Jul 7, 2005

What happened to this thread?

Click to expand...

You tell me. Radballs you had some great posts and any criticism you brought had good reasons. Somehow taking Walker at 3.01 was just too much for some of our readers/posters.

That has nothing to do with it. Stop the diversion tactics.You have asserted that Horn has just "never done it for you", and I am simply saying that is very poor way to look at it. Horn has never been drafted as a super-star -- someone to carry you. And to hold bias against a FF player because he hasn't put you over the top is altogether silly.

Feel free to address YOUR comments: "he (Horn) has been on my team for a long time and he never really makes "the difference" in me winning or losing...in fact some years he has had a rather slow start."

radballs. · Jul 7, 2005

What happened to this thread?

Click to expand...

You tell me. Radballs you had some great posts and any criticism you brought had good reasons. Somehow taking Walker at 3.01 was just too much for some of our readers/posters.

Click to expand...

That has nothing to do with it. Stop the diversion tactics.You have asserted that Horn has just "never done it for you", and I am simply saying that is very poor way to look at it. Horn has never been drafted as a super-star -- someone to carry you. And to hold bias against a FF player because he hasn't put you over the top is altogether silly.

Feel free to address YOUR comments: "he (Horn) has been on my team for a long time and he never really makes "the difference" in me winning or losing...in fact some years he has had a rather slow start."

MOP isn't that high on Horn. Big deal and who cares. This should be a discussion over whether to take certain positions depending on the round. Not an "I like WR A more than WR B" thread. I really think the number one spot is the best place to draft from this year not just because of LT but because of the talent falling back to you at 2.12, 3.01 and again at 4.12, 5.01. The pissing contest needs to stop.

Ministry of Pain · Jul 7, 2005

What happened to this thread?

Click to expand...

You tell me. Radballs you had some great posts and any criticism you brought had good reasons. Somehow taking Walker at 3.01 was just too much for some of our readers/posters.

Click to expand...

That has nothing to do with it. Stop the diversion tactics.You have asserted that Horn has just "never done it for you", and I am simply saying that is very poor way to look at it. Horn has never been drafted as a super-star -- someone to carry you. And to hold bias against a FF player because he hasn't put you over the top is altogether silly.

Feel free to address YOUR comments: "he (Horn) has been on my team for a long time and he never really makes "the difference" in me winning or losing...in fact some years he has had a rather slow start."

Click to expand...

MOP isn't that high on Horn. Big deal and who cares. This should be a discussion over whether to take certain positions depending on the round. Not an "I like WR A more than WR B" thread. I really think the number one spot is the best place to draft from this year not just because of LT but because of the talent falling back to you at 2.12, 3.01 and again at 4.12, 5.01. The pissing contest needs to stop.

Agreed. I wished him gl twice. I call truce as well. I thought he rolled out the door 6 posts ago.

Monkeyface Prickleback · Jul 7, 2005

What happened to this thread?

Click to expand...

You tell me. Radballs you had some great posts and any criticism you brought had good reasons. Somehow taking Walker at 3.01 was just too much for some of our readers/posters.

Click to expand...

That has nothing to do with it. Stop the diversion tactics.You have asserted that Horn has just "never done it for you", and I am simply saying that is very poor way to look at it. Horn has never been drafted as a super-star -- someone to carry you. And to hold bias against a FF player because he hasn't put you over the top is altogether silly.

Feel free to address YOUR comments: "he (Horn) has been on my team for a long time and he never really makes "the difference" in me winning or losing...in fact some years he has had a rather slow start."

Click to expand...

MOP isn't that high on Horn. Big deal and who cares. This should be a discussion over whether to take certain positions depending on the round. Not an "I like WR A more than WR B" thread. I really think the number one spot is the best place to draft from this year not just because of LT but because of the talent falling back to you at 2.12, 3.01 and again at 4.12, 5.01. The pissing contest needs to stop.

I don't care if he's not high on Horn. Truth be told, neither am I. However, to demonstrate bias in an upcoming year, solely because a player didn't "put your team over the top" is just silly. He acts like Horn has been a perennial bust, is all. In fact, to me, it sounds as if this stems from him reaching for Horn.Anway, tell me, am I allowed to challenge that? And is it smart to show that kind of bias for upcoming years? You tell me.

Ministry of Pain · Jul 7, 2005

What happened to this thread?

Click to expand...

You tell me. Radballs you had some great posts and any criticism you brought had good reasons. Somehow taking Walker at 3.01 was just too much for some of our readers/posters.

Click to expand...

That has nothing to do with it. Stop the diversion tactics.You have asserted that Horn has just "never done it for you", and I am simply saying that is very poor way to look at it. Horn has never been drafted as a super-star -- someone to carry you. And to hold bias against a FF player because he hasn't put you over the top is altogether silly.

Feel free to address YOUR comments: "he (Horn) has been on my team for a long time and he never really makes "the difference" in me winning or losing...in fact some years he has had a rather slow start."

Click to expand...

MOP isn't that high on Horn. Big deal and who cares. This should be a discussion over whether to take certain positions depending on the round. Not an "I like WR A more than WR B" thread. I really think the number one spot is the best place to draft from this year not just because of LT but because of the talent falling back to you at 2.12, 3.01 and again at 4.12, 5.01. The pissing contest needs to stop.

Click to expand...

I don't care if he's not high on Horn. Truth be told, neither am I. However, to demonstrate bias in an upcoming year, solely because a player didn't "put your team over the top" is just silly. He acts like Horn has been a perennial bust, is all. In fact, to me, it sounds as if this stems from him reaching for Horn.Anway, tell me, am I allowed to challenge that? And is it smart to show that kind of bias for upcoming years? You tell me.

This was taken from an article/thread I wrote 2 years ago on WR tiers. I am pasting verbatum...I think I have always been high on Horn...he is always a top10 type WR...you are really putting words in my mouth friend. Let it go."Has the trinity become the 4 horsemen?"

Marvin Harrison:

Opp: (A+): Option 1 when Manning drops back. Big part of the offense.

Abi: (A): Great hands. Wish he was bigger but oh well. Proof is in the pudding.

Cast: (A): Manning, Edge, Wayne will get better.

Sch: (C+): Does it matter? It is tough.

Int: (A): What’s not to like?

Total:(A)

Terrell Owens:

Opp: (A): Option 1 for Garcia

Abi: (A+): Do you really need me to tell you he is good.

Cast: (B): Needs a stud RB to help a bit

Sch: (B):

Int: (A-): As long as his head is straight

Total: (A): Break out the Sharpies.

Randy Moss:

Opp: (A+): Lot of passes his way

Abi: (A+): A giraffe with hands.

Cast: (B): Needs a better #2.

Sch: (B): Det and Chi twice. Lot of easy defenses.

Int: (D+): Will he get busted this week? Will he not take plays off?

Total: (A): Still worth that high 2nd round pick.

The trinity is still the trinity. The next 4 WR are slightly separated from the big group behind them. There is even an outside chance that they could get up into the top3. It should be noted however that they can also just as easily fall back a bit too. I just think the groundwork is in place for great seasons.

Joe Horn:

Opp: (B): The ball will get thrown around a lot. NO defense not good and tough schedule means they will need to score a lot. NO 2003= Buff 2002? Maybe.

Abi: (A): Guy is very consistent. Good for 1,200 and 8 TD every year.

Cast: (A): Stallworth lined up across him. Stud in the backfield. Good QB.

Sch: (C-): Brutal in some stretches but he will benefit from playing behind.

Int: (A): All things look bright for Horn.

Total: (B+): Oh when the Saints go marching in!

Let it go...please.

Monkeyface Prickleback · Jul 7, 2005

Good, I'm glad we finally got somewhere.

So, you've been drafting Horn too early for years, now. Fine. But, you probably shouldn't hold that against him.

Ministry of Pain · Jul 7, 2005

Good, I'm glad we finally got somewhere.

So, you've been drafting Horn too early for years, now. Fine. But, you probably shouldn't hold that against him.

Oh so now Horn is not top 10 material to you. Whatever I write you are set to go the other way so be it. You are obviously wanting to get the last word in and since I started this thread I am not going to abandon it just because you went and hijacked it. I was above the groin punches and wished you gl on your season not once but twice in hopes you would post in another thread...still you must twist my words to whatever suits you behind the desk you are sitting in.

We don't agree on anything in this thread so far...you went off topic and thought you could frame me as a no-nothing because I simply think of the 3 or 4 WR that were available at 2.12 and 3.01 that CJ and JW were the best options...you didn't and that was fine...there is nothing to argue over...you want Horn than take him...is 3.1 an over value? I have never taken him b4 the 4th round so if I had him ranked 4th on my board of WR and was able to snare him in the 4th round than I didn't reach did I my bright new friend? Let it go...let it go...

footballman_696969 · Jul 7, 2005

I have been doing a few mock drafts and it is interesting to see how things shake out. Let's look at the # selection and what options are going to be open.

Let's look at Pick #1 and go out a few rounds. We will look at a 12 team league with 6 points all TD, and 1 pt per 10rush/10rec/25pass and a 3 point bonus for 100yds for RB/WR and 300 yds QB...fair enough? We will draft for 1QB/1RB/2WR/1Flex/TEreq and see what happens.

Let's start with what would be picks 1.01, 2.12, 3.01, 4.12, 5.01 and so on.

If you have 1.01 in a re-draft I see no other option than LT2 really. We could argue that ShAlex is a good pick or if Holmes is healthy but all kidding aside and whether the Chargers have a difficult schedule or not LT2 scores a lot points. It's a safe pick if nothing else with little risk and that's what you want with this pick.

2.12 Now when the turn comes back around in all likelihood 2 QBs will be off the board, and Moss, Owens, Harrison, Holt, and probably Chad Johnson will be gone. If any of those top5 WR are available I think the right move is to nab one of them.

Now of the RB that would be available are these group...Westbrook, CMart, Steven Jackson, Lamont Jordan, Tatum Bell. After that are guys like Ronnie Brown and C.Williams who I like a lot but are a bit of a reach here.

QB is out of the question in my mind when there might not be a QB taken after McNabb for another full 2 rounds...it just does not make sense to push Trent Green or Marc Bulger here.

At TE you would have to take TGonzo either with this pick or the 3.01 and I don't think anyone will do that.

Going back to WR you have guys like Joe Horn, Reggie Wayne, Javon Walker, Andre Johnson, Darrell Jackson.

Gathering this info I would be inclined to take 1 more RB and of the RB that we mentioned I think CMart and yes Tatum Bell would be your best options. CMart would be a conservative pick and Tatum Bell would be a gamble but with Tomlinson already in your backfield and the knowledge that ALL DENVER RB seem to succeed than Bell becomes an option. You will have to back him up later with someone like QGriffin but that will be much later in the draft.

At the 3.01 you will want a WR in my opinion as the tlent and opps will drop off big time b4 you pick again. You could take Steven jackson and have your 3 RB but remember ina flex lineup you only have to start 1 RB if you so desire and it helps big time when you play in 12+ team leagues.

Of the WR here I would pass on Wayne as I think some of his TD will get re-distributed this year...just a hunch. Joe Horn is usually money but he is aging...I like Javon Walker because he is young, will get a ton of catches, and the other young up and coming all star...Andre Johnson just simply does not get enough touches or looks to be taken quite this early.

1.01 LT2

2.12 Tatum Bell?

3.01 Javon Walker? This looks pretty good so far.

4.12 When this thing comes back around it looks like Michael Bennett, Cedric Benson, Warrick Dunn, Fred Taylor, Duce, and Deshaun are the RB up on the board. I think Dunn would make a great #3 RB...in fact you might even be able to rethink that 2.12 pick and take another WR...like if CJ had fallen to you and couple him with Walker...grab DUnn coming back around in the 4th.

At QB you will find Bulger Green, and KC available...only McNabb, Manning, and Culpepper would be gone going by mock drafts...however many of you might have people that will take a QB in the 4th round b4 you pick and that will only help the sharks with more RB and WR to choose from.

At WR you find Steve Smith and Drew Bennett perhaps, and than Boldin, COles, Porter, and Driver. If you have Walker than you don't want Driver. Boldin is a gamble but I really like him. Porter has never lived up to billing. Smith is coming off a big injury, Bennett scares me...hmmmm...The WR at this spot do not look that great...Boldin might have the most upside to me.

At TE Witten, Crumpler, Heap, and Shicke are all expected to go off the board b4 the turn comes around again. You might consider a TE here...which one? Gates and Gonzo will be long gone.

1.01 LT2

2.12 Tatum Bell

3.01 Javon Walker

4.12 Warrick Dunn

5.01 Whitten/Crumpler/Heap? Boldin?

6.12...At RB you are looking at guys like T.Henry, J.Bettis, T.Jones, TJ Duckett? None of that looks good to me and all the more reason to try and squeeze 3 RBs out of the 1st 4-5 rounds if it is logical.

WR...Bruce, Mason, CHambers, Branch...I like what I am seeing at WR here and would be inclined to perhaps grab 2 of these WR and feel alright about passing on Boldin back in round 5 say.

1.01 LT2

2.12 Tatum Bell

3.01 Javon Walker

4.12 Warrick Dunn

5.01 Jason Witten

6.12 Derrick Mason

7.01 Chris Chambers

OK, let's fast forward to 8.12...my thinking will be to grab 2 QBs at 8 and 9.

8.12 QB: 1st of all you might be the last team to take a QB...so let's assume that the top 11 are off the board. You have Carson Palmer, A.Brooks, Delhomme, Brees, Pennington, Leftwich, Carr, McNair, Griese, Warner...I mean really you have a lot of QBs to pick from. Griese is getting a lot of hype on these boards and I would like to have him as my QB2...you will probably be able to get him in the end of the 10th but if you really want him you might have to take him here.

Would a Palmer/Brooks combo be bad? Palmer sees the Ravens and Steelers twice...ouch ouch ouch. I'll take Brooks and Griese here. Let's check the other positions real quick...only WR to me would be an option unless you want to get a backup RB early.

At RB...you would not need to take QG if that is the backup till about the 16th round...Clarett is going in the 12th but many of us share the view he is a project at best right now so why burn a pick on a backup here.

At WR...TJ Housh, Santana Moss, Keen McCardell and Eddie Kennison are all on the board right here. I would take 1 of them and put them on your roster. Roll the dice that Griese will be there in the 10th.

1.01 LT2 RB

2.12 Tatum Bell RB

3.01 Javon Walker WR

4.12 Warrick Dunn RB

5.01 Jason Witten TE

6.12 Derrick Mason WR

7.01 Chris Chambers WR

8.12 Aaron Brooks QB

9.01 Moss/McCardell? WR

10.12 Brian Griese QB

Is this a good lineup? A great one? A terrible one? We will start to examine the slots one by one and figure which teams have the most opps for talent to fall to them at which slots. Do you need to trade up in the 1st round...down...or out of the 1st? Thoughts, Comments, Criticisms, all wlecome. I work now during the day so I can really only update this after 9PM Pacific. That's assuming I don't make a pit stop at Commerce to play Hold'em...

Good post, MOP.. I really see a big advantage in having the 1st pick this year.1.01 LT2 RB

2.12 Tatum Bell RB

3.01 Javon Walker WR

4.12 Warrick Dunn RB

5.01 Anquan Boldin WR

6.12 Alge Crumpler TE

7.01 Isaac Bruce WR

8.12 Aaron Brooks QB

9.01 Keyshawn Johnson WR

10.12 Byron leftwich QB

I like the team you picked, but would make a couple of changes. Witten should be money this year, but Crumpler can be had in the late 6th and he represents better value. I like Boldin at 5.01 out of the WRs that would likely be available. Im not high on Mason or Chambers this year and I think Bruce will be top 20. I also think Moss will be a huge bust this year. Brian Griese is a decent option at QB, but I like Byron better in this situaiton.

Ministry of Pain · Jul 7, 2005

I have been doing a few mock drafts and it is interesting to see how things shake out. Let's look at the # selection and what options are going to be open.

Let's look at Pick #1 and go out a few rounds. We will look at a 12 team league with 6 points all TD, and 1 pt per 10rush/10rec/25pass and a 3 point bonus for 100yds for RB/WR and 300 yds QB...fair enough? We will draft for 1QB/1RB/2WR/1Flex/TEreq and see what happens.

Let's start with what would be picks 1.01, 2.12, 3.01, 4.12, 5.01 and so on.

If you have 1.01 in a re-draft I see no other option than LT2 really. We could argue that ShAlex is a good pick or if Holmes is healthy but all kidding aside and whether the Chargers have a difficult schedule or not LT2 scores a lot points. It's a safe pick if nothing else with little risk and that's what you want with this pick.

2.12 Now when the turn comes back around in all likelihood 2 QBs will be off the board, and Moss, Owens, Harrison, Holt, and probably Chad Johnson will be gone. If any of those top5 WR are available I think the right move is to nab one of them.

Now of the RB that would be available are these group...Westbrook, CMart, Steven Jackson, Lamont Jordan, Tatum Bell. After that are guys like Ronnie Brown and C.Williams who I like a lot but are a bit of a reach here.

QB is out of the question in my mind when there might not be a QB taken after McNabb for another full 2 rounds...it just does not make sense to push Trent Green or Marc Bulger here.

At TE you would have to take TGonzo either with this pick or the 3.01 and I don't think anyone will do that.

Going back to WR you have guys like Joe Horn, Reggie Wayne, Javon Walker, Andre Johnson, Darrell Jackson.

Gathering this info I would be inclined to take 1 more RB and of the RB that we mentioned I think CMart and yes Tatum Bell would be your best options. CMart would be a conservative pick and Tatum Bell would be a gamble but with Tomlinson already in your backfield and the knowledge that ALL DENVER RB seem to succeed than Bell becomes an option. You will have to back him up later with someone like QGriffin but that will be much later in the draft.

At the 3.01 you will want a WR in my opinion as the tlent and opps will drop off big time b4 you pick again. You could take Steven jackson and have your 3 RB but remember ina flex lineup you only have to start 1 RB if you so desire and it helps big time when you play in 12+ team leagues.

Of the WR here I would pass on Wayne as I think some of his TD will get re-distributed this year...just a hunch. Joe Horn is usually money but he is aging...I like Javon Walker because he is young, will get a ton of catches, and the other young up and coming all star...Andre Johnson just simply does not get enough touches or looks to be taken quite this early.

1.01 LT2

2.12 Tatum Bell?

3.01 Javon Walker? This looks pretty good so far.

4.12 When this thing comes back around it looks like Michael Bennett, Cedric Benson, Warrick Dunn, Fred Taylor, Duce, and Deshaun are the RB up on the board. I think Dunn would make a great #3 RB...in fact you might even be able to rethink that 2.12 pick and take another WR...like if CJ had fallen to you and couple him with Walker...grab DUnn coming back around in the 4th.

At QB you will find Bulger Green, and KC available...only McNabb, Manning, and Culpepper would be gone going by mock drafts...however many of you might have people that will take a QB in the 4th round b4 you pick and that will only help the sharks with more RB and WR to choose from.

At WR you find Steve Smith and Drew Bennett perhaps, and than Boldin, COles, Porter, and Driver. If you have Walker than you don't want Driver. Boldin is a gamble but I really like him. Porter has never lived up to billing. Smith is coming off a big injury, Bennett scares me...hmmmm...The WR at this spot do not look that great...Boldin might have the most upside to me.

At TE Witten, Crumpler, Heap, and Shicke are all expected to go off the board b4 the turn comes around again. You might consider a TE here...which one? Gates and Gonzo will be long gone.

1.01 LT2

2.12 Tatum Bell

3.01 Javon Walker

4.12 Warrick Dunn

5.01 Whitten/Crumpler/Heap? Boldin?

6.12...At RB you are looking at guys like T.Henry, J.Bettis, T.Jones, TJ Duckett? None of that looks good to me and all the more reason to try and squeeze 3 RBs out of the 1st 4-5 rounds if it is logical.

WR...Bruce, Mason, CHambers, Branch...I like what I am seeing at WR here and would be inclined to perhaps grab 2 of these WR and feel alright about passing on Boldin back in round 5 say.

1.01 LT2

2.12 Tatum Bell

3.01 Javon Walker

4.12 Warrick Dunn

5.01 Jason Witten

6.12 Derrick Mason

7.01 Chris Chambers

OK, let's fast forward to 8.12...my thinking will be to grab 2 QBs at 8 and 9.

8.12 QB: 1st of all you might be the last team to take a QB...so let's assume that the top 11 are off the board. You have Carson Palmer, A.Brooks, Delhomme, Brees, Pennington, Leftwich, Carr, McNair, Griese, Warner...I mean really you have a lot of QBs to pick from. Griese is getting a lot of hype on these boards and I would like to have him as my QB2...you will probably be able to get him in the end of the 10th but if you really want him you might have to take him here.

Would a Palmer/Brooks combo be bad? Palmer sees the Ravens and Steelers twice...ouch ouch ouch. I'll take Brooks and Griese here. Let's check the other positions real quick...only WR to me would be an option unless you want to get a backup RB early.

At RB...you would not need to take QG if that is the backup till about the 16th round...Clarett is going in the 12th but many of us share the view he is a project at best right now so why burn a pick on a backup here.

At WR...TJ Housh, Santana Moss, Keen McCardell and Eddie Kennison are all on the board right here. I would take 1 of them and put them on your roster. Roll the dice that Griese will be there in the 10th.

1.01 LT2 RB

2.12 Tatum Bell RB

3.01 Javon Walker WR

4.12 Warrick Dunn RB

5.01 Jason Witten TE

6.12 Derrick Mason WR

7.01 Chris Chambers WR

8.12 Aaron Brooks QB

9.01 Moss/McCardell? WR

10.12 Brian Griese QB

Is this a good lineup? A great one? A terrible one? We will start to examine the slots one by one and figure which teams have the most opps for talent to fall to them at which slots. Do you need to trade up in the 1st round...down...or out of the 1st? Thoughts, Comments, Criticisms, all wlecome. I work now during the day so I can really only update this after 9PM Pacific. That's assuming I don't make a pit stop at Commerce to play Hold'em...

Click to expand...

Good post, MOP.. I really see a big advantage in having the 1st pick this year.1.01 LT2 RB

2.12 Tatum Bell RB

3.01 Javon Walker WR

4.12 Warrick Dunn RB

5.01 Anquan Boldin WR

6.12 Alge Crumpler TE

7.01 Isaac Bruce WR

8.12 Aaron Brooks QB

9.01 Keyshawn Johnson WR

10.12 Byron leftwich QB

I like the team you picked, but would make a couple of changes. Witten should be money this year, but Crumpler can be had in the late 6th and he represents better value. I like Boldin at 5.01 out of the WRs that would likely be available. Im not high on Mason or Chambers this year and I think Bruce will be top 20. I also think Moss will be a huge bust this year. Brian Griese is a decent option at QB, but I like Byron better in this situaiton.

Good stuff.

Monkeyface Prickleback · Jul 7, 2005

Good, I'm glad we finally got somewhere.

So, you've been drafting Horn too early for years, now. Fine. But, you probably shouldn't hold that against him.

Click to expand...

Oh so now Horn is not top 10 material to you. Whatever I write you are set to go the other way so be it. You are obviously wanting to get the last word in and since I started this thread I am not going to abandon it just because you went and hijacked it. I was above the groin punches and wished you gl on your season not once but twice in hopes you would post in another thread...still you must twist my words to whatever suits you behind the desk you are sitting in.

We don't agree on anything in this thread so far...you went off topic and thought you could frame me as a no-nothing because I simply think of the 3 or 4 WR that were available at 2.12 and 3.01 that CJ and JW were the best options...you didn't and that was fine...there is nothing to argue over...you want Horn than take him...is 3.1 an over value? I have never taken him b4 the 4th round so if I had him ranked 4th on my board of WR and was able to snare him in the 4th round than I didn't reach did I my bright new friend? Let it go...let it go...

Please comment on the following, which you stated. Maybe it will clarify things.

"he (Horn) has been on my team for a long time and he never really makes "the difference" in me winning or losing...in fact some years he has had a rather slow start."

You now contend that you never got him before the fourth round, right? Yet, you also say Horn has never made the difference for you? How in the world is Horn in the fourth keeping you down. Do tell. :popcorn:

nerangers · Jul 7, 2005

I think either would be worthy at that draft position. You are talking preference. Horn has been going about the 7th WR and Walker the 8th.

Horn:

| 2000 nor | 16 | 6 18 3.0 0 | 94 1340 14.3 8 |

| 2001 nor | 16 | 1 4 4.0 0 | 83 1265 15.2 9 |

| 2002 nor | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 88 1312 14.9 7 |

| 2003 nor | 15 | 2 15 7.5 0 | 78 973 12.5 10 |

| 2004 nor | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 94 1399 14.9 11

Walker:

| 2002 gnb | 15 | 1 11 11.0 0 | 23 319 13.9 1 |

| 2003 gnb | 16 | 2 1 0.5 0 | 41 716 17.5 9 |

| 2004 gnb | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 89 1382 15.5 12

MOP is saying that he feels (using his gut which is what most of us do when making these predictions) that Walker has more potential to score for his team. Where is the harm in that?

Personally, I would be going for Horn than Walker (Sorry MOP

). I think Walker is hurting himself by sitting out right now, and Driver is more capable of cutting into Walker's numbers than Stallworth would into Horn's. I am a firm believer that stats alone won't win you fantasy championships. You have to see how the team is functioning as a whole. Just look as SF last year as an example.

I like Driver right now and can be picked up a few rounds later...I think he is in the Driver's seat!

Monkeyface Prickleback · Jul 7, 2005

I think either would be worthy at that draft position. You are talking preference. Horn has been going about the 7th WR and Walker the 8th.

Horn:

| 2000 nor | 16 | 6 18 3.0 0 | 94 1340 14.3 8 |

| 2001 nor | 16 | 1 4 4.0 0 | 83 1265 15.2 9 |

| 2002 nor | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 88 1312 14.9 7 |

| 2003 nor | 15 | 2 15 7.5 0 | 78 973 12.5 10 |

| 2004 nor | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 94 1399 14.9 11

Walker:

| 2002 gnb | 15 | 1 11 11.0 0 | 23 319 13.9 1 |

| 2003 gnb | 16 | 2 1 0.5 0 | 41 716 17.5 9 |

| 2004 gnb | 16 | 0 0 0.0 0 | 89 1382 15.5 12

MOP is saying that he feels (using his gut which is what most of us do when making these predictions) that Walker has more potential to score for his team. Where is the harm in that?

Personally, I would be going for Horn than Walker (Sorry MOP ). I think Walker is hurting himself by sitting out right now, and Driver is more capable of cutting into Walker's numbers than Stallworth would into Horn's. I am a firm believer that stats alone won't win you fantasy championships. You have to see how the team is functioning as a whole. Just look as SF last year as an example.

I like Driver right now and can be picked up a few rounds later...I think he is in the Driver's seat!

I am not, nor have I, argued which WR should be taken. My point has always been that MOP is contending Horn has never been a difference-maker for him. Fine. But, he also goes on to contend that, while he's grabbed Horn for many years, he never drafted him BEFORE the fourth round.Well, since he won't answer my question, maybe you can. How in the world is Horn (in the fourth) holding him down? Or, how is he even soured on the thought of it?

kutta · Jul 7, 2005

Good, I'm glad we finally got somewhere.

So, you've been drafting Horn too early for years, now. Fine. But, you probably shouldn't hold that against him.

Click to expand...

Oh so now Horn is not top 10 material to you. Whatever I write you are set to go the other way so be it. You are obviously wanting to get the last word in and since I started this thread I am not going to abandon it just because you went and hijacked it. I was above the groin punches and wished you gl on your season not once but twice in hopes you would post in another thread...still you must twist my words to whatever suits you behind the desk you are sitting in.

We don't agree on anything in this thread so far...you went off topic and thought you could frame me as a no-nothing because I simply think of the 3 or 4 WR that were available at 2.12 and 3.01 that CJ and JW were the best options...you didn't and that was fine...there is nothing to argue over...you want Horn than take him...is 3.1 an over value? I have never taken him b4 the 4th round so if I had him ranked 4th on my board of WR and was able to snare him in the 4th round than I didn't reach did I my bright new friend? Let it go...let it go...

Click to expand...

Please comment on the following, which you stated. Maybe it will clarify things.

"he (Horn) has been on my team for a long time and he never really makes "the difference" in me winning or losing...in fact some years he has had a rather slow start."

Click to expand...

You now contend that you never got him before the fourth round, right? Yet, you also say Horn has never made the difference for you? How in the world is Horn in the fourth keeping you down. Do tell.

Dude, what is up?MOP is a very respected poster here most of us enjoy reading what he has to say. He used a specific example from his own experience to show that at 3.01 you really want a guy that will win games for you. Horn is not that guy. He thinks Walker is.

You disagree. Let it go. All the :lmao:

and

in the world will not get you listened to or respected. How about offering some insight?

nerangers · Jul 7, 2005

I think either would be worthy at that draft position. You are talking preference. Horn has been going about the 7th WR and Walker the 8th.

Horn:

| 2000 nor | 16 |    6    18 3.0 0 | 94   1340 14.3 8 |

| 2001 nor | 16 |    1 4 4.0 0 | 83   1265 15.2 9 |

| 2002 nor | 16 |    0 0 0.0 0 | 88   1312 14.9 7 |

| 2003 nor | 15 |    2    15 7.5 0 | 78 973 12.5   10 |

| 2004 nor | 16 |    0 0 0.0 0 | 94   1399 14.9   11

Walker:

| 2002 gnb | 15 |    1    11   11.0 0 | 23 319 13.9 1 |

| 2003 gnb | 16 |    2 1 0.5 0 | 41 716 17.5 9 |

| 2004 gnb | 16 |    0 0 0.0 0 | 89   1382 15.5   12

MOP is saying that he feels (using his gut which is what most of us do when making these predictions) that Walker has more potential to score for his team. Where is the harm in that?

Personally, I would be going for Horn than Walker (Sorry MOP ). I think Walker is hurting himself by sitting out right now, and Driver is more capable of cutting into Walker's numbers than Stallworth would into Horn's. I am a firm believer that stats alone won't win you fantasy championships. You have to see how the team is functioning as a whole. Just look as SF last year as an example.

I like Driver right now and can be picked up a few rounds later...I think he is in the Driver's seat!

Click to expand...

I am not, nor have I, argued which WR should be taken. My point has always been that MOP is contending Horn has never been a difference-maker for him. Fine. But, he also goes on to contend that, while he's grabbed Horn for many years, he never drafted him BEFORE the fourth round.Well, since he won't answer my question, maybe you can. How in the world is Horn (in the fourth) holding him down? Or, how is he even soured on the thought of it?

Horn puts up the numbers he is expected to put up at that draft position. That does not mean he is a difference maker. Difference makers last year were players like Keenan McCardell, Drew Bennett, Curtis Martin, and Tiki Barbar. Your difference makers always seem to come in later rounds (although Peyton's numbers were great for a first round pick). I am not sure I fully understand what you are so hung up on. It is not like MOP doesn't like Horn, else he would not have drafted him so many times. :2cents:

oooh, add Antonio Gates to that list!

Monkeyface Prickleback · Jul 7, 2005

Good, I'm glad we finally got somewhere.

So, you've been drafting Horn too early for years, now. Fine. But, you probably shouldn't hold that against him.

Click to expand...

Oh so now Horn is not top 10 material to you. Whatever I write you are set to go the other way so be it. You are obviously wanting to get the last word in and since I started this thread I am not going to abandon it just because you went and hijacked it. I was above the groin punches and wished you gl on your season not once but twice in hopes you would post in another thread...still you must twist my words to whatever suits you behind the desk you are sitting in.

We don't agree on anything in this thread so far...you went off topic and thought you could frame me as a no-nothing because I simply think of the 3 or 4 WR that were available at 2.12 and 3.01 that CJ and JW were the best options...you didn't and that was fine...there is nothing to argue over...you want Horn than take him...is 3.1 an over value? I have never taken him b4 the 4th round so if I had him ranked 4th on my board of WR and was able to snare him in the 4th round than I didn't reach did I my bright new friend? Let it go...let it go...

Click to expand...

Please comment on the following, which you stated. Maybe it will clarify things.

"he (Horn) has been on my team for a long time and he never really makes "the difference" in me winning or losing...in fact some years he has had a rather slow start."

Click to expand...

You now contend that you never got him before the fourth round, right? Yet, you also say Horn has never made the difference for you? How in the world is Horn in the fourth keeping you down. Do tell.

Click to expand...

Dude, what is up?MOP is a very respected poster here most of us enjoy reading what he has to say. He used a specific example from his own experience to show that at 3.01 you really want a guy that will win games for you. Horn is not that guy. He thinks Walker is.

You disagree. Let it go. All the and in the world will not get you listened to or respected. How about offering some insight?

You, like others, don't read my posts. It's more than apparent by your comments. For the last time, I AM NOT DEBATING WHO SHOULE BE TAKEN THERE, OKAY? That is not my argument.Maybe if you didn't focus so much on member numbers, you might see that there are valid opinions from others that didn't line up April 14th.

In all, I am asking a simple question, which has yet to be answered. Try looking/reading it openly. I might have a point. See if you can answer the question in my previous post. Thanks.

kutta · Jul 7, 2005

Good, I'm glad we finally got somewhere.

So, you've been drafting Horn too early for years, now. Fine. But, you probably shouldn't hold that against him.

Click to expand...

Oh so now Horn is not top 10 material to you. Whatever I write you are set to go the other way so be it. You are obviously wanting to get the last word in and since I started this thread I am not going to abandon it just because you went and hijacked it. I was above the groin punches and wished you gl on your season not once but twice in hopes you would post in another thread...still you must twist my words to whatever suits you behind the desk you are sitting in.

We don't agree on anything in this thread so far...you went off topic and thought you could frame me as a no-nothing because I simply think of the 3 or 4 WR that were available at 2.12 and 3.01 that CJ and JW were the best options...you didn't and that was fine...there is nothing to argue over...you want Horn than take him...is 3.1 an over value? I have never taken him b4 the 4th round so if I had him ranked 4th on my board of WR and was able to snare him in the 4th round than I didn't reach did I my bright new friend? Let it go...let it go...

Click to expand...

Please comment on the following, which you stated. Maybe it will clarify things.

"he (Horn) has been on my team for a long time and he never really makes "the difference" in me winning or losing...in fact some years he has had a rather slow start."

Click to expand...

You now contend that you never got him before the fourth round, right? Yet, you also say Horn has never made the difference for you? How in the world is Horn in the fourth keeping you down. Do tell.

Click to expand...

Dude, what is up?MOP is a very respected poster here most of us enjoy reading what he has to say. He used a specific example from his own experience to show that at 3.01 you really want a guy that will win games for you. Horn is not that guy. He thinks Walker is.

You disagree. Let it go. All the and in the world will not get you listened to or respected. How about offering some insight?

Click to expand...

You, like others, don't read my posts. It's more than apparent by your comments. For the last time, I AM NOT DEBATING WHO SHOULE BE TAKEN THERE, OKAY? That is not my argument.Maybe if you didn't focus so much on member numbers, you might see that there are valid opinions from others that didn't line up April 14th.

In all, I am asking a simple question, which has yet to be answered. Try looking/reading it openly. I might have a point. See if you can answer the question in my previous post. Thanks.

Please see bolded comments above for the answer to your question. Settle down. Take a pill. It's going to be OK.

Monkeyface Prickleback · Jul 7, 2005

Whatever. It's funny to think that MOP never took Horn earlier than the 4th, for YEARS mind you, but that Horn also never did much for him. :lol:

Ya gotta love it.

Jackal King · Jul 7, 2005

1.01 LT2 RB (I would think universal consensus)On the first turn...if any of the top 5 WR's are there you should take em. If two are there, I take them both. If none of the 5 are there, I take my 6th rated WR and a RB. Westbrook or Bell are logical choices. 2.12 Tatum Bell RB 3.01 Javon Walker WROn the 4/5 turn...I counter my moves at 2.12 and 3.01. If I split there, I split here.If I went RB, RB...I go WR, WR here.4.12 Warrick Dunn RB5.01 Anquan Boldin WRI'm with you here too...although I like Shockey a bit more than Crumpler. I also look at QB situation with 7.01. If I'm drop dead certain I can get Brooks at 8.12, then I'll wait. But...if there is a question, I use 7.01 to get my QB1...and Plummer looks like a steal to me in the 7th round.6.12 Alge Crumpler TE7.01 Isaac Bruce WRI wouldn't go for QB2 here too fast. Griese or Big Ben would suit me fine at QB2, and should be available.8.12 Aaron Brooks QB9.01 Keyshawn Johnson WRI think Byron is gone by 10.12.10.12 Byron leftwich QB

Ministry of Pain · Jul 7, 2005

1.01 LT2 RB (I would think universal consensus)

On the first turn...if any of the top 5 WR's are there you should take em. If two are there, I take them both. If none of the 5 are there, I take my 6th rated WR and a RB. Westbrook or Bell are logical choices.

2.12 Tatum Bell RB

3.01 Javon Walker WR

On the 4/5 turn...I counter my moves at 2.12 and 3.01. If I split there, I split here.

If I went RB, RB...I go WR, WR here.

4.12 Warrick Dunn RB

5.01 Anquan Boldin WR

I'm with you here too...although I like Shockey a bit more than Crumpler. I also look at QB situation with 7.01. If I'm drop dead certain I can get Brooks at 8.12, then I'll wait. But...if there is a question, I use 7.01 to get my QB1...and Plummer looks like a steal to me in the 7th round.

6.12 Alge Crumpler TE

7.01 Isaac Bruce WR

I wouldn't go for QB2 here too fast. Griese or Big Ben would suit me fine at QB2, and should be available.

8.12 Aaron Brooks QB

9.01 Keyshawn Johnson WR

I think Byron is gone by 10.12.

10.12 Byron leftwich QB

Great stuff JK, thanks for helping us get back on topic and track.

nerangers · Jul 7, 2005

Decided to play with the DD from the first position. Man I struggled due to bye weeks...everytime I reached for someone, I already had players with the same bye week. I don't mind maybe once, but it kept happening.1.1 RB LT (everyone seems to be doing it)2.12 WR Chad Johnson (top five WR)3.1 RB Brian Westbrook (nice #2 RB)4.12 RB JJ Arrington (bye week issue with Westbrook - trade bait?)5.1 TE Jason Witten (top three TE)6.12 QB Jake Plummer (top 10 QB - good potential)7.1 WR Lee Evans (not sure here with JP thowing the pigskin)8.12 RB Jerome Bettis (trade bait?)9.1 K Vanderjact (I never grab my Kicker this early)10.12 WR David GivensRemaining eight drafted: WR Lloyd, WR Randel El, Def NY Jets, QB Kyle Boller, K Stover, Def Cinncy, WR Curry, RB FargusNotes: As a rule i never draft a second Def or Kicker, I would have been happy enough with Stover when I drafted him.I would be happy starting LT, Westbrook, Johnson, Witten, Plummer, and Vanderjact every week.Edited Note: I let the computer draft from the first positon to see what would happen.Still ended up with Plummer (a round later though), LT, Westbrook, Arrington, Witten, Johnson, Givens and Jets Defense (I reached too early by two rounds based on the computer but the computer took Buffalo in round 8). I would have ended up with Elam as my kicker (no complaints), Griese as my backup QB (like better than Boller) but no real WRs after Johnson (Price, Gaffney, Berrian).

Tick · Jul 8, 2005

I've been messing around with the No Mercy drafts...At picks 24/25, you can get these players in this many drafts out of 7:Culpepper 1Owens 1Holt 4Chad 5Bell 4Harrison 5LJordan 3All the guys below that (SJackson, Horn, McNabb, Gonzo, Walker, CBrown, Gates, etc.) are available in all 7 drafts.At picks 48/49, you can get:MBennett 1Ward 1RBrown 1Staley 2Benson 2Burleson 3FTaylor 3DBennett 3RoyWill 5SSmith 5Boldin 6Foster 6Barlow 6Coles 6Suggs 6Bulger, Driver, Bruce, Fitz, Chambers, TGreen, etc. are avaiable in all 7 drafts at 48/49.Now on to 72/73...TGreen 1Witten 1Mason 2KCollins 1JSmith 2Shockey 1Porter 4Crumpler 4Lelie 4Favre 5RSmith 4Moulds 4Branch 6Muhammad 6Heap 6Duckett 4Henry 6Plummer 6Vick 5Brooks 6Evans 6Ravens 6Droughns 6TJones 6Brady 6MMoore 6Hasselbeck 6Kennison, McMichael, Burress, MFaulk, DClark, Bettis, SMoss, Stokley, Housh, CPalmer, etc were available in all 7.

footballman_696969 · Jul 8, 2005

I've been messing around with the No Mercy drafts...

At picks 24/25, you can get these players in this many drafts out of 7:

Culpepper 1

Owens 1

Holt 4

Chad 5

Bell 4

Harrison 5

LJordan 3

All the guys below that (SJackson, Horn, McNabb, Gonzo, Walker, CBrown, Gates, etc.) are available in all 7 drafts.

At picks 48/49, you can get:

MBennett 1

Ward 1

RBrown 1

Staley 2

Benson 2

Burleson 3

FTaylor 3

DBennett 3

RoyWill 5

SSmith 5

Boldin 6

Foster 6

Barlow 6

Coles 6

Suggs 6

Bulger, Driver, Bruce, Fitz, Chambers, TGreen, etc. are avaiable in all 7 drafts at 48/49.

Now on to 72/73...

TGreen 1

Witten 1

Mason 2

KCollins 1

JSmith 2

Shockey 1

Porter 4

Crumpler 4

Lelie 4

Favre 5

RSmith 4

Moulds 4

Branch 6

Muhammad 6

Heap 6

Duckett 4

Henry 6

Plummer 6

Vick 5

Brooks 6

Evans 6

Ravens 6

Droughns 6

TJones 6

Brady 6

MMoore 6

Hasselbeck 6

Kennison, McMichael, Burress, MFaulk, DClark, Bettis, SMoss, Stokley, Housh, CPalmer, etc were available in all 7.

Thanks, Tick. After looking over the lists, my draft would looks like this:LT2

Bell

Holt

M.Bennett

Ward

Heap

Jimmy Smith

Best QB Available

Best Qb Available

David Yudkin · Jul 8, 2005

After looking over the lists, my draft would looks like this:LT2BellHoltM.BennettWardHeapJimmy SmithBest QB AvailableBest Qb Available

I guess every league is different, but in my No Mercy draft, Holt went early 2nd, Bennett late 2nd, and Ward wouldn't have been there either.

Tick · Jul 8, 2005

Seven NM drafts... here's who was available at each pick for each draft from the 1 spot.GW:24/25: Owens, Chad, Jordan, Jackson, Horn, McNabb available.48/49: Staley, Burleson, FTaylor, Foster, Bulger, Barlow, Coles, Driver 72/73: Suggs, Porter, Crumpler, Moulds, Muhammad, Heap, DuckettHH:24/25: Holt, Chad, Harrison, Jackson, Horn, McNabb48/49: MBennett, Staley, DBennett, RoyWill, SSmith, Bulger, Barlow, Coles, Driver72/73: Crumpler, Favre, RSmith, Branch, Muhammad, HeapBarracuda:24/25: Holt, Chad, Harrison, Jackson, Horn, McNabb48/49: Benson, DBennett, RoyWill, SSmith, Boldin, Foster, Bulger, Barlow, Coles, Driver72/73: Mason, Porter, Lelie, Favre, RSmith, Moulds, Muhammad, DuckettPirahna:24/25: Holt, Chad, Bell, Harrison, Jackson, Horn48/49: FTaylor, DBennett, SSmith, Boldin, Foster, Bulger, Barlow, Coles, Driver72/73: Porter, Crumpler, Lelie, Favre, RSmith, Moulds, Branch, Heap, DuckettKestrel:24/25: Chad, Bell, Harrison, Jordan, Jackson, Horn, McNabb48/49: Benson, Burleson, Ftaylor, RoyWill, Boldin, Foster, Bulger, Coles, DRiver72/73: TGreen, Collins, JSmith, RSmith, Moulds, Branch, Muhammad, HeapGuppy:24/25: Holt, Bell, Jackson, Horn, McNabb48/49: Ward, RoyWill, SSmith, Boldin, Foster, Bulger, Barlow, Coles, Driver72/73: JSmith, Porter, Lelie, Favre, Branch, Muhammad, Heap, DuckettGrubs:24/25: Chad, Bell, Harrison, Jackson, Horn, McNabb48/49: Cadillac, RBrown, Burleson, SSmith, Boldin, Foster, Bulger, Barlow, Driver72/73: Witten, Mason, Shockey, Crumpler, Branch, Heap, Duckett

Tick · Jul 9, 2005

Edited for clarity - I thought there'd be a response to this last post...

ninerfan · Jul 9, 2005

I have a straight-forward approach to drafting and use it no matter what pick I get. Coincidentally, I do happen to have the first pick in one of my $250 leagues this year.I'm a big proponent of grabbing three RB's in the first four rounds and then loading up on WRs until round seven and then drafting my starting QB. After that, I simply fill in the holes in my starting lineup and look for back-ups that are starter quality. I NEVER draft a TE before the 8th round (I usually wait and take someone like Bubba Franks in the 11th-12th).Using this approach, here are the players I would have drafted using Antsports average draft info. This is for a normal lineup, 16 player roster, start 1 QB, 2 RB, 2 WR, 1 TE, 1 D/ST, 1 PK:1.01. RB - Tomlinson2.12. WR - C. Johnson3.01. RB - Bell (Foster was available)4.12. RB - Dunn5.01. WR - Boldin6.12. WR - Coles7.01. QB - Brady8.12. WR - Rod Smith9.01. TE - E. Johnson10.12. WR - Kennison11.01. QB - Griese12.12. D/ST - Panthers13.01. RB - Clarett14.12. RB - Chatman15.01. PK - Longwell16.12. 6th RB or 3rd QB (if the quality is there) Often I'll take a flier on a RB until the first bye week for my defense or kicker.So my starting lineup and backups would be:QB - Brady, Griese (maybe a 3rd QB)RB1 - Tomlinson, Chatman, (maybe Michael Turner)RB2 - Bell, Dunn, ClarettWR1 - C. Johnson, R. SmithWR2 - Boldin, Coles, KennisonTE - E. JohnsonPK - LongwellD/ST - Panthers

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