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Shanahan vs. Belichick (1 Viewer)

thesurfshop19

Footballguy
Am I missing something here?

Shanahan has 2 rings as head coach. Belichick has 3.

Shanahan was one of the best offensive coordinators in both Denver and San Francisco, going to 3 Super Bowls (2 losses with Denver, 1 win with San Francisco) and 6 AFC/NFC championship games. (A 4th Super Bowl and 7th championship game came as QB coach of the Broncos when he joined Denver in the middle of the season after being fired by Oakland.)

Belichick's record as an assistant speaks for itself with titles with the Giants, a SB appearance with the Patriots, and an AFC championship game loss with the Jets.

Shanahan is 3-1 against Belichick & Brady, although inexperience (Brady's first 4 INTs of his career in 2001) and injuries play a role in that.

Strictly from a coaching matchup standpoint, why is Belichick such an overwhelming favorite here?

(Just so it's clear, I think the Patriots are extremely dangerous and I actually picked them to beat the Broncos this weekend. It may be an emotional hedge pick, I'm not sure. Brady is IMO league MVP this season. But I just don't see how Belichick has Shanahan overmatched in this one tactically.)

 
Am I missing something here?

Shanahan has 2 rings as head coach. Belichick has 3.

Shanahan was one of the best offensive coordinators in both Denver and San Francisco, going to 3 Super Bowls (2 losses with Denver, 1 win with San Francisco) and 6 AFC/NFC championship games. (A 4th Super Bowl and 7th championship game came as QB coach of the Broncos when he joined Denver in the middle of the season after being fired by Oakland.)

Belichick's record as an assistant speaks for itself with titles with the Giants, a SB appearance with the Patriots, and an AFC championship game loss with the Jets.

Shanahan is 3-1 against Belichick & Brady, although inexperience (Brady's first 4 INTs of his career in 2001) and injuries play a role in that.

Strictly from a coaching matchup standpoint, why is Belichick such an overwhelming favorite here?

(Just so it's clear, I think the Patriots are extremely dangerous and I actually picked them to beat the Broncos this weekend. It may be an emotional hedge pick, I'm not sure. Brady is IMO league MVP this season. But I just don't see how Belichick has Shanahan overmatched in this one tactically.)
I would say that the reason for this is because Shanny never did it without Elway, from a head coaching standpoint. One could potentially say the same about Bellicheck and Brady, but at this stage for whatever reason Brady is not thought of in the same light as Elway.
 
I would say that the reason for this is because Shanny never did it without Elway, from a head coaching standpoint. One could potentially say the same about Bellicheck and Brady, but at this stage for whatever reason Brady is not thought of in the same light as Elway.
How many teams have won championships in the last several years without an elite QB? Two (2000 Ravens, 2002 Bucs).Aikman, Young, Favre, Elway, Warner, and Brady have won the other 11 titles since 1992.

I think Brady is undoubtedly in Elway's category ... in fact I think if you take him off the Patriots and replace him with a Trent Green or Drew Brees-caliber player, the Patriots finish 7-9 or 8-8 at best this season.

 
I would say that the reason for this is because Shanny never did it without Elway, from a head coaching standpoint. One could potentially say the same about Bellicheck and Brady, but at this stage for whatever reason Brady is not thought of in the same light as Elway.
How many teams have won championships in the last several years without an elite QB? Two (2000 Ravens, 2002 Bucs).Aikman, Young, Favre, Elway, Warner, and Brady have won the other 11 titles since 1992.

I think Brady is undoubtedly in Elway's category ... in fact I think if you take him off the Patriots and replace him with a Trent Green or Drew Brees-caliber player, the Patriots finish 7-9 or 8-8 at best this season.
I completely agree. Which is why it does seem curious that Bellicheck is the thought of as so much of a great coach that Shannihan. Perhaps then it is because BB won his first with Brady as a rookie, where as Elway was clearly the great Elway when Shanny won with his titles.
 
Am I missing something here?

Shanahan has 2 rings as head coach.  Belichick has 3.

Shanahan was one of the best offensive coordinators in both Denver and San Francisco, going to 3 Super Bowls (2 losses with Denver, 1 win with San Francisco) and 6 AFC/NFC championship games.  (A 4th Super Bowl and 7th championship game came as QB coach of the Broncos when he joined Denver in the middle of the season after being fired by Oakland.)

Belichick's record as an assistant speaks for itself with titles with the Giants, a SB appearance with the Patriots, and an AFC championship game loss with the Jets.

Shanahan is 3-1 against Belichick & Brady, although inexperience (Brady's first 4 INTs of his career in 2001) and injuries play a role in that.

Strictly from a coaching matchup standpoint, why is Belichick such an overwhelming favorite here?

(Just so it's clear, I think the Patriots are extremely dangerous and I actually picked them to beat the Broncos this weekend.  It may be an emotional hedge pick, I'm not sure.  Brady is IMO league MVP this season.  But I just don't see how Belichick has Shanahan overmatched in this one tactically.)
I would say that the reason for this is because Shanny never did it without Elway,
Nothing more needs to be said. You could say the same thing for Belichick but the exception is Belichick still has his 'John Elway' playing.And just this argument doesn't spawn multiple pages, let me end it here. "Jake Plummer".

 
You might have beat me to the punch.Elway / TD won to championships not shanny.How many PO games has shanny won since???

 
I would say that the reason for this is because Shanny never did it without Elway, from a head coaching standpoint.  One could potentially say the same about Bellicheck and Brady, but at this stage for whatever reason Brady is not thought of in the same light as Elway.
How many teams have won championships in the last several years without an elite QB? Two (2000 Ravens, 2002 Bucs).Aikman, Young, Favre, Elway, Warner, and Brady have won the other 11 titles since 1992.

I think Brady is undoubtedly in Elway's category ... in fact I think if you take him off the Patriots and replace him with a Trent Green or Drew Brees-caliber player, the Patriots finish 7-9 or 8-8 at best this season.
I completely agree. Which is why it does seem curious that Bellicheck is the thought of as so much of a great coach that Shannihan. Perhaps then it is because BB won his first with Brady as a rookie, where as Elway was clearly the great Elway when Shanny won with his titles.
Good points. It was also a long time ago, so people forget that Elway never won a playoff game without Shanahan either, and in fact had to deal with a lot of that criticism until Shanahan returned in 1995.
 
I would say that the reason for this is because Shanny never did it without Elway,
Nothing more needs to be said. You could say the same thing for Belichick but the exception is Belichick still has his 'John Elway' playing.And just this argument doesn't spawn multiple pages, let me end it here. "Jake Plummer".
I agree with you here ... and I feel like this should factor in when people talk about the coaches.Shanahan vs. Belichick doesn't seem like the mismatch here. If there is one, it may be Plummer vs. Brady (arguable this season, but you get the point, I'm not trying to start that argument).

 
I would say that the reason for this is because Shanny never did it without Elway, from a head coaching standpoint.   One could potentially say the same about Bellicheck and Brady, but at this stage for whatever reason Brady is not thought of in the same light as Elway.
How many teams have won championships in the last several years without an elite QB? Two (2000 Ravens, 2002 Bucs).Aikman, Young, Favre, Elway, Warner, and Brady have won the other 11 titles since 1992.

I think Brady is undoubtedly in Elway's category ... in fact I think if you take him off the Patriots and replace him with a Trent Green or Drew Brees-caliber player, the Patriots finish 7-9 or 8-8 at best this season.
I completely agree. Which is why it does seem curious that Bellicheck is the thought of as so much of a great coach that Shannihan. Perhaps then it is because BB won his first with Brady as a rookie, where as Elway was clearly the great Elway when Shanny won with his titles.
Good points. It was also a long time ago, so people forget that Elway never won a playoff game without Shanahan either, and in fact had to deal with a lot of that criticism until Shanahan returned in 1995.
Weird. How did elway play in those other Superbowls without ever winning a game?
 
Am I missing something here?

Shanahan has 2 rings as head coach.  Belichick has 3.

Shanahan was one of the best offensive coordinators in both Denver and San Francisco, going to 3 Super Bowls (2 losses with Denver, 1 win with San Francisco) and 6 AFC/NFC championship games.  (A 4th Super Bowl and 7th championship game came as QB coach of the Broncos when he joined Denver in the middle of the season after being fired by Oakland.)

Belichick's record as an assistant speaks for itself with titles with the Giants, a SB appearance with the Patriots, and an AFC championship game loss with the Jets.

Shanahan is 3-1 against Belichick & Brady, although inexperience (Brady's first 4 INTs of his career in 2001) and injuries play a role in that.

Strictly from a coaching matchup standpoint, why is Belichick such an overwhelming favorite here?

(Just so it's clear, I think the Patriots are extremely dangerous and I actually picked them to beat the Broncos this weekend.  It may be an emotional hedge pick, I'm not sure.  Brady is IMO league MVP this season.  But I just don't see how Belichick has Shanahan overmatched in this one tactically.)
I would say that the reason for this is because Shanny never did it without Elway, from a head coaching standpoint. One could potentially say the same about Bellicheck and Brady, but at this stage for whatever reason Brady is not thought of in the same light as Elway.
I think they're thought of pretty closely...Who is the 2nd best QB ever?

Tom Brady [ 16 ] [30.77%]

John Elway [ 23 ] [44.23%]

Dan Marino [ 12 ] [23.08%]

Total Votes: 51

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...219742&hl=elway

 
Good points. It was also a long time ago, so people forget that Elway never won a playoff game without Shanahan either, and in fact had to deal with a lot of that criticism until Shanahan returned in 1995.
Weird. How did elway play in those other Superbowls without ever winning a game?
:rolleyes: :hophead: Shanahan was the offensive coordinator (or QB coach in 1989) in every single Elway playoff victory.

 
I would say that the reason for this is because Shanny never did it without Elway, from a head coaching standpoint.  One could potentially say the same about Bellicheck and Brady, but at this stage for whatever reason Brady is not thought of in the same light as Elway.
How many teams have won championships in the last several years without an elite QB? Two (2000 Ravens, 2002 Bucs).Aikman, Young, Favre, Elway, Warner, and Brady have won the other 11 titles since 1992.

I think Brady is undoubtedly in Elway's category ... in fact I think if you take him off the Patriots and replace him with a Trent Green or Drew Brees-caliber player, the Patriots finish 7-9 or 8-8 at best this season.
I completely agree. Which is why it does seem curious that Bellicheck is the thought of as so much of a great coach that Shannihan. Perhaps then it is because BB won his first with Brady as a rookie, where as Elway was clearly the great Elway when Shanny won with his titles.
Bellicheck has a losing career record without Brady.....just food for thought.
 
Am I missing something here?

Shanahan has 2 rings as head coach. Belichick has 3.

Shanahan was one of the best offensive coordinators in both Denver and San Francisco, going to 3 Super Bowls (2 losses with Denver, 1 win with San Francisco) and 6 AFC/NFC championship games. (A 4th Super Bowl and 7th championship game came as QB coach of the Broncos when he joined Denver in the middle of the season after being fired by Oakland.)

Belichick's record as an assistant speaks for itself with titles with the Giants, a SB appearance with the Patriots, and an AFC championship game loss with the Jets.

Shanahan is 3-1 against Belichick & Brady, although inexperience (Brady's first 4 INTs of his career in 2001) and injuries play a role in that.

Strictly from a coaching matchup standpoint, why is Belichick such an overwhelming favorite here?

(Just so it's clear, I think the Patriots are extremely dangerous and I actually picked them to beat the Broncos this weekend. It may be an emotional hedge pick, I'm not sure. Brady is IMO league MVP this season. But I just don't see how Belichick has Shanahan overmatched in this one tactically.)
I would say that the reason for this is because Shanny never did it without Elway, from a head coaching standpoint. One could potentially say the same about Bellicheck and Brady, but at this stage for whatever reason Brady is not thought of in the same light as Elway.
I think they're thought of pretty closely...Who is the 2nd best QB ever?

Tom Brady [ 16 ] [30.77%]

John Elway [ 23 ] [44.23%]

Dan Marino [ 12 ] [23.08%]

Total Votes: 51

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...219742&hl=elway
That is too small of a sample to be statistically significant.
Good points. It was also a long time ago, so people forget that Elway never won a playoff game without Shanahan either, and in fact had to deal with a lot of that criticism until Shanahan returned in 1995.
Weird. How did elway play in those other Superbowls without ever winning a game?
:rolleyes: :hophead: Shanahan was the offensive coordinator (or QB coach in 1989) in every single Elway playoff victory.
Thank you. Personally, I find this matchup fascinating. You have the best defensive mind in the game vs. the best offensive mind in the game. Thus far, Shanahan is 3-1 vs. Belichick this century, so it will be interesting to see if Belichick can turn the tables. Regardless of who wins, I think we are talking about two of the best three or four coaches in the game.

 
because belichick is everyone's darling right now. they're the current dynasty so the patriots get the credit. when someone else wins, they will be the darlings of the nfl. just like usc got beat by ut and vince became the shiznit.

 
I would say that the reason for this is because Shanny never did it without Elway, from a head coaching standpoint.  One could potentially say the same about Bellicheck and Brady, but at this stage for whatever reason Brady is not thought of in the same light as Elway.
How many teams have won championships in the last several years without an elite QB? Two (2000 Ravens, 2002 Bucs).Aikman, Young, Favre, Elway, Warner, and Brady have won the other 11 titles since 1992.
I' disagree with that. The answer's three; either the Ravens/Bucs/Rams, or the Ravens/Bucs/Patriots.If you want to look at how a player's career turned out, then Kurt Warner was not a stud QB. Marc Bulger and Trent Green had similar success under Vermeil, and none of the three were drafted in the first five rounds. The only way you can say the Rams won with a stud QB is to argue that Warner was a stud in 1999.

But if you say that, then there's no way to argue that Brady was a stud QB in 2001. 2,843 yards and 18 TDs? >150 yards in the AFCC + SB, and just one TD throw in 97 post-season passes.

Brady was absolutely a stud when the Pats won in 2004; 2003 is dicier IMO, but you could classify him as a stud based on the SB performance.

 
I' disagree with that. The answer's three; either the Ravens/Bucs/Rams, or the Ravens/Bucs/Patriots.

If you want to look at how a player's career turned out, then Kurt Warner was not a stud QB. Marc Bulger and Trent Green had similar success under Vermeil, and none of the three were drafted in the first five rounds. The only way you can say the Rams won with a stud QB is to argue that Warner was a stud in 1999.

But if you say that, then there's no way to argue that Brady was a stud QB in 2001. 2,843 yards and 18 TDs? >150 yards in the AFCC + SB, and just one TD throw in 97 post-season passes.

Brady was absolutely a stud when the Pats won in 2004; 2003 is dicier IMO, but you could classify him as a stud based on the SB performance.
Fair enough. My take is basically this ....Warner was amazing from 1999-2001, putting up video game numbers in one of the greatest 3-year runs ever. He made every throw in the book, so I think during that time period he was an elite QB.

As for Brady, I feel he's been the best QB in the game for 3 years now. I completely agree that he certainly wasn't in 2001, when he led the Patriots to only 2 offensive TDs and didn't play much of the AFC championship game, but he made the plays when he had to against the Raiders and Rams, so perhaps we can just say that a star was born then.

 
Am I missing something here?Shanahan has 2 rings as head coach. Belichick has 3.
When Belicheck has been a HC as long as Shanahan has right now, still think this will be that close? ;)
 
Am I missing something here?

Shanahan has 2 rings as head coach.  Belichick has 3.
When Belicheck has been a HC as long as Shanahan has right now, still think this will be that close? ;)
Interesting question. I'd lean towards 1 more Super Bowl title for Belichick with Brady. I want to say 2, but with Manning, Roethlisberger, and Palmer busting out as top-flight AFC QBs it's going to come down to the supporting cast, which is tough to keep in the salary cap era.I also think that Shanahan might have had 1 more if he'd been hired as the Denver head coach instead of Wade Phillips in 1993 since he'd have 2 more seasons with Elway.

I will say this ... if Denver somehow wins the Super Bowl this year (and I think they have ~10% shot), I think we'd immediately have to vault Shanahan over Belichick in the head coach rankings. What do you think?

 
because belichick is everyone's darling right now. they're the current dynasty so the patriots get the credit. when someone else wins, they will be the darlings of the nfl. just like usc got beat by ut and vince became the shiznit.
Agreed. Remember when Tampa won the SB, and John Gruden was considered by many sports bobbleheads to be the best coach in the NFL?Blame it on the media. Everything has to be the biggest, the best, the most amazing, the most superlative. I think they believe the fans are too unintelligent to appreciate a noteworthy feat without blowing it entirely out of historical proportion.

Bill Belichick has won 3 of 4 SBs. Jimmy Johnson did the same thing (I know he wasn't there for the last SB, but it was his team that did it). Chuck Noll won 4 of 6. Marv Levy made 4 straight. Joe Gibbs won 3 with 3 different QBs and 3 different RBs. So why is Bill Belichick the best ever, and Jimmy Johnson/Chuck Noll/etc. not even in the discussion?

When Belicheck has been a HC as long as Shanahan has right now, still think this will be that close?
Nope. I think it'll be closer, because Shanny's going to win another ring before Belichick does.
 
Nothing more needs to be said. You could say the same thing for Belichick but the exception is Belichick still has his 'John Elway' playing.

And just this argument doesn't spawn multiple pages, let me end it here. "Jake Plummer".
This would be the corect answer. :yes:
 
Nothing more needs to be said. You could say the same thing for Belichick but the exception is Belichick still has his 'John Elway' playing.And just this argument doesn't spawn multiple pages, let me end it here. "Jake Plummer".
Huh. That's funny. And here I was thinking that Plummer was one of the reasons that DEN is playing at home this weekend after the bye.Stupid me.
 
Am I missing something here?

Shanahan has 2 rings as head coach.  Belichick has 3.
When Belicheck has been a HC as long as Shanahan has right now, still think this will be that close? ;)
Interesting question. I'd lean towards 1 more Super Bowl title for Belichick with Brady. I want to say 2, but with Manning, Roethlisberger,Bollinger, and Palmer busting out as top-flight AFC QBs it's going to come down to the supporting cast, which is tough to keep in the salary cap era.I also think that Shanahan might have had 1 more if he'd been hired as the Denver head coach instead of Wade Phillips in 1993 since he'd have 2 more seasons with Elway.

I will say this ... if Denver somehow wins the Super Bowl this year (and I think they have ~10% shot), I think we'd immediately have to vault Shanahan over Belichick in the head coach rankings. What do you think?
Fixed. :cry: :bag:

 
Am I missing something here?

Shanahan has 2 rings as head coach.  Belichick has 3.
When Belicheck has been a HC as long as Shanahan has right now, still think this will be that close? ;)
Interesting question. I'd lean towards 1 more Super Bowl title for Belichick with Brady. I want to say 2, but with Manning, Roethlisberger,Bollinger, and Palmer busting out as top-flight AFC QBs it's going to come down to the supporting cast, which is tough to keep in the salary cap era.I also think that Shanahan might have had 1 more if he'd been hired as the Denver head coach instead of Wade Phillips in 1993 since he'd have 2 more seasons with Elway.

I will say this ... if Denver somehow wins the Super Bowl this year (and I think they have ~10% shot), I think we'd immediately have to vault Shanahan over Belichick in the head coach rankings. What do you think?
Fixed. :cry: :bag:
Looking forward to bumping this thread after Saturday (see my sig). :football:

 
Looking forward to bumping this thread after Saturday (see my sig).

:football:
Out of curiosity, why is this? Seems pretty weak to call someone out after the fact if you don't weigh in beforehand.For the record, it says clearly in the original post that despite my being a huge Denver fan, I'm actually picking the Patriots to win the game.

If they win, though, I don't think it'll be because Belichick has outclassed Shanahan in gameplanning. The mismatch isn't Belichick vs. Shanahan, which IMO is a draw. It's Brady vs. Plummer (as good as he's been this year).

 
For some reason, I keep thinking of the 1993 Oilers when I think of the 2005 Broncos.The 1993 Oilers had limited success in the playoffs in the previous 6 years. Unlike Denver, they had made the playoffs in all 6 previous years, but they were a Wild Card team every single time and never made it past the Divisional round of the playoffs.Finally, in 1993, everything came together and after a slow start (1-4), they ran off 11 straight wins and took the 2nd seed in the AFC playoffs.Their reward for all of this? Joe Montana, Marcus Allen, and the Kansas City Chiefs. The Chiefs ended up beating the Oilers in Houston (their last playoff victory, believe it or not) and Houston lost the Oilers just a few years later.

 
I dug up an interesting article by Vic Ketchum on the subject. http://www.jaguars.com/story/4169.asp

Write it down. Etch it in stone. Great quarterbacks make for great coaches and Brady is without a doubt a great quarterback.
Great article. You need the talent to win the game. Belichick has had some amazing gameplans, most notably vs. the Rams in the Super Bowl and the Colts last season. But if he hadn't gotten Brady, a kid who won a title after being thrown into the fire, he probably has 0 rings right now.
 
Out of curiosity, why is this? Seems pretty weak to call someone out after the fact if you don't weigh in beforehand.

For the record, it says clearly in the original post that despite my being a huge Denver fan, I'm actually picking the Patriots to win the game.

If they win, though, I don't think it'll be because Belichick has outclassed Shanahan in gameplanning. The mismatch isn't Belichick vs. Shanahan, which IMO is a draw. It's Brady vs. Plummer (as good as he's been this year).
The mismatch is Brady vs. Plummer? I never knew that Darrent Williams' injury was so bad that Jake Plummer got switched to our nickle CB spot. Unless you mean that the Broncos are going to snag Ahmen Plummer away from the San Francisco 49ers.Silly me. Here I thought the matchups would be Brady/Branch/Givens vs. Bailey/Williams/Foxworth and Plummer/Smith/Lelie vs. Samuel/Hobbs/Brown (or does Poteat play the nickle? I don't even know who the Patriots have as their #3 CB anymore...). Brady may be a better QB than Plummer, but Bailey/Williams/Foxworth are CERTAINLY better DBs than Samuel/Hobbs/Brown.

 
Good points.  It was also a long time ago, so people forget that Elway never won a playoff game without Shanahan either, and in fact had to deal with a lot of that criticism until Shanahan returned in 1995.
Weird. How did elway play in those other Superbowls without ever winning a game?
:rolleyes: :hophead: Shanahan was the offensive coordinator (or QB coach in 1989) in every single Elway playoff victory.
Shanahan was the head coach in Oakland during the Broncos 1988 Superbowl run! He was fired by Davis in Oak in 1989 after starting 1-4. I'm not sure if he hired on right away with Denver or not but Denver didn't go to the superbowl that year anyway. They went again in 1990.
 
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Shanahan was the head coach in Oakland during the Broncos 1988 Superbowl run! He was fired by Davis in Oak in 1989 after starting 1-4. I'm not sure if he hired on right away with Denver or not but Denver didn't go to the superbowl that year anyway. They went again in 1990.
Why do people correct other people without checking their facts first?These are the 3 1980s Broncos Super Bowl losing teams:

1986

1987

1989

Mike Shanahan's coaching history

Shanahan was OC of the Broncos in 1986 and 1987. When he was HC of the Raiders in 1988, the Bengals went to the Super Bowl. After 4 games in 1989, Shanahan was fired by the Raiders and came back to the Broncos.

 
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Out of curiosity, why is this? Seems pretty weak to call someone out after the fact if you don't weigh in beforehand.

For the record, it says clearly in the original post that despite my being a huge Denver fan, I'm actually picking the Patriots to win the game.

If they win, though, I don't think it'll be because Belichick has outclassed Shanahan in gameplanning. The mismatch isn't Belichick vs. Shanahan, which IMO is a draw. It's Brady vs. Plummer (as good as he's been this year).
The mismatch is Brady vs. Plummer? I never knew that Darrent Williams' injury was so bad that Jake Plummer got switched to our nickle CB spot. Unless you mean that the Broncos are going to snag Ahmen Plummer away from the San Francisco 49ers.Silly me. Here I thought the matchups would be Brady/Branch/Givens vs. Bailey/Williams/Foxworth and Plummer/Smith/Lelie vs. Samuel/Hobbs/Brown (or does Poteat play the nickle? I don't even know who the Patriots have as their #3 CB anymore...). Brady may be a better QB than Plummer, but Bailey/Williams/Foxworth are CERTAINLY better DBs than Samuel/Hobbs/Brown.
No matter what any NE homer says, Bailey/Williams/Foxworth have played better than the Patriots' equivalents this year. But I'm just saying that if there is a mismatch in this game, it's Brady vs. Plummer since Brady has more big-game experience and has beaten arguably better teams than this Bronco squad, although never on the road.I don't mean by this that it's an overwhelming advantage or anything like that. I'm surprised you feel the need to argue this point ....

 
Because Belichick is a genius.
But does genius trump mastermind?
LOLActually, give either of these guys 2 weeks to gameplan & they are damn dangerous. One of the two had it this year...
Like, um, ... last year, or the year before, when the Broncos knew that they had to play the colts in the playoffs in week 16, and 17 was a formality? Are those the great 2 week game plans he's come up with? why is it a mismatch? Because NE has set the record the last 2 years for the number of starters in a season, and last year they won the SB, and this year they're where they are now. And to top it off, Belichick won 2 of the prior 3 superbowls. Let's further break it down. When BB was the DC in NY, and Shanny was the OC, or QB Coach, in Den, NY's, BB engineered D, shut down the Broncos.

Bill Belichick is 11-1 in the playoffs. Mike Shanahan is 5-3. Ten of BB's wins are with Brady, and all of Shannys wins are w/ Elway. But, let's be realistic. Shanny has always been the GM in his playoff games. When BB is the GM, he's 10-0 in the playoffs.

BB is, without question, the greatest defensive schemer in the history of football. Mike Shanahan is a good coach. He's good at utilizing the offense developed by Bill Walsh, with a couple of new twists each week. Not an innovator.

Bill Belichick is great at in game adjustments. Shanahans scripted plays at the outset of each half either work, or they don't. If you can weather the first 15 of each half against the Broncos, you will beat them.

It will be an interesting matchup, and if the Donkeys win it wont be because Shanny outcoaches BB. It will be because the defensive secondary that has 6 players on IR is simply too much of an obstacle to overcome.

 
Bill Belichick has won 3 of 4 SBs. Jimmy Johnson did the same thing (I know he wasn't there for the last SB, but it was his team that did it). Chuck Noll won 4 of 6. Marv Levy made 4 straight. Joe Gibbs won 3 with 3 different QBs and 3 different RBs. So why is Bill Belichick the best ever, and Jimmy Johnson/Chuck Noll/etc. not even in the discussion?
I'm not saying that I agree with the reasoning, but:Belichick is the only one to do it in the "salary cap" era.

I personally think that the press makes WAY too much of this, but that's the general consensus among pundits as to why Belichick's run is considered a greater accomplishment than the others that you mentioned.

 
Like, um, ... last year, or the year before, when the Broncos knew that they had to play the colts in the playoffs  in week 16, and 17 was a formality?  Are those the great 2 week game plans he's come up with? 

why is it a mismatch?  Because NE has set the record the last 2 years for the number of starters in a season, and last year they won the SB, and this year they're where they are now.  And to top it off, Belichick won 2 of the prior 3 superbowls.  Let's further break it down.  When BB was the DC in NY, and Shanny was the OC, or QB Coach, in Den, NY's, BB engineered D, shut down the Broncos. 

Bill Belichick is 11-1 in the playoffs.  Mike Shanahan is 5-3.  Ten of BB's wins are with Brady, and all of Shannys wins are w/ Elway.  But, let's be realistic.  Shanny has always been the GM in his playoff games.  When BB is the GM, he's 10-0 in the playoffs. 

BB is, without question, the greatest defensive schemer in the history of football.  Mike Shanahan is a good coach.  He's good at utilizing the offense developed by Bill Walsh, with a couple of new twists each week.  Not an innovator. 

Bill Belichick is great at in game adjustments.  Shanahans scripted plays at the outset of each half either work, or they don't.  If you can weather the first 15 of each half against the Broncos, you will beat them. 

It will be an interesting matchup, and if the Donkeys win it wont be because Shanny outcoaches BB.  It will be because the defensive secondary that has 6 players on IR is simply too much of an obstacle to overcome.
I think that some of your claims here are absolutely absurd. And I'm on your side in thinking that the Patriots will win Saturday!First, you've already made an excuse if the Patriots lose, which is weak. Basically, any Patriots loss is not the "true" Patriots losing, right? :thumbdown: This is the attitude that wrongly gives other Patriots fans a bad name.

Second, Shanahan is one of the great offensive minds in the history of football as well. He coached one of the great passing offenses of our time (1992-1994 49ers) and perhaps the greatest, most consistent rushing offense we've seen in a long time (current stint with the Broncos). This is not Bill Walsh's offense that was developed in Cincinnati with Paul Brown with "a couple of new twists".

Third, in their biggest-stakes head-to-head meeting, the Broncos beat the Jets 23-10 in the 1998 AFC Championship game, and while Belichick held Denver in check for the 1st half of that game, Shanahan got the better of him. Belichick was the one who didn't make the in-game adjustments, and when Shanahan did the Broncos ripped the Jets.

Fourth, in the Brady era, Shanahan's 3-1 head-to-head against Belichick, with his teams putting up 31, 24, 26, and 28 points. Again, he wasn't shut down by Belichick.

EDIT: Fifth, Shanahan's 7-4 in the playoffs, not 5-3. You can't win 2 Super Bowls without winning at least 6 games.

 
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I think that some of your claims here are absolutely absurd. And I'm on your side in thinking that the Patriots will win Saturday!First, you've already made an excuse if the Patriots lose, which is weak. Basically, any Patriots loss is not the "true" Patriots losing, right? thumbdown.gif This is the attitude that wrongly gives other Patriots fans a bad name.
No, I'm a realist, and I believe when analyzing a game, you have to acknowledge what it would take from each team to win. I believe the best chance the Broncos will have at beating the Pats is throwing 45 passes against their secondary. And, even that outcome would be different if Rodney Harrison were back there.
Second, Shanahan is one of the great offensive minds in the history of football as well. He coached one of the great passing offenses of our time (1992-1994 49ers) and perhaps the greatest, most consistent rushing offense we've seen in a long time (current stint with the Broncos). This is not Bill Walsh's offense that was developed in Cincinnati with Paul Brown with "a couple of new twists".
No, but it certainly is very similar to the West Coast offense he learned from Walsh in San Fran. To be the biggest difference is that he stretches the field more. He throws far more 15-20 yard passes where the niners threw 5-10 yarders. He also utilizes straight up power running far more. the line cut blocks on every play to minimize back side pursuit. Those are the two main wrinkles I see. I didn't state it, but I think Shanahan has done as good a job as any coach at using the passing game to set up the run. His record stands for itself. But, outside of the 2 SB runs, his offense has been completely taken away against playoff level competition. The missing link from those 2 SB runs that wont show up on Saturday? John Elway.
Third, in their biggest-stakes head-to-head meeting, the Broncos beat the Jets 23-10 in the 1998 AFC Championship game, and while Belichick held Denver in check for the 1st half of that game, Shanahan got the better of him. Belichick was the one who didn't make the in-game adjustments, and when Shanahan did the Broncos ripped the Jets.Fourth, in the Brady era, Shanahan's 3-1 head-to-head against Belichick, with his teams putting up 31, 24, 26, and 28 points. Again, he wasn't shut down by Belichick.
Ripped? Twenty three points at home is ripping somebody? I think it's a pretty average output, exacerbated by Jet turnovers in Jet territory. I've tried to find a link to stats for that game, but couldn't. I think the bigger issue in that game was the inability of the Jets to score, or even move the ball. But, point taken. In that matchup the Broncos did win. Regular season games? Yes, in the regular season Shanny is 3-1 against BB. All early season games. Drop this year, and it's 2-1. In those years the Pats have 3 rings. My point here is that the Pats always play their best football in December and January. The Broncos have played their best ball early of late, and that's when the Pats have been catching them. This year was no different.Edit to add
EDIT: Fifth, Shanahan's 7-4 in the playoffs, not 5-3. You can't win 2 Super Bowls without winning at least 6 games.
You are right. I didn't count either SB, and forgot that home loss when they came off a bye and J'vill came to town.
 
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No, I'm a realist, and I believe when analyzing a game, you have to acknowledge what it would take from each team to win.  I believe the best chance the Broncos will have at beating the Pats is throwing 45 passes against their secondary.  And, even that outcome would be different if Rodney Harrison were back there.
It reads above like you're already making an excuse, but if that's not what was intended, fair enough.
No, but it certainly is very similar to the West Coast offense he learned from Walsh in San Fran.  To be the biggest difference is that he stretches the field more.  He throws far more 15-20 yard passes where the niners threw 5-10 yarders.  He also utilizes straight up power running far more.  the line cut blocks on every play to minimize back side pursuit.  Those are the two main wrinkles I see.

I didn't state it, but I think Shanahan has done as good a job as any coach at using the passing game to set up the run.  His record stands for itself.  But, outside of the 2 SB runs, his offense has been completely taken away against playoff level competition.  The missing link from those 2 SB runs that wont show up on Saturday?  John Elway.
The system may not be substantially different, but the play-calling, week-to-week adjustments, and results speak for themselves.The 49ers had their best offensive stretch in their history with Shanahan calling the plays.

The Broncos set team records for points scored in each of Shanahan's first 4 seasons as head coach.

You don't need to draw up crazy schemes a la Mike Martz if what you have is effective. Shanahan's been to 9 AFC/NFC title games and 6 Super Bowls in his coaching career. If you don't think those results are indicative of an all-time great offensive mind, I guess we just disagree.

Also, the Elway card is overplayed. As many have said on this board, Elway has exactly 0 playoff wins without Shanahan on his sideline. The two of them were perfect together. Like Walsh and Montana, Bradshaw and Noll, heck, even Brady and Belichick (I don't think BB's 1-1 playoff record in 1994 is all that spectacular).

Ripped?  Twenty three points at home is ripping somebody?  I think it's a pretty average output, exacerbated by Jet turnovers in Jet territory.  I've tried to find a link to stats for that game, but couldn't.  I think the bigger issue in that game was the inability of the Jets to score, or even move the ball.  But, point taken.  In that matchup the Broncos did win.  Regular season games?  Yes, in the regular season Shanny is 3-1 against  BB.  All early season games.  Drop this year, and it's 2-1.  In those years the Pats have 3 rings.  My point here is that the Pats always play their best football in December and January.  The Broncos have played their best ball early of late, and that's when the Pats have been catching them.  This year was no different.
The Jets led 10-0 in the 3rd quarter before giving up 20 straight before the quarter ended. If you saw the game (which I still do from time to time, as it's one of my favorites as a Bronco fan), Denver looked completely lost in the 1st half but scored on 4 straight possessions in the 3rd to put it away. Yes, in that quick timespan, the Broncos "ripped" the Jets. The Denver defense forced turnovers as they had in all big games -- much like the recent Patriots teams.I completely agree that in recent the Broncos tend to peak early and the Patriots late. Remember that I'm picking the Patriots to win.

I simply don't think Belichick has a huge coaching edge over Shanahan in any regard ... he may be slightly better, he may not, but the fact is that right now he has "his Elway" for this game and that's why I think the Patriots will win. Brady, for my money, is the #1 player in this league and him against any other QB, outside of maybe Manning and Palmer, is probably a mismatch.

 
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Shanahan was the head coach in Oakland during the Broncos 1988 Superbowl run! He was fired by Davis in Oak in 1989 after starting 1-4. I'm not sure if he hired on right away with Denver or not but Denver didn't go to the superbowl that year anyway. They went again in 1990.
Why do people correct other people without checking their facts first?These are the 3 1980s Broncos Super Bowl losing teams:

1986

1987

1989

Mike Shanahan's coaching history

Shanahan was OC of the Broncos in 1986 and 1987. When he was HC of the

Raiders in 1988, the Bengals went to the Super Bowl. After 4 games in 1989, Shanahan was fired by the Raiders and came back to the Broncos.
I did look it up, but I see where the mistake came in. The 1988 run was actually the 1987/88 season. You were right I just interpeted it wrong! He was the QB coach that year! I knew he came back but couldn't remember if it was after he got fired or the following season.Superbowl History

Football Super Bowl Winners

Year Winner Opponent Score Location

XXIV 1990 San Francisco 49ers Denver Broncos 55-10 New Orleans, LA

XXIII 1989 San Francisco 49ers Cincinnati Bengals 20-16 Miami, FL

XXII 1988 Washington Redskins Denver Broncos 42-10 San Diego, CA

XXI 1987 New York Giants Denver Broncos 39-20 Pasadena, CA

Edited to add, I wasn't trying to argue the point of Elway made Shanahan. I think they made each other. Shanahan got to work with another great qb in SF. Both QBs flurished with his scheme.

 
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Shanahan was the head coach in Oakland during the Broncos 1988 Superbowl run! He was fired by Davis in Oak in 1989 after starting 1-4. I'm not sure if he hired on right away with Denver or not but Denver didn't go to the superbowl that year anyway. They went again in 1990.
Why do people correct other people without checking their facts first?These are the 3 1980s Broncos Super Bowl losing teams:

1986

1987

1989

Mike Shanahan's coaching history

Shanahan was OC of the Broncos in 1986 and 1987. When he was HC of the

Raiders in 1988, the Bengals went to the Super Bowl. After 4 games in 1989, Shanahan was fired by the Raiders and came back to the Broncos.
I did look it up, but I see where the mistake came in. The 1988 run was actually the 1987/88 season. You were right I just interpeted it wrong! He was the QB coach that year! I knew he came back but couldn't remember if it was after he got fired or the following season.Superbowl History

Football Super Bowl Winners

Year Winner Opponent Score Location

XXIV 1990 San Francisco 49ers Denver Broncos 55-10 New Orleans, LA

XXIII 1989 San Francisco 49ers Cincinnati Bengals 20-16 Miami, FL

XXII 1988 Washington Redskins Denver Broncos 42-10 San Diego, CA

XXI 1987 New York Giants Denver Broncos 39-20 Pasadena, CA

Edited to add, I wasn't trying to argue the point of Elway made Shanahan. I think they made each other. Shanahan got to work with another great qb in SF. Both QBs flurished with his scheme.
Ah, I see now. That's an easy mistake to make, no worries! :)
 
Out of curiosity, why is this? Seems pretty weak to call someone out after the fact if you don't weigh in beforehand.

For the record, it says clearly in the original post that despite my being a huge Denver fan, I'm actually picking the Patriots to win the game.

If they win, though, I don't think it'll be because Belichick has outclassed Shanahan in gameplanning. The mismatch isn't Belichick vs. Shanahan, which IMO is a draw. It's Brady vs. Plummer (as good as he's been this year).
The mismatch is Brady vs. Plummer? I never knew that Darrent Williams' injury was so bad that Jake Plummer got switched to our nickle CB spot. Unless you mean that the Broncos are going to snag Ahmen Plummer away from the San Francisco 49ers.Silly me. Here I thought the matchups would be Brady/Branch/Givens vs. Bailey/Williams/Foxworth and Plummer/Smith/Lelie vs. Samuel/Hobbs/Brown (or does Poteat play the nickle? I don't even know who the Patriots have as their #3 CB anymore...). Brady may be a better QB than Plummer, but Bailey/Williams/Foxworth are CERTAINLY better DBs than Samuel/Hobbs/Brown.
No matter what any NE homer says, Bailey/Williams/Foxworth have played better than the Patriots' equivalents this year. But I'm just saying that if there is a mismatch in this game, it's Brady vs. Plummer since Brady has more big-game experience and has beaten arguably better teams than this Bronco squad, although never on the road.I don't mean by this that it's an overwhelming advantage or anything like that. I'm surprised you feel the need to argue this point ....
I'm arguing the point because it's asinine to say that there's a matchup between the 2 QBs. It'd be like saying the second biggest matchup is Trevor Pryce vs. Richard Seymour, and the third biggest will be Mike Anderson vs. Corey Dillon.Those players will never face their counterparts on the field of football- therefore, they WILL NOT BE MATCHED UP AGAINST EACH OTHER. Not once, during the entire game. The respective matchups will instead be:

Brady vs. Bailey/Williams/Foxworth

Plummer vs. Samual/Hobbs/Brown

Pryce vs. Ashworth

Seymour vs. Matt Lepsis

Mike Anderson vs. Bruschi/Vrabel

Corey Dillon vs. Al Wilson

Now, you might think that Brady is better than Plummer (and I don't disagree in the slightest), but Brady will never face off against Plummer. Not once. Brady will face off against Bailey/Williams/Foxworth, who are better than the guys that Plummer will face off against.

It'd be like saying that Carolina will win because Delhomme wins the matchup against Grossman.

 
I'm arguing the point because it's asinine to say that there's a matchup between the 2 QBs. It'd be like saying the second biggest matchup is Trevor Pryce vs. Richard Seymour, and the third biggest will be Mike Anderson vs. Corey Dillon.

Those players will never face their counterparts on the field of football- therefore, they WILL NOT BE MATCHED UP AGAINST EACH OTHER. Not once, during the entire game. The respective matchups will instead be:

Brady vs. Bailey/Williams/Foxworth

Plummer vs. Samual/Hobbs/Brown

Pryce vs. Ashworth

Seymour vs. Matt Lepsis

Mike Anderson vs. Bruschi/Vrabel

Corey Dillon vs. Al Wilson

Now, you might think that Brady is better than Plummer (and I don't disagree in the slightest), but Brady will never face off against Plummer. Not once. Brady will face off against Bailey/Williams/Foxworth, who are better than the guys that Plummer will face off against.

It'd be like saying that Carolina will win because Delhomme wins the matchup against Grossman.
When people talk about the "matchup" of Brady vs. Plummer, it's implicit that they're really talking about:{Brady vs. Denver D} vs. {Plummer vs. New England D}

Perhaps it's a writing convention that isn't entirely accurate, but maybe you should focus less on the semantics and more on the main point. I mean, geez, do you think you've actually given anyone new information in your post?

 
How many NFL coaches won Superbowls or NFL championships with the same team and different quarterbacks in the modern era? We'll call the modern era everything from 1950 onward...no leather helmets or single wing or Canton Bulldogs or Oorang Indians considered here...fair enough?Answer...three. Only Weeb Ewbank, Joe Gibbs and George Siefert among Superbowl/NFL championship winning coaches have won with more than one quarterback. Siefert was blessed with Joe Montana and Steve Young...two HOF quarterbacks. Ewbank won two NFL titles with Johnny Unitas and a Superbowl with Joe Namath...two more HOF QB's...though he gets an asterisk since he won with two different teams, not one. Gibbs won with 3 different guys, none of them spectacular...a truly outstanding achievement that stands alone in the modern era. A look at what some of the best coaches in NFL history did without their superstar quarterbacks...1. Paul Brown won 3 NFL championships and finished 2nd 4 times. He won all his titles with Otto Graham and went to 3 of the 4 title games he lost with Graham as well...but never won a title without Graham.2. Tom Landry coached 29 years and won 2 Superbowls with Roger Stauback and failed with Don Merideth (2 NFL championship game losses), Craig Morton (1 Superbowl loss) and Danny White (3 losses in NFC conference championship games).3. Vince Lombardi coached 9 years and won 2 Superbowls and 3 NFL championships...all with Bart Starr.4. Don Shula coached 26 years with the Dolphins and went to 3 Superbowls with Bob Griese, winning 2 and losing 1...and also failing with David Woodley and Dan Marino in two other Superbowls. He also coached an additional 7 years with the Colts and failed twice with the legendary Johnny Unitas and Earl Morrall, losing a Superbowl with Morall and an NFL championship game with Unitas.5. Bill Walsh won 3 Superbowls in 10 years...all with Joe Montana.6. Chuck Noll won 4 Superbowls with Terry Bradshaw, and coached 9 more years after Bradshaw left without winning another title while going 2-4 in the playoffs.7. Hank Stram won an NFL championship and went to 2 Superbowls, winning 1 and losing 1...all with Len Dawson. Stram retired the year before Dawson finally lost his starting job and he also retired.8. John Madden won a Superbowl for the Raiders with Ken Stabler and Tom Flores won 2 with Jim Plunkett but neither won a title with anyone else.9. Jimmy Johnson won all 3 of his Superbowls with Troy Aikman and failed with Marino in Miami.10. The Patriots Bill Belichick failed with Drew Bledsoe before finding Tom Brady and has won all 3 of his Superbowls with him.11. Bill Parcells won 2 Superbowls with Phil Simms but failed with both Drew Bledsoe and Vinny Testeverde in New England and New York.12. Mike Shanahan has 2 Superbowl titles with Elway, and if he fails to win another Superbowl he will join Paul Brown, Vince Lombardi, Don Shula, Tom Landry, Chuck Noll, Hank Stram, Bill Walsh, John Madden, Tom Flores, Jimmy Johnson, Bill Parcells, Bill Belichick and a few other guys who won titles with a great QB and didn't with anyone else.

 
Hypothetically speaking, how many SB's would Shannahan won if Elway hadn't retired? How many SB's would Shannahan won if Plummer replaced Elway and not Griese?How many SB's would Belichick have won if Bledsoe didn't get hurt?If we can't answer these questions, we can't answer who is a better coach, until at the end of the day, their entire body of coaching work can be evaluated. Both are still a work in progress.All we know is that they have both won back-to-back SB's. We have seen Shannahan re-tool his team after his QB retired, we haven't seen Belichick do the same.

 
9. Jimmy Johnson won all 3 of his Superbowls with Troy Aikman and failed with Marino in Miami.
Johnson only won 2 Super Bowls. Barry Switzer coached the team that won it all in '95. I am not ready to give Johnson all of the credit for that win, unless you want to do the same for Bill Walsh and the 49ers Super Bowl season without him in '89. And so on and so forth.
 
9. Jimmy Johnson won all 3 of his Superbowls with Troy Aikman and failed with Marino in Miami.
Johnson only won 2 Super Bowls. Barry Switzer coached the team that won it all in '95. I am not ready to give Johnson all of the credit for that win, unless you want to do the same for Bill Walsh and the 49ers Super Bowl season without him in '89. And so on and so forth.
Sorry simple typo.
 
How many NFL coaches won Superbowls or NFL championships with the same team and different quarterbacks in the modern era?

We'll call the modern era everything from 1950 onward...no leather helmets or single wing or Canton Bulldogs or Oorang Indians considered here...fair enough?

Answer...three. Only Weeb Ewbank, Joe Gibbs and George Siefert among Superbowl/NFL championship winning coaches have won with more than one quarterback. Siefert was blessed with Joe Montana and Steve Young...two HOF quarterbacks. Ewbank won two NFL titles with Johnny Unitas and a Superbowl with Joe Namath...two more HOF QB's...though he gets an asterisk since he won with two different teams, not one. Gibbs won with 3 different guys, none of them spectacular...a truly outstanding achievement that stands alone in the modern era. A look at what some of the best coaches in NFL history did without their superstar quarterbacks...

1. Paul Brown won 3 NFL championships and finished 2nd 4 times. He won all his titles with Otto Graham and went to 3 of the 4 title games he lost with Graham as well...but never won a title without Graham.

2. Tom Landry coached 29 years and won 2 Superbowls with Roger Stauback and failed with Don Merideth (2 NFL championship game losses), Craig Morton (1 Superbowl loss) and Danny White (3 losses in NFC conference championship games).

3. Vince Lombardi coached 9 years and won 2 Superbowls and 3 NFL championships...all with Bart Starr.

4. Don Shula coached 26 years with the Dolphins and went to 3 Superbowls with Bob Griese, winning 2 and losing 1...and also failing with David Woodley and Dan Marino in two other Superbowls. He also coached an additional 7 years with the Colts and failed twice with the legendary Johnny Unitas and Earl Morrall, losing a Superbowl with Morall and an NFL championship game with Unitas.

5. Bill Walsh won 3 Superbowls in 10 years...all with Joe Montana.

6. Chuck Noll won 4 Superbowls with Terry Bradshaw, and coached 9 more years after Bradshaw left without winning another title while going 2-4 in the playoffs.

7. Hank Stram won an NFL championship and went to 2 Superbowls, winning 1 and losing 1...all with Len Dawson. Stram retired the year before Dawson finally lost his starting job and he also retired.

8. John Madden won a Superbowl for the Raiders with Ken Stabler and Tom Flores won 2 with Jim Plunkett but neither won a title with anyone else.

9. Jimmy Johnson won all 3 of his Superbowls with Troy Aikman and failed with Marino in Miami.

10. The Patriots Bill Belichick failed with Drew Bledsoe before finding Tom Brady and has won all 3 of his Superbowls with him.

11. Bill Parcells won 2 Superbowls with Phil Simms but failed with both Drew Bledsoe and Vinny Testeverde in New England and New York.

12. Mike Shanahan has 2 Superbowl titles with Elway, and if he fails to win another Superbowl he will join Paul Brown, Vince Lombardi, Don Shula, Tom Landry, Chuck Noll, Hank Stram, Bill Walsh, John Madden, Tom Flores, Jimmy Johnson, Bill Parcells, Bill Belichick and a few other guys who won titles with a great QB and didn't with anyone else.
Wow. Quite simply WOW. That is some seriously fascinating information that I never would have suspected.
 

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