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Are we all sleeping on Jon Kitna? (1 Viewer)

David Yudkin

David Yudkin

Footballguy
Jon Kitna is the odds on favorite to be the starting QB this year in Detroit by a far margin. His ADP is QB27. FBG staff have him ranked as the QB26. FBG projections have him as QB22.

Now let's look what Mike Martz has done with complete nobides at QB.

TRENT GREEN

An 8th round draft pick, Green played for 6 seasons in the NFL with a grand total of ONE passing attempt. In his first year as a starter in Washington, he ranked as the #7 fantasy QB.

He and Martz wound up in St, Louis, and although he got hurt, he averaged 312 passing yards and 2.5 TD per game in limited time as a starter (6 games). That was a pace for 5,000 yards and 40 TD which seems like an insane total until we look at . . .

KURT WARNER

Warner was an undrafted stock clerk turned arena QB that became a 2-time NFL MVP. His first year starting he had 4300/41 and ranked as the #1 fantasy QB.

MARC BULGER

Bulger was an unheralded 6th round draft pick that took over for Warner mid season and averaged 302 yards and 2.33 TD in his 6 starts as a rookie. In his first full year he ranked as the #6 fantasy QB.

So why would Kitna do any worse than these guys? Fair question. Let's review.

1) The WR corps on Detroit is not what the Rams have had.

This could be true, but Martz hasn't exactly failed in developing WR either. He was around when Isaac Bruce went from 21-272-3 to 119-1781-13. We all know how Holt has done, but we've also seen many 1st round WR that bombed. Overall, the STL WR corps over the years was probably better than the crop in Detroit, but we may find that it is not leaps and bounds better.

2) The OL was better in STL.

That one is hard to prove but likely true. The Rams had resident Pro Bowler Orlando Pace, and the best option in Detroit would be former Pro Bolwer Damien Woody. Again, the Rams OL was likely a fair bit better than Detorit's.

3) The Rams had Marshall Faulk. That's probably the biggest difference between the Rams and Lions. It remains to be seen if Kevin Jones can be a real threat. He's shown some flashes but has not been able to stay healthy and productive at the same time.

4) The Rams defense normally was mediocre.

Well, the Lions D has not exactly been on par with the Bears or Steelers.

5) The Rams on a whole were far better talent and motivational wise.

This one also is likely true, and the question becomes can the Lions show up to want to play. If they do, Kitnas will be a gift for those that draft him.

IMO, Kitna may not be a Top 5 QB but he will rank closer to the Top 5 than the #26QB.

 
I think the answer is yes.

People point to the playoff game last year as proof that he doesn't have it anymore. What they fail to mention is that he spent the entire year on the bench, so a little rust was to be expected, not to mention that it was the middle of a playoff game.

In a down year for QBs in general, IMO, I think Kitna makes a good later round pick which allows you to solidify depth at your other positions.

 
He's a quality veteran QB with some good weapons and likely to be in an attractive system. He's going 23 picks later than Charlie Frye, that's crazy talk. I think he's a great play this year, particularly in a drafting QBs late type of scenario, which I think is wise this season especially. Take a shotgun style approach with three guys like Brooks, Kitna, and Simms. One of them is very likely to be at least serviceable, and any one has the potential to sneak into the top 10. Best case a couple of them have terrific seasons and you have some trade bait.

 
Preaching to the choir here. I picked him up to backup Culpepper in the SSL. Unfortunately, they have the same bye week, so I was forced to burn another pick on Pennington, but I did that knowingly, I was that high on Kitna's potential to produce this year as opposed to the other QBs that were going around that time (Grossman, Simms, etc.)

 
So the Martz legacy is to get your chosen QB injured and then produce good/great numbers with #2.

Maybe we are all sleeping on Josh McCown....

 
Jon Kitna is the odds on favorite to be the starting QB this year in Detroit by a far margin. His ADP is QB27. FBG staff have him ranked as the QB26. FBG projections have him as QB22.

can the Lions show up to want to play. If they do, Kitnas will be a gift for those that draft him.

IMO, Kitna may not be a Top 5 QB but he will rank closer to the Top 5 than the #26QB.

SHHHH !! :hot:
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I think the big difference between Kitna and all of those QBs if nobody knew what those QBs could do when Martz put them under the helm. People have seen Kitna played and he atleast hasnt impessed me much,

 
1) The WR corps on Detroit is not what the Rams have had.

This could be true, but Martz hasn't exactly failed in developing WR either. He was around when Isaac Bruce went from 21-272-3 to 119-1781-13. We all know how Holt has done, but we've also seen many 1st round WR that bombed. Overall, the STL WR corps over the years was probably better than the crop in Detroit, but we may find that it is not leaps and bounds better.

2) The OL was better in STL.

That one is hard to prove but likely true. The Rams had resident Pro Bowler Orlando Pace, and the best option in Detroit would be former Pro Bolwer Damien Woody. Again, the Rams OL was likely a fair bit better than Detorit's.

3) The Rams had Marshall Faulk. That's probably the biggest difference between the Rams and Lions. It remains to be seen if Kevin Jones can be a real threat. He's shown some flashes but has not been able to stay healthy and productive at the same time.

4) The Rams defense normally was mediocre.

Well, the Lions D has not exactly been on par with the Bears or Steelers.

5) The Rams on a whole were far better talent and motivational wise.

This one also is likely true, and the question becomes can the Lions show up to want to play. If they do, Kitnas will be a gift for those that draft him.
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6) Kitna doesn't have the arm to accurately complete the deeper patterns in the Martz offense (18 yard outs, square-ins, deep crosses, etc)
 
he's a no-brainer @ 26th QB.

once the hype starts pushing him up the rankings, i'm not so sure.

if the Lions were to implode this season, it wouldn't exactly be the first time that happened.

 
6) Kitna doesn't have the arm to accurately complete the deeper patterns in the Martz offense (18 yard outs, square-ins, deep crosses, etc)

I don't know about that. The last time I saw him throwing in Cincy ( a while back) he looked pretty darn good...

 
I think another point here is that Kitna unlike Bulger, Warner and Green is not unhearlded. This is a guy that is only two years removed from being close to a Pro Bowl quarterback.

I think another people fail to see is this guy was the ultimate professional stepping down after a really great breakout season for a rookie QB with no experience. How many quarterbacks would be willing to do that with out making a stink about it.

I hope Kitna does well in Detroit...cause the way the guy conducting himself in Cinci, with total class....he deserves to succeed.

 
Jon Kitna is the odds on favorite to be the starting QB this year in Detroit by a far margin.  His ADP is QB27.  FBG staff have him ranked as the QB26.  FBG projections have him as QB22.

Now let's look what Mike Martz has done with complete nobides at QB.

TRENT GREEN

An 8th round draft pick, Green played for 6 seasons in the NFL with a grand total of ONE passing attempt.  In his first year as a starter in Washington, he ranked as the #7 fantasy QB.

He and Martz wound up in St, Louis, and although he got hurt, he averaged 312 passing yards and 2.5 TD per game in limited time as a starter (6 games).  That was a pace for 5,000 yards and 40 TD which seems like an insane total until we look at . . .

KURT WARNER

Warner was an undrafted stock clerk turned arena QB that became a 2-time NFL MVP.  His first year starting he had 4300/41 and ranked as the #1 fantasy QB.

MARC BULGER

Bulger was an unheralded 6th round draft pick that took over for Warner mid season and averaged 302 yards and 2.33 TD in his 6 starts as a rookie.  In his first full year he ranked as the #6 fantasy QB.

So why would Kitna do any worse than these guys?  Fair question.  Let's review.

1) The WR corps on Detroit is not what the Rams have had.

This could be true, but Martz hasn't exactly failed in developing WR either.  He was around when Isaac Bruce went from 21-272-3 to 119-1781-13.  We all know how Holt has done, but we've also seen many 1st round WR that bombed.  Overall, the STL WR corps over the years was probably better than the crop in Detroit, but we may find that it is not leaps and bounds better.

2) The OL was better in STL. 

That one is hard to prove but likely true.  The Rams had resident Pro Bowler Orlando Pace, and the best option in Detroit would be former Pro Bolwer Damien Woody.  Again, the Rams OL was likely a fair bit better than Detorit's.

3) The Rams had Marshall Faulk.  That's probably the biggest difference between the Rams and Lions.  It remains to be seen if Kevin Jones can be a real threat.  He's shown some flashes but has not been able to stay healthy and productive at the same time.

4) The Rams defense normally was mediocre.

Well, the Lions D has not exactly been on par with the Bears or Steelers.

5) The Rams on a whole were far better talent and motivational wise.

This one also is likely true, and the question becomes can the Lions show up to want to play.  If they do, Kitnas will be a gift for those that draft him.

IMO, Kitna may not be a Top 5 QB but he will rank closer to the Top 5 than the #26QB.
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David, Im not familiar with Martz prior to 1998 when he turned Trent Green into a QB.

What capacity did he serve with the Rams in 95?

NM, found my own answer:

From 1992 to 1996, he was a tight ends, receivers, and quarterbacks coach for the Los Angeles Rams.
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The problem I have with Kitna is that he doesn't have a live arm and has overall mediocre skills. There is not much zip on his passes and he does not throw a great deep ball. This limits what Martz can design offensively around him.

Unlike Green, Warner, and Bulger (who were relative unknowns when they got their chance with Martz), we already know what Kitna brings to the party. He's a solid but not spectacular backup QB. There is not much more upside for his game.

I'm more interested to see if Martz can develop McCown or Orlovsky, both of whom possess superior raw talent to Kitna.

 
From my FBG QB Rankings critique:

UNDERRATED

3)  Jon Kitna #25

Let’s take a look at Jon’s last two years as an NFL starter:

                +---------------------------------------+-----------------+                 |              Passing                  |     Rushing     |+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+| Year  TM |   G |  Comp   Att   PCT    YD   Y/A  TD INT |  Att  Yards  TD |+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+| 2002 cin |  14 |   294   473  62.2  3178   6.7  16  16 |    24    57   4 || 2003 cin |  16 |   324   520  62.3  3591   6.9  26  15 |    38   113   0 |+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+Not too shabby heh?Last year’s #25 QB had 2000 passing yards and 12 TDs…Kitna will have this by game 12 with any luck.  For the last three years under Martz the Rams offense passed for over 4000 yards.  One can come up with a lot of excuses as to why Kitna will not be a top 20 QB, but when you’re looking at the possible upside that Detroit’s situation offers, Kitna is worth significantly more to me than the #25 QB off the board. 

Staff With Highest Ranking:  Mike Brown #8    :pickle:  

Staff with Lowest Ranking:  Bloom #34, Rudnick/Norton/Hicks #28

LHUCKS Ranking:  #18
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The problem I have with Kitna is that he doesn't have a live arm and has overall mediocre skills. There is not much zip on his passes and he does not throw a great deep ball. This limits what Martz can design offensively around him.
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The type of post above is the exact reason why I'm able to find value at most positions...people getting caught up in the physical ability of the athlete and subsequently not properly accounting for the entire situation.Arm strength is one of the last things I look at when determining fantasy success...if I even consider it at all.

 
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i've taken him in just about every survivor i've done so far. nice potential, real low risk where you can get him.

 
The problem I have with Kitna is that he doesn't have a live arm and has overall mediocre skills. There is not much zip on his passes and he does not throw a great deep ball. This limits what Martz can design offensively around him.

Unlike Green, Warner, and Bulger (who were relative unknowns when they got their chance with Martz), we already know what Kitna brings to the party. He's a solid but not spectacular backup QB. There is not much more upside for his game.

I'm more interested to see if Martz can develop McCown or Orlovsky, both of whom possess superior raw talent to Kitna.
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Green, Warner nor Bulger have "live arms". They are accurate passers but by no means have big arms. They are accurate passers. Bulger finished last in the long distance throw, and Green was next to last (I believe this was two yrs ago on ESPN). Have you seen Bulger play? He's all about great timing and accuracy, never about having a live arm. The same can be said for Warner and Green.Kitna, IMO, has a bigger arm than any of the three qbs mentioned. But that's not what he needs to be successful, he needs to be accurate.

 
The problem I have with Kitna is that he doesn't have a live arm and has overall mediocre skills. There is not much zip on his passes and he does not throw a great deep ball. This limits what Martz can design offensively around him.
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The type of post above is the exact reason why I'm able to find value at most positions...people getting caught up in the physical ability of the athlete and subsequently not properly accounting for the entire situation.Arm strength is one of the last things I look at when determining fantasy success...if I even consider it at all.
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It's not just arm strength. He's lacking in several areas. Maybe Martz will be able to get him to play above himself. But personally I don't think Kitna is much more talented than Jeff Garcia. And I don't think he will be the starting QB for the entire season.
 
The problem I have with Kitna is that he doesn't have a live arm and has overall mediocre skills. There is not much zip on his passes and he does not throw a great deep ball. This limits what Martz can design offensively around him.
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The type of post above is the exact reason why I'm able to find value at most positions...people getting caught up in the physical ability of the athlete and subsequently not properly accounting for the entire situation.Arm strength is one of the last things I look at when determining fantasy success...if I even consider it at all.
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It's not just arm strength. He's lacking in several areas. Maybe Martz will be able to get him to play above himself. But personally I don't think Kitna is much more talented than Jeff Garcia. And I don't think he will be the starting QB for the entire season.
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Garcia in his prime was a Pro-Bowler...or are you talking about '05 Garcia? Additionally nobody really knows if Kitna's skill have deteriorated since being benched in favor of Palmer. Do you think he sucked as the starter in Cincy, if so how do you explain his relatively impressive numbers?
 
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Kitna probably is under-rated, but don't underestimate the importance of the line play here. Martz doesn't really believe in protecting the QB with RBs/TEs (to the same extent as other NFL teams)--so that leaves most of the pressure on the o-line to give the QB time to throw. Detroit doesn't have the same quality line, so that weakness will expose the flaws in Martz' system and force them to better protect the QB or let him just get killed.

 
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The problem I have with Kitna is that he doesn't have a live arm and has overall mediocre skills. There is not much zip on his passes and he does not throw a great deep ball. This limits what Martz can design offensively around him.
Click to expand...
The type of post above is the exact reason why I'm able to find value at most positions...people getting caught up in the physical ability of the athlete and subsequently not properly accounting for the entire situation.Arm strength is one of the last things I look at when determining fantasy success...if I even consider it at all.
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It's not just arm strength. He's lacking in several areas. Maybe Martz will be able to get him to play above himself. But personally I don't think Kitna is much more talented than Jeff Garcia. And I don't think he will be the starting QB for the entire season.
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Garcia in his prime was a Pro-Bowler...or are you talking about '05 Garcia? Additionally nobody really knows if Kitna's skill have deteriorated since being benched in favor of Palmer. Do you think he sucked as the starter in Cincy, if so how do you explain his relatively impressive numbers?
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I don't think he sucks. But I do believe his skills have deteriorated. Kitna backers will argue that he was rusty in the Steelers playoff game, but several of his throws were very poor. The contrast between Palmer and Kitna could not have been more evident, especially with the velocity on the passes. It reminded me of Jeff Garica's decline a bit, although not quite as bad.
 
i think it is missing the point to say kitna is a known commodity & just not the good, whereas warner & bulger were unknowns...

kitna has never had the opportunity to work with martz before...

conversely, if warner & bulger hadn't come under influence of martz, they might have remained unknowns (don't get me wrong, i like bulger especially better than kitna, but it is hard to overestimate how important the "martz factor" can be to a QB)...

kitna doesn't have a cannon, but i'm not sure green does, either...

as was said, it is hard to judge a QB based on one game when he hasn't gotten starter reps in two years... his last season, he did very well, his skills didn't look deteriorated at that point... the difference with garcia is he continued to play & got beat up... kitna is relatively fresh...

kitna should be best QB roy williams has had, which will help williams fluorish, & in turn could help kitna if roy fulfills his potential... in terms of athletic ability, roy has some similarities to chad johnson, who was a big part of kitna's success in his best season/s in CIN... warner & bulger looked good because they were throwing to torry holt & isaac bruce... good WRs can be a big help to a QB & make them look better...

 
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i'd like to go on record as saying picking up Kitna helped me win a redraft championship a few years back, and he's long been one of my favorite people (I've been partial to the Bengals for a long while),

But seriously, I hear the same crap about how the Lions will be great every year, and every year they fall flat on their faces.

Don't delude yourself with illusions of grandeur from your QB2. Martz and Marinelli are going to be far from a cohesive unit, and I very highly doubt Martz coaches out his contract.

More likely is Martz realizes that in fact the WR corps in Detroit is full of those "1st round busts" (save for Roy Williams, whose potential might already have been stunted though).

I see an implosion this year, and I think that while QB26 is a little low, you're insane if you want to QB1 this guy.

 
While fumbles don't count in fantasy football, they do in the NFL.

Kitna went to the Tony Banks' school for ball control.

15-16 INTs + 20 fumbles can get a guy benched.

 
The problem I have with Kitna is that he doesn't have a live arm and has overall mediocre skills. There is not much zip on his passes and he does not throw a great deep ball. This limits what Martz can design offensively around him.
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The type of post above is the exact reason why I'm able to find value at most positions...people fools getting caught up in the physical ability of the athlete and subsequently not properly accounting for the entire situation.Arm strength is one of the last things I look at when determining fantasy success...if I even consider it at all.
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It's not just arm strength. He's lacking in several areas. Maybe Martz will be able to get him to play above himself. But personally I don't think Kitna is much more talented than Jeff Garcia. And I don't think he will be the starting QB for the entire season.
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I personally feel that Kitna did a great job with a mediocre Cincy offense two years ago. He helped make Chad Johnson the go-to receiver he is today. Johnson obviously has skills, but he also needs someone to get him the ball. Kitna did just that in CJ's rookie year. (Palmer can do that now, thanks to a selfless Kitna.) It amazes me how people forget these things. A wide receiver goes as his QB goes. Do you think Owens benefitted from Garcia's tendencies to find him for TD's after scrambling around for his life? Of course.I don't recall Green, Warner or Bulger doing too much long ball throwing in Martz's offense. It seems to be all about timing, deception and a solid running game. Holt and Bruce were often getting mucho YAC stats due to simple dump-offs over the middle or crossing patterns. Long TD's seemed to come mostly from the talented running abilities (after the catch) of both Holt and Bruce. Arm strength is never a consideration in my book. It is the system and the talent of the QB to learn, adapt and utilize what he is given to work with wthin that system that makes him valuable to me.

I believe that Kitna is probably a better skilled player overall than Garcia, but that is really a moot point. Garcia has no chance of playing this year, sans injury to McNabb.

Kitna, on the other hand, has the opportunity to start the year as the #1QB with a new team, a new OC in Martz and a great offensive system that may or may not prevail this first year. Obviously Martz is having some issues with the learning curves involved for first year students in his system. He may have to dumb it down a bit at first. I'm hearing that Kitna gets it and is on a fast track to mastering it. (Seems to be the consensus here at FBG's...no?)

I would love to grab Kitna as my back-up to Peyton, but I am not sure he will slide to the point where he is most valuable to me. I think a top 15 ranking is not so absurd. :P :P

Rody

 
i'd like to go on record as saying picking up Kitna helped me win a redraft championship a few years back, and he's long been one of my favorite people (I've been partial to the Bengals for a long while),

But seriously, I hear the same crap about how the Lions will be great every year, and every year they fall flat on their faces.

Don't delude yourself with illusions of grandeur from your QB2. Martz and Marinelli are going to be far from a cohesive unit, and I very highly doubt Martz coaches out his contract.

More likely is Martz realizes that in fact the WR corps in Detroit is full of those "1st round busts" (save for Roy Williams, whose potential might already have been stunted though).

I see an implosion this year, and I think that while QB26 is a little low, you're insane if you want to QB1 this guy.
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i think the point is you don't need to get him as QB1 if his ADP is around mid-twenties...should we give up on martz before he has even had one game, because the lions underachieved with OCs other than martz?

& if martz doesn't fulfill duration of contract, that may not be a factor in 2006? more like in 2007 or later...martz is strongly motivated to take care of business in DET so he can land another HC gig... if he leaves prematurely, he may have to kiss that hope goodbye...

 
kitna helped me win a championship a few years back, but i think these ADP rankings are right on or A BIT HIGH for one reason ... there is a SIGNIFICANT possibility he won't make it through the season.

word is the front office and "others" (according to Pat Kirwan) is that McCown has just as much ability with more upside. Kitna has been named the starter, but at first chance McCown will get his chance.

also ... it's been said McCown made a large effort to study Kurt Warner and really pick his brain. Of course everyone knows Warner's relationship (former) with Martz.

i'm leaving Kitna alone. McCown is on my roster.

-orphan

 
My biggest problem with Kitna (Bengals homer) is that when called upon to make a play, the guy could never do it. He gets frazzled under that kind of pressure. His poise goes to crap and he throws a pick.

But, over the course of the year, I expect he will certainly produce in the QB ~20 range, but people thinking 5 - 10 are hung up in the Martz hype. Detroit will still most likely be a bad to average (at best team) next year which will leave the Lions playing from behind, which will allow Kitna to pile up some stats, but do not look for the TD to INT ratio to be impressive enough to move him past QB 15 as his highest upside.

However, based on current rankings, he certainly presents very good value.

Oh, and regarding arm strength, it's not very good. IMO, arm strength is not how far you can throw the ball, but (the ultimate test of arm strength) can you throw the 20 yard out pattern to the wide side of the field. Kinta cannot make that throw and throwing the 20 yard out to the short side will have you holding your breath.

 
kitna helped me win a championship a few years back, but i think these ADP rankings are right on or A BIT HIGH for one reason ... there is a SIGNIFICANT possibility he won't make it through the season.

word is the front office and "others" (according to Pat Kirwan) is that McCown has just as much ability with more upside. Kitna has been named the starter, but at first chance McCown will get his chance.

also ... it's been said McCown made a large effort to study Kurt Warner and really pick his brain. Of course everyone knows Warner's relationship (former) with Martz.

i'm leaving Kitna alone. McCown is on my roster.

-orphan
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not sure if that is old information... everything lately points to kitna being the starter, because he has grasped the martz system better, & mccown has been slow on the learning curve (picking warner's brain may not have helped him much)...
 
kitna helped me win a championship a few years back, but i think these ADP rankings are right on or A BIT HIGH for one reason ... there is a SIGNIFICANT possibility he won't make it through the season.

word is the front office and "others" (according to Pat Kirwan) is that McCown has just as much ability with more upside.  Kitna has been named the starter, but at first chance McCown will get his chance.

also ... it's been said McCown made a large effort to study Kurt Warner and really pick his brain.  Of course everyone knows Warner's relationship (former) with Martz.

i'm leaving Kitna alone.  McCown is on my roster.

-orphan
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not sure if that is old information... everything lately points to kitna being the starter, because he has grasped the martz system better, & mccown has been slow on the learning curve (picking warner's brain may not have helped him much)...
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Yeah, everything I've heard points to Kitna. I've even read that McCown will have to battle just to be #2. Not sure I believe that one, but Kitna as the starter seems fairly certain.
 
kitna is the starter right now. and the information i heard seems fairly reliable and not much of it has gotten too old. just FYI, but it seems logical that McCown would be someone that Detroit would want to rely upon.

-orphan

 
Kitna probably is under-rated, but don't underestimate the importance of the line play here. Martz doesn't really believe in protecting the QB with RBs/TEs (to the same extent as other NFL teams)--so that leaves most of the pressure on the o-line to give the QB time to throw. Detroit doesn't have the same quality line, so that weakness will expose the flaws in Martz' system and force them to better protect the QB or let him just get killed.
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Exactly - the O-line is what it's all about. We all know that the STL offense, as run in both STL and KC, has long-developing deep pass plays, and that does not max protect for these plays. The knock on Martz is that he doesn't seem to mind letting his QB get nailed. Perhaps that's because he feels he can succeed with any QB. Note that this philosophy is not much different from Denny Green, another coach famous for long-developing pass plays and a revolving door at QB.The other side of this is that in addition to a terrific line, you need an RB who is a threat as both a runner and a receiver. This system won't work, imho, with a guy who is just an outlet at RB rather than a threat in his own right. That's why I'm down on Kitna. I don't think the Lions will be able to sustain drives with outlet passes to Kevin Jones. I just don't see him doing what Faulk and Holmes were able to do, and I think Steven Jackson's lesser pass-catching skills have simliarly held back the STL offense last year.

We will see. My fear with Kitna is not only the personnell in DET, it's also the fact that McCown lurks behind him. The kids is much closer to the kind of physical package that Martz is looking for, with his bigger arm and better mobility. I don't doubt that Kitna was brought in for his leadership skills as much as anything else, but I don't get fantasy points for leadership skills in my league.

 
hey orphan,

i know how it is, we all remember things that it isn't always easy to later provide references... for example, i didn't for mine... :) but that said, i'll look through blogger (you can sort by team) & google news is also good source for latest, to see what i can turn up...

the only reason i asked, is i had read stuff like that, too, but that was a little while ago, & lately i haven't heard a peep in that direction... almost everything points to kitna being the guy...

warner is semi-old, so i am wondering if denny green thought mccown was a special talent he didn't make a strong effort to retain him (he had already been allowed to walk BEFORE they got leinart, & couldn't have any way to know with certainty he would fall that far... though they admittedly may have had an idea)...

kitna at his best has probably accomplished more than mccown (he has had more time to, so maybe unfair comparison... but the fact remains), so i guess the basis you might think it logical mccown could get gig is he has more upside due to being younger... i don't know if owner has a mandate to go to playoffs this year (except for CHI, which seems like favorite, they seem to have as much talent as anybody else in division), but marinelli may want to go with guy who gives him best chance to win & look good in first season (it was said a reason marinelli didn't take leinart over sims, aside from him being defense guy, is that he experienced winning super bowl with gruden and castoff brad johnson, probably causing him to deemphasize importance of great talent at QB, & emphasizing experience... kitna fits this profile better than mccown... & millen would probably like to win or at least be competitive (which they haven't really been since... millen was hired :) )

kitna signed a four year contract (not that he will necessarily see it to the end) & i think mccown signed a two year contract... it is very possible that neither of these guys is long term answer (unless kitna has a renaissance-type season due to martz)... very possible these guys are "bridge" QBs, & they draft somebody or acquire QB in FA in a season or two...

charles robinson of yahoo a few weeks ago reported that orlovsky was the guy that had caught martz's attention... not that he was expected to start, but that he has a chance to supplant mccown as the #2 behind kitna...

it was a little confusing for me to be talking about timely info... there have only been few mini-camp installations... ANYTHING that could have happened as far as slotting QBs would have been lately... just the very latest has kitna thought to be pretty clearly in the lead... reports saying mccown was on equal footing preceded that by a little bit, in my recollection (& may not still be as relevant)...

 
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My fear with Kitna is not only the personnell in DET, it's also the fact that McCown lurks behind him. The kids is much closer to the kind of physical package that Martz is looking for.
Click to expand...
Green 6'3", 217Warner 6'2", 222Bulger 6'1", 215Kitna 6'2" 225McCown 6'4" 213Orlovsky 6'5" 225Not sure that size has much to do with this.
 
My fear with Kitna is not only the personnell in DET, it's also the fact that McCown lurks behind him. The kids is much closer to the kind of physical package that Martz is looking for.
Click to expand...
Green 6'3", 217Warner 6'2", 222

Bulger 6'1", 215

Kitna 6'2" 225

McCown 6'4" 213

Orlovsky 6'5" 225

Not sure that size has much to do with this.
Click to expand...
I specifically mentioned his arm-strength and mobility as the components of his physical package, not his overall height and weight. You quoted me a little out of context.Also, I usually discard all the size-and-weight information, because I don't think it's accurate. Short guys somehow get taller, fat guys somehow get skinnier, and on mnay sites, listings don't change from year to year.

 
bob,

no doubt about ??? regarding timely info with just a few "voluntary" camps. i heard Pat Kirwan talking about this today 6.19 and he seemed like it was timely ... so that's about all i have on that.

as far as the contract years, i don't know if any of that matters too much. i like Kitna. i rooted for Kitna prior to Carson Palmer. something here just doesn't seem right, and even annointing him the "starter" doesn't seem right.

-orphan

 
My fear with Kitna is not only the personnell in DET, it's also the fact that McCown lurks behind him. The kids is much closer to the kind of physical package that Martz is looking for.
Click to expand...
Green 6'3", 217Warner 6'2", 222

Bulger 6'1", 215

Kitna 6'2" 225

McCown 6'4" 213

Orlovsky 6'5" 225

Not sure that size has much to do with this.
Click to expand...
I specifically mentioned his arm-strength and mobility as the components of his physical package, not his overall height and weight. You quoted me a little out of context.Also, I usually discard all the size-and-weight information, because I don't think it's accurate. Short guys somehow get taller, fat guys somehow get skinnier, and on mnay sites, listings don't change from year to year.
Click to expand...
Technically speaking, size and height are physical traits. IMO, arm strength and mobility are skills. I thought you were concerned that Kitna was not tall or heavy enough in addition to the mobity/arm strength concerns.Also, I'm not sure if the other Martz QBs that were drafted late (or not at all) would grade out better than Kitna (or else they would have been drafted a heck of a lot sooner than they were).

 
bob,

no doubt about ??? regarding timely info with just a few "voluntary" camps. i heard Pat Kirwan talking about this today 6.19 and he seemed like it was timely ... so that's about all i have on that.

as far as the contract years, i don't know if any of that matters too much. i like Kitna. i rooted for Kitna prior to Carson Palmer. something here just doesn't seem right, and even annointing him the "starter" doesn't seem right.

-orphan
Click to expand...
thanx orphan, i appreciate the clarification on the timing... yes, i would say today would fall into the category of current & timely info... :)

should be an interesting training camp & pre-season in DET...

just hope martz doesn't go krakatoa in 2006...

 
kitna is the starter right now. and the information i heard seems fairly reliable and not much of it has gotten too old. just FYI, but it seems logical that McCown would be someone that Detroit would want to rely upon.
Click to expand...
it does? why?
 
kitna doesn't have a cannon, but i'm not sure green does, either...
Click to expand...
:no: Green does not have a cannon, far from it. He'll occasionally lob a deep pass, but his arm strength is probably his weak attribute. His accuracy is better than Kitna's though. Leadership is as well, although Kitna isn't exactly sheepish.Of course, I'm waiting for Orlovsky to get the job. ;)

 
I think Orphan made the shark post of the thread here....

... keep an eye out for McCown. I'm so out there I forgot he was even on the roster.

 
[jinx]I took Kitna as my QB2 behind Peyton in the 14th round. He was the 19th QB taken overall in a startup keep 3 league. I have this feeling that he is going to put up decent numbers this year and hope he only sees my lineup for Peytons week 6 bye against BUF and can put up some decent numbers.[/jinx][reversejinx]

 
I think Orphan made the shark post of the thread here....

... keep an eye out for McCown. I'm so out there I forgot he was even on the roster.
Click to expand...
appreciatedit reminds me a little of the year Delhomme went to Carolina. Rodney Peete had a pretty decent previous year and Delhomme was the back-up in N.O. There was this buzz around his name but Peete was still the starter and nobody really talked about Delhomme starting much. Looking back on that it is easy to see that Delhomme came in and they had faith in him and wanted him to succeed and were going to give him the opportunity.

that's what i see in Detroit. although Bob pointed out that McCown only got a 2 year contract which is a slight wrench, or it means they are going to see what they've got in him sooner rather than later ????

-orphan

 
My fear with Kitna is not only the personnell in DET, it's also the fact that McCown lurks behind him. The kids is much closer to the kind of physical package that Martz is looking for.
Click to expand...
Green 6'3", 217Warner 6'2", 222

Bulger 6'1", 215

Kitna 6'2" 225

McCown 6'4" 213

Orlovsky 6'5" 225

Not sure that size has much to do with this.
Click to expand...
I specifically mentioned his arm-strength and mobility as the components of his physical package, not his overall height and weight. You quoted me a little out of context.Also, I usually discard all the size-and-weight information, because I don't think it's accurate. Short guys somehow get taller, fat guys somehow get skinnier, and on mnay sites, listings don't change from year to year.
Click to expand...
Technically speaking, size and height are physical traits. IMO, arm strength and mobility are skills. I thought you were concerned that Kitna was not tall or heavy enough in addition to the mobity/arm strength concerns.Also, I'm not sure if the other Martz QBs that were drafted late (or not at all) would grade out better than Kitna (or else they would have been drafted a heck of a lot sooner than they were).
Click to expand...
Grading out is hardly the concern - anyone with eyes can see that Kurt Warner has very good arm strength, and Jon Kitna does not. My question is the fit of the player to his system.
 
I think Kitna will stay the starter. I think Detroit is going to value experience over athleticism after not having Harrington work out. With such young WR's the experience Kitna has over McCown should make the offense more productive. Gotta like that Detroit will likely be playing from behind alot. I expect some high yardage games, -1 for ints will hurt though.

 
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