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Who Killed the Electric Car? (1 Viewer)

Otis

Footballguy
I didn't like this as much as An Inconvenient Truth, but it was an interesting look at similar issues. Wondering if others have thoughts.

After watching both of these flicks, my next car will be a Japanese-made hybrid, and I will never again buy a GM product (unless they change their tune). If we all did the same, the country would be better off.

Everyone should see both of these movies.

And, for the record, Otis is the furthest thing there is from a tree-hugging lib.

:tinfoilhat:

 
These two flicks just aren't readily available down here in Red State country, but I'm looking forward to seeing them one day on Netflix.

 
These two flicks just aren't readily available down here in Red State country, but I'm looking forward to seeing them one day on Netflix.
An Inconvenient Truth is awesome. A real eye-opener. By the end of the movie, and in view of all that has happened in the past few years, it had me wishing I had voted for Gore over GWB.
 
When I first head about the film I was interested, but after finding out more details about the car's limited capabilities I realized I wouldn't/couldn't buy one.

Also, there are reasons the GM wanted to remove the cars from the road that I don't think are detailed in the film. I haven't seen the film yet, so I'm hardly an expert on the subject. Specifically, car companies are forced to make replacement parts available for all the cars they produce. There were so few of these cars on the road being used that keeping replacement parts available was ridiculously expensive for GM. On top of this no one wanted to buy the cars because they really have limited use in relation to the cost.

We have to have a car that will allow us to travel longer distances. I can't afford a second car that I'll use just for shorter commutes.

 
From GM: Who Ignored the Facts About the Electric Car?

From the Blog:

Lastly, because the movie made some harsh criticisms of GM for discontinuing the EV1, let me set the record straight:

* GM spent more than $1 billion developing the EV1 including significant sums on marketing and incentives to develop a mass market for it.

* Only 800 vehicles were leased during a four-year period.

* No other major automotive manufacturer is producing a pure electric vehicle for use on public roads and highways.

* A waiting list of 5,000 only generated 50 people willing to follow through to a lease.

* Because of low demand for the EV1, parts suppliers quit making replacement parts making future repair and safety of the vehicles difficult to nearly impossible.

 
With current technology electric cars are simply not viable. The charging time is the real killer, people do not want to have to wait that long.

Hybrids are not the answer either, in reality they don't get that much better mileage than a desiel engine.

 
My brother worked on the EV1 project so I got to drive one of them, it was pretty cool, like driving a souped up golf cart, but the charge time was a killer.

 
More on this "Documentary"

Who Really Killed the Electric Car?

(Cross-posted on American Automobile Fuel Consumption Debate)

I promised to write something more than just a rant about who really killed the electric car. I had not read Mark Rechtin's review in Automotive News before I saw the movie (see readers responce here). I think that Rechtin makes a good point that instead of engaging in conspiracy theories, the filmmakers could have done a much better job of bringing out the complex technical, economic and social aspect of automobile purchase, and use. A similar, but slightly more angrier sounding take comes from MotorAlley.

I agree with Rechtin and Wasserman on many points. The acquittal of batteries in the movie is quite surprising. The batteries used in EV1 were not up for the job a regular that is expected of an internal combustion engine powered car. It is true that battery technology continues to improve, but even the current Ni-MH batteries would not lead to a satisfactory vehicle performance. Could the next generation of Li-Ion batteries do the job? Possible, but not yet certain since there are a number of cost and safety issues involved.

It is not unvcommon to find a small but highly motivated group of individuals who are supporting a cause such as the group portrayed in the movie. It should be noted, however, that a mere expression of interest by 4000 people in the state of California does not mean that there was a real market for EV1. Most Americans demand not only acceleration and fuel economy, but a number of other vehicle attributes such as interior and luggague space, safety, increasingly automatic and electronic features that consume more power, reliability, convenience and yes, least I should forget, low initial cost of purchase. Neither the EV1, nor other EVs in the movie fit that bill well.

The movie was quite critical of Alan Lloyd and California Air resources Board (CARB) in general. In the end, we should all remember that it was CARB which effectively mandated EVs with its Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) rule. As the movie notes, CARB got the idea after seeing a GM demonstration vehicle at an auto show. If CARB is to be blamed, then the blame should lie with the original ZEV ruling which was too optimistic in its estimate of development of electric vehicle technology. Even with the compromise with automakers, the ZEV rule has not been a complete failure. It can be very easily argued that the development of hybrid vehicles by Honda and Toyota would not have been as quick had the ZEV rule not been in place. In short, the CARB was at least partly successful in its technology forcing goal.

Of course, I have noted far too often that the hybrid vehicles, even after being on the market for several years, currently account for less than 1.5% of new vehicle sales. Even with the kind of buzz that hybrids have generated, there are several skeptics. Quite simply, they make a strong argument that even at 3 dollar a gallon of gasoline, the hydrid vehicles just barely make economic sense for a consumer with lower than average discount rate. The fact is that mainstream vehicle technology keeps getting better, and it is hard for newer technologies to break in to the market.

All this being said, my gripe with a movie like Who Killed the Electric Car? lies in the fact that they perpetrate the myth that somehow we are going to solve our energy, and specially oil, problems by means of technology alone. If we are to get serious about challenging the ever increasing petroleum consumption and greenhouse gas emissions, not only will we need better technology, but we will need a change in behavior and strong fiscal and regulatory policy measures that will induce the change. Too often our attention is foucsed on having our cake and eating it too. It is time to stop living in the wonderland.

And More

Who Killed The Electric Car?

The Consumer killed it. Not George. Not Big Oil. Not Greed. No one cared except CARB and a few hundred consumers that bought the GM EV-1 and Ford Ecostar and Ford Ranger EV (the latter two purchased by fleets).

Saw the preview...I will admit I haven't seen the movie. If the movie follows along the lines of the video, as an acquaintance used to say, "if it's not Scottish, it's crap!" Frankly, for those of us who worked on the EVs, and saw consumer reaction, this crap enrages me.

As some know, I worked on Electric Cars. For 5 years. 1991-1996. Hopeless. Problems:

Where do I start?

Not enough range (50-60 miles/day)...worse in cold weather states and with AC running

Not enough charging stations for slow charging (120 v/40 amp plugs) at work places to charge in 12-24 hours

Not enough charging stations for fast charge (240 V or higher) to charge in 1-4 hours

Batteries were expensive (Thousands of dollars requiring replacement every 2-3 years)

Vehicles were very expensive. If sold based on true cost, $30,000 or more each. And that didn't include the battery replacements every 3 years (Minimum $3,000-$7,000). In 1996 dollars, not 2006 dollars.

Not enough energy/power in most applications and duty cycles. EVs are great 1 or 2 person haulers/commuters in traffic going 50 mph. Or short haul light delivery. Terrible if you're moving lots of people (families) or going distances in stop/go with drains on load (AC, heat, etc.)

Consumers hate changing behavior...we don't buy cars based on need...we buy them based on want. We loaned EVs to consumers and found that it freaked people out to know that they could get stranded if they didn't charge regularly. I did several trips this Sunday...total of 40 miles in 2 hours with AC running. Various errands. Not in an EV if at 40 miles you realize, damn, I might not make it home. Take a look at the best selling Accord and Camry. 200 hp with lots of electronic gadgetry and convenience that suck power.

Very, very limited market - movie stars and people with an axe to grind (Nader and various other people who don't mind living an impractical lifestyle). Limited market means low volume which means high cost. You can't build safe cars inexpensively at low volume. Ever notice how low volume cars typically cost $50k and up? Cost of tooling and assembly can't be spread over large production.

Can't make money selling EVs. In a capitalist market, companies have to make a profit or "GM" happens to them. Massive layoffs and shrinking market share. Out of 17 million new cars and trucks to be sold this year...how many hybrids? Quick, quick!! Less than 1% The only one selling well is the Prius. The rest have incentives.

The EV1 is/was a 2 seater. Anyone know how many 2 seaters are sold in America in high volume? That's right...zero. The Corvette is the best seller. Why? Two seaters ARE NOT PRACTICAL for ANYBODY. It's a toy/fun car.

Better solutions?

Many...yes, many. Conservation is about changing lifestyle and/or making other alternatives more appealing emotionally and financially. We could cut our energy consumption in half if people commuted on bikes. Said this a long time ago in this blog. Lots of people laugh. We solve several problems

Obesity...Americans are gargantuan beasts.

Energy reduction...short trips pollute the most and use the most gas

Potential for reduction in traffic deaths. Bike on bike accidents rarely result in airbag deployment and twisted wreckage. I'll admit...Car on bike is a different story.

So, Dubya, get moving. Let's get some bike lanes approved and tax credits for riding a bike to work. Let's get tax credits for showers installed at work. Even better, all of us idiots paying for health club memberships? Buy a bike and invest in a shower at work. Leave the car at the office for "important" business meetings. And a change of clothes.

And puuuuhhhhhllleeeeaze. Enough with the idiotic electric car initiatives. A 30 Kw battery, that gets 70 miles range and weighs about 800 lbs has about as much energy as a gallon or two of gasoline that weighs 7-15 lbs. Our Ford Ecostar had a 75 horsepower motor. There are no cars sold in the US with less than 150 hp these days. Do you understand the problem now?

More later...when I calm myself.

 
Fair points above, and many of the above-mentioned GM responses were expressed in the movie.

Regarding batteries, the technology has apparently greatly improved such that range was extended to beyond 100 miles/charge. I'll bet that most Americans live well within a 50 mile daily commute to work.

Regarding hybrids, apparently the Japanese hybrids are getting substantially increased mileage these days.

 
Regarding batteries, the technology has apparently greatly improved such that range was extended to beyond 100 miles/charge. I'll bet that most Americans live well within a 50 mile daily commute to work.
I don't disagree with that, but I would say almost all Americans can't afford to purchase two cars. Who wants to restrict ALL of their driving to a 50 mile radius?
 
Regarding batteries, the technology has apparently greatly improved such that range was extended to beyond 100 miles/charge. I'll bet that most Americans live well within a 50 mile daily commute to work.
I don't disagree with that, but I would say almost all Americans can't afford to purchase two cars. Who wants to restrict ALL of their driving to a 50 mile radius?
I think the market would be the suburban 2-car soccer-mom family...I doubt many single people would be able to get a strictly electric car. Although a plug-in hybrid solves the distance issue pretty well and could be someone's only vehicle.
 
Has anyone seen this?

I saw the dude on the Daily Show, how do account for the fact that all the electric cars are in Arizona being crushed??

Maybe there is a car that runs on water??

:bag:

 
gmplan to see this maybe as soon as later today, will report back
I was surprised at how little I know about the electric car (to be quite honest I never knew they'd been produced and sold in California). This movie did a pretty good job of blaming everybody for the death of the electric car. If I followed correctly GM put a successful (in terms of efficiency and reliability) electric car on the road to comply with a mandate set by the state of California, then the California Air Resources Board killed the mandate because of an interest in a hydrogen fuel cell powered car, so GM took back each and every EV1 it sold and destroyed them all (still not really sure why they did this). One thing though, I can't see a reason not to get a hybrid (or maybe an electric car if they are back on the market when I am ready to purchase my next car). That brings up a question, what's the status on the electric car, is there a company out there that is trying to get these back out on the road?
 
gmplan to see this maybe as soon as later today, will report back
I was surprised at how little I know about the electric car (to be quite honest I never knew they'd been produced and sold in California). This movie did a pretty good job of blaming everybody for the death of the electric car. If I followed correctly GM put a successful (in terms of efficiency and reliability) electric car on the road to comply with a mandate set by the state of California, then the California Air Resources Board killed the mandate because of an interest in a hydrogen fuel cell powered car, so GM took back each and every EV1 it sold and destroyed them all (still not really sure why they did this). One thing though, I can't see a reason not to get a hybrid (or maybe an electric car if they are back on the market when I am ready to purchase my next car). That brings up a question, what's the status on the electric car, is there a company out there that is trying to get these back out on the road?
Haven't seen the movie, but one thing still bothers me: Even if GM 'killed' the electric car, why hasn't someone else revived it?
 
Even if GM 'killed' the electric car, why hasn't someone else revived it?
exactly, and it's something they didn't really touch on. GM's reasoning for taking the car out of production was that there wasn't a demand for it. We'll see what kind of demand this movie sparks and see if that changes anything.
 
gmplan to see this maybe as soon as later today, will report back
I was surprised at how little I know about the electric car (to be quite honest I never knew they'd been produced and sold in California). This movie did a pretty good job of blaming everybody for the death of the electric car. If I followed correctly GM put a successful (in terms of efficiency and reliability) electric car on the road to comply with a mandate set by the state of California, then the California Air Resources Board killed the mandate because of an interest in a hydrogen fuel cell powered car, so GM took back each and every EV1 it sold and destroyed them all (still not really sure why they did this). One thing though, I can't see a reason not to get a hybrid (or maybe an electric car if they are back on the market when I am ready to purchase my next car). That brings up a question, what's the status on the electric car, is there a company out there that is trying to get these back out on the road?
Haven't seen the movie, but one thing still bothers me: Even if GM 'killed' the electric car, why hasn't someone else revived it?
The interview with the writer/director said the reason is that no one knows about the electric car. Most people think electric car = 30 mph top speed. Dude said the cars GM destroyed could do 0-60 in seven seconds. Not to shabby.Basically, it was one of the best non-advertised urban-myth blendings in our history, or so dude says.
 
One of the problems witht the electric car, so I've heard, is that they run on batteries. That in of itself isn't a problem but the actual disposal would be.

 
Very nice!!

Electric Car

This is quote from the article, very interesting:

Tesla Motors got $60 Million to put these on the road and they got it from the Google guys, Larry Page and Sergey Brin, along with executives from eBay and PayPal.
 
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i'm guessing that there is too much money to be made with our countries traditional cars/fuel model to get the car manufacturers to produce alternative fuel/electric cars

we've been reading about things changing in 10-15 years for about 10-15 years now. if somebody would have told you in 1991 what our cars and fuel would be like in 2006 would you have believed them? it's basically the same...what's really changed?

 
after reading this thread in the morning i became more interested in seeing the film...just got back from it

well done film with a very interesting story to tell. most of my preconceived notions of electric cars were off and although the cars are not perfect it is certainly better than what we are currently being sold by the major auto manufacturers. to nobody's surprise, GM takes it on the chin fairly hard in the film

the one area that i was blistfully ignorant: the future of hygrogen fuel cells. i have been under the impression that this was the 'next wave of technology' and that it would be widely available at some point in the future. maybe it will be, but the film makes it seem like another pipe dream that is being floated out there never to be delivered

worth a watch for those interested :thumbup:

 
GM takes it on the chin fairly hard in the film
seemed kind of unfair actually, they were the best at making a car that they didn't want any part of but were required to make, then the requirement was lifted, so they ceased making the car they didn't want to make in the first place.Coming away from this movie I get the impression that the C.A.R.B. should have been the one to get the most scrutiny. Maybe the writer couldn't get the necessary info to really blast them?
 
Otis took a beating in this thread for liking the flick and buying into the hype. The thread contains some good counterpoints (though I still ultimately buy into the filmmaker's views).

 
When I first head about the film I was interested, but after finding out more details about the car's limited capabilities I realized I wouldn't/couldn't buy one.
I don't think the car's capabilities are as limited as GM would have you believe. That's the whole point of the movie.And given the progress in battery technology in the past few years, the electric car is only that much more capable.
 
At the end of the movie they said they have a battery capable of going 300 miles on one charge. If that's not enough for your daily commute...

I can't remember the last time I drove 300 miles in a single day.

One thing I initially forgot was how they mentioned that Jimmy Carter took great strides towards making this country greener and even had solar panels installed on the roof of the white house. One of the first things Ronald Reagan did after assuming control of the house was to have the panels removed.

wtf? :loco:

 
At the end of the movie they said they have a battery capable of going 300 miles on one charge. If that's not enough for your daily commute... I can't remember the last time I drove 300 miles in a single day. One thing I initially forgot was how they mentioned that Jimmy Carter took great strides towards making this country greener and even had solar panels installed on the roof of the white house. One of the first things Ronald Reagan did after assuming control of the house was to have the panels removed.wtf? :loco:
This confused me too.
 
When I first head about the film I was interested, but after finding out more details about the car's limited capabilities I realized I wouldn't/couldn't buy one.Also, there are reasons the GM wanted to remove the cars from the road that I don't think are detailed in the film. I haven't seen the film yet, so I'm hardly an expert on the subject. Specifically, car companies are forced to make replacement parts available for all the cars they produce. There were so few of these cars on the road being used that keeping replacement parts available was ridiculously expensive for GM. On top of this no one wanted to buy the cars because they really have limited use in relation to the cost.We have to have a car that will allow us to travel longer distances. I can't afford a second car that I'll use just for shorter commutes.
This is one of the holdbacks for fuel cell techology. Until they can build a tank that will hold enough fuel to go 300+ miles on one tank then a majority of people won't be interested. They also have to make sure there enough fill up stations to make it convenient. GM is making a huge investment in fuel cells so I don't buy for a second that there was a conspiracy to kill the electric car.
 
At the end of the movie they said they have a battery capable of going 300 miles on one charge. If that's not enough for your daily commute... I can't remember the last time I drove 300 miles in a single day. One thing I initially forgot was how they mentioned that Jimmy Carter took great strides towards making this country greener and even had solar panels installed on the roof of the white house. One of the first things Ronald Reagan did after assuming control of the house was to have the panels removed.wtf? :loco:
100 miles might be enough for in town driving, but have you ever driven cross-country? Good luck finding a place to charge up when crossing Utah and Colorado.
 
after reading this thread in the morning i became more interested in seeing the film...just got back from itwell done film with a very interesting story to tell. most of my preconceived notions of electric cars were off and although the cars are not perfect it is certainly better than what we are currently being sold by the major auto manufacturers. to nobody's surprise, GM takes it on the chin fairly hard in the filmthe one area that i was blistfully ignorant: the future of hygrogen fuel cells. i have been under the impression that this was the 'next wave of technology' and that it would be widely available at some point in the future. maybe it will be, but the film makes it seem like another pipe dream that is being floated out there never to be deliveredworth a watch for those interested :thumbup:
Fuel cells have a much better chance of making it than electric cars since it's a fuel similar to gasoline that doesn't take long to fill up. Like I said in my previous post, the two major hold ups for getting them in production are the size of the fuel tanks and distribution. I personally think it's a much better techology than electric cars.
 
gmplan to see this maybe as soon as later today, will report back
I was surprised at how little I know about the electric car (to be quite honest I never knew they'd been produced and sold in California). This movie did a pretty good job of blaming everybody for the death of the electric car. If I followed correctly GM put a successful (in terms of efficiency and reliability) electric car on the road to comply with a mandate set by the state of California, then the California Air Resources Board killed the mandate because of an interest in a hydrogen fuel cell powered car, so GM took back each and every EV1 it sold and destroyed them all (still not really sure why they did this). One thing though, I can't see a reason not to get a hybrid (or maybe an electric car if they are back on the market when I am ready to purchase my next car). That brings up a question, what's the status on the electric car, is there a company out there that is trying to get these back out on the road?
Haven't seen the movie, but one thing still bothers me: Even if GM 'killed' the electric car, why hasn't someone else revived it?
Because they are pro-American?
 
gm

plan to see this maybe as soon as later today, will report back
I was surprised at how little I know about the electric car (to be quite honest I never knew they'd been produced and sold in California). This movie did a pretty good job of blaming everybody for the death of the electric car. If I followed correctly GM put a successful (in terms of efficiency and reliability) electric car on the road to comply with a mandate set by the state of California, then the California Air Resources Board killed the mandate because of an interest in a hydrogen fuel cell powered car, so GM took back each and every EV1 it sold and destroyed them all (still not really sure why they did this).

One thing though, I can't see a reason not to get a hybrid (or maybe an electric car if they are back on the market when I am ready to purchase my next car). That brings up a question, what's the status on the electric car, is there a company out there that is trying to get these back out on the road?
This is what I don't get about the movie's theme - we have electric cars today and they are called hybrids. Power was a big issue with electric cars and that was partially solved with including a small gasoline engine to boost HP.
 
At the end of the movie they said they have a battery capable of going 300 miles on one charge. If that's not enough for your daily commute... I can't remember the last time I drove 300 miles in a single day. One thing I initially forgot was how they mentioned that Jimmy Carter took great strides towards making this country greener and even had solar panels installed on the roof of the white house. One of the first things Ronald Reagan did after assuming control of the house was to have the panels removed.wtf? :loco:
100 miles might be enough for in town driving, but have you ever driven cross-country? Good luck finding a place to charge up when crossing Utah and Colorado.
I considered this and figured it's a cinch. If you are traveling for pleasure you rent a car, if you are moving just hitch it to the back of a U-Haul. If you want to drive 600 miles round trip to go to a football game or something then I don't know what the solution is, but I'll bet somebody will think of one. I don't buy in to the charging station idea, don't batteries typically charge very slowly?
 
At the end of the movie they said they have a battery capable of going 300 miles on one charge. If that's not enough for your daily commute... I can't remember the last time I drove 300 miles in a single day. One thing I initially forgot was how they mentioned that Jimmy Carter took great strides towards making this country greener and even had solar panels installed on the roof of the white house. One of the first things Ronald Reagan did after assuming control of the house was to have the panels removed.wtf? :loco:
100 miles might be enough for in town driving, but have you ever driven cross-country? Good luck finding a place to charge up when crossing Utah and Colorado.
I considered this and figured it's a cinch. If you are traveling for pleasure you rent a car, if you are moving just hitch it to the back of a U-Haul. If you want to drive 600 miles round trip to go to a football game or something then I don't know what the solution is, but I'll bet somebody will think of one. I don't buy in to the charging station idea, don't batteries typically charge very slowly?
I pointed out in a previous post that one of the drawbacks of electric cars is that even if you find a charging station it takes a long time to recharge. When people buy cars they want one that will do everything and not force them to rent a car whenever they go out of town. For some people who don't travel by car much it's not a problem, but it could be expensive for people who do.Here's what I consider to be the holy grail of cars:1) Fuel - can use a renewable resource or at least be created from resources we have, like coal.2) Refueling - needs to be available everywhere and take the time time to fill up as gas does.3) Distance - should be comparable to distance on a gas 4) Fuel Economy - enough to offset the additional cost of the technology. 5) Power - be able to generate at least 150hp to drive on highways without a problem.All of those are possible with fuel cells.
 
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Otis took a beating in this thread for liking the flick and buying into the hype. The thread contains some good counterpoints (though I still ultimately buy into the filmmaker's views).
Dude, why did you provide a link right back to this same thread? Are you trying to shut down the internet or something?And why have you started referring to yourself in the third person again?

 
100 miles might be enough for in town driving, but have you ever driven cross-country? Good luck finding a place to charge up when crossing Utah and Colorado.
This is a great point, particularly considering my weekly cross-country drives from New York to Los Angeles and back.
 

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